With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

[Jarrik32]

When it comes to going all in on genetic screening and the like, of correcting genetic flaws, most people are fucking idiots.

If you can safely and reliably make it so that no one else ever has to be born with a flaw that, say, confines them to a wheelchair in early childhood? That's a good thing. Get things to the point that things like blindness or deafness are the result of accidents rather than something people can be born with? Also good.

When genetic engineering becomes a mature tech, it should be flat out mandatory.

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Part of the problem is that people are rarely as rational as we'd like about such things. A classic example is the using the results of modern screening techniques to abort fetuses, for a child with a crippling illness that's a grim but reasonable decision. Then you get people doing it because the child has a cleft palate. That's not even going into abortion based on sex.

Use of advanced screening and genetic engineering could be invaluable in the future but currently I suspect it would just enable our worst aspects.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I am aware of at least one thing unique to deaf culture that doesn't occur in normal hearing culture, at least in the UK. Since normal names aren't practical to sign there's a tendency to adopt 'usernames' to refer to one another. There are probably other things that I'm not aware of, things that have grown out of the disability. I would suggest that the sensible way to think about it isn't to say 'that isn't a culture', it would be to ask whether ending it is really a problem. For a personal example, my mother has fibromyalgia and attends a support group for sufferers. If the condition was suddenly curable, the group would disband. Is that a problem? No, not really.

Then you get people doing it because the child has a cleft palate. That's not even going into abortion based on sex.

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There was a case in the UK where a vicar who had herself been born with cleft palate used legal action to prevent the abortion of a foetus with the same condition. The other side pointed out that while sometimes a cleft palate was just a cleft palate, a lot of the time in was an indicator of other, harder to spot problems.

 

[varoksa]

So are we not getting more renegade for awhile? the story has been really sparse of it for awhile like 1 post per arc for the last three arcs. Which is pretty sad because my favourite scene in the story was from renegade (Darkseid) and it tends to have better character development than OL Paul imo.

 

[nmWarden]

How about it a summarized history lesson folks about Deaf Culture in the United States. From the 1860s to about 1905 doctors and inventors were getting organized and reducing cases of quackery. A small number of divisive figures opposed the trend of hearing-impaired people, especially children, being separated from their non-handicapped peers for their education. The two ideas doctors argued over was whether the best teaching these people needed was A) tutoring for speech therapy, lip-reading, and education on how to notice sources of sound in order to hide their handicap as much as possible. And B) group the hearing impaired children together and foster communication between them. Any two deaf kids would figure out some communicable gestures after a mere moment's interaction.

Everyone's seen those J-shaped athletic leg prosthetics, right? Back ninety-nine out of a hundred prosthetics were designed to show real-looking limbs instead of practical or comfortable prosthetics. This "adapt yourself to society, don't make society adapt to you" was sort of why stuff like sign language was opposed. "Seeming normal is more important than being it" is a common part of human cultures.

There was more to each belief, but the common shift from B to A happens over that time period. Any development of sign language or serious preference for spending time with other people that could relate to your handicap was... treated like left-handed writing in front of a nun. This trend reversed itself by the 1960s, but there were very bitter memories by those ensuring a better future for hearing-impaired in the future. The Deaf Community became a real thing across the country. Imagine them closer to a political party than a family and you'll get why vocal members of it can hold such different beliefs and spew righteous hatred to some events.

Deaf culture is real, it has saved people just like any support system, and it doesn't want to be hidden "out of sight, out of mind" from the general public. We don't and they certainly don't have all of the superscience medicine in fiction.

 

[Mr Zoat]

So are we not getting more renegade for awhile? the story has been really sparse of it for awhile like 1 post per arc for the last three arcs. Which is pretty sad because my favourite scene in the story was from renegade (Darkseid) and it tends to have better character development than OL Paul imo.

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Episode after next. We haven't seen much of him because a) it hasn't been very long and b) that thing with Darkseid really took it out of him.

 

[Angelform]

18th July
21:04 GMT

clickers

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Non rubber-forehead aliens. Neat.
Interesting issue.

Director Jeddigar
Manu Mia Mosopo

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We actually going to see this meeting or is this just an acknowledgment that it is happening before we move on to Paul being Productive again?

