The Mallus Compliance (Space Marines in Warhammer Fantasy - Chapter Master/Empire Building)

[16 characters]

So what I'm hearing is that brining Ulthuan to negotiating table might actually be easier than convincing Sido, Nassor Et Al. to be 10 percent less prejudiced?

 

[Exmorri]

I don't know. What I'm optimistically speculating about might look like this.

Ulthuan now, having little interaction but knowing about our conquests: "Oh, look, human geopolitics just got radically altered in less than a century. Again. And they introduced a new school of poorly-controlled magic, and had a devastating magical accident somewhere. Again. And this new state has a small number of very powerful gimmick ships that can fly, but seemingly no way of producing more. Again." (Condescending sigh at having seen all this before.)

Ulthuan if we start putting out ironclads or similar: "Well shit. Those are as fast as our ships, as tough as dwarf ships, carry dragon-caliber guns, and they're being rapidly produced at a shipyard without the need for High Magic or irreplaceable relics. The naval situation is significantly altered and we will have to do something about it, because this has potential to be a permanent change."

Elves being elves, there's a 50% chance that the "do something" will be a bad idea like attacking our shipyard, manipulating someone else to attack our shipyard, or trying to manipulate us to attack our own shipyard, though.

 

[FractiousDay]

I have mostly checked out of this thread for a while and have only a vague idea what's going on until I spend some time re-reading and seeing the next status update for our region of control.

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Mindful that some people have more time than others, what is the most useful things you want to know about to make decisions, and how might you want to know that?

I get for example that people might not want to read over loads of info, so for example I could say 'Infrastructure (++) your roads are good etc but other stuff isn't so good', so a value in +s or -s to show whats going on at a glance, and then a short statement perhaps.

 

[Exmorri]

Mindful that some people have more time than others, what is the most useful things you want to know about to make decisions, and how might you want to know that?

I get for example that people might not want to read over loads of info, so for example I could say 'Infrastructure (++) your roads are good etc but other stuff isn't so good', so a value in +s or -s to show whats going on at a glance, and then a short statement perhaps.

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I'm afraid I don't know how to answer that.

E.g. when I think more about my previous suggestion of naval supremacy, which may or may not turn out to be useful, some of the factors that might go into it include estimating
-The state of normal Mallus shipbuilding (wooden for most states, the Dwarfs have ironclads but those are very slow and costly prestige projects, so each king gets like 1 with his name on it, they're all "hero" ships)
-How much of an improvement motorized ironclads would be over those wooden sailing ships
-How simple ironclads are for us to produce from a "normal" shipyard with minimal Mechanicus oversight
-Potential effects such as cheaply connecting our holdings, improving world trade, suppressing piracy, and shrugging off sea monster attacks
-Ulthuan's fleet size and possible responses to us threatening their dominance
-Shipbuilding tradition or the lack thereof?

and it's unreasonable to expect you to give that much world context for judging many different projects that depend on different factors.

So I think you'll just have to make the call on where you want to land on the spectrum from planquest [3 Mechanicus dice, 4 Astartes dice] to narrative options, and describe as you see fit.

Some other things I'm considering, which you could use as inspiration if you want to write about the context they exist in:
-Refloat a spaceship like @16 characters said, we gotta get back to the Imperium eventually, this is a necessary step with cool side benefits.
-Mass produce cheap energy/fuel. Not just for the chapter, for all our subjects too, so they can get more done and we have more stuff from taxes to foundries to skilled recruits, boosting lots of other projects over time. Prometheum production is one way, fusion generator hooked up to electric grid is another.
-Drive infant mortality and stillbirths close to zero. Even with the "deathworld survivor" fetish Marines have, kids dying at age 2 is not a useful test of their skills, and more population is good for just about every other project too. It'll take a while to have effect, but we have time. Probably.
-Collect, compare, and cross-reference information on all the planet's magic and psyker nonsense to figure out what's going on and what potential threats exist. I think I raised this earlier and it got shot down because we had only Araby as a significant data source.
-Produce so many autoguns for our vassals and allies, Texas gets jealous. Let the guns be traded around, I figure guns are a significantly "human-boosting" technology worth spreading even when they're out of our hands, because for most nonhumans there's going to be some problem like 1) doesn't fit their limbs/claws, 2) doesn't fit their essence like with dryads, 3) monster was already so bullshit deadly a gun doesn't change much, 4) there's one monster per 1000 humans.
-Research into gene-slaves, Ghyran, and other Marine recruitment projects
-Expand the Celestial Collosseum games and recruitment pipeline, invite people from more nations, it strikes me as one of the most "diplomatic" things that Space Marines can legitimately do to assist with peace and interstate cooperation without breaking character
-Figure out if there's a peaceful way to get access to Ulthuan's "psychic" traditions. I realize this is a hard one, but it's very valuable.

