If they're dissidents within our own group they won't be able to easily tackle the world's existing threats.
They could just as easily be Skaven or Vampires for all we know right now though? Though I suppose those working with dissidents too isn't completely impossible.
 
So just how well or how poorly do Wild Riders compare to our units stats wise? Does it even matter in this instance all that much? I know you don't like to do direct comparisons but I am curious.

Elves are generally less resilient than humans but for demigods of Kurnos I suspect they might at worst be equal to average here?
Obviously they have they element of having planned this assault for years, I'm not sure what other factors I should be considering here though. Maybe an ability to bring with them an Elemental Incarnate Of Beasts or something more southlandsy like Razodons?
 
Saint Interlude
Saint Interlude

The Abhuman 'Karak' was well appointed, Hermina had to say that at least as she walked slowly through the halls, leaning heavily on her staff and her attendants.

Her joints ached, they always did now, and especially so in the dank halls of the Dwarven city.

The place stunk, not of corpses anymore or goblin muck, that had been cleared by the Noviates. No, it stank of old death, this great palace in the mountain was a tomb, and even now Sisters were seeking the depths to erect defenses against further Greenskins.

It was amusing, even after all these years, Hermina thought, that the Astartes still refused to investigate the natives of Mallus. They'd continued to lump Goblins in with the Orks. It was foolish, for the in the years on the planet the Missonia had learned that Goblins had a certain cruelty absent from their cousins. Some aspect of fearsome intelligence and low cunning.

But then again, the Celestial Lions couldn't be everywhere…

"This will do." Hermina said, looking about. They stood in the largest hall, the ceiling vaulted, though many of the arches were cracked and here and there she saw piles of stone which had fallen.

At one end of the great chamber the Sisters were tearing down monuments to the Bad Moon, the local goblin deity. At the other end construction servitors were already bearing away chunks of rock along with work gangs and other Sisters assigned to menial duties due to some infraction.

"It is late." Olga said, the Cannoness of the new Order was stark beside Hermina. Her rune axe glowed in the dark, her plate glinted, for she rarely went without it in these days, even when in the fortress itself. "I'll find you a chamber."

Hermina nodded, "No food. Water only."

"My lady…"

"No." Hermina repeated. They were always trying to get her to eat.

She walked slowly after the others. Olga could see to the fortress after all. Hermina had studied warfare during her training but she had no great skill for it.

The visions gnawed at her.

The champion, the lawkeeper, the healer…

Olga's guards led her to a small chamber a level down. The stairs were difficult on her knees and she groaned as they reached the bottom. The Celestians Olga had assigned to her looked between them, but they knew better than to offer help.

Tomorrow, Hermina would inspect the first shipments of munitions from the Metallican Procurators. They'd been assured of power armour, the first new supply in years, and finally they'd be able to put away the mix of runic equipment, locally produced steel armour and Munitorum-grade flak plate that they'd been forced to adopt previously.

There'd been a desire to be better than the Astartes. The Space Marines had to downgrade their armour as well, but at least theirs were still power armour, rather than the ridiculous array of equipment the Sisters had over the last twenty years of so. Hermina suspected they'd be receiving old Astartes equipment, or parts of it at least. After all, a servo or a muscle fibre would work for a Sister's armour just as it did for an Astartes.

In truth, the whole affair was rather strange, and to an extent verged on heresy. Yet, The Missonia Galaxia had to deal with such problems regularly, and Hermina and Olga had become comfortable enough with it. In the early years it had been difficult, there had been a year cut off, aboard the missionary vessel stuck in orbit. Two of her bodyguards had died against the mutant crew, and even after they were saved and brought down, the mission had become complicated. First Medes, where Hermina's faith had banished a daemon, then the rule of that kingdom for many years afterward, travelling as emissary and state-maker about the Old World, but also seeing the Mission wither.

Olga's charge had been worse. At first the Astartes had dumped a seemingly random array of young women and children on the Sisters, apparently not knowing what to do with them. The women themselves had been confused, disappointed that their ritual purpose as sacrifices or brides had been so callously discarded, but they had become Brides of the Emperor. Olga took them, trained them, established the first convent of the Soroitas in the mountains at the World's Edge. The Order had grown, first dozens, then hundreds, and deep in the mountains they'd turned to planning.

It was not enough to leave the Astartes to rule Mallus. The world was too important for that. Hermina had known that early on, after all, a world that could resist the summoning of Greater Daemons? A world with at least two active Warp Gates? A world with clear signs of tampering by elder races and more recently by others like the Eldar? No, the Lions could bumble about with their bolters, it was up to the Mission and the Order to see the Compliance through.