Episode after next. We haven't seen much of him because a) it hasn't been very long and b) that thing with Darkseid really took it out of him.

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Yeah somehow I doubt 'I sat in the manna infusion chamber all day' makes a worthwhile update.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

tends to have better character development than OL Paul imo.

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Not trying to be argumentative here, but I gotta disagree. Granted Paul hasn't "developed" much, aside from being more tolerant of pissy temper tantrums (Hello Artemis!), mostly because well...he was already based on a real guy. Which always makes me laugh at the "Damn it Paul! You need to be tapping dem honry chicks more!" Like everyone is yelling at Zoat for not getting laid enough.

But beyond that...that's actually been my problem with Rene-Paul. All his development has been...well fake. He's almost completely abandoned his real self to basically play pretend. That...unnerves me. I mean he started out as basically Paul being kinda a dick, only to make a series of really bad choices, one after another, starting with shooting himself up with Venom-Buster. After that....any and all development has either been Paul lying, or being subtly brainwashed. I mean...he's lied to all of his friends, lied to everyone who works for him, and is also lying to his adopted daughter. He has championed and lived a culture that isn't his (On Apocalypse we do ----) while moving further and further from who he ACTUALLY is. I was hoping he'd start to claw it back after his episode with the Source wall but...well it hasn't happened. Perhaps not helped by the fact that all I remember of the guy he is impersonating is that he was like...a really third-rate Kyle Rayner villain. So not only is Paul impersonating someone else...he's impersonating someone who sucks.

I think that's part of why I just can't get into Rene-Paul even try to. Nothing about what he is, is actually real. Almost like watching a friend degenerate into some form of mental illness, and there isn't anything you can do to stop it.

Well that and Rene-Paul always seems to pop in whenever something REALLY interesting is going on with Para-Paul.

Now granted I suppose it IS possible that Paul and the real Gravyen actually smash-merged with each other when Paul was yanked out of Britain.

By the by...question for all you across the ponders. Is it England or Britain? What's the difference? Seriously, this has bugged me since childhood and no one has ever explained.

Deaf culture is real, it has saved people just like any support system, and it doesn't want to be hidden "out of sight, out of mind" from the general public. We don't and they certainly don't have all of the superscience medicine in fiction.

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I would never downplay any of that, nor should people be hidden for being slightly different from the so called "norm" just because it makes "normies" uncomfortable.

HOWEVER.

If there were some magic button, that could heal all people with various inborn disabilities, it should not be held back because "It would erase their culture." Among other complaints I've heard.

 

[varoksa]

Episode after next. We haven't seen much of him because a) it hasn't been very long and b) that thing with Darkseid really took it out of him.

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Well maybe do some Lynn fluff? i know you dont like POV's but she is your SI's daughter i think shes pretty important and doesnt get nearly enough attention.

 

[zachol]

Deaf culture is super interesting and there are a variety of interesting arguments about allowing congenital deafness that seem like they could be persuasive for me, but I find it really, really irritating when people argue against screening in general because of the possible knock-on effects it could have on groups where the nature of the condition as a "disability" is debatable.
Like, a murkier example is autism, where the better "cure" is something like greater social acceptance, and I can easily imagine there would be massive arguments about whether it's irresponsible not to screen it out, and it could lead to really shitty forms of discrimination against autism if screening became common, but if you're arguing against screening for fibromyalgia or Tay-Sachs disease in response, that's pretty shitty.

 

[Mr Zoat]

We actually going to see this meeting or is this just an acknowledgement that it is happening before we move on to Paul being Productive again?

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Yes, just one section though.

Yeah somehow I doubt 'I sat in the manna infusion chamber all day' makes a worthwhile update.

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He also did some light reading.

By the by...question for all you across the ponders. Is it England or Britain? What's the difference? Seriously, this has bugged me since childhood and no one has ever explained.