 

[16 characters]

So is my counting off or have we reached a stablish looking number of Adeptus Astartes at about 330 ish space marines of dornian stock? Something close to levels right after the Battle For The Orbitals.
Also, I don't expect it this turn, but will we ever get another Events Of The Wide World, perhaps next turn from our growing intelligence network?

 

[FractiousDay]

and it's unreasonable to expect you to give that much world context for judging many different projects that depend on different factors.

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Tbh I'd much rather reply to things like this just in a post rather than develop a complex system to do everything. I will be writing a status update for various things and using the +++ vs —- system I mentioned, I think this should be sufficient generally, and I can just update the text at various points. However for now I'm find just talking about stuff so if you have questions feel free to note them

Refloat a spaceship like @16 characters said, we gotta get back to the Imperium eventually, this is a necessary step with cool side benefits

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there's utility in this, but depends what you want to do. A small vessel could for exmaple be able to deploy a force within 10 mins to a whole hemisphere by drop pods, compared with a force within an hour etc if they had to take a thunderhawk there. Similarly, you could use it for orbital strikes if you wanted, but they'd be pretty inaccurate. There's also the wider point that you have no defence from space attack currently so if someone turned up in a ship you couldn't do anything against them

Mass produce cheap energy/fuel. Not just for the chapter, for all our subjects too, so they can get more done and we have more stuff from taxes to foundries to skilled recruits, boosting lots of other projects over time. Prometheum production is one way, fusion generator hooked up to electric grid is another.

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sure, moving to more stable energy infrastructure would indeed be sensible, but that's a wider point in uplifting more generally, if you want to uplift faster or more intensively you can do that

nother.
-Drive infant mortality and stillbirths close to zero. Even with the "deathworld survivor" fetish Marines have, kids dying at age 2 is not a useful test of their skills, and more population is good for just about every other project too. It'll take a while to have effect, but we have time. Probably.

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same as above

Collect, compare, and cross-reference information on all the planet's magic and psyker nonsense to figure out what's going on and what potential threats exist. I think I raised this earlier and it got shot down because we had only Araby as a significant data source.

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not possible till you have much more info. You basically destroyed the Arabyan magical tradition, you seized hundreds of magic items and took over their main base. If you wanted to understand the dwarf stuff for example you'd have to have similar levels of access to them

Produce so many autoguns for our vassals and allies, Texas gets jealous. Let the guns be traded around, I figure guns are a significantly "human-boosting" technology worth spreading even when they're out of our hands

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I've mentioned this before yes it would work, until your enemies adapted anyway. There's a player choice question about whether to distribute them as widely though

Research into gene-slaves, Ghyran, and other Marine recruitment projects

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yep, part of the options certainly

Expand the Celestial Collosseum games and recruitment pipeline, invite people from more nations, it strikes me as one of the most "diplomatic" things that Space Marines can legitimately do to assist with peace and interstate cooperation without breaking character

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sure, good in character thing, would mostly be empire people though and maybe some southern realms

Figure out if there's a peaceful way to get access to Ulthuan's "psychic" traditions. I realize this is a hard one, but it's very valuable

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Very difficult so unlikely to happen soon

So is my counting off or have we reached a stablish looking number of Adeptus Astartes at about 330 ish space marines of dornian stock? Something close to levels right after the Battle For The Orbitals.

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Pretty much, you're quite strong, but you'll still need to be careful etc, you can still get blindsided

Also, I don't expect it this turn, but will we ever get another Events Of The Wide World, perhaps next turn from our growing intelligence network?

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not really much to report, elves are still busy with their Arnheim conflict, Cathay is doing a civil war, badlands are relatively quiet, brettobia is finishing up their stuff in estalia, the empire has won the vampire wars, norsca is recovering. Those are the main changes you'd know about

 

[rx915]

@FractiousDay let's say the Lion's successfully set up their forges at the ideal condition could they make up their own unit types?

I was playing battlesector and had a sample of the primaris units and they were sexy power armored brutes taking on tyranids in baal secundus with what they have.

 

[16 characters]

@rx915
Have we not already with our sternguard/ the hunters? Also the third company is pretty specialized? If the idea is more in the future, I do not see why that would be impossible.
Obviously even if our QM did not unfairly loathe primaris marines I don't we will get them especially since the narrative upgrading ourselves with well whatever we can get is more interesting. Be that runic armor Hysh and Or Ghyran type restoration of broken organs, the use of spawning pools which we can probably soon capture, or more there will be opportunities.

