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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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We are three-for-three on entirely different offers that all sound good.
And all come from people of trustworthiness I would rate somewhere between "Maybe?" and "No."

That offer from the Citadelians is, I think, possibly the most valuable. The other two offered honesty and advantage. But the Citadelians are offering to change.

I do think that the Psion candidate made the best argument for keeping options-other-than-the-Controllers available - Paul is aware that he has the Ophidian backing him up, and will hopefully have the Orange Central Power Battery fueling him as well, but the Controllers may just not be willing to change for him.

I think Paul would benefit, here, from considering which candidates will please the Ophidian and help her continue to develop as a person with her own prioritized wants instead of an amalgamation of pure but unfiltered, self-consuming Want. I think that actually presenting the question to the Ophidian in a way that will make sense to her will eventually end up with something along the lines of, "This is your job, Agent." or "Can we make a Corps and make them all join on our terms instead?"

... Actually, with the Ophidian and the Orange Central Power Battery the answer to that second question may well be yes. With the Embodiment of Want and a massive font of Orange Light and an army of orange constructs/rings, Paul may be able to establish the OLC as an independent entity worth allying with in its own right. Sure, he might accidentally cause a schism in the Controllers between the faction which wants his support even if it means tweaking their plans and the faction that refuses to tweak their plans just to obtain his support... But, well, that also seems like potentially a rather good way to sort the Controllers into 'assholes' and 'not assholes'.
 
Red Bovine said:
I think the writers have situations like that not to show that some heroes don't need powers to be super but to show that even without powers some super heroes are still badasses without them.
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I really have no interest in heroes without powers. It bores me to tears. Plus then writers always go out of their way to make the Supers look bad so that the little normals actually look like they belong. People like Batman, Punisher, Green arrow and the like....I just...I just can't respect them or take them seriously. Punisher especially...guy with guns...whooo. Don't let him get around people with powers, especially if Garth Ennis is at the helm. Exercise in fucking stupidity.



stsword said:
Maybe because Wonder Woman isn't really Greek.

Golden Age the Amazons were their own country (Amazonia) that made the kingdoms of ancient Greece look like third world countries.

Then when they moved to their new home Athena gave them a crystal ball that allows them to see the past, present and future, with which they not only made themselves the most technically advanced country in the world but they learned charles atlas psychic powers like all of Wonder Woman's powers.

And if they could do that, they probably took liberally from all the martial arts in the world past present and future too.

Like some Greek myths, in some legends the Amazons were Greek, in others they were from Libya. Like comic book writers, ancient myth makers were fine with contradicting each other. :)

Post Crisis the Amazons are the reincarnated souls of random women murdered by men reborn from clay. At least one of them was a neanderthal, and Hippolyta was a cave woman, Diana was the reincarnation of the baby in her belly when the caveman murdered his pregnant mate.

In that continuity the Amazons were recreated in Greece but since they all remembered their entire lives the techniques they already knew are more likely to contribute to their fighting style than their Greek neighbors.

And since the Amazons in that continuity all have superhuman strength and speed they probably formed their own martial techniques appropriate for a people capable of breaking steel with their bare hands and bullet time reflexes instead of learning martial techniques from the vastly slower and weaker Greeks around them.

Not to mention that in that continuity Amazons have invulnerability to blunt force trauma, so a boxer with human strength is no threat whatsoever, so I don't see those techniques impressing them much. But swords and spears and arrows can pierce their skin, so weapon training would probably be taken more seriously.

Post Flashpoint, well maybe someone who is fan knows how their origins might have changed.

Now here in this fic Amazons in which Amazons don't have powers and one certainly gets the impression that they have a deeper connection to ancient Greece than the norm, Amazons might have boxing and pankration in their skill set.

But Zoat emphasises wrestling for the superstrong, so Wonder Woman isn't likely to have Diana floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee.
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I...have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I mention boxing because of it's grecian roots, but more as a substitute for the chick-fu I see her doing a lot. What do I mean by that? Oh you know, lots of flippy jumping around crap with tons of awkward high kicks to show off the legs. No idea what she's doing in the new movie, but I"m betting on some chick-fu. Plus...damn but could the actress have bothered to hit the gym? She's so scrawny.

Grappling against super durable opponents just makes sense. Zoat has already pointed out a lot of the flaws so I don't have to. But their joints/veins/oxygen intake is still vulnerable. Plus its a great way to control people, to inflict harm, or to end a fight without much harm. Putting someone to sleep is waaaay easier on the body/brain then getting knocked out and all the TBI that incurs.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
Plus...damn but could the actress have bothered to hit the gym? She's so scrawny.
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Reminds me of when I first saw her in costume: 'Alright, not a bad design and she more or less looks the part, but she's going to hit the gym before you start filming, right? Oh. That's... A post production picture. Oh.'
I...have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
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Diana's origin story has changed a lot over the years. Golden Age Diana came from a technologically advanced society and her abilities were supposedly the result of intense physical conditioning rather than divine heritage.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
but more as a substitute for the chick-fu I see her doing a lot. What do I mean by that? Oh you know, lots of flippy jumping around crap with tons of awkward high kicks to show off the legs. No idea what she's doing in the new movie, but I"m betting on some chick-fu.
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So I'm not the only one who thinks those superfluous flips and ridiculous spin moves look dumb? I was starting to think so, considering that they keep coming showing up in movies even though every time I see someone do a two second spin as a wind up for a left hand straight I begin to question the competence of all involved parties. The unnecessary flips are even worse.
 
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Mr Zoat said:
Reminds me of when I first saw her in costume: 'Alright, not a bad design and she more or less looks the part, but she's going to hit the gym before you start filming, right? Oh. That's... A post production picture. Oh.'
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There is a movie poster up at work, I've been seeing it for months. What got me wasn't really the lack of bulk, but any definition. I mean come on! She's supposed to be the greatest of the Amazon's. Not a model.

argentorum said:
So I'm not the only one who things those superfluous flips and ridiculous spin moves look dumb? I was starting to think so, considering that they keep coming showing up in movies even though every time I see someone do a two second spin as a wind up for a left hand straight I begin to question the competence of all involved parties. The unnecessary flips are even worse.
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Speaking as an actual Martial artist...yeah, it's stupid, and pointless. Especially the whole diving flip over the person only to kick them in the back. Ugh....

You see it used a lot when the actress couldn't be bothered to actually learn how to do anything, train to make their body perform it, and/or have a decent choreographer. See Xena, Buffy, and the like.

I think one of my favorites, i.e. annoys me the most, is the bent knee high kick. When they are trying to kick higher then the opponent's knee but clearly don't have the flexibility to actually do it.
 
varoksa said:
would grayven let lynne hang out with the team? it seems like a good idea.
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How..? So..? He wants her to have as normal a childhood as possible. Or at least have a chance at it. Hanging out in a different mountain with some other atypical people doesn't help with that.
BulletproofIdea said:
Zoat, I know you're not a fan of Teen Titans, but with all this Zamaranian business will Val Yor be showing up?
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Probably not. I don't hate the character, but I'm barely aware of him.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
Plus...damn but could the actress have bothered to hit the gym? She's so scrawny.
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Mr Zoat said:
Reminds me of when I first saw her in costume: 'Alright, not a bad design and she more or less looks the part, but she's going to hit the gym before you start filming, right? Oh. That's... A post production picture. Oh.'
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To be fair to Gal Gadot, she did put on 17 pounds of muscle for the role, and served as a combat instructor in the IDF before she became a model. She looks much less skinny when you put her next to the other actors, and you realize that she'd bigger than you thought due to being quite tall for a woman.

I mean, she's beside Ann Wolfe, the professional boxer, and she doesn't look ridiculously out of place fighting her, like Summer Glau or Sarah Michelle Gellar would.

As for combat in WW, they used the same stunt/choreography team as 300, and while not always realistic, it was fairly similar to 300 absurdity rather than any gender related "chick-fu." As far as I can recall, most of her attacks are simply barreling over people, straight punches, or sword swings, with her more ridiculous stuff obviously involving her super strength. It's actually the best female superhero combat I've seen, hands down. She's choreographed like Captain American rather than Black Widow, Gamora, or any of Joss Whedon's waif-fu specialists.

I think that's enough digression into WW, so I'll go back to lurking then.
 
Diomedon said:
To be fair to Gal Gadot, she did put on 17 pounds of muscle for the role, and served as a combat instructor in the IDF before she became a model. She looks much less skinny when you put her next to the other actors, and you realize that she'd bigger than you thought due to being quite tall for a woman.

I mean, she's beside Ann Wolfe, the professional boxer, and she doesn't look ridiculously out of place fighting her, like Summer Glau or Sarah Michelle Gellar would.

As for combat in WW, they used the same stunt/choreography team as 300, and while not always realistic, it was fairly similar to 300 absurdity rather than any gender related "chick-fu." As far as I can recall, most of her attacks are simply barreling over people, straight punches, or sword swings, with her more ridiculous stuff obviously involving her super strength. It's actually the best female superhero combat I've seen, hands down. She's choreographed like Captain American rather than Black Widow, Gamora, or any of Joss Whedon's waif-fu specialists.

