I'm kind of curious what the SI's rationale for not interfering in this sort of conflict is.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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Exactly. OL would have likely done something similar if he intervened, except he'd have been more diplomatic when talking about it with Guy, and avoided killing not because he has qualms on the matter but because he's trying to avoid stepping on the League's toes for now.
It's both generally taboo among superheroes and something the JL is specifically forbidden to do. And OL's still under their authority, if not a member.
daimahou
Hear... Feel... Think...
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- 「 」
one of the "how"s is unneeded
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- madison
It would be a significant expenditure of political capital to help people he doesn't really care about. I mean sure he cares about them in an abstract kind of way, but they are not part of his ingroup so as an Orange lantern that means he's not really going to stick his neck out for them. He's mostly focused on uplifting humanity to the point that things like darfur just don't happen anymore.
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Thank you, corrected.
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- Oblivion
They probably aren't going to be given much of a choice.
China, Israel, Russia, along side various Middle East and African countries would realistically all demand he be taken out out of fear that he will do the same to them.
And this would be done because he has now shown that at any time he could arbitrarily decide a country's government is evil attack them.
I hope you meant "magic-using Ponies", otherwise this sentence has a ... mildly disturbing meaning.
Nobody is in a position to make them do anything.
On the contrary. China, Israel, Russia, alongside various Middle Eastern and African countries would realistically not give a shit. They'd likely all try to keep a closer eye on him, but other than that I doubt they'd bother to expend political capital on someone dealing with an unambiguously terrible clusterfuck of a situation.
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Even if this gets pinned on him I doubt people will jump from "collapsed a genocidal regime" to "he's coming for us next!". If he made a habit of it then people might worry, but I doubt many countries will care about somone shooting the worst dictators until he shoots one that was in there pocket.
The_Letter_K
Certified Character
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- ...IJ_LM...
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Dun't lyke dun't reed lul.
But seriously, this is is nice post, even if I don't agree with all the contents. Allow me to try to reply in kind? I expect I won't be alone, so hopefully I can bring something to the discussion.
This is a fault of the story's pacing. Very soon, the SI will be moving away from the Earth, and stepping into, as you put it, a bigger pond. This is gonna be a few more months (?) for us though, so maybe come back in a year and give it a read through again. The pacing might be better when you aren't reading it an update at a time.
I actually put together a post on this subject a while back. It's a common complaint, and quite justified. My position may just be wishful thinking, but it's worth considering. Link.
Hoooo boy. Dunno how to help you here. DC is a mess, and trying to make it make sense is a chore, yes, but I think the story does a fair job of it. That's all I can say about that.
You're sure not alone here. I personally enjoy these segments, but I can understand why people dislike them. Not really worth commenting on other than to say, "to each his own".
It seems to me that most all of your arguments boil down to differing flavors and applications of your first two points, the SI being too competent, and too proactive. I'm sorry to say, these are sort of the selling points of the story. They're starting to get out of hand, but these are really just growing pains as the story moves into it's second phase.
Is the SI starting to get too big for his pond? Yes, but he's about to be tossed into the black, and he's going to need this support structure he's building here on Earth to stand a chance against threats on a cosmic scale. It's worth mentioning most of these characters won't be at hand to help, either, giving him a chance to bring one or two along and get some real interaction in.
Is the SI as a character somewhat frustrating? Yes. He's ignoring his friends, manipulating people's lives, and generally playing games he maybe shouldn't. He practically acts like he owns John and Sephtian. He's insane, though. Like, really. These are symptoms of his insanity. He treats them as normal and doesn't comment, and so neither does the story, but this is madness, and it should make you somewhat uncomfortable. It's just, the way the narrative is structured, you, the reader, are meant to notice and not need telling.
(I find it rather fascinating to view different thoughts and perspectives, it's why I read at all, really, so this is right up my alley.)
So congrats, a large portion of the reader base think's there's nothing wrong with Paul, they've been drawn in by his viewpoint. You've got the right of it, in my opinion. Whether that's something worth reading about is left to you to decide, but I think the things you're complaining about are rather the point. I personally recommend you come back in a year, and see how the "Space Stage" treats you. I'm hoping for something great.