But beginnings were a fragile time, oh so fragile… The Astartes were trying to smother the Mission. Slowly, quietly, indeed it was unlikely them, impressively so. Through their Shadow-Administratum, through their assumption of diplomatic duties they were completely unsuited for, through wilful ignorance, the Lions had slowly broken down the Mission, kept Hermina in Medes so she couldn't easily travel about on her duties, and presumably hoped that Olga and the others would just die off on their own.

But it hadn't worked. The Mission had spread across Mallus now, made connections with the native cults, began to influence them, and now they had a military force. Three thousands now, and thousands more would follow, Brides of the Emperor, hidden in a new Order, their loyalties to the Mission, not the heretics who called themselves the 'Masters of Mallus', who called a daemon their own Chapter Master.

Many a time the steps toward her own heresies had caused Hermia to doubt, and many times she'd felt herself nearing a precipice. With Olga's help they'd assembled quantities of 'enchanted' items, of rune weapons and armour, they'd made secret embassies to the Abhumans and humans of Mallus both. Those were heresies, necessary ones, but they laid heavy on her heart.

But then, in that time of trouble and uncertainty, the Saints had come.

Hermina didn't truly recognise them at first. She'd gone so long without the comfort and stillness of the convent, but she'd felt it in her heart, she'd felt the purity of faith.

The first was the warrior. Garbed in gold, a beautiful woman with a spear and shield. She stood before the foe, her weapon bright.

The second was the lawkeeper, blind and stark, she bore a sword and brought order where the first destroyed.

The third was the healer, who bore salves and bound wounds, she made the world right.

Their whispers and kindness brought Hermina back to faith. The spear, the sword, the salve, these truly were the tools of the Soroitas, whether the Ordos Militant, or the other duties of the wider Ministorum such as Hermina's own Missonia Galaxia. By the intercession of the saints Hermina's faith was renewed, and her purpose clear. Through their instruction, the Confessor had put plans in motion, and through their guidance her aged body was made strong once again.

"My lady, I'll fetch a heat unit-"

"No." Hermina replied. The cold was good for the soul, and Hermina didn't intend to stop her fast for anyone. Cold and hunger, it reminded her of her childhood and it was good.

Tomorrow she would review the Sisters in array, tour the fortress. But tonight she had work to do.

The Celestians found a table and stood quickly and Hermina brought out her quill and began to write. She'd been working on the text for years, and the cover would be beautiful indeed.

While Olga and her squad had been members of the Order of the Bloody Rose, Mallus needed an Order of it's own, and the Saints had shown Hermina the way. The Mallusian Sisters would be the Daughters of Elyra, the Order of the Bloody Veil. Elyra had supposedly been a saint during the Horus Heresy who's faith in the early cult of the Emperor had shielded her sector from the Ruinstorm summoned by the traitors in their war.

In the new Order, Elyra had been reimagined as a martial warrior. A Lady of Swords, and the cover of the book depicted her as one of the Adeptus Soroitas, garbed in rich red plate and bearing a golden sword. She wept, tears of blood running down perfect cheeks, and the influence of the Order of the Bloody Rose was plain.

This book would be Hermina's legacy. First to teach the Order their duties in the centuries to follow, to educate them on the structure of the Ministorum and wider Imperium, to make them sure in their purpose and confident in their inevitable victory.

Second it would show the revelations Hermina had received, the pure words and rituals the Saints had taught her in their visitations. They would be a powerful talisman for the Order in future years.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, the treatise would serve as a warning and secret directive, known only to the most senior of the Order, hidden in coded prayers and cyphers. The Celestial Lions and their daemon master must fall. Whether in one year or a thousands, Mallus must be pure and the entire Chapter had to be destroyed. Even if the daemon Amra himself were banished, the Chapter was impure, the psychic mutation running rampant through them. The Order and the Ministorum would grow within the Mallusian bureacracy, evading the works of the Arch-Factor and his Claws. That their loyalty was absolute was necessary, or at least that it was perceived so, and Hermia had laid plans to ensure the true alleigance of the Sororitas wouldn't be discovered.

Hermina wrote long into the night. Her pen scrawled across the pages and the little shaker of salts and sacred herbs had to be refilled twice to keep the pages dry. In the end though, it was done, and Hermina sat back on her knees, taking up her rosary. She lit a single candle and knelt in prayer, a smile on her face. She was content, for the first time in many years.

The Celestant bodyguards didn't disturb her, they never did when she prayed. But when she stopped moving they thought she slept, as she sometimes did, even as she knelt in prayer. Olga came the next day, the Cannoness herself bearing a tray of food to try and tempt the Lady into eating. The tray clattered to the floor when Hermina didn't respond, and not even the beatific expression on her face was enough to stop the sorrow of the Sisters.

With all honour they bore the Lady to a burial chamber, her hair shift, her rosary and her pen would become relics of the Order, while her shawl would be bound to the battle-standard of the Sisters and borne into the fray in later years. Most important though was the book itself. Olga read it first, she had worