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welp, time to break out the strategic scale toys. I suspect both Paul and Satanus are both screwing up here. Pual is underestimating Satanus, the guy is the kind of adaptable and cunning that makes even middling casters a threat, as the lord of hell he's pretty fucking dangerous. Satanus, on the other hand, seems not to have gonked just how massively destructive a lantern can be when collateral damage becomes a plus. If Satanus realized pauls bag of tricks includes WMDS meant for an environment that considers nukes low-intensity flares He would probably be doing this out in the boonies, rather than risking getting Qwa matter on his industrial base.
To be totally honest that would have been a problem even with just a portal; you know how a jamed gun needs to be a hell of a lot tougher to not break from containing a explosion then a normal gun needs to be to redirect one? Now take that logic, and scale it up to the level of, let's say, Anti-matter. I'm sure that you are starting to realise why opening portals to, or, if they dislike you sufficiently, near, someone with access to exotic resources and sufficient easily deployed defencive technologies to defend from/contain said exotic resources would be a bad idea.
So... Let's see, how could this progress / what does Paul have?

I'm guessing that the best strategy for him is to pull out self-perpetuating weaponry. Start with the praexis horde (in the magically charged environment of hell, Praexis demons could probably eat the ground and air and derive meaningful nutrition from it fueling their reproduction). Second stage - pull out some sort of nanotech grey goo (he certainly should have access to such) and set it to convert the environment, while also writing fractal seals of Solomon on everything. After that he could start gating in reinforcements. Like Alan (remember how Dream used Hope against all the hordes of hell? It was super effective). And Blaze. He could start setting tortured souls free and giving them equipment.

Unless Satanus ejects them (actually, how the hell was Satanus able to talk to Paul remotely via magic? Paul is unscryable. Satanus shouldn't be able to hear his responses), Paul does have a chance, I feel.

And then Constantine comes in and takes over.
I feel that nanotech would be a bit too easily corruptible for use in hell, but yeah, Branding some sinners and giving them some weapons should be doable. Maybe he could set up some sort of force field that was modified to press the seals into every surface it was in contact with? The force fields themselves would probably be a good way to get extra surface area to put them on.
What would Paul do if he conquered he'll? Impose a minimum level of civilization?
Well he is Brittish*; they do have somewhat of a history of doing that.

* Actually, this would be a interesting way to introduce him to what is actually going on in Brittan; have him come at it from the other side.
So you want the guy who has the embodiment of ALL Avarice in the entirety of this existence Heart inside of him as his soul to do something...not Orange? Also, what makes you think he even CAN?
I think that he's a doylist.
One thing people advocating mass destruction need to remember, is that Orange Lantern seems to value the souls trapped in hell. He's unlikely to bust out the really big guns and risk destroying something he values.

Regarding the Spear of Destiny, I'm pretty sure I remember that being linked to humanity only. It's unlikely to work on demons. He might get all the souls in Hell under his control, but if they were capable of meaningfully rebelling, you'd think they'd have done so. Also, I can't see OL using Souls as disposable minions.
Well, what you need to remember is that he had a massive capacity for coordination of allied forces here, is always willing to accept help, is always eager to render aid to said allies, and doesn't mind destroying what he can repair later to get what he wants, as seen when he shot through the hostage, and then healed her, during the Devil Jizz event.
Also known as a target rich environment.

Railguns seem like they would be better used for point defense here rather than his main weapon. When collateral damage is not just inconsequential but beneficial, bombs should be the bread and butter attack, along with other indiscriminate weapons like gravity pulses, orange destructive pulses, and high power sonic weapons.
Personally i think that, since it doesn't make sence to need to disarm any defences, which he would sets up during this event, at any point in the future, because, you know, hell, he may very well find it more efficient, in the format of "Orange Light ring charge" to "dead bodies" ratio, to fabricate railguns, or rather to fabricate automated turrets (I wonder if he could just Brand them to cut down on programing), then to make construct railguns. Bombs seem like they could work as good area denial weapons most of the time, but would require too much upkeep to stop demons from just crawling over where the explosion used to be; proximity bombs, and/or self destructing drones, would probably work much better.
I like this bit. He has perfectly valid in universe reasoning for why he shouldn't have Satanus' attention. That he was wrong doesn't make the reasoning worse.

I think the likeliest solution is either a mole or some other snooping. Maybe an invisible demon was stationed at every site of geomantic power on the planet. And while the SI can't be scryed, Jade certainly can be.
I imagine that he would want to look into why his prediction was wrong though, if only so that he would be less likely to be wrong in the future.