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Taisei
Conglomeration of past failures
Ahh... teaching impressionable youth about the joys of utilitarian justice.
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Wall of text *generally refers to instances of Quantity over Quality, which this particular review is. When offering any criticism you should be precise, especially when you are being almost entirely negative. This appears to be a essay review masquerading as a bullet list. It was somewhat exhausting to read, and that can cause people to dismiss it.
If you don't mind, I would like to try streamlining it for you.
Article: An Open Letter:
When [Humble] dropped this story, [He] maintained hope that it could improve. Mr Zoat has proven his writing skill daily for years, and could have proven it once more. Unfortunately, upon [His] return [He] found out he had not.
Before I [Humble] continue, [He] would like to congratulate Mr Zoat: [He has] been reading for almost a year, and this story quickly and this story quickly enthralled [Him], a competent SI in a DC setting [He] love? Daily updates? [He] threw [Himself] into reading and loved it. [Humble] aspire to be a professional writer one day, and this, and its author, have for the longest time been displays of just why that is.
Article:
Article: Which is part of why [Humble is] so disappointed that [He] cannot stick around anymore. While Zoat has taken an incredible world, and expanded it in amazing ways beyond its canon constraints, he has lost [Humble] with the characters. articlearticlearticlearticle
{This section became somewhat unfocused in the original, and I had difficulty focusing enough to comprehend. That may be because of my ADHD. I think I covered many of the points raised in my previous dot points though.}
- The SI is to competent, without native characters gaining the same rise of competence in any areas.
- The SI has to many advantages that other characters lack: money, power, charisma, technology, transportation, instant empowerment formulas, meta knowledge, allies and possibly more.
- He has eclipsed the canon characters: the Team have become nothing more than a supporting cast for The Orange Lantern ShowTM.
- It feels like any villain that shows up will either disappear completely from the narrative between attacks (Truggs) or be beaten down whenever the SI turns their attention on them (The League of Shadows and Queen Bee - Notably both her defeats happened off screen)
- Characters haven't developed beyond power ups given by OL (and some of those haven't been focused on much either: Robin's super strength)
- Canon characters have been butterflied due to SI competence (Blue Beetle III: a central character in season two)
(The Renegade/MLP/Death Note: Pretty much summarizes what has been brought up in thread previously, and Lynne is amazing.)
In summary: [Humble] enjoyed this story for the better part of a year, and [he] still believes that Zoat is an amazing storyteller and would gladly read other projects or original material. With This Ring has reached the end of its life for [Him], and [He] would not have much positive emotions if [He] forced [Himself] to remain.
While writing this I noted that Humble H Dweller realized the essay-like nature of his criticism before posting. My advice? If you realize something like that, go back and edit. I went back through this post and edited all of the "I" "My" type pronouns to clarify that I was presenting from another's point of view.
I also noted that I actually agree with a large number of points, I'm not loosing interest in the story, but I have lost interest in the characters. I fear that if the story changes focus from uplifting to character driven or a lengthy (single) story arc, I might become fatigued and lose interest for that duration, similar to what happened with Doctor Who and Supernatural.
Funnily enoght, this was something I had in mind when I started writing this: and then I completely forgot about it. Thank you for reminding me.
Again, thank you. That post pretty much summarizes why I hate most Rational!Fics: they pretty much require robotic main characters or a non-first-person perspective in order to avoid unreliable narrator. Robot Protagonist is boring, and Third Person wouldn't really work with a Rational!Fic.
First post since I made my account, I was planning on going back through the Story Only section soon (meant to do it when we caught up after the move, but life got rough) and planning on going back through this thread too. I like looking at other peoples opinions. I'm not going to touch the SB forums. Probably.
Edit 7: *Added a word.
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See Grayven, regardless of what you do, by allowing this to happen you've proven how much of a terrible father you are. You've basically thrown Lynne moral compass into the fire pit and pissed on the ashes. It doesn't matter if by adult standards it was a logical choice, because you're dealing with a child here, they're easy to break and need a good structure (giving them free reign to decide life and death is very much not that), otherwise they tend to grow up with issues. In Lynne case this would have been especially important since she was already pretty broken, but I guess w/e this is was more important.
What's sad is that you don't even realize what you're doing. You can't even see why she doesn't care about people her own age (or people in general who aren't gods), while teaching her that humans are merely bugs that she can squash if she so wishes. How do reconcile your wishes for her future with how you're treating her (as an adult with a well developed morality who's able to stoically evaluate good and bad and not be changed by her actions) baffles me greatly.
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He told Guy.
Guy will tell the Justice League because Grayven just sent a bunch of kids to murder people, and possibly the Guardians.
The Justice League will have to tell the UN something because if they somehow don't already know they are going to be panicking over this unknown threat and panicky countries cause wars.
I'm not sure it was the best response, but it *definitely* wasn't the worst possible. I agree with your position.
Cherico
Machine
by apocoliptian standards he's actually a pretty good father.
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Well I'm sure that by Darkseid standards Hitler stands at the epitome of goodness, so that's not exactly a point in Grayven's favor.
And the thing is, he doesn't really have an excuse like "but I didn't know better", he should he wasn't actually born on Apokolips, his ego and zealous belief in utilitarianism is what's blinding him to the horrible flaying he's performing on the remains of Lynne morality, sure it's not SHADE gratuitous evil, but it's very much insidious.
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threat? what threat? somone with superpowers ended a massive bloody conflict. That's at most a possible threat until more information is gathered. They live in a world where you can expect to see a handful of demonic incursions a year and an invading alien armada every few decades, they already deal with significantly more dangerous threats.
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Someone with superpowers just decided to unilaterally kill several important people and disarm an entire region because he disagreed with what was going on. What if he turns to us next?
That's the threat people are going to see.
The JL didn't go after Teth Adom Paragonside when he outright massacred the supporters of that dictator. That was a lot scarier and bloodier than what Grayven did.
And then he ripped Queen Bee in half on camera. And he responded to Intergang's arrival by sticking their severed heads on poles.
If they aren't going to go after Adom for what he did they aren't likely to go after Grayven for Darfur.
And then he ripped Queen Bee in half on camera. And he responded to Intergang's arrival by sticking their severed heads on poles.
If they aren't going to go after Adom for what he did they aren't likely to go after Grayven for Darfur.
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remember, this is not mainline dc comics. Politicians are allowed to react in more than just the worst possible way. Neither the intent nor capabilities they demonstrated where particularly scary. Removing all weapons? worrying but it's no suburb swallowing helmouth, assassinating 3 members of a 3rd world country? pft, any of the dozen or so costumed mercs could have done that and about half of them could have done it cleanly.
Yes the CIA will be worried, but that's literally there job. There are bigger fish to fry than an A to B list metahuman group deciding to end a civil war. Unless this becomes a habit most of them won't care, Hell even if it does become a habit so long as they make a public announcement that they will only intervene in genocides most people would still be ok with it. Countries are not so easily spooked as you think, and they are well used to dealing with bizarre occurrences.
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Omelet, Eggs, Learning Opportunity™, etc etc.
It is a sad thing Zoat does not link omakes anymore. This is funny, and the last one was really good too.
So the English are linguistic Hipsters! At least the French are consistent in their snobbishness.
*sigh*
I guess it's that time again. Y'all grab Zoat while I put on my Tarrin' an Featherin' overalls.
Besides the Thinking Cap, the Implants that Psimon had, and OL scanned.
It sounds more like The Power Cosmic™ if it can use its potential ability to do work in a variety of ways based on intent. Sort of like the ability of the emotional spectrum really.
Don't entirely agree with you about this about this story, but I can see it happening where a story just isn't holding your attention anymore. As exit reviews go (which are a rare breed anyway) this is a good one, honest without blaming.
However, I think "He's too proactive." is NOT something you should ever say about a protagonist. I think the story would be better if there was some focus on more than just OL, so we could see more of the others. That does not mean OL should be doing less, but that the rest of the team could use more screen time.
I disagree with a lot of it, but also feel like many other characters we have been introduced to have fallen by the wayside.
Ditto.
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