I think that's enough digression into WW, so I'll go back to lurking then.
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Admittedly it is hard to actually get really cut without...ahem...supplements, and Diana really doesn't look like any woman you're likely to find.

I'm still debating watching the film. I'm honestly not the biggest Wonder Woman fan and....I really can't sit through another Diana/Steve Trevor origin thingy. I've seen it animated like...4 times now I think. Still...after Marvel took a big crap on all us long time fans with ANAD (Marvel pulled a DC...never thought I'd see the day they would do what they had been praised for not doing.) I sort of want to reward DC.

Not sure how big Ms Godat is, but I was interested when I heard of her military background. I skipped Superman Vs Batman, which I heard a lot of praise for her from, because I figured paying 12 bucks for a movie 30 seconds long is a big much to ask. People keep saying it's like 3 hours but that baffles me. What could they possibly fill the time with after Bruce gets splattered?
 
Crimson Doom said:
A lot of the movie is politics and set-up for the fight/later movies, and the way the fight is arranged, Superman doesn't actually want to kill Batman. The movie isn't operating under Death Battle rules or anything.
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Yes yes...I'm sure the movie goes through all the torturous laps of logic to explain why Bruce isn't smashed in milliseconds. But I already hate Batman with the burning fury of a thousand suns...do I really need more?
 
Maxx Crowley said:
I'm still debating watching the film. I'm honestly not the biggest Wonder Woman fan and....I really can't sit through another Diana/Steve Trevor origin thingy. I've seen it animated like...4 times now I think. Still...after Marvel took a big crap on all us long time fans with ANAD (Marvel pulled a DC...never thought I'd see the day they would do what they had been praised for not doing.) I sort of want to reward DC.
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It is similar to the 2009 animated movie, and similar in structure but not theme or tone to the first Cap movie, but in a way that totally works. Gadot is ridiculously good, in my opinion; she sells the "fish out of water" elements to her character quite well, and the fact that they use that element to contrast the moral dilemma of war is particularly satisfying.

Anyway, I'm hoping that we get out of this odd chapter where everyone seems to suddenly have an offer to make to Paul.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"Aaaah." He thinks for a moment. "Pride demands that I say 'yes'. But… Honesty demands I say 'no'. However, I imagine that they would want a controlling share in exchange for their help. In fact, if another Maltusian group were like the Guardians… I doubt that they'd demand less than absolute sovereignty. We Psions would regard it simply as an improvement on our relationship with the Citadel; run your organisation as you wish."
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I think this is the best deal offered. Unlike the others, I can believe the Psion is legitimately uninterested in ruling, and is perfectly happy researching all day. Plus, the ring offers very detailed information about a species without the whole vivisection thing.
Maxx Crowley said:
I really have no interest in heroes without powers. It bores me to tears. Plus then writers always go out of their way to make the Supers look bad so that the little normals actually look like they belong. People like Batman, Punisher, Green arrow and the like....I just...I just can't respect them or take them seriously. Punisher especially...guy with guns...whooo. Don't let him get around people with powers, especially if Garth Ennis is at the helm. Exercise in fucking stupidity.
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I think the most realistic portrayal of a hero without powers is the beginning of Kick-Ass. Where the guy goes out to stop a mugging or whatever it was, then immediately gets stabbed and hit with a car. In DC, the non-powered people basically have to have unacknowledged powers like no one ever trying to kill them or inhuman durability that no one mentions. Artemis and Robin going for more than a month without serious injury is just insane.
Maxx Crowley said:
I...have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
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He's talking about comic nonsense. Just nod your head and smile.
 
Hmmaster said:
It is similar to the 2009 animated movie, and similar in structure but not theme or tone to the first Cap movie, but in a way that totally works. Gadot is ridiculously good, in my opinion; she sells the "fish out of water" elements to her character quite well, and the fact that they use that element to contrast the moral dilemma of war is particularly satisfying.

Anyway, I'm hoping that we get out of this odd chapter where everyone seems to suddenly have an offer to make to Paul.
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Didn't they just do another animated one? Or you know what, they might have just re-released the 2009 one. Moving on!

Well Paul does have the
Ophidian's heart sitting inside of him. Which brings out people's desires...and boy oh boy do these people want stuff. Honestly? I think it's a bad idea all around.


I mean, maybe...MAYBE he can get a good soldier out of the Gordanian. But letting a Psion have access to a power ring...to say nothing about arming the Citadel with them....Oi...

