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Personally, I'm on Jade's side here, insofar as Paul did try to solve the wrong problem and that, yes, from a rational standpoint Jade should be happy instead of mistrusting, but she's spent her entire life learning that altruism doesn't just happen and that some problems just aren't solvable. She's fighting her own instincts here, and doing it better than I'd have expected given how long she's been abused for.
I disagree very strongly on that one point. Even if her upbringing magnifies her reaction to the issue, it's still an issue. You just can't receive so much from someone, while having done so little for them and be comfortable with it, you'll just look at the relationship (doesn't matter if it's romantic or not), feel like you don't deserve it and ask yourself "why is this person so dedicated to me? It's so weird.", but the fact is that you're not wrong in feeling you don't deserve that kind of devotion, because you don't, what you're receiving has little to do with who you are and much more with how the other party is a hurricane of altruism and you were on you were on its path.

In a way you'll be glad for that, but it'll end up poisoning the relationship because you know for a fact that you're getting isn't cause you're someone worth loving, but all about how the other person felt you needed it and no one likes feeling like a pity case. Plus it'll make it very difficult to refuse when they ask anything from you, because how could you when you owe them so much? And whenever you do or snap at them, you'll feel like shit for the same reason.

All around it creates a toxic relationship that's gonna have a real hard time surviving. It's the whole reason why having a relationship between equals is often so important.
 
and the man to treat it as a problem to be solved, rather than her wanting sympathy
Oh god this....*shiver* My teenage years were filled with girls who wanted a sassy gay friend to yack at. "Well what do you want me to do about it?" "I don't want you to do anything. I just want you to listen." "You annoy me more than any other human on the planet and if your brother didn't have an amazing ass this conversation would never occur."

What's the canon ship for Robin?
Well he was Nightwing at the time, but last I knew? Starfire.

After the eight months they've spent together, it would be rather incongruous for either of them to think that she's too young for him to at least date.
At this risk of being a hypocrite, because I was 15 and he was 35 (and this was just one time sex), yeah...OL is 30 and she's 15. If she were 18 and he was 30 I wouldn't have an issue but....I think it'd be a bad idea.
 
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I too will agree, that a 31 year old dating a 15 year old, is only acceptable to the weird. It is wrong, especially as he's still not told the young girl his age. And when he did so in Renegade, she backed off.

I'm afraid that I don't have the money for giftbaskets, but if you would accept a digital 'thoughts and prayers' version of a giftbasket, then it would contain Arnott's Delicious Creams.

EDIT: I'm aware that 15 year olds don't think it's wrong. I was one too, and my chemistry teacher was hot. But as an adult? No.
 
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I mean look at it in the context of people who are not Paul think, versus what Paul thinks, versus what a therapist would tell you.
Everyone: "OMG, we were in Hell, obviously this means we were foolish even to try, and have to stop immediately."
Paul: "Why are you feeling bad about this, we actually tried to prepare as much as we could. We had several experts in various disciplines, who had no idea this could happen, and tried to be as prepared as we could be if the unexpected occured. We need to figure out how it happened, take steps to prevent it happening again, and keep going."
Therapist: "Blaming yourself for the actions of a demon is not only unhealthy, is sounds like opening yourself up to being manipulated someone who doesn't have your best interests at heart."

Do... do you just not have a working sense of self-preservation??? If you did everything you could to prevent bad things from happening and they happened anyway, what makes you think you can stop it from happening again with the same general course of action? No! Change gears, kill Hell (or at least Satanus), and then do it again if you're still bent on doing it.

All around it creates a toxic relationship that's gonna have a real hard time surviving. It's the whole reason why having a relationship between equals is often so important.

I mean, I said from a rational standpoint. Jade's emotions are definitely valid and important, but that wasn't what I was arguing against at the time.
 
If they reasonably thought that problems could have come from Hell, I've no doubt that their preparations would have been much different. Especially with Satanus in charge of the place. Were I there, I would trust in Pavlovs ability to keep me safe, as far as reasonably practicable, in the event of a Hell incursion.

There may have been Gods there alongside him, as well as specially prepared grounds, exorcists, and anti-hellmagic armour.
 
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So wait, I'm getting my timelines crossed.