Maybe he has a policy of granting anyone who brings escapes from hell to his attention a really damn good tital, with loads of benifits, and the way that souls are dragged out of hell is really flashy from the other side? Like, there was this one guy who made a joke about how the current host of the reincarnated persons soul, who would probably be a frog or something, would just hover and glow in the middle of someones lawn for a while, before the ritual gave up trying to pull the soul out of it to put back in the past body; that sort of thing would probably be rather looked into in somewhere like hell.
1) Spear of Destiny is definitely connected to everyone on Earth, and Sephtian wasn't sure about it being connected to everyone in the universe. Given that it worked on Fate (an alien ascended to become Lord of Order) during WW2, my guess is that it works on everyone, period.
Did it work on Fate or on Nabu?
2) Souls in hell are a power source - their prayers power a lot of stuff, as Fawcett city invasion demonstrated. Just purely taking control of them and switching them to chanting "In nomine Patris" or something along those lines would wreck large portions of hell's infrastructure. And that's without converting them all to Helenism (powerful mind control with an epic artifact might pull that off), thus both giving Hades a massive power up, and giving him a cause to invade hell, opening a second frontline for Satanus to defend.
This would be god damn wonderful; it would be a bit tricky to pull off (he might need to mess with exactly what he is controling in order to make sure that they are actually having Faith rather then just praying by rote), and he might be able to direct them toward Blaze in order to power her converted state, if he could pull that off in a hurry, but even at its worst it would probaby be amazing.
 
Oh I'm glad things finally picked up, this arc was getting so boring, read more like a lab experiment than anything. Also let's see if Paul adds any interesting new demons to his shopping list.

Huge amount of pure evil? If you compare their number to earth population sure, but the entire universe is filled living beings more or less strongly connected to the orange light of avarice (plus a lot of things in hell are likely more strongly connected to that kind of emotion). Even if he assimilated all of hell and made their connection to the orange light a thousand times stronger than the average living being, that'd still amount to basically nothing, an effect so many decimals right of a significant number that you'd never notice it at all, hell you'd have more effect on the pacific if you took as piss in it than this.

As it has been clarified quite a few times HELL is universal, there are different planes of hell with different major demons ruling them, but all of them are connected. Few Demons can go from one plane of hell to the other, but without the First of the Fallen that list has likely expanded to include Saturnus.


Tldr.

Hell is universal same as the Shadowlands.
The silver city is localized to earth, hence why the Angels cannot win against hell even if their theurgical connection to the Source gives them a type advantage a la Pokemon.
 
I seem to recall Etrigan contemplating using American forces to destroy Hell in its entirety if he couldn't rule it, so a mortal with a power ring and the right means wiping out Hell's new and impoved industrial infrastructure shouldn't be that impossible.
"You know that old line, 'Special Forces never die, they just go to Hell to regroup'?"

"Yeah?"

"We'll need a new one, now that we've blown Hell up."
 
As it has been clarified quite a few times HELL is universal, there are different planes of hell with different major demons ruling them, but all of them are connected. Few Demons can go from one plane of hell to the other, but without the First of the Fallen that list has likely expanded to include Saturnus.


Tldr.

Hell is universal same as the Shadowlands.
The silver city is localized to earth, hence why the Angels cannot win against hell even if their theurgical connection to the Source gives them a type advantage a la Pokemon.

grumble mumble grumble grumble... That move still annoys me.
 
As it has been clarified quite a few times HELL is universal, there are different planes of hell with different major demons ruling them, but all of them are connected. Few Demons can go from one plane of hell to the other, but without the First of the Fallen that list has likely expanded to include Saturnus
Quote for Hell being universal? Considering We've seen other afterlives I'm not sure how that would work.
 
Hm. I'm not sure. We do see Krypton's hell in the comics, but we also have Thanagarians who died during the Invasion! event being unable to get to a Thanagarian afterlife of any kind.

There- there was a conversation about this. Remember?

My grumbling about how Christianity tends to be treated special in stories where it's shown along with other mythologies. You saying that a lot of religions had a hell. Me pointing out that we haven't seen much that looked similar to the Norse Hel, Chinese Hell or other similarly hell-y places in other religions. Then you clarifying that you meant on other planets with Krypton's Hell used as an example? Which, you know, having one particular religion be interstellar doesn't really suggest that it's not being treated special.
 
give the demons a true taste of sorrow.
Johnny Sorrow: "Well, I don't know, I never really thought about it before. Hell's a bit of a fixer-upper...but I suppose the King of Tears might be interested in there as an alternative to Earth..."
.
.
.
"And that's how I made Hell worse."

