- Location
- Madness realms
OL "Angel! Stop talking, just cut off my hand and go away!"
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
- Status
Ganurath
Literal Enthusiast
- Location
- A Valid Location
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It would be a substantial achievement, certainly. Do recall, though, that human standards for good and angelic standards for good aren't perfectly in line with one another.
Like I said, even if saying sorry to the Lord means automatic conversion, which is iffy, I don't see how switching back to Hellinism after repenting invalidates it.
- Location
- Canada
It wasn't about viability, it was about compromise. For the Baby-eaters, eating babies was a core part of their utility function, something that they valued so much it was a core part of their identity. The Superhappies compromised by modifying all three races to eat babies, gain the benefits of Superhappy-psychic sex (which was their utility function axiom), and also to occassionally feel pain and struggle to learn new things (which they identified as the Human axiom).
The Superhappies basically just mashed cooperate in the prisoner's dilemma, even though they vastly overpowered both sides.
- Location
- Australia
IIRC the human stuff was actually stuff like appreciation of fiction (which the superhappies considered lies) and not suffering (which the superhappies wouldn't tolerate).
HanEmpire
Delicious
It's not an automatic conversion, Paul needs to contort his beliefs and values to the point that he can genuinely repent and ask for forgiveness. Once he gets his mindstate to that point, he'll become a True Believer who won't want to switch back to Hellenism. That's an absolute no-go for Paul, who is both against Abrahamic religions and the risk of Hell.
- Location
- USA
Sigh. It feels like Paul has honestly been trying to work within the rules to try and get along with whatever alien race or group or organization, right up till some line is crossed then he goes all out. Which is completely fine.
But in this case, from the beginning he seems to be almost antagonistic to them. No attempts at negotiation, or any communication at all. Just taking what he wants, which is still fine, if kind of out of character.
But then the angel, which isn't attacking or showing any hostile intentions shows up and just wants to talk, and offers what appears to be a simple way of getting around blatant theft. And he is all "yeah, I did it. Want a hand? Hah, I'm not apologising.".
It's just... so different from how he has been around every other group. It's like he is TRYING to get a hostile reaction.
And he is totally in the wrong here. Heaven did nothing to him but he stole from them. They are being nice about it!
Meh, this arc just has me going "But, why?" To about everything he has done in regards to heaven. Not his reasons just his actions.
Guess we have a good chance at seeing some orange lantern vs angel action, but it just feels so unnecessary.
But in this case, from the beginning he seems to be almost antagonistic to them. No attempts at negotiation, or any communication at all. Just taking what he wants, which is still fine, if kind of out of character.
But then the angel, which isn't attacking or showing any hostile intentions shows up and just wants to talk, and offers what appears to be a simple way of getting around blatant theft. And he is all "yeah, I did it. Want a hand? Hah, I'm not apologising.".
It's just... so different from how he has been around every other group. It's like he is TRYING to get a hostile reaction.
And he is totally in the wrong here. Heaven did nothing to him but he stole from them. They are being nice about it!
Meh, this arc just has me going "But, why?" To about everything he has done in regards to heaven. Not his reasons just his actions.
Guess we have a good chance at seeing some orange lantern vs angel action, but it just feels so unnecessary.
The angel-succubus lovestory from hellblazer seems to indicate that at least some angels are capable of establishing positive relationships with demons.
There's also Michael-Lucifer interaction from Lucifer storyline.
The Bushranger
In the Danger Zone
- Location
- TSAB Asura
As mentioned, it's a case of Black and White Morality meeting Blue and Orange.
Paul can't repent, as (even leaving aside everything else) repentance requires that one accept that one has done wrong. Paul doesn't see that he has done anything he NEEDS to repent for...and since he feels no need to repent, he can't.
Mostly because the way DC establishes things, he can't do otherwise.
Last edited:
Ganurath
Literal Enthusiast
- Location
- A Valid Location
- Pronouns
- He/Him
On the other hand, Flaming Sword Boy kind of flipped out over the possibility of demonic involvement. I think that his behavior is a better predictor of his future actions and opinions than that of other angels.
- Location
- Canada
Holy I don't know why, but this bit just made me burst out laughing. Paul is all ready to cutoff a hand, but say he's sorry? Nah fuck that, I'll burn down the Silver City before you make me repent.
Well, yeah. I mean, he's a guard in the top security installation housing WMDs / Top Secret documents (the analogy for fruits). He detected presence of hostile forces in the installation. Of course he flipped. Now that he knows this wasn't the case, he's much more reasonable.