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Happy to explain. The full name of my country is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island. On a map 'Great Britain' is the island on the right and 'Northern Ireland' is the bit on top of the island on the left. The full name is usually abbreviated to 'Britain', which is a bit less of a mouth full. Britain is (for most purposes) the name of the country. England is one of its constituent... Well, it's sort of a country as well, except it isn't. Same with Wales and Scotland, except that they get national assemblies/parliaments and England doesn't. Wales is the knob on the left of the island of Great Britain and Scotland is the top bit, England being the rest. It's called Great Britain not because it's wonderful but because it is bigger than the other islands in the area.

 

[Mr. Mica]

By the by...question for all you across the ponders. Is it England or Britain? What's the difference? Seriously, this has bugged me since childhood and no one has ever explained.

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I know Zoat answered too, but he made it sound confusing, so I am going to cut it out in cardboard.

Think of Britain as a federal government, made up of the countries Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and England.
But since the seat of the federal government in in the capital of England, which also happens to be the capital of Britain (It's London).
England and Britain is sometimes used interchangeably, which is confusing.

If you are still confused, then it is okay, here is a link to CGP Grey explaining, with graphics and subtitles.

 

[NemiTheNen]

If there were some magic button, that could heal all people with various inborn disabilities, it should not be held back because "It would erase their culture." Among other complaints I've heard.

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Ah, but what if they don't want it pressed? Now, admittedly, it is really weird is with the unborn. Mother doesn't want to allow the procedure, the procedure can't happen, both as the parent and as the host. That it endangers the child is meaningless because, well, abortion, endangering the unborn is not a reason to prohibit a thing.

Like, a murkier example is autism, where the better "cure" is something like greater social acceptance, and I can easily imagine there would be massive arguments about whether it's irresponsible not to screen it out, and it could lead to really shitty forms of discrimination against autism if screening became common, but if you're arguing against screening for fibromyalgia or Tay-Sachs disease in response, that's pretty shitty.

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Agreed, also I'm pretty sure (even if you could) screning for autisim and genetically fixing it would be really bad for our scientific development, considering the how a number of those autistic traits usually mean "Detail orientated and technically minded."

I'm probably mildly autistic, one of my best friends IS. If it wasn't for my depression and ADHD I'd probably be a fairly competant coder, or possibly a biochemist (organic chemistry didn't phase me in highschool). And if my friend's depression and physical disability didn't kick in, she'd be a statistician.

Basically, I think the argument comes down to people are shitty and we probably shouldn't trust them.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Think of Britain as a federal government, made up of the countries Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and England.
But since the seat of the federal government in in the capital of England, which also happens to be the capital of Britain (It's London).

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But you also have to note that England doesn't have a state level government at all and the Welsh one doesn't have anything like the same powers as the Scottish and Irish ones.

 

[Mr. Mica]

But you also have to note that England doesn't have a state level government at all and the Welsh one doesn't have anything like the same powers as the Scottish and Irish ones.

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I know, it is a mess, and pretty hard to fully grok. I was just trying to keep it simple.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I have just seen the DC television Dominators.

Why? Why would you do that?

Also, why is Supergirl's heat vision blue?

 

[zachol]

Question: Would someone from Wales be irritated if someone referred to them as being "English" or "from England"? What about someone from Scotland?
My only experience is dealing with Irish people, who've gotten a little grumpy in the past when I asked for clarification after they've said "I'm from Ireland," with the sense that "Ireland" without any qualifiers definitely means Ireland and not Northern Ireland. I don't think a Welsh person would be equally irritated if I called them "English" but maybe?

 

[Hmmaster]

I have just seen the DC television Dominators.

Why? Why would you do that?

Also, why is Supergirl's heat vision blue?

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Stylistic choice.

 

[hance1986]

I have just seen the DC television Dominators.

Why? Why would you do that?

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.... these TV Dominators look way too horror movie to me, like a budget Pumpkinhead.



The TV versions actually look too tall.

I mean yeah, from a certain point of view, Dominators do look like a alien Fu Manchu Yellow Peril expy and some people may cry 'offended!', but the Supergirl version is fucking naked.

Dominators are not I think a well known DC alien race but all the show kind of did was make them even more unrecognizable. Going by the comic versions, they seem kind of Psion-like, maybe more malevolent or antagonistic?

