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The Slave Who Makes Free: An Anakin Skywalker Quest

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Skippy said:
They say it could be considered a weakness, but then go on to give an argument for why it isn't a weakness for Anakin. That isn't really the same thing. I also think the framing of "does not have any weaknesses" is itself a bit wrong when the form itself is notably slightly lacklustre without Force abilities. This is something I go into in the post so I won't reiterate it here.
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You are misconstruing what I was meaning to say here. To put it bluntly, Anakin is likely to turn it into less of a disadvantage, when you compare him to the average Jedi. He is quite literally, built different. The form itself isn't weak or strong without the force, as per canon. It takes from all the other styles that preceded it, diluted them all down, and then molded it together into one cohesive whole. This means that as I previously stated very clearly, it has no weaknesses or strengths as it's own thing. Now when you add force powers to the mix, then it actually gets a lot of it's "kick". But let's be perfectly honest with ourselves, the other styles don't just stay away from using the force in battle, that would be stupid for Jedi to do, considering that's their whole thing. Niman simply doesn't commit to anything, which means in place of this physical commitment with your lightsaber you're instead leveraging the force because you have that opportunity where other styles would not.

In short, this is the trade off. It has no weaknesses or strengths. Which is a weakness, ironically enough. But this lack of comittment lets users of Niman slot in "The Force" as it's commitment. Am I making myself clear to you?
 
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  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by Kirook on Jun 2, 2024 at 1:02 PM, finished with 436 posts and 236 votes.
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  • Voting
    • According to Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig, if a duelist dedicated himself exclusively to Form VI, he could expect to study the style for at least ten years before achieving mastery. I'm not sure how old Anakin is exactly atm but I'm assuming he's between 9-14. That gives us 5-10 years to practice Niman if we don't change styles at some point before the clone wars. I'm assuming (possibly unjustifiably) that the questers aren't going to always focus on practicing so I'm guessing we'd probably be adequate - barely expert by the time Geonosis happens? Just some random guessing while I wait for the next chapter.
     
    Deadly Snark said:
    I suspect that a hybridization of Niman and Djem-So wouldn't look all that different from, well again, Darth Vader's fighting style in the Marvel Comics.

    The ones that demonstrate how Vader compensated for his lost speed and agility, and inability to use Force Lightning with a mastery of Telekinesis. Ragdolling people and vehicles around, shielding himself from blasts and explosives and just straight up grabbing anyone and anything that dared to fuck with him and either crushing them then and there or pulling them in for a personal touch.

    All of it done with the precise ultra-violence of a master of Djem-So.

    Less mature and mastered certainly, but fairly similar.
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    It's possible, but as I've said before, I think it will be a challenge to marry two fighting styles with such different emphases and get something more than the sum of its parts rather than a compromise. This in no way means "impossible", but I think Darth Vader is setting the bar fairly high in terms of the level of mastery it takes.

    In terms of ideas for making this better, using the Force for physical enhancement might jive more with Form V's emphasis on commitment and physical power, rather than trying to balance the multiple spinning plates of Form V and Form VI's emphasis on Force techniques.

    Epsilon Rose said:
    I feel like you're the one contradicting what the GM said here. Niman being against Anakin's natural inclination means that it's not the choice he'd normally think of, because of it's reputation, not that it doesn't line up with his natural talents. Quite the contrary, he says it's the favored form of powerful force users and Anakin is the definition of a powerful force user.
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    If you look at my wording, I didn't actually say that Form VI does not line up with his natural talents, just that they're only mentioned for Form V and II. Obviously Form VI lets Anakin leverage his strong connection to the Force more heavily, this is not really in contention I think. But in context of the post this was replying to, "natural talent" is explicitly referring to lightsaber fighting, not using the Force. The only forms where Anakin is mentioned to have a comparative advantage in this context are Forms VI and II.

    Also, I don't think "natural inclination" necessarily just means reputation here. Anakin's natural inclination is directness as seen by his faculty for Form V; taking a deliberately balanced, flexible and conservative approach is probably more difficult for him.
     
    Mishar said:
    According to Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig, if a duelist dedicated himself exclusively to Form VI, he could expect to study the style for at least ten years before achieving mastery. I'm not sure how old Anakin is exactly atm but I'm assuming he's between 9-14. That gives us 5-10 years to practice Niman if we don't change styles at some point before the clone wars. I'm assuming (possibly unjustifiably) that the questers aren't going to always focus on practicing so I'm guessing we'd probably be adequate - barely expert by the time Geonosis happens? Just some random guessing while I wait for the next chapter.
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    I mean Anakin is the chosen one I assume the rules would be a bit different for him.
     
    This might be a bit out of our league for the moment and possibly not mesh well with lightsaber dueling, but I was wondering if we could study tutaminis to use our off hand to parry or even grab a lightsaber blade. Certain dueling manuals in the real world have certain (if rare) situations where this is possible and it would certainly catch a lightsaber wielder off guard.

    Many skills, such as a simple body shielding or as advanced as catching and/or dispelling lightning or a lightsaber blade with one's bare hand, were all considered applications of tutaminis. With additional effort, after absorbing a blaster bolt or Force power, the user could utilize the absorbed energy to heal his or her wounds or manifest other Force powers. Tutaminis was also described as a non-harmful force drain.

    Again this might be unrealistic, as with Niman it's a basic force power that only really starts to come into its own with a lot of dedication to the power. But it is very interesting and possibly something that both might help with Form VI and be something the Jedi wouldn't see as dangerous for Anakin to learn.
     
    About the whole "nii man" debacle.
    Niiman is the "jack of all trades" fighting style thatnis basically "the less intense moves off all previous styles". & "The one that is easier to use force abilities mid saber fight".

    So instead of anakin going "overwelming force enhanced slashing" we have "i am going to use the Excessive force powers in my blood to kick your ass, while occasionally stabbing you in the face"
     
    Skippy said:
    Also, I don't think "natural inclination" necessarily just means reputation here. Anakin's natural inclination is directness as seen by his faculty for Form V; taking a deliberately balanced, flexible and conservative approach is probably more difficult for him.
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    The name, reputation, and how long it typically takes to master were the explicit reasons that were given for it not being Anakin's first inclination.

    Kirook said:
    Given the name and its reputation as "the diplomat's form", as well as the fact that it might take a long time to produce the results he's looking for, it likely isn't Anakin's first inclination to study.
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    I'd agree that Anakin's natural preference for direct approaches is probably part of that, but I'd categorize that under "reputation" rather than a more meaningful setback. After all, Force blasting your opponents into the nearest wall is a pretty direct solution that will work on most people.

    Put another way, Niman is probably the best path for walking up to someone and inflicting sufficient amounts of blunt force trauma. That sounds like an agreeably direct solution to me.

    Edit: @Kirook Now that the voting's over, I'm curious about what you would have done if Juyo had one, if you wouldn't mind telling us. I know it didn't even come close, but a large part of why I'm asking is because I'd like to know if you're OK with us reading into the flavor text of a vote like that or if it would have been annoying for you if that option had actually gone somewhere.
     
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    Skippy said:
    It's possible, but as I've said before, I think it will be a challenge to marry two fighting styles with such different emphases and get something more than the sum of its parts rather than a compromise. This in no way means "impossible", but I think Darth Vader is setting the bar fairly high in terms of the level of mastery it takes.

    In terms of ideas for making this better, using the Force for physical enhancement might jive more with Form V's emphasis on commitment and physical power, rather than trying to balance the multiple spinning plates of Form V and Form VI's emphasis on Force techniques.
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    I think Aspiring for the level of mastery Vader reached, without you know all the massacres and genocides, is as good as a goal as any.
     
    alexthealright said:
    Most of our enemies are going to be droids for a while, I'm all for crushing things but windpipes aren't going to be one of them.
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    from what i understand violently crushing someones escape pod vs force choking is a serious and metaphysical difference between neutral and dark uses of the force. one is using unalive matter on some zen-at-war style "you are not swinging a sword. they have merely moved themselves into the metal of the blade" bullshit, vs actively using emotion to remove breath from something alive, cutting them off from the force.

    per word of god: "Strangulation is always a theme. Life is breath. It's a powerful idea in Buddhism: Cutting off life is cutting off breath. The road to the Force is through the breath."
     
    aomeng said:
    from what i understand violently crushing someones escape pod vs force choking is a serious and metaphysical difference between neutral and dark uses of the force. one is using unalive matter on some zen-at-war style "you are not swinging a sword. they have merely moved themselves into the metal of the blade" bullshit, vs actively using emotion to remove breath from something alive, cutting them off from the force.

    per word of god: "Strangulation is always a theme. Life is breath. It's a powerful idea in Buddhism: Cutting off life is cutting off breath. The road to the Force is through the breath."
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    That's quite interesting but what I meant was that Droids don't need to breathe and therefore have no windpipe.
     
    Deadly Snark said:
    I think Aspiring for the level of mastery Vader reached, without you know all the massacres and genocides, is as good as a goal as any.
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    Vader was obviously cheating in a combination of being in essentially, a torture suit designed to let him flex the dark side into previously unheard of levels of Swole.

    arms range of motion locked by suit? choke
    handicapped by mental trauma? choke range unlimited
    sad he cant do spinning? no need when choke targets everyone and everything now
     
    Does Vader even use the choke in serious fights? I think it's more of a showy fear factor move than anything you'd use against other force users or threatening amounts of soldiers.
     
    MoonSerpent said:
    Vader was obviously cheating in a combination of being in essentially, a torture suit designed to let him flex the dark side into previously unheard of levels of Swole.

    arms range of motion locked by suit? choke
    handicapped by mental trauma? choke range unlimited
    sad he cant do spinning? no need when choke targets everyone and everything now
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    While an entertaining take, my understanding was that Vader is actually significantly weaker than he would have been if he'd never been crippled and forced into that suit?
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    While an entertaining take, my understanding was that Vader is actually significantly weaker than he would have been if he'd never been crippled and forced into that suit?
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    As far as I'm aware you are correct, the pain suit probably did help him with raw force power to some extent but I think if you asked the guy then he'd have preferred his old maneuverability and speed and lack of crippling weakness to electricity and ability to not be in pain all the time.
     
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    Gravitas Hunt said:
    Vader is stronger than Anakin, yes. I don't know if it's made clear that he's stronger than Anakin could have been.
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    This. Vader in the suit is leagues above ROTS Anakin by the time of ANH, both in Legends & Canon. If we're talking about a hypothetical unsuit Anakin, then yeah, he's getting curbstomped.

    But Darth Vader is a Jedi-killer, first and foremost. He's spent his entire career as a Sith Lord hunting down and eliminating all sorts of Jedi; from the lowest of Padawans to the deadliest of Masters. And each time, he's come out stronger and victorious from it. The only exception (in Legends) being Starkiller (which can be up to debate for TFUII), Old Ben Kenobi (though it's possibly that he could've won out if they dragged out the fight longer), and ultimately being bested by Luke in ROTJ. Aside from Sidious and Yoda, nobody could beat him in those twenty-three years prior to Endor.
     
    alexthealright said:
    Yeah, it's a tool of intimidation and mook crushing, not a weapon to be used against your peers.
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    i think its fine narratively if its mostly good for just mooks. there then comes the incentive to actually make friends to deal with larger threats/dragonslaying, fits in with the thematic concerns of combating sheevs attempts to cultivate tempers of isolation and paranoia. dont get cornered and only choke over zoom calls! its the diplomat's style!
     
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