I don't any stuff from ''Brettobia'' though, all their blessing are through The Lady/ Lilieth/ whatever the entity really is, and the only plausible way I could see that force being on our side might be more extreme, nigh suicidal heresy involving a marrige between two gods when the imperium feels only one should exist.
If you are interested in doing something more radical with a higher chance of success you might want to look into, for example, idea I'd like to do more with: Emulating the chaplaincy-librarius of the Silver Skulls, at the least conflict should over greater time vastly lessen between marines who must know each other to function, I'd think.
(in only two weeks I will be free to return to my planned projects for this thread! My shorter responses are not at all from a lack of interest but merely a reduction in available time. I'm doing good though.)

 

[FractiousDay]

@FractiousDay let's say the Lion's successfully set up their forges at the ideal condition could they make up their own unit types?

I was playing battlesector and had a sample of the primaris units and they were sexy power armored brutes taking on tyranids in baal secundus with what they have.

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I'm not really sure what you're talking about here tbh. You can't just magically invest Gravis armour no, but, for example, you could certainly prototype new patterns of armour. I imagine there's a certain degree of improvation in some cases, but most patterns already solve those issues. Mk8 is the best, Iron Armour is the most durable, Beakie is best at sensing stuff, that sort of thing.

There's some degree of improvation within knowable areas. For example, the Red Scorpions stuck a Whirlwind launcher on top of a Land Raider, and other Chapters have done similar things. If you want to stick one thing to another that's not something new, so would generally be allowed.

You have indeed developed specific formations as 16 says, eg your Hunters, and you could do more. You could revive the Destroyers for example and equip a formation with such weapons. Alternatively, if you really wanted to you could make some sort of Tesla Marine with help from the Metallica admech because they really like electric stuff.

Emulating the chaplaincy-librarius of the Silver Skulls

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I seem to recall you asking about this before and I didn't get round to answering.

Fundamentally, this is really really dumb. The whole point of the Chaplains is to be internal investigators and interal security. You can't have them be the same as the Librarians. If the filthy mutants get corrupted by a magic sword or something, the Chaplains can put them down. If your hybrid formation gets corrupted the whole chapter falls. It's not such a problem with Iron Fathers or Rune Priests because they don't cause such issues.

 

[rx915]

Have we not already with our sternguard/ the hunters? Also the third company is pretty specialized? If the idea is more in the future, I do not see why that would be impossible.
Obviously even if our QM did not unfairly loathe primaris marines I don't we will get them especially since the narrative upgrading ourselves with well whatever we can get is more interesting. Be that runic armor Hysh and Or Ghyran type restoration of broken organs, the use of spawning pools which we can probably soon capture, or more there will be opportunities.

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Getting units that existed before makes sense. Getting actually new units that aren't canon? I will be intrigued.

I'm not expecting primaris marines when these stranded marines don't have access to Cawl or Rowboat but if the forges can be reached to it's high level and so will the librarius with the addition of runes, armor and weapon substitutes can be added in.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here tbh. You can't just magically invest Gravis armour no, but, for example, you could certainly prototype new patterns of armour. I imagine there's a certain degree of improvation in some cases, but most patterns already solve those issues. Mk8 is the best, Iron Armour is the most durable, Beakie is best at sensing stuff, that sort of thing.

There's some degree of improvation within knowable areas. For example, the Red Scorpions stuck a Whirlwind launcher on top of a Land Raider, and other Chapters have done similar things. If you want to stick one thing to another that's not something new, so would generally be allowed.

You have indeed developed specific formations as 16 says, eg your Hunters, and you could do more. You could revive the Destroyers for example and equip a formation with such weapons. Alternatively, if you really wanted to you could make some sort of Tesla Marine with help from the Metallica admech because they really like electric stuff.

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Huh. Making a new armor pattern. I haven't thought of it that way but there's options for specialisations thanks to runes.

The first tesla marines eh? Sweet. The challenges of being stranded calls for drastic measures. I got one where as powerfists are quite hard to make they use runes instead so it's powerfists imbued with runes for the punching.

Oh yeah. The librarius. Would they ever consider necromancy for calling back a dead brother for answers?

 

[16 characters]

Alright fair enough the Silver Skulls are a....strange bunch even outside of that, the name being very literal in some cases. Apologies if I offended I was not attempting to suggest something harmful.
If that is not possible though might something along the lines of having them coordinate tasks without conflating duties and perhaps living next to each other be possible?
It's obvious that not all marine chapters have the sheer amount of distrust internally we do, some have clearly managed far less and that strikes me as healthy. Yes some have managed more too I'm sure but voters should be trying to preserve the chapter methinks.
I admit a sad lack of familiarity with the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves, all I recall about them is that they really raised magnuses hackles for presenting as hypocrite.