- Location
- Land of Confusion
Actually, this treads amazingly close, if not right into, blasphemy. Presumably, if God wanted Demons to be able to 'unfall' back into Angels, it would have happened before now.
Then again, the whole ineffable thing makes it really hard to argue whether God 'wants' something or not.
- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
This bothered me when it came up before. OL's assertion that the Garden of Eden is in Iran and the relevant sanction would be Iranian law. The garden can be entered from Iran, Ok. The United Stated can be entered from Canada. That doesn't mean crimes you commit in The US would be prosecuted under Canadian law. The garden is pretty clearly in some cordoned off dimensional pocket that was the territory of the Kingdom of Heaven. And not just claimed, actively inhabited and patrolled. Iran would have had no claim-in-fact there, since the place is self evidently not been taken away from Heaven by Right-of-Conquest. And Iran is a theocracy worshipping the entity controlling the garden, and would probably see someone trying to make the assertion that literal Eden was under Iranian control as a heretic and blasphemer.
Not to say OL hasn't broken Iranian law. If they heard about what exactly he did and believed the tale, they would probably charge OL with whatever law covers using their land as a vector for incursions into other nations, as well as every Border Violation, Importation, and Smuggling Statute they could drum up. But that wouldn't actually legally square him for stealing the fruit from the garden. That would still be under the auspices of whatever authority set the angels to watch over the garden. And again, being a theocracy, would have no problem giving OL over to heaven for judgement. Which would be a perfectly legal thing to do, extradition of a suspect to where the crime took place.
So, OL's 'just take my hand' comes off as Insane Troll Logic, instead of him being a clever rules lawyer.
Mm, no, I don't see how saying "I'm sorry that I had to steal instead of getting the fruit some less confrontational way" and then doing something to smooth ruffled feathers requires being a-okay with eternal suffering.
- Location
- Oblivion
Called it! :lol
Wow did he get lucky, they sent DC's version of Castial.
Really Paul? An Angel gives you an out with the only cavet being you apologize, and your refusing to do it...
I regret I only have one Picard facepalm to give.
Ganurath
Literal Enthusiast
- Location
- A Valid Location
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You're really attached to the idea of that cliffhanger leading into something copacetic and dull, aren't you?
Demons are not fallen angels in this setting; they are natives of Hell, often former mortal souls.
HanEmpire
Delicious
It's not that he'll be okay with going to Hell, but that he might, consciously or not, end up accepting the Abrahamic God as his deity-of-choice as far as his afterlife is concerned. After all to feel sorry about what he did, Paul has to accept God's authority over him and that the rule about taking the Fruit of Knowledge being Forbidden is valid according to his morality.
- Location
- Oblivion
Angels in DC have free will... It's the whole reason they keep falling in Love and or rebelling against Heaven.
Honestly? I think Paul has an intense dislike for Christianity and that colors every action he takes when dealing with things associated with it.
- Location
- Canada
He does that all the time when it's convenient for him, he'll blatantly ignore the spirit behind a rule/law/common sense and act like an automaton running on negative wisdom. Maybe at some point someone will give call him out on it and go "Oh fuck off with that non sense, you know exactly what you're doing and what the issue is!", but I don't really see it happening.
We all do it to some degree, just ignore the issue with our logic cause we want things to go our way.
- Location
- England
As previously noted, he is starving for the knowledge of good and evil.
That's not regretting the sin, that's regretting the consequences of the sin. "I truly regret that people don't like it when I steal their stuff."
- Location
- USA
What?
How does admitting you screwed up change your religion?
"Yeah, I should have talked to you guys first instead of stealing it from you. Maybe we could have worked something out. Sorry."
"1.1 You are christian now."
Bwahh?
- Location
- Oceanside
All of this. It surprised me when people started bagging on Paul for refusing to repent. It would mean conforming his beliefs to Abrahamic beliefs just to change the fact that he doesn't regret his choice, and not only is that already difficult to do for normal people who have already found another set of beliefs, it would also mean converting to a religion that he - and others - have been reasonably and justifiably appalled by.
Yes - in the sense that the punishment itself is a con against the poor. It's also why bail is bullshit.
AFAIK, Iranian law, being part theocracy, is based on theological law?
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
In Deuteronomy the punishment is generally for the thief to pay back a few times the worth of whatever they stole and/or get enslaved. The writers of Deuteronomy did however think it important to have the rule below.
Deuteronomy 25 said:
Last edited:
- Status