Failed opportunity, all around.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Question: Would someone from Wales be irritated if someone referred to them as being "English" or "from England"? What about someone from Scotland?
My only experience is dealing with Irish people, who've gotten a little grumpy in the past when I asked for clarification after they've said "I'm from Ireland," with the sense that "Ireland" without any qualifiers definitely means Ireland and not Northern Ireland. I don't think a Welsh person would be equally irritated if I called them "English" but maybe?

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Welsh has had a good deal less paramilitary violence over the last century or so that Ireland has. Nonetheless it's still wrong, as they're not English. I imagine they'd be charitable enough to let an ignorant foreigner off once without immediately punching them in the face, if that's what you're worried about.

Stylistic choice.

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Stuff like that is why I don't watch DCTV or DC Films. The weirdness of something like Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow is a stylistic choice. Naked clearly sectoid-inspired Dominators is an error.

 

[Fireball900]

Question: Would someone from Wales be irritated if someone referred to them as being "English" or "from England"? What about someone from Scotland?
My only experience is dealing with Irish people, who've gotten a little grumpy in the past when I asked for clarification after they've said "I'm from Ireland," with the sense that "Ireland" without any qualifiers definitely means Ireland and not Northern Ireland. I don't think a Welsh person would be equally irritated if I called them "English" but maybe?

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If the 'Irish' person is from Northern Ireland, they might still be annoyed at you calling them English, as they're not. They are, however, British.
Like calling a Texan a Californian. He's not, but he is American. It's just that California didn't conquer Texas - England did conquer the rest of Britain, hence the 'don't lump me in with that lot!' sentiment.
Especially with the (Greater) Irish, seeing as the occupation failed.

"Maxx Crowley of Earth, you have great rage in you-"

I told you to shut up!

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Now I'm getting the idea of you only having 'great rage' because it keeps bugging you - before the ring came along, you were a mild mannered reporter with barely any temper

 

[Evil Plan]

Spoiler: Typos

Particular given who we're fighting."

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Particularly

"Your species used to have four sexes, three involved reproduction and

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Probably "three involved in", given it's OL speaking? Not entirely sure on how I'm parsing that.

every third of fourth 'step', sort of like how running Humans

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third or fourth

"I am glad." He voice sounds slightly… African, perhaps?

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Either "his" or "her", can't tell which. Unless you're doing something very strange with the pronouns, in which case I'd like you to telegraph that fact a bit more.

Happy to explain.

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So if I'm following that correctly, England (1) is a subset of Britain, which is a governmental unit; and (2) is located on Great Britain, which is a landmass. Yes?

 

[Coda]

He voice sounds

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His

If it wasn't for my depression and ADHD I'd probably be a fairly competant coder, or possibly a biochemist (organic chemistry didn't phase me in highschool).

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It is due to my ADHD that I am a competent coder. I don't think I would have gotten this far if I didn't have the impulses to check out everything going on around me. It's frustrating to not be able to sit down and work on demand (I would make a TERRIBLE Green Lantern) but the sheer breadth of what I've learned thanks to incessant distractibility makes up for it.

It is also due to my ADHD that I have the social skills of an awkward adolescent instead of the fully-grown adult that I have been for many years.

My son's ADHD, by contrast, is far worse. He's now the age I was when I was diagnosed, and he's a much rougher spot. He's bright, but his vocal ability is a couple years delayed and his social skills are fit for a kid half his age, and it takes him so much effort to get anything done that everything is a struggle.

So between my experiences as a person and my experiences as a parent... If there was a treatment to cure ADHD in the womb, I do not know whether I would have used it on my son.

(Aside: High school organic chemistry is fun stuff indeed.)

 

[NemiTheNen]

It is due to my ADHD that I am a competent coder. I don't think I would have gotten this far if I didn't have the impulses to check out everything going on around me. It's frustrating to not be able to sit down and work on demand (I would make a TERRIBLE Green Lantern) but the sheer breadth of what I've learned thanks to incessant distractibility makes up for it.

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OH yess, I agree with that, and I don't know if it's my autisim or my ADHD that made me...take apart code when I was trying to learn it, figure out the whys and hows.