My understanding of the Iron fathers is that they are indeed a bit more sensible* than the Prognosticators since they don't spend all their time among marines, or tech boys but travel back and forth and serve both, no?
Would something less drastic but still more cooperative of that sort pass muster?

*There was one time they aided in some weird mechanicus coup to fuse the Echlisarchy with the Priesthood of Mars or something like that though I think, so I'm comparing by degrees and by 40k standards.

 

[FractiousDay]

Getting units that existed before makes sense. Getting actually new units that aren't canon? I will be intrigued.

I'm not expecting primaris marines when these stranded marines don't have access to Cawl or Rowboat but if the forges can be reached to it's high level and so will the librarius with the addition of runes, armor and weapon substitutes can be added in.

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So in theory it's not 'inventing' anything. FOr example, supposedly there's going to be an all rocket launcher squad released soon (as in models). Therefore, at any point I as the GM can just say 'oh yea this sort of formation was popular in the Great Crusade but fell out of fashion but now you've started it again'.

So yea, if you want particular formations, you can have those, if you want some interesting narrative thing you can.

The poitns around inventing entirely new things are somewhat more complicated. You could 'revive' a formation with a single action, it's not a big deal. Comparably, to create something new would require extensive work by various parties, so would perhaps be 3 actions spread across learning, stewardship and martial.

For example, lets say you want 'magic marines' ones with extensive magical augmentation, with maybe some anti-magic dwarf runes, or other things. you'd need to research what enchantments, then build special suits of armour at great cost to actually be enchanted, and then deploy them as a formation. Keep in mind, you are fairly vulnerable to magic currently. Purple Sun of Xerus' effects are 'turn target to crystal' and an Astartes is just as vulnerable to that as other people. If you can the special anti-magic coating though then maybe they'd be more resistant.


Was looking at Space Wolf stuff, for example,
"The Hounds of Morkai are dedicated Space Wolves psyker-hunting packs based upon Reiver Squads.[2] Equipped with runic totems that protect pack from evil magicks, Once they've caught the scent of their quarry, the hapless witch is as good as dead.[1]"

So that for example is precedent, you could have something similar for the Lions. Anyway its just that you can have specialised formations.

Would they ever consider necromancy for calling back a dead brother for answers?

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This is super sketchty from the Imperial perspective. On one hand, they might be entirely fine with it and even approve, after all 'Even in death I still serve' and the dreadnoughts etc. Comparably though, it might instead be interpreted as super heretical soul based magic adn tehrefore absolutely forbidden.

Apologies if I offended I was not attempting to suggest something harmful.

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Nah its fine

I admit a sad lack of familiarity with the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves, all I recall about them is that they really raised magnuses hackles for presenting as hypocrite.

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My bad, Wolf Priests instead. Combines Apothecaries and Chaplains just like Iron Fathers combine techmarines and chaplains for the Iron Hands

It's obvious that not all marine chapters have the sheer amount of distrust internally we do, some have clearly managed far less and that strikes me as healthy. Yes some have managed more too I'm sure but voters should be trying to preserve the chapter methinks.
I admit a sad lack of familiarity with the Rune Priests of the Space Wolves, all I recall about them is that they really raised magnuses hackles for presenting as hypocrite.

My understanding of the Iron fathers is that they are indeed a bit more sensible* than the Prognosticators since they don't spend all their time among marines, or tech boys but travel back and forth and serve both, no?
Would something less drastic but still more cooperative of that sort pass muster?

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So fundamentalyl this depends a bit on interpretation. I would argue that you really have to keep the Chaplains separate from the psykers, because the later are the most vulnerable to corruption. Otherwise you get revolving doors and iron triangles. IRL those sorts of things happen with regulators where the governmental agency becomes too close to the group it's meant to police, leading to corruption of various sorts. I suppose its the same reason Commissars are outside the chain of command for the Guard.

 

[rx915]

This is super sketchty from the Imperial perspective. On one hand, they might be entirely fine with it and even approve, after all 'Even in death I still serve' and the dreadnoughts etc. Comparably though, it might instead be interpreted as super heretical soul based magic adn tehrefore absolutely forbidden.

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It is possible though if the brothers under former captain corax wishes to know what exactly happened they can finally ask their ex captain what's going on.

 

[16 characters]

Alright, I'm left scratching my head then on what else might be done to convince the chaplaincy not to start a civil war/killing many valued servants in the long term then? Again not looking for easy solutions.
If someone like Black Nassor would feel less insecure by having a chance to probe all imperials perhaps barring Amra himself, I'd be for it. Such wouldn't be great or easy but I think the ending I'd least like to get would be the ''Imperials destroyed themselves again becasue of their attitudes'' ending.