On the plus side OL already knows they are all kind of planning to flat out kill him and steal his rings if he won't play ball, so he can plan around their plans. With Larfleeze waiting in the wings I don't think it's likely but...perhaps Ophi-chan might make an entrance and show these fools what real power is.

Though that makes me wonder....I think it was stated that Paul would rather "save" Larfleeze if possible, so I'm wondering if the assault might just call for a merger.
 
Mr Zoat said:
How..? So..? He wants her to have as normal a childhood as possible. Or at least have a chance at it. Hanging out in a different mountain with some other atypical people doesn't help with that.
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The Young Justice team would probably object to Grayven's team calling them atypical. I imagine them pointing out that they go to school like normal kids, and Aqualad pointing out how he doesn't have gills anymore, and Megan literally basing her persona off an old sticom's version of a 'normal earth girl', and Lynne just calling them weird anyways.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
Yes yes...I'm sure the movie goes through all the torturous laps of logic to explain why Bruce isn't smashed in milliseconds. But I already hate Batman with the burning fury of a thousand suns...do I really need more?
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I mean, if it helps, the "Batman" in BvSDoJ is about as authentic as a seven-dollar bill, what with him shooting people in the face and blasting cars (and their occupants) into fiery chunks with Batmobile-mounted autocannon fire. Also, his habit of infiltrating jails, fucking branding the criminals lucky enough to survive him with a Bat symbol, and running a secret conspiracy within the prison population whose members torture and kill anyone who has one of those brands. He's essentially a mixture of Frank Miller Batman at his most psychotic, the Punisher, and The Shadow with less subtlety.

Also, Superman comes across like Scion, so that's a fascinating exercise in fucking up a character to the point where they become their own deconstruction.

The rest of it is incessant dream sequences, overblown expository nonsense, and Jesse Eisenberg auditioning for a role as the Riddler because apparently no one bothered informing him he's supposed to be Lex Luthor. Ms. Godot gets praise because she's the only person who isn't either handing in a bizarre/stupid/insane performance or being forced to act like a lunatic by the script (aside from poor Jeremy Irons, who gets even less screen time.)

It's a shitshow, is what I'm saying.
 
Oh I figured they were going to go Full Miller the second they used that Dark knight quote at Comic-con.

Honestly, I've been rather surprised that Batman has been...well the most reasonable I've ever seen him portrayed in this story. Not...too pleased with how Clark handled Superboy, though I know its in line with YJ canon, but Batman not being a raging prick who appoints himself the ultimate moral authority on everything has sort of thrown me.

Yet at the same time when Zoat mentioned Paul and Batman becoming estranged or however he put it does give me hope that they'll go...knuckle to knuckle so to speak. Nothing would please me more than to watch Orange Lantern put Brucey boy in his place. I'm rather hoping the quote didn't pertain to Grayven or something.

I doubt Paul is actually going to kick Batman's ass, but like rooting for Kon to ditch the martian for some Orange Parfait'....one can dream.
 
Honestly despite everything being said to OL being possible complete bullshit, it's super refreshing to see people have the right attitude towards power rings.

"Oh shit that's a power ring. Can I have one? What do you want for one? We really want power rings."

Practically no one on Earth showed any interest in one.
 
Empiricist2 said:
I think this is the best deal offered. Unlike the others, I can believe the Psion is legitimately uninterested in ruling, and is perfectly happy researching all day. Plus, the ring offers very detailed information about a species without the whole vivisection thing.
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It's not better than getting the backing of the Controllers.
King of Frost said:
Honestly despite everything being said to OL being possible complete bullshit, it's super refreshing to see people have the right attitude towards power rings.

"Oh shit that's a power ring. Can I have one? What do you want for one? We really want power rings."

Practically no one on Earth showed any interest in one.
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Jade did, I'm pretty sure.
So that'll be fun when he gets back, because then we get more Jade, and I really like that pairing.
A hell of a lot more than that annoying Superboy thing that is sometimes pushed.
 
King of Frost said:
Honestly despite everything being said to OL being possible complete bullshit, it's super refreshing to see people have the right attitude towards power rings.

"Oh shit that's a power ring. Can I have one? What do you want for one? We really want power rings."

Practically no one on Earth showed any interest in one.
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Yeah...that made no sense. Unless some universal rule is forcing them to adhere to to their theme. I'll give Robin a pass because of how Paul's ring nearly Larfleeze'd him. As for Jade...I think she just pulled a "I just want to be normal" thing. Oh how I loathe that.

Who else has he offered? He kind of offered Cornwall Boy before he left.

Krain said:
A hell of a lot more than that annoying Superboy thing that is sometimes pushed.
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HERETIC!!
 
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