"I was wondering why the last time I summoned a demon it clutched my ankle and begged not to go back."
 
There- there was a conversation about this. Remember?
No, of course I don't remember. I've been doing this for years. I probably know less about it than you do at this point.
My grumbling about how Christianity tends to be treated special in stories where it's shown along with other mythologies. You saying that a lot of religions had a hell. Me pointing out that we haven't seen much that looked similar to the Norse Hel, Chinese Hell or other similarly hell-y places in other religions. Then you clarifying that you meant on other planets with Krypton's Hell used as an example? Which, you know, having one particular religion be interstellar doesn't really suggest that it's not being treated special.
I didn't create the Presence, but it's existence is too big a part of the New Gods for me to ignore it.
 
Oh, and let's not forget: Paul has access to the Spear of Destiny (which he could probably get through a dolmen gate that he probably carries). And even if he himself can't cast the "mind control everyone in your territory" spell, there are several magic users with him. As soon as Paul establishes a territory and starts expanding, stopping him might be nigh-impossible.

Bringing an item with a connection to the souls of everyone on earth into hell seems like a very, very, VERY bad idea.
 
No, of course I don't remember. I've been doing this for years. I probably know less about it than you do at this point.

I didn't create the Presence, but it's existence is too big a part of the New Gods for me to ignore it.


It was last year. During the aforementioned discussion, i asked you if Hell was universal in a similar fashion to the Shadowlands and you answered that it was.

I remember the discussion spiraled from the point that other alien civilizations usually have their own hells and how all of them grew around whatever the first of the fallen created when he got bitch slapped by the presence. Thus why the first of the fallen is among the few that can visit each and every one of them unhindered and why he is KNOWN outside of earth.

Also i asked you if you could make a HELL FTL drive (Paul moves through the plane of universal avarice, so doing the same through hell should be possible) and i don't remember you answering, but i do remember people shit posting memes of the Event Horizon movie.
 
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It was last year. During the aforementioned discussion, i asked you if Hell was universal in a similar fashion to the Shadowlands and you answered that it was.

I remember the discussion spiraled from the point that other alien civilizations usually have their own hells and how all of them grew around whatever the first of the fallen created when he got bitch slapped by the presence. Thus why the first of the fallen is among the few that can visit each and every one of them unhindered and why he is KNOWN outside of earth.

Also i asked you if you could make a HELL FTL drive (Paul moves through the plane of universal avarice, so doing the same through hell should be possible) and i don't remember you answering, but i do remember people shit posting memes of the Event Horizon movie.
Not to mention Lucifer is stated to have ruled The Pit for approximately 10 billion years before his abdication.

So considering this was LONG before Abraham started preaching the good word, I'd say we'll have to include the varied monotheistic faiths and interpretations, (or aspects) of Heaven, Hell and God that other species ascribe to.
 
As it has been clarified quite a few times HELL is universal, there are different planes of hell with different major demons ruling them, but all of them are connected. Few Demons can go from one plane of hell to the other, but without the First of the Fallen that list has likely expanded to include Saturnus.


Tldr.

Hell is universal same as the Shadowlands.
The silver city is localized to earth, hence why the Angels cannot win against hell even if their theurgical connection to the Source gives them a type advantage a la Pokemon.
Pretty sure the silver city is the monotheistic equivalent to hell in the universe. There are a lot of religions across known and unknown space that dump their good souls there and can call on angels in the right circumstances.
 
Personally i think that, since it doesn't make sence to need to disarm any defences, which he would sets up during this event, at any point in the future, because, you know, hell, he may very well find it more efficient, in the format of "Orange Light ring charge" to "dead bodies" ratio, to fabricate railguns, or rather to fabricate automated turrets (I wonder if he could just Brand them to cut down on programing), then to make construct railguns. Bombs seem like they could work as good area denial weapons most of the time, but would require too much upkeep to stop demons from just crawling over where the explosion used to be; proximity bombs, and/or self destructing drones, would probably work much better.
I'm honestly unsure of what you're trying to say with that first sentence.