@rx915
I think the marines might approve of some Amythest magic spells to contact the souls of the dead, but those are fairly safe, ritualized, don't use dhar, and don't actually raise the dead so they wouldn't count as necromancy *shrug*.
The problem is that at this point in the timeine there is not a formal college so aythest users are I think mostly talented Morrite priests, which is to say, Heretics.
Heretics who would believe I'd think that they'd lose their magic if they lost their god.

It certainly would be exceptionally radically awesome if our Deathspeakers could actuallly be Speakers For The Dead in more than a metaphorical sense.

 

[rx915]

Have Amra do more noteworthy deeds?

 

[16 characters]

Have Amra do more noteworthy deeds?

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I mean he's already slain Settra The Imperishable, Lord Hypocrite of Nehekara, Wielder of a thousand follies, King of self puffery, and many more titles besides.

As well as Khaldia Neferher, the Voice of the Vengeful, the Lioness of the Hills, She Whose Legions Blot Out the Sun With Their Arrows, High Queen Khalida, Guardian of Damned Lahmia, the Watchful Soul and the Serpent Queen.

He also banished Ku'gath Plaguefather, the Foetid Brewmaster, the Plagueweave, the Rotting Poxmaker, Kisveraldo the Foul-Breathed!
And last but not quite least he cleansed the Jungle of Khongs Bood, which also gave us the Ashwalkers.

The dude rose from the dead!

What more in accolades could the fellow ever need to gain someones respect? If any of our staff have issue with Amra, unless they are insane, I am sure it is not because he is lacking noteworthiness.

EDIT: Wait am I being dumb? Ugh I think I am... ;(
Are you instead suggesting that Amra should be our conduit for contacting dead marines souls? The later would make more sense than thinking amra needs to unlock more achievements to earn the chaplaincies respect.

 

[rx915]

I mean he's already slain Settra The Imperishable, Lord Hypocrite of Nehekara, Wielder of a thousand follies, King of self puffery, and many more titles besides.

As well as Khaldia Neferher, the Voice of the Vengeful, the Lioness of the Hills, She Whose Legions Blot Out the Sun With Their Arrows, High Queen Khalida, Guardian of Damned Lahmia, the Watchful Soul and the Serpent Queen.

He also banished Ku'gath Plaguefather, the Foetid Brewmaster, the Plagueweave, the Rotting Poxmaker, Kisveraldo the Foul-Breathed!
And last but not quite least he cleansed the Jungle of Khongs Bood, which also gave us the Ashwalkers.

The dude rose from the dead!

What more in accolades could the fellow ever need to gain someones respect? If any of our staff have issue with Amra, unless they are insane, I am sure it is not because he is lacking noteworthiness.

EDIT: Wait am I being dumb? Ugh I think I am... ;(
Are you instead suggesting that Amra should be our conduit for contacting dead marines souls? The later would make more sense than thinking amra needs to unlock more achievements to earn the chaplaincies respect.

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Can be that and more. Do more miracles so that the chaplain is more assured.

It worked on that tzeentchian plot to have a blood angel be a fake sanguinus. Only the veterans and his blood brother was not fooled.

 

[16 characters]

Are there any marines in the chapter not from the latest tihes that wouldn't be considered veterans in nigh any other circumstance? Isn't the label more of a political thing than an age thing though?
Also how old are our dudes?
I think Amra might be a very respectable 95 at the youngest if my mental math isn't failing me* but with intense cybernetics and rejuvination treatments being imperial thingss he may not be the oldest dude within our polity? Maybe the Fabricator general might be older than him...

*Even with the lions I can't imagine someone making chapter master in less than 20 yers plus the years needed to grow as marine gives me 35 years minimum age, + 40 years of warp travel + 20 years or so of ''living'' on Mallus.

On the idea of him achieving greater yet feats, I think it's probably a good sign for inter chapter relations that Natohk is approving of him using himself as a conduit for binding psychers, something feat worthy but more importantly something that controls psychers which ...ought to be things the chaplains in general should like?


EDIT: We probably shouldn't be trying to take advice from Tzeench or trying to have our men fool each other?

 

[rx915]

EDIT: We probably shouldn't be trying to take advice from Tzeench or trying to have our men fool each other?

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There's a difference unless Amra's ascension was a tzeentchian plot.

 

[rx915]

Hmmmm..... maybe there's a possible clause to imperium sanctioned necromancy.

Use it on enemies no one cares about as much like the local orcs.

The other sort of necromancy is much more creative assuming Amra is the beginning of something far more warpy.

If he can one day do it he can take the souls of the worthy to make pseudo sigmarines with golems.

 

[FractiousDay]

Are there any marines in the chapter not from the latest tihes that wouldn't be considered veterans in nigh any other circumstance? Isn't the label more of a political thing than an age thing though?
Also how old are our dudes?
I think Amra might be a very respectable 95 at the youngest if my mental math isn't failing me* but with intense cybernetics and rejuvination treatments being imperial thingss he may not be the oldest dude within our polity? Maybe the Fabricator general might be older than him...

*Even with the lions I can't imagine someone making chapter master in less than 20 yers plus the years needed to grow as marine gives me 35 years minimum age, + 40 years of warp travel + 20 years or so of ''living'' on Mallus.

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So as far as I'm aware, with a few variations, the progression is basically:

Aspirant>Scout>Assault>Devastator>Tactical>Sergeant>Vanguard>Sternguard>Terminator>Captain>Chapter Master

Some chapters move stuff about, others might have variations like putting people in the honourguard or champion roles, that sort of thing. Anways, we know there are a few specific timescales for these. You have to be at least 100 to be a veteran. You spend about 10 years as a Scout, that sort of thing. I would interpret each of those steps to take perhaps 10 years. You need to master every weapon as a Devastator. You need to fight in numerous enviroments as a Tactical Marine perhaps, that sort of thing. By the time you're getting to Veteran status, you're starting to be pushed for leadership perhaps, for example you're really good at tactical leadership or small unit tactics, but to be a Veteran Sergeant, to begin to train Scouts for example, you need more experience in other issues than just tactics.

In terms of the ages of your marines, Khotan is the oldest, I've always mentioned him as being aged etc. He's the Chapter's Ancient, the oldest marine etc, he'll be 700+. Amra is younger, but still very experienced, older than the Chapter's settlement on Elysium as he wasn't born there himself. He's probably 500+, a very experienced and capable Chapter Master. The other Captains are of similar ages, Tuthmes is the most senior and along with Vularakh has the most experience, so probably 300+. The younger Captains include Vakembi, Nassor, Kaaram, Selous and Kabor, who are all 200ish. The other specialists like Hath-Horeb and Thalis will be about 400+, with Natohk being relatively new so slightly younger. Natohk used to be a Captain-Deathspeaker hybrid sort of, so a little unusual.

There's a fairly small number of very senior veterans, many of the veteran sergeants, who originate prior to teh Lions settlemetn on Elysium, but the rest of the Chapter are from there apart from those who've been recruited recently.

Oh and apart from that there's also the Dreadnoughts, who aren't really 'alive' in the same way, some of those will be at least a thousand years old.

It should be noted that Space Marines are functionally immortal, or rather, since their creation none have died of old age. There are Marines who've been active for long periods who seem to think they're aging. Dante is 1500 and is sad and depressed because all his friends are dead, Sigismund thought he was aging when he died to Abbadon, and the Custodes (not Marines but similar) 'retire' into the Eyes of the Emperor when they feel they can't match the required standards for Custodes.

On the idea of him achieving greater yet feats, I think it's probably a good sign for inter chapter relations that Natohk is approving of him using himself as a conduit for binding psychers, something feat worthy but more importantly something that controls psychers which ...ought to be things the chaplains in general should like?

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If the desire is to just reduce the chance of civil war, the Chaplaincy are fairly happy now. They're being pretty flexible, they're allowing experimentation within certain norms etc. However:

Use it on enemies no one cares about as much like the local orcs.

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Something like this wouold be more problematic. Daemonology or similar acts are inherently bad ones, its not just that you'd be only using them on enemies etc.

Some of this will also extend to rolls too. The Chaplains would probably be fine with you distributing some magic items because they're stable psycraft and hav ebeen tested etc, however rolls would determine whether they start manifesting psykic elements themselves. Say Natohk is praying in battle and suddenly he notices that the undead they're fighting are beign driven back easier because of som emagic on their guns. That's something like a Morrite spell, but how would Natohk interpret it?

There's a difference unless Amra's ascension was a tzeentchian plot.

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This is indeed a massive reason why someone turning up and claiming divine providence is highly suspect.

 

[FractiousDay]

This one is largely flavour and background, based on what the Inquisition know about you.

Index Astartes - Celestial Lions ​

Founding Chapter	VII Imperial Fists
Founding	23rd Founding (Suspected)
Status	Unknown (Suspected Traitoris)
Chapter Master	Amra
Fortress-Monastery	Unknown
Homeworld	Unknown (Formerly Elysium IX)
Heraldry	Gold armour with blue pauldrons and helmet, astrological and leonine sigils
Speciality	Armoured Assault
Strength	Unknown (formerly 8 Companies)
Battle Cry	"Finis noctis!"/"We are the Emperor's Lions!"