But for me, with my ADHD, or my brand of it, it makes it so so damn hard for me to sit down and LEARN it. When I was on Focalin CR I was blitzing through a Python MOOC it wasn't even funny. But then I hit a wall--loss of perscription and Python's shitty shitty refrence organization so I couldn't teach myself more.

So I'm poking around on Kotlin, thinking about C, and got a friend going "Hey, Go is cool."

It is also due to my ADHD that I have the social skills of an awkward adolescent instead of the fully-grown adult that I have been for many years.

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Sure it's not comorbidity with autisim?

My son's ADHD, by contrast, is far worse. He's now the age I was when I was diagnosed, and he's a much rougher spot. He's bright, but his vocal ability is a couple years delayed and his social skills are fit for a kid half his age, and it takes him so much effort to get anything done that everything is a struggle.

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Oh god yes I remember those feels. There are two solutions I ran into, reading a shitton of novels, and actually taking a class. I was going into massage therapy and there was a class on, well, deportment and how to deal with things if a client goes emotional vomit on you. Spelling out "This is how you behave because of X" was amazeballs, my manners improved noticeably and consistantly after one damn day.

But then, that might be the autisim.

So between my experiences as a person and my experiences as a parent... If there was a treatment to cure ADHD in the womb, I do not know whether I would have used it on my son.

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Nor do you know if he's going to be lucky and grow out of it. Given your experiances, probably not, but one can hope.

(Aside: High school organic chemistry is fun stuff indeed.)

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(Fuck yes it was, even if I don't remember any of it)

 

[Red Bovine]

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I gotta disagree. Granted Paul hasn't "developed" much, aside from being more tolerant of pissy temper tantrums (Hello Artemis!), mostly because well...he was already based on a real guy. Which always makes me laugh at the "Damn it Paul! You need to be tapping dem honry chicks more!" Like everyone is yelling at Zoat for not getting laid enough.

But beyond that...that's actually been my problem with Rene-Paul. All his development has been...well fake. He's almost completely abandoned his real self to basically play pretend. That...unnerves me. I mean he started out as basically Paul being kinda a dick, only to make a series of really bad choices, one after another, starting with shooting himself up with Venom-Buster. After that....any and all development has either been Paul lying, or being subtly brainwashed. I mean...he's lied to all of his friends, lied to everyone who works for him, and is also lying to his adopted daughter. He has championed and lived a culture that isn't his (On Apocalypse we do ----) while moving further and further from who he ACTUALLY is. I was hoping he'd start to claw it back after his episode with the Source wall but...well it hasn't happened. Perhaps not helped by the fact that all I remember of the guy he is impersonating is that he was like...a really third-rate Kyle Rayner villain. So not only is Paul impersonating someone else...he's impersonating someone who sucks.

I think that's part of why I just can't get into Rene-Paul even try to. Nothing about what he is, is actually real. Almost like watching a friend degenerate into some form of mental illness, and there isn't anything you can do to stop it.

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Okay I think I should say that the whole faking all development is a collosal exaggeration. Yes he is using the name Grayven and pretending to be him but it's extremely likely he doesn't actually act anything like Grayven since he doesn't even bother with that and just uses the name and backstory. So while he may be lying about his name and backstory he is actually pretty genuine with his interactions otherwise.

He also has had actual development despite what people say. From becoming a father to becoming less of an ass to realizing that a lot of the things he did wasn't really justified and even feeling bad about assimilation.

As for continuing impersonating Grayven, he really doesn't have a choice. He started doing it to mess with the Forever people, use it to his advantage to gain advanced tech and gain a name for himself that he could actually use without passing out. To his credit he did eventually realize it was a terrible idea but by then he gained Darkseid's attention. Even if Darkseid may know the truth he is likely either messing with him or considering having him replace the real Grayven if he proves to be better than him. But if people found out Darkseid would be obligated to act since for appearance sake since it would have got out that someone tried to fool him and that would be bad.

Another thing to remember that when he made pretty much all his decisions he was being influenced by the orange light so...

 

[HadesHerald]

Or every Clicker

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Highly unlikely, that would be (at max) a couple of generations, seeing that the genetic alterations should be passed down...

treated like left-handed writing in front of a nun.

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Please explain this phrase, I've never heard it before, and it makes little sense to me.