I think you're significantly underestimating the type of bombs I'm thinking of. The SI has a small bubble of space filled with people who he doesn't want to die, and in every other direction there are miles of things that want to kill him, or the tools they would use to do so. If the SI doesn't have to put shields up to block the shockwaves/fireballs of his own attacks, he's not thinking big enough.
One thing people advocating mass destruction need to remember, is that Orange Lantern seems to value the souls trapped in hell. He's unlikely to bust out the really big guns and risk destroying something he values.
The non-demons in hell are evidently not recoverable in a useful sense. Given that hell is billions of years old, and the proportion of new people must be very low, it's counterproductive to not use the heaviest weapons you can. Every second you delay just means more people get sucked in. Yes, it's regrettable that relatively innocent people would die, but it's vastly more regrettable if you lose the war due to not using your best weapons. Multiple orders of magnitude more.
My complaints against the story go in a different direction- the update schedule and format pretty much removes all tension and excitement from the story by being snippet like. This story is best not read for months at a time, so you can binge it to get a better experience.
While I agree that there is a benefit to binge reading, as a group strategy it would probably make Zoat stop posting if he only got a fraction of the comments he does now.
 
Pretty sure the silver city is the monotheistic equivalent to hell in the universe. There are a lot of religions across known and unknown space that dump their good souls there and can call on angels in the right circumstances.


Not as far as what i remember Zoat saying.

The silver city aka heaven is limited to earth, however this doesn't apply to most high level angels as their existence is similar to the first of the fallen or lucifer IE they predate the silver city by a significant margin.

In short the Silver City as an aspect of "heaven" is much much newer than the rest of 'heaven', it is a new 'city'.
 
Hm. I'm not sure. We do see Krypton's hell in the comics, but we also have Thanagarians who died during the Invasion! event being unable to get to a Thanagarian afterlife of any kind.

Remember Swamp Thing, the scene with the Dominators in Hell? Always thought that was a neat idea.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1nHr0oDOPUI/VmlWCZ9celI/AAAAAAAALUM/9ExZBh9k8AY/s0-Ic42/RCO004.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JEHBAoG1ouM/VmlWEvma71I/AAAAAAAALUM/Qx2MciJnf6A/s0-Ic42/RCO013.jpg

'Oh. We had not considered that.'
 
Hm. I'm not sure. We do see Krypton's hell in the comics, but we also have Thanagarians who died during the Invasion! event being unable to get to a Thanagarian afterlife of any kind.
I mean, if it just happened in one comic does it really matter? Especially in the cases where following that line of canon (aint like there's a ton of contradicting ones anyway) kinda just makes things nonsensical. Does Yahweh not being the Presence actually an issue? It's not like you're gonna use the narrative abomination that's the Specter either, even if his existence is canon.

Personally I just find the whole 'christianity is correct' and everyone else picked wrong to be so very trite and boring. It being that way makes every other pantheon lesser for it and as a byproduct lessens the whole setting too. Plus it just makes no darn sense to me so I hate the concept with a passion. Doesn't matter if it's a version of canon if it also happens to be garbage (not the whole of it ofc, just that specific bit).
 
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I mean, if it just happened in one comic does it really matter? Especially in the cases where following that line of canon (aint like there's a ton of contradicting ones anyway) kinda just makes things nonsensical. Does Yahweh not being the Presence actually an issue? It's not like you're gonna use the narrative abomination that's the Specter either, even if his existence is canon.

Personally I just find the whole 'christianity is correct' and everyone else picked wrong to be so very trite and boring. It being that way makes every other pantheon lesser for it and as a byproduct lessens the whole setting too. Plus it just makes no darn sense to me so I hate the concept with a passion. Doesn't matter if it's a version of canon if it also happens to be garbage (not the whole of it ofc, just that specific bit).


Dude all religions are correct, that is kind of the point. Christianity just manages to piggy back on its theurgical connection to the Presence to have a pokemon type advantage against the creatures of hell.
 
I mean...he is incapable of doing things he doesn't want to do....
I hear this a lot (not specifically from you Maxx), and I feel like I should comment on it:

"Incapable of doing things he doesn't want to do" sort of... fundamentally makes zero sense.

If you "want" to do something, that means that if you have the power to do it, you do it. If someone says "I don't want to get up, but I'm really hungry so I will.", then they actually do want to get up. There is the desire to not get up, but they consider the consequence (continuing to be hungry), weigh it against the desire to not be hungry, and then if it is within their power to get up, they get up.

Of course, this is complicated by the fact that one's power (i.e. how hard it is to get up) has to be considered before you come to a decision, since that affects the outcome, but normally this isn't a issue. It also goes without saying that people are imperfect, and thus may make decisions based on incorrect (improperly introspected) information, or might accidentally flip a metaphorical sign during the mental arithmetic.