The Celestial Lions are a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes, formerly based in the Elara's Veil sub-sector of the Ultima Segmentum. The Lions stem from an unknown founding, sometime after M38, and draw from Imperial Fists gene-seed. The current status of the Chapter is unknown.

Origins
The Celestial Lions first appear in records in M38 during the Grim Harvest of 666.M38, and subsequently in various actions of the Redemption Crusades of M39. It is speculated that the Lions stem from the 23rd 'Sentinel Founding', with the Lions one of the Chapters raised to pursue perpetual crusades and rebuild the Adeptus Astartes strength in general after the 21st 'Cursed Founding' as well as various conflicts of the time.

However, it is also possible that the Lions were raised during the 25th 'Bastion Founding' due to the Lions' similarities to the Emperor's Spears and Star Scorpions chapters, and their later association.

While the specific details of the founding are unknown, the traditions of the Chapter are additionally hidden. Due to similarities in doctrine and organistion, the Lions are suspected to directly stem from a Successor Founding of the Imperial Fists, or subordinate Successor chapter. The Lions demonstrate similar assault doctrine to the Iron Champions, Executioners, Soul Drinkers and Black Templars, all of whom succeeded from assault or armoured formations of the Imperial Fists during the Second Founding. Certainly the Lions preferred deployment includes significant assault elements, led by armoured spearheads and fast attack elements. Secondly, the Lions maintain non-standard terminology for Astartes officers, including the 'Deathspeakers', a term identical in form and function to that of the Executioners Chapter. Lastly, the Lions maintain several items of wargear supposedly originating in the Black Templars Chapter, and has previously fought alongside that Chapter in numerous actions.

Assets
Prior to their disappearance, the Lions maintained significant fleet assets including their Battle Barge 'Serenkai', as well as several cruiser-class vessels. The Lions also maintained a significant ground force, including numerous Thunderhawks and at least 3 Land Raiders.

While certain specific wargear has been recorded in use by Celestial Lions officers including the Relic Blade 'Je'hara', the only other unique item is the 'Jagged Claw', and adapted Pain Glove in the style of the Imperial Fists mortification tradition. The Jagged Claw leaves notable scarification on internees, and this scarification should be used to identify Lions if suspected.

Organisation and Doctrine
The Celestial Lions largely conform to the Codex Astartes-standard of organisation, with minor exceptions. Firstly, instead of Scouts being placed into Devastator Companies first, the Lions follow the example of the Space Wolves and instead place Scouts into Assault Squads, emphasising aggression over firepower.

In general, the Chapter is offensively focused, relying on fast, hard strikes using armoured forces against weak points, with limited reconnaissance by faster elements such as Attack Bikes and Land Speeders. The Lions retain high mobility, firepower, and close assault elements, but lack significant stealth capabilities, as well as artillery for longer engagements or sieges.

The Lions term their Captains as 'Warleaders', their Librarians as 'Spiritwalkers', the Apothecaries as 'Lifebinders', their Chaplains as 'Deathspeakers', their Techmarines as 'Ironmanes' and their Sergeants as 'Pride Leaders'. Despite these naming conventions, each function largely conforms to Codex standards.

Some organisational differences have been observed between Marines from Elysium IX, and those from other bloodtithes. This differences are notable, but lack consistency. Marines from Elysium IX are identifiable by their phenotype due to the Elysium's settlement by Afrik colonists during the Golden Age of Technology, with most such marines having darker skin and hair.

Homeworld
Given the Celestial Lions' unknown Founding and circumstances, it is difficult to determine when and how the Lions settled Elysium IX, however, following the 25th Founding the Celestial Lions joined the Star Scorpions and Emperor's Spears Chapters in the Adeptus Vaelarii, an alliance between the Chapters to defend the Elara's Veil region of space. The Lions were successful their part, diminishing piratical Ork and Eldar activity, as well as combating several emergent cults in the region.

Elysium IX itself is a Feral World conforming to the broad category, but notable for the presence of psychic xenoforms endemic to the world's savannah and jungle biomes. The inhabitants of Elysium IX hunt these beasts and occupy numerous small bastion-settlements across the world from which the Lions recruit.

Elysium IX possesses a native religious tradition, suspected to stem from societal collapse during the Age of Strife, featuring emphasis on individual action, and 'pushing back the night', rewarding heroism and civilisational efforts and celebrating these through song. The 'Pyro-cult' identifies the Emperor of Mankind as the first 'Torchbearer' of humanity, and has been evaluated by the Ministorum as a permissible variation on the Imperial Truth.

It is unknown to what extent the Pyrocult has infiltrated in the Celestial Lions themselves, when compared to standard Astartes practices.

