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Mordru couldn't get back to Earth because of something Klarion did (Mordru was more powerful and Klarion wanted to be top dog.
He couldn't get back in because there was a Lord of Chaos already there; Klarion didn't have to actually do anything.
He shakes his head. "Not at all. I am glad that he is dead. He was a buffoon of a Chaos Lord, interested only in his own temporary amusement and incapable of doing anything particularly creative or significant with the vast power available to him. With him still alive cosmic balance itself prevented me from returning to exact my revenge. You have my thanks, Grayven."
IIRC it's even come up that if someone did the ritual to ascend into a Lord of either type they'd be immediately booted out of the world unless they somehow made a vacancy for themselves.
 


Constantine: "What you're feeling around your face, and other parts, is Ragman's suit. Trapped inside-"
OL's internal monologue: Oh my word, shut the hell up, you idiot!
Outwardly: "Mr. Regan, could you *please* hurry?"
...is that SUPERMAN that's wrapped up in the rags?

If so, when did he murder a planet full of people?
 
...is that SUPERMAN that's wrapped up in the rags?

If so, when did he murder a planet full of people?

Injustice: Gods Among Us, a universe where Superman and Wonder Woman went evil, and brought a lot of others down with them. Schlocky fun, if you pretend that these are different people entirely than mainline Clark and Diana. And I'm actually not sure? I think that's a reference to Mogo?
 
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my head cannon is that kryptonons just tend not to do shades of grey well, so superman snapping after what the joker did kind of fits. Though wonder woman sprinting down the slippery slope makes no sense at all. Someone going from pure idealism to pragmatic could easily fall down the slope since they don't know what they are doing, but WW has always been pragmatic and spent her youth killing Nazis, she shouldn't OD on pragmatism like some naïve first timer.
 
Injustice: Gods Among Us, a universe where Superman and Wonder Woman went evil, and brought a lot of others down with them. Schlocky fun, if you pretend that these are different people entirely than mainline Clark and Diana. And I'm actually not sure? I think that's a reference to Mogo?
I haven't seen or played much of Injustice, but I was under the impression that they didn't so much go evil, so much as they went in a strict Justice Lords direction.

Also, wow, that is the first time I've ever seen someone use Schlock in a sentence outside of the webcomic.
 
Constantine: "What you're feeling around your face, and other parts, is Ragman's suit. Trapped inside-"
OL's internal monologue: Oh my word, shut the hell up, you idiot!
Outwardly: "Mr. Regan, could you *please* hurry?"
In that situation, the SI would probably just go with kryptonite. And arrest the badly dressed serial killer.
I haven't seen or played much of Injustice, but I was under the impression that they didn't so much go evil, so much as they went in a strict Justice Lords direction.
Superman killed Guy Gardner, Ganthet, Mogo... A bunch of other people, considered Sinestro to be an ally, veered randomly to Justice Lord to crazed murderous tyrant...
 
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Were any of them convicted of a crime and then sentenced to thousands of years of enslavement?

...yes? In the eyes of the Presence, yes? Ragman's suit can actually determine guilt, unlike the more inefficient criminal justice system. Like, these are all legitimately terrible people in the Suit. I don't get your point unless you're being purposefully anal.

What does it matter if they were convicted of a crime, if you have a power that can reliably (and has done so for centuries/millennia) discern if they actually did it?

Thousands of years of enslavement? Dude, Hell is eternal.
 
Thousands of years of enslavement seems sort of... unnecessary. Are they actually particularly useful while enslaved? I mean, I could see a good argument for assimilating criminals instead of the death penalty - they suddenly become extremely beneficial to society, and their complete obedience means that their harmful effects on society will be minimal.

But something like hell, or sticking them in a coat... it'd be better just to kill them, really. Hell isn't useful at all, and its quite harmful because sometimes demons visit earth and fuck stuff up.

Wait, actually, if the alternative is killing them and having them go to hell, maybe it IS better to trap them in a coat where they can't evolve into a demon and terrorize people. Of course this really all depends on what type of justice you prefer.
 
Thousands of years of enslavement seems sort of... unnecessary. Are they actually particularly useful while enslaved? I mean, I could see a good argument for assimilating criminals instead of the death penalty - they suddenly become extremely beneficial to society, and their complete obedience means that their harmful effects on society will be minimal.

But something like hell, or sticking them in a coat... it'd be better just to kill them, really. Hell isn't useful at all, and its quite harmful because sometimes demons visit earth and fuck stuff up.

Wait, actually, if the alternative is killing them and having them go to hell, maybe it IS better to trap them in a coat where they can't evolve into a demon and terrorize people. Of course this really all depends on what type of justice you prefer.

They are. They can contribute information to the wearer of the Suit of Soul, as well as their own personal strength. Rory can call upon their physical prowess, skills and knowledge, and in return, they get a bit of time off of their sentence. By making themselves available to him, they purify their own souls and prepare themselves for Heaven.

Rory can't assimilate prisoners, though, because voluntarily serving out a prison sentence counts as seeking redemption for one crimes. I don't quite get how that works, but it was the rationale for him not taking in Blue Moon.
 
...yes? In the eyes of the Presence, yes?
In the eyes of Earth's legal systems, no.
Ragman's suit can actually determine guilt, unlike the more inefficient criminal justice system. Like, these are all legitimately terrible people in the Suit. I don't get your point unless you're being purposefully anal.
As a superhero, you rather have to think about these things. In that regard I suppose that I am being purposively anal. Are you arguing that because Earth's legal system is imperfect a man in a ragged cloak should be allowed to murder whoever he wants because the voiced in his head tell him they're bad people?
What does it matter if they were convicted of a crime, if you have a power that can reliably (and has done so for centuries/millennia) discern if they actually did it?
Because that's murder. Britain doesn't execute people at all, and America doesn't execute everywhere and doesn't at all for things the rag suit will eat people for. And that's not even getting into the slavery aspect, or the fact that any of his victim's surviving victims will never see their attacker in court or know what happened to them at all. They will continue to believe that they got away with it.
Thousands of years of enslavement? Dude, Hell is eternal.
Assuming they would have gone there. Again, the rag suit will eat people for things that Odin would pat them on the back for, or at least shrug off.
 

Okay, sure. Agree to disagree. I believe that the people in Rory's Suit deserve to die, that there's conclusive proof that they have committed their crimes, and if necessary, I'm sure you could have a telepath examine them beforehand, although I don't think that's necessary, that it's better for them to be in the Suit than in Hell, which is most likely where they'll go, (10,000 years vs eternity), that the souls are more useful to humanity helping Rory than rotting in prison or Hell.

Those are my points in favor of the Suit of Souls. You seem to be acting as if Rory's Suit was something untested, unknowable, when there are numerous arcane experts who can say that Rory's suit is the genuine article. There are points to be raised about Rory listening to evil souls, sure. That's why I think he'd work best on a team like Shadowpact with magical experts keeping an eye on him.

This is pointless. I've always been bad at debating, and I'm sorry for wasting your time.
 
He couldn't get back in because there was a Lord of Chaos already there; Klarion didn't have to actually do anything.
Mordru, Klarion, and Shade the Changing Man, all Chaos Lords, were active at the same time (and Klarion has been on Earth for many years.

Chaos doesn't have a '1 per planet rule' (Chaos doesn't follow many rules period), Hell, even after Mordru was locked out, there were still 2 Chaos Lords on Earth.
 
Mordru, Klarion, and Shade the Changing Man, all Chaos Lords, were active at the same time (and Klarion has been on Earth for many years.

Chaos doesn't have a '1 per planet rule' (Chaos doesn't follow many rules period), Hell, even after Mordru was locked out, there were still 2 Chaos Lords on Earth.
Not in this story. Neither Shade nor Mordru were around at the same time as Klarion, and Shade has to use workarounds to keep in touch now.
 
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Not in this story. Neither Shade nor Mordru wasn't around at the same time as Klarion, and Shade has to use workarounds to keep in touch now.


So the changing man is in a similar position to Shazam technically on earth, but mostly unable to directly do anything by themselves. Fate was meant to be the opponent of Klarion, but he was out of commission for most of it... And that begs the question of what was keeping Klarion from doing crazy shit in the decades he had free reign on earth?
 
huh, I was mixing up comic canon(s) and story canon I guess.
In the Earth 1 comics, Klarion is a magic using alien and Shade is a guy from a parallel universe. Neither are Lords of Chaos, though Klarion did become ruler of the Earth after the Sheeda Queen's death.
So the changing man is in a similar position to Shazam technically on earth, but mostly unable to directly do anything by themselves. Fate was meant to be the opponent of Klarion, but he was out of commission for most of it... And that begs the question of what was keeping Klarion from doing crazy shit in the decades he had free reign on earth?
If I had to guess, lack of mental focus. Or the belief that Kent would put the Helmet back on if he did. Or other superheroes.
 
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So the changing man is in a similar position to Shazam technically on earth, but mostly unable to directly do anything by themselves. Fate was meant to be the opponent of Klarion, but he was out of commission for most of it... And that begs the question of what was keeping Klarion from doing crazy shit in the decades he had free reign on earth?

If I had to guess, lack of mental focus. Or the belief that Kent would put the Helmet back on if he did. Or other superheroes.

Klarion might not have been on Earth the entire time either. Lords of Chaos/Order are not necessarily bound to those particular planes except by the anchors that keep them there, and those anchors can be moved.

You could bring the Helmet to another plane, or the Dreaming, or Hell, right? Teekl could walk through a planar portal pretty easily.

Maybe Klarion was off in Eyrie wreaking havoc by letting Teekl hunt the cute birdies for a few years, or maybe he only ever came to Earth for the first time within a few decades?
 
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Okay, sure. Agree to disagree. I believe that the people in Rory's Suit deserve to die, that there's conclusive proof that they have committed their crimes, and if necessary, I'm sure you could have a telepath examine them beforehand, although I don't think that's necessary, that it's better for them to be in the Suit than in Hell, which is most likely where they'll go, (10,000 years vs eternity), that the souls are more useful to humanity helping Rory than rotting in prison or Hell.

Those are my points in favor of the Suit of Souls. You seem to be acting as if Rory's Suit was something untested, unknowable, when there are numerous arcane experts who can say that Rory's suit is the genuine article. There are points to be raised about Rory listening to evil souls, sure. That's why I think he'd work best on a team like Shadowpact with magical experts keeping an eye on him.

This is pointless. I've always been bad at debating, and I'm sorry for wasting your time.

It's the difference between being morally justified, and being legally justified.

If I have Detect Evil as a passive ability, and I know that it's never ever wrong, then I could argue that I should just shoot anyone who glows red in my vision. Thus ridding the world of evil people.
The american court doesn't accept that though. People are entitled to a fair trial.
Even criminals. Especially criminals.

Unless you're willing to make 'some guy with glowing eyes and a gun' the highest authority of justice in your country, then you need to rely on the courts.

Personally, I disagree with that though. The court-system is fallible, and potentially corruptible.
You can't bluff, threaten or bribe your way out of the Penance Stare.*

It might not be legal, but it's more reliable than a judge and jury.

Well, there's issues of ensuring that the punishment meets the crime.
If I shoot anyone who pings as 'evil' does that mean I'll be shooting people for generally being dirtbags and assholes? I'm basically executing people. You gotta make sure that they're evil enough to deserve it.

Plus there's the issue with me maybe just deciding that since nobody else can see if they're pinging evil or not, maybe I'll just shoot this guy who isn't evil, then say he was. He was kind of an arse though, so he deserved it, right?

*Well, the fact that both Punisher and Deadpool have survived it means that you can, but you get what I mean.

Edit: TLDR: If you're going to enforce 'not being evil' with threat of supernatural execution, then you gotta take over the whole country first.
If you're a dictator, you can do whatever you want because you make the laws.
 
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Edit: TLDR: If you're going to enforce 'not being evil' with threat of supernatural execution, then you gotta take over the whole country first.
If you're a dictator, you can do whatever you want because you make the laws.
You don't need to do that. The universe is based on action and reaction, not laws and morals. If you're a person with superpowers alone in a otherwise normal universe, you can do anything you want because no one can stop you. If you're a person with superpowers among others, you have to worry about them, because they can stop you.

Thus, in a universe where the justice league, etc work, you would need to stay on their good side. You also need to avoid pissing off the governments too much, as the JL likes to listen to them and might pressure them into going after you. Keeping those in mind, you can do whatever you want.

You don't need to follow the legal system, you only need to worry about pissing off the US government or the JL. The JL has a sort of 'minimum threshold', below which they'll probably ignore you, so if you don't do anything really overt or really evil they probably won't do anything to you on their own volition. And since the government at least somewhat listens to the people, you have much less to worry about if you do things that are technically illegal but not necessarily against the desires of the populace. See: Gravyen killing Klarion. 100% Illegal, he murdered someone, but a huge portion of the population completely supports what he did, and the other part is only somewhat caught up about it.

So yes, you can go around using Detect Evil on people and then enslaving them in a coat, so long as you do one of the following:

1: Hide your actions or your identity to some degree, so that no one knows you're doing them and thus no one will stop you, or at the very least you stay off the JL's radar.

2: Target people who are publicly reviled so that no one is particularly inclined to go after you, even if you're breaking the law.

That's it.



Edit: see also:
Batman(in some universes). Vigilante, he breaks the law. But in many cases, the police work with him or at the very least don't make anything more than a bare-minimum, token effort to catch him.
Also, pretty much every other superhero in any universe where they don't act with government oversight and aren't a member of the police. All vigilantes, all breaking the law, but in many cases the police actively work with them and help them.
 
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Merchants have gang colors; I think they're red and green? I could be wrong on what they are. At some point in the story, they also kidnap and forcibly addict people to drugs to press-gang them into being customers or members. (Or is that fanon?)

It's just a Will save. And immunity to death effects or mental effects works pretty well, too.
...... what the.


Why am i quoted here?
 
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