I know Gravyen mentioned that he could Danner or Garrick his Jade, but has Paul mentioned the same? Because he kind of skipped over that option here.
I believe so, a long time ago. Something like "If you been a year out of jail without re-offending I'll give you powers"; although he might speed up the delay now between soul sight and her being his girlfriend.

But "wants to avoid giving the Flash's powers to an unreformed ninja assassin" was a reasonable enough concern.
 
If she were 18 and he was 30 I wouldn't have an issue but....I think it'd be a bad idea.
His advice to Beautia re Captain Marvel was, "You'll both be around long enough that it won't be an issue anymore." If Zatanna accepts augmentation, which I expect she would once it's proven not to cause bad interactions with magic use, the same would apply.
 
Maybe. Jade is getting to experience what OL is like up close. It's not quite what he was like from a distance so she's revaluating if it's worth pursuing romantically. I could see her going either way honestly. There are more cons than she could see, but the pros are still pretty hefty.

He scared her and did not listen to her.

Funny how both Grayven and Oh El had communications problems with Jade.

But Grayven was way more understandable since telling Jade in advance what he was gonna do could have ruined his plans.

And then he got mind raped with Anti-Life.
 
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He scared her and did not listen to her.

Funny how both Grayven and Oh El had communications problems with Jade.

But Grayven was way more understandable since telling Jade in advance what he was gonna do could have ruined his plans.

And then he got mind raped with Anti-Life.

I could be easily wrong, but wasn't the core of the whole catastrophe on Ren's side that he outright TOLD her he was an infiltration agent, and offered her an out after,since he genuinely liked her and she wasn't a irredeemable monster like Ra's,
and she spent the entire time between then and him striking deluding herself into thinking "that never happened!", or at best convinced herself that he'd been turned, and she could have her cake (relationship/ a patron/powered ally who wouldn't randomly kill her to work off post-Lazurus psychosis) and eat it (not have to CHANGE/go Legit)-

and when she was forced to confront reality,she threw a tantrum and tried to stab him in the face (granted he DID forget to let her know it was going through NOW)
 
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Undeserved devotion breeds contempt. Generally only a narcissist, could receive that level of 'love' from the get go and be comfortable with it, for the rest it just makes your brain go "Run from this person, something is horribly wrong with this situation!", it evokes the same kind of creepiness that someone would feel if their partner of a week wanted to marry and have babies right now.

Jade is taking things pretty calmly all things considered, if she'd done amazing things for him and/or had been together with him for a long time his behavior would somehow make sense, but as it currently stands it just looks twisted and reeks of desperation (emphasis on it looking that way, not necessarily being the case, but only Paul would know that).

From the reader's perspective yeah. However, from the character's perspective, Paul's visited Jade for the better part of a year at least once a week, first in prison, then by visiting her & her roommates, who were also friends.

That's not a week, that's a couple months to a year depending on your perspective, and until this chapter, the creepiness was only 'first girlfriend creepy', not 'orange light crazy' creepy.
 
His advice to Beautia re Captain Marvel was, "You'll both be around long enough that it won't be an issue anymore." If Zatanna accepts augmentation, which I expect she would once it's proven not to cause bad interactions with magic use, the same would apply.
Aye, but that wouldn't come into play for another five years, or more, and Zoat isnt timeskipping.
 
Aye, but that wouldn't come into play for another five years, or more, and Zoat isnt timeskipping.
Reasonable. Guess she has her work cut out for her, keeping him single that long :D.

I could be easily wrong, but wasn't the core of the whole catastrophe on Ren's side that he outright TOLD her he was an infiltration agent,
Also, he badly underestimated how scared she was when the League of Shadows went down, and so mishandled a volatile situation. If he'd led out with his reasons for turning on the Light (or should that be turning off), instead of being flippant, maybe she'd have listened more. Hard to say.
 
From the reader's perspective yeah. However, from the character's perspective, Paul's visited Jade for the better part of a year at least once a week, first in prison, then by visiting her & her roommates, who were also friends.

That's not a week, that's a couple months to a year depending on your perspective, and until this chapter, the creepiness was only 'first girlfriend creepy', not 'orange light crazy' creepy.
He's known her for that long, he hasn't been involved in a romantic relationship with her for that long. The time in which they were in an actual romance was quite short and during it he showed an absurd amount of devotion and love that you'd expect from someone who's been in romantic relationship for many months/years and which you'd expect to have stemmed from some kind of mutual increase in affection over time. This wasn't that, his degree of devotion toward her was completely out of balance in comparaison to her own, which is something that almost always feel creepy/uncomfortable for the person who's the recipient of that unwarranted devotion.

Anyway, the week thing was just an analogy to explain the feeling, I'm not saying it wasn't literally that, just something that evokes the same emotion.
 
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Yeah, but it's kinda been on that level that whole time. That first night they met? He brought her food, they shared a kiss, she got him high, and took him for a 'ride', and finally, he grappled her tightly, in some powerful bondage, and whispered incredibly dirty 'sweet nothings' into her ear.

Their relationship has been a long time coming.
 
The Sword is even worse. When he first subspaced it to steal it from Sabbac Two, that took about 170% of a ring charge.

In this context (of the raid on the Citadel Complex), he's drawing the blade from a harness. Originally it had subspace the first time, then Zoat corrected it to equipment harness for consistency after someone else commented (after catching up) on the difficulty of using ring power with N-th metal (in relation to transitioning Kon wearing his armor during Titanfall). The drawing of a second N-th metal cutlass didn't get updated at that time.

Since the SI's power armor was made with space for the Sword of the Fallen, I was wondering what reason he might have to design an equipment harness to hold 2 N-th metal cutlasses (in Headhunting). Now he's adding another harness to carry the Aces (anti-demon, anti-order, soon anti-angel). That's a lot of weapons to be carrying around outside of subspace.
 
In this context (of the raid on the Citadel Complex), he's drawing the blade from a harness. Originally it had subspace the first time, then Zoat corrected it to equipment harness for consistency after someone else commented (after catching up) on the difficulty of using ring power with N-th metal (in relation to transitioning Kon wearing his armor during Titanfall). The drawing of a second N-th metal cutlass didn't get updated at that time.

Since the SI's power armor was made with space for the Sword of the Fallen, I was wondering what reason he might have to design an equipment harness to hold 2 N-th metal cutlasses (in Headhunting). Now he's adding another harness to carry the Aces (anti-demon, anti-order, soon anti-angel). That's a lot of weapons to be carrying around outside of subspace.

He might be going full 90s. Does he have pouches too?
 
Alienated (supplementary Renegade option)
Alienated

29th September
07:17 GMT -6


Ms Wor-Ul barely looks up from her weeding as I step off the veranda of her house, a crate containing some of the nicer Kryptonian relics from Amalak's hoard in my right hand. "What do you want?"

I stop on the soil and squint at her tub of weeds. "Why are you doing that?"

"Preserving my cover." Her hands move quick, faster than a Human could with any accuracy. Not super fast, though. "The fields need weeding, I don't want to risk hiring someone else to do it."

She-. How did-? Ah, she's not squatting on the ground, she's floating just off it in a squatting position, moving along as she eliminates the invading plantlife from everywhere within arm's reach. That sort of precise-and-constant-movements-that-she's-not-really-thinking-about flight is pretty hard to do, and I speak from personal experience there.

"And you can't use weed killer because..?"

"Do you have any idea what Earth weed killers do to Kryptonian plants?"

Fair point. Probably. I actually don't know if they do anything…

"Alright, but you could probably get some sort of drone-weeder..?"

She looks up, frowning at me like I've said something particularly stupid. "How could I justify Kirsten Wells affording something like that?"

"Stealth.. drone weeder..?" Yeah, okay. "Anyway, while I was out going to and fro across the universe and walking up and down on it-."

"Spare me. I get enough bible quotes from the locals."

"I picked up a few things that might interest you." I hold the case out slightly in her direction.

"Why, did you go to Krypton?" She stands, peeling off her weeding gloves as she does so. "If that's a crate full of glowing rocks I'm not exactly going to be impressed."

"Ms Wor-Ul, I have no desire at all to harm you. I came across some artefacts of Kryptonian origin and you were the first person I thought of."

She frowns as she walks towards me. "And not the boy scout or your friends Kon-El and Match? Interesting choice."

"You're the only Kryptonian I know who's actually from Krypton." I crouch as she reaches me, laying the case on the ground in front of me. "Of course, if you don't want it I imagine that Kal-El will be only too happy to take it off my hands."

"Alright." She crouches down in front of the case and opens the clasps. "Let's see what you've found in the galactic flea markets..." She opens the lid and there's a very slight intake of breath. I can see the shock in her eyes that momentarily breaks through her usually controlled manner. She actually hesitates in commenting on it, gently picking up some sort of.. commemorative plaque and carefully examining it. "Where did you get this?"

"It used to belong to a mercenary commander by the name of Amalak. He was something of a collector of Kryptonian memorabilia."

Her eyes start to glow. Just a little, but I'm watching for it. "I think I need to talk to him."

"Do you have supernatural powers? Sorry, heh." I look away for a moment as my desire to quote Terry Pratchett overwhelms my common sense. "I mean, he's dead, so unless you've trained as a necromancer…"

Her eyes turn upwards while the rest of her remains completely still. "How did he come by it?"

"It's a little hard to tell; between the Spider Guild and the Crown Imperium's fleet his records were in a poor state when I got access to them. From what I read-" A data crystal emerges from subspace and floats out in front of her. "-it looks like he was either hunting down surviving Kryptonians himself or-."

"Ro." She takes hold of a headband decorated with Kryptonian characters.

Ah. "I'm… Sorry. Someone you knew?"

She shakes her head slightly, returning it to the case. "Did you find anything else?"

"Yes, but I put the best bits in there."

"I'd… Like to go through it. All of it."

I nod. "Fine with me. I had a few things I wanted to discuss with you anyway."

I stand, and she takes a moment to carefully return the items she moved to exactly where they were when she opened it before closing the case again. "We knew... Someone was targeting us. I never heard the name 'Amalak'…"

"He was the more intelligent sort of mercenary commander. He was from a planet called Timaron, it was-."

"One of the Possession Worlds." Ms Wor-Ul stands, keeping a solid grip on the base of the case. "I visited it a few times."

"Anything you want to tell me?"

She shrugs as I lead the way back toward the hush tube opening. "No, not really. Technically, they were part of the Kryptonian Empire but we didn't intervene a whole lot in their internal affairs. We paid for supplies, protected their civilian shipping."

She looks around curiously as we walk through the tube and out into the command area of the Hny'xx facility. My Lanterns overran it a few days after the fall of the Citadel and managed to capture it largely intact. I've had the Genomorphs tidying things up a bit since then.

"You.. missed General Zod's putsch attempt, didn't you?"

"Mm. Heard about it. I didn't like the Science Council either but you didn't see me turning traitor."

"You went AWOL."

"Sure. That was my life, but I accepted the results of the election even though I knew it was stupid. And look what happened: Krypton got destroyed and there weren't any ships to evacuate anyone. Maybe if the General had won then we wouldn't be going extinct."

"As far as I've been able to piece together, General Zod manufactured a confrontation with the government of Timaron and carried out an orbital strike. The resulting dust clouds nearly wiped out the planet's population. Amalak got evacuated as a child, but most of his species died."

Her face twitches. "Rao. I knew the General was a nasty piece of work, but… That…"

"Did you ever meet him?"

"He wasn't even born when I left." She looks around again. "What is this place?"

"This is where they were growing the new generation of Citadelians. Essentially, it's a giant cloning facility." I stop and look at her. "Do you want it?"

She frowns. "Me? What for? I don't have any use for Citadelians."

"As you said, your species is on the verge of extinction. I have a staff experienced in cloning Kryptonians and the best facilities you're likely to find, as well as plenty of Kryptonian genetic records. I would rather your species did not slip into non-existence, and I would like a Kryptonian to be in charge of the project. Interested?"

Her eyes widen slightly. "Defences?"

"Isolated location, and I can have two hundred Lanterns here within a few minutes. And… Ten as a standing garrison? Plus fixed weapons, epic shields and interdiction fields as well as conventional soldiers."

"I-." She averts her eyes and shakes her head. "I'm not a scientist, I can't-."

"You're a military commander. This means that you have organisational skills. And you also have a knowledge of Kryptonian sociology that no one else does. No one else could raise a new generation to be Kryptonians rather than monochrome Tamaranians."

"It's… A lot to think about." She stares about us. "I'll need to look over the whole place."

I nod. "Of course. I've planned out a tour. Oh, and one other thing. Since you raised the point about defences…" I generate a construct image. "You'll never guess what we found buried underneath Texas…"
 
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