Fall
During the Khattarn Insurrection of 329.M40 the Celestial Lions successfully crushed the revolt of the Shrine World Khattarn. While some records indicate the priesthood of Khattarn had fallen to Chaos, a reassessment demonstrates that this revolt was merely a Categoria Nullis event. The Lions destroyed the local opposition, and subsequently were ordered to enact Exterminatus by Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor Apollyon. The Lions disobeyed, refusing to bombard the supposedly compliant planet, and even attempted to interpose their voidcraft between the local Navy forces and the planet itself, though unsuccessfully. The Lions, including their Chapter Master, Saul, subsequently petitioned various parties including Militarum, Administratum, and other Inquisition forces to censure Inquisitor Apollyon for his actions. Apollyon in turn ordered Inquisition assets into place to reduce the Chapter, attempting to set an example and prevent further strife between the Astartes and Inquisition, and especially to ensure absolute obedience to Exterminatus orders in future. Though unsuccessful, Inquisitor Apollyon's actions have been subsequently approved by the Kytain Conclave, and Apollyon has been proved correct with the recent regrettable 'Months of Shame'.

Notable Figures
Of the current Chapter, only two figures are notable in these records. Firstly, Amra, the Chapter Master of the Celestial Lions himself. Amra is at least six centuries old, having been a Captain or 'Warleader' in the Macharian Crusade, and subsequent Macharian Heresy 392-470.M41. Like most Astartes commanders, Amra is a skilled individual combatant, possessing artificer wargear speculated to draw from older Black Templar stocks following the Second Founding. While Amra has been observed to be of a pious, forceful and cautious personality, lacking in indirect inclinations, the Chapter Master is capable of wider strategic thought, diplomacy and guile.

Secondly, the Chief Librarian or 'Spiritwalker' Hath-Horeb is known to be a psyker of significant ability and experience, present in records of the Gothic War between 139-160.M41. No clear intelligence is available regarding Hath-Horeb, save for observations regarding his unusual competence in the psychic disciplines.

Attempts to assassinate both individuals have been unsuccessful, especially following Amra's retreat and garrison of the Celestial Lions homeworld. While the Chapter possesses reasonable levels of experience among Marines and leadership, previous Inquisition action has successfully reduced this experience. Notably, in the Caladian Gulf Incident, elements of the Ordo Hereticus, Minotaurs Chapter and Officio Assassinorum were able to eliminate the previous Chapter Master, Saul, as well as the Chapter's Reclusiarch and several Captains.

Current Status
The current status of the Celestial Lions is unknown. It is assumed that Chapter Master Amra, seeking to protect his Chapter, husbanded his strength on Elysium IX, and intelligence suggests that Amra called in various favours from the Mechanicus, Ministorum and Militarum.

Amra additionally petitioned the Deathwatch for the return of Celestial Lions deployed there, citing the immediate need of veterans, as well as withholding the Chapter's gene-tithe for fifty years. In both cases, Ordo Hereticus estimates indicate that the Chapter was well-resourced, with at least 6 companies active, indicating deception on Amra's part.

Subsequently, in 456.M40, the Celestial Lions abruptly abandoned their homeworld, rendezvousing with an Explorator Fleet of Forge World Metallica and minor elements of other organisations, then disappearing toward an unknown destination. It is speculated that the Lions used previously unknown routes through the Warp in an attempt to evade the Inquisition.

Due to concerns regarding broader relations between the Inquisition and Adeptus Astartes, Inquisitor Apollyon has ordered the Lions to be declared as 'Lost' rather than Excommunicate Traitoris. Despite this, Inquisitors should keep the Lions in mind when investigating reports of unknown Astartes activity, and make all attempts to diminish the Chapter, should they be found. If possible, the Emperor's Spears Chapter should be alerted and utilised, the Spears having sworn a blood-oath of vengeance against the Celestial Lions for abandoning their duties in Elara's Veil. Additionally any and all efforts should be made to diminsh the connections the Lions previously possessed between the Mecanicus worlds of Bellona and Metallica, as well as the Militarum regiments of Macharia (a positive relationship going back to Amra's participation in the Macharian Crusade), as well as the Lions' connections with other Imperial Fist-lineage chapters.

It is assumed the Chapter has established another Homeworld either outside the Imperium's borders, or in Wilderness Space. No further reports have been received after the Lions' departure from Inquisition agents embedded in the Astartes fleet, in particular agent [REDACTED].

 

[Nevill]

Additionally, Amra .

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This part must be so secret, they have [REDACTED] out the [REDACTED] note.

 

[FractiousDay]

This part must be so secret, they have [REDACTED] out the [REDACTED] note.

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Good catch, leftover from the drafting process I'm afraid, corrected now.

Oh and I've got 'Start' Scorpions there too.

 

[thefoolswriter]

well the inqustion are still being assholes they really want the lions dead