If you go through this entire process of mental arithmetic and decide you don't want to do something, then you won't do it. You never attempt to do things that you don't want to do, ever. Even if you do something that you really don't like, you still want to do it because you weighed your options and decided that that was the least bad choice.

Now, Rings of Avarice sort of complicate this. They specifically require you to want to do something selfishly, not just "want" it. After all if they did function on "want", they'd be the perfect rings (mental issues aside), capable of doing anything that any other ring color could do that isn't a color-specific ability; they'd smash as easily as red, heal as easily as indigo, etc.

So normally, saying that a Orange Ring wielder can't do something because they don't want to does make sense, because they have to want it selfishly. But Paul is enlightened, and that means two things:

1: He has perfect introspection regarding his desires; he knows and understands all of his desires and is a expert at the mental arithmetic of combining that into a single "want".

2: Possibly as a consequence of #1, all of his "wants" are clearly based in self interest; anything and everything he wants, he wants selfishly. Normally I'd argue that all rational "wants" are ultimately based in self-interest anyway, but Orange Rings either disagree, or have a very strict definition of "rational" and nothing short of Paul's perfect introspection and flawless arithmetic will fit the bill.

So, Paul will never have issues with a ring refusing to do what he wants, except by fault or external influences, because absolutely everything he will ever attempt to do with the ring will be a "selfish desire". If he can't go to a hospital and heal hundreds of people, it's not because he wants to and can't, its because he's weighed his desires and he actually doesn't want to. This doesn't mean he's apathetic, he's reasonable arguments as for why; for instance, healing lots of people would make the human race more dependent on him and reduce efforts to develop sustainable medical technology, ultimately causing more harm in the future.

So coming back to the current argument, he's perfectly capable of stopping the potentially dangerous Lazarus resurrection attempts. But he's considered how much he wants to, weighed the potential risks and consequences, and decided that its worth it. He isn't any sort of "slave" to his desires. Quite the opposite, infact:


A person is the product of their desires, tempered by the limitations of their capabilities, forged and shaped by the limits of their intellect.

A normal person's dreams and aspirations are limited by the harsh rules of reality, the strangling limitations of the human body, and the transparent limitations of a observant mind.

But Orange Lantern has the power to bend and break reality's harsh mandates, and holds a limitless, obedient mind to do what his cannot. If slaves are those chained and denied their wants, hopes, and dreams, then no man carries less weight than him.
 
2: Possibly as a consequence of #1, all of his "wants" are clearly based in self interest; anything and everything he wants, he wants selfishly. Normally I'd argue that all rational "wants" are ultimately based in self-interest anyway, but Orange Rings either disagree, or have a very strict definition of "rational" and nothing short of Paul's perfect introspection and flawless arithmetic will fit the bill.
This isn't the case. Feeling other emotions no longer occludes his avarice the way it does for most Lanterns, but he is still capable of non-avariciously desiring something and not being able to do it. It doesn't come up too often, but if he tries to heal too many people he doesn't care much about, he will suffer from care fatigue and simply be unable to continue.
I managed to heal the five worst wounded before I no longer want to heal them sufficiently to help them.

"Mountain to Orange Lantern."

I just... I don't, I can't identify with them. I'm using an orange ring. They aren't mine in the way that my team mates and Alan are. Should I feel worse about that? I don't know any of these children, I don't identify with this city. My revulsion at their injuries just got overwhelmed, compassion clouding out my avarice. There's just so many...
This isn't his somewhat normal by now "I don't desire this, therefore it is morally right for me not to do so." He does genuinely want to continue, but doesn't want to. Being especially orange towards a certain goal may coincide with feeling some other emotion towards it, but he can't use other emotions to power the ring.

That said, I agree with the rest. If it wasn't a central conceit, then I would bring up that there's not really such thing as a desire that exists solely for the sake of someone else. Every desire is selfish, viewed mechanically enough. Compassion may bias you towards helping other people even if it isn't directly towards your benefit, but no one is going to help someone towards a goal that they view as harmful. You help people towards states that you either find beneficial for them or at least neutral. Extremely compassionate people don't help addicts get drugs even if those addicts really do genuinely want the drugs. They help them towards a state that they find better, even if the addict disagrees.

Similar for the rest of the colors: they're all just selfish desires framed in different ways. Emotions may bias you towards certain ways of thinking, but they're all still desires. Desire for revenge, desire for self preservation, desire to help other people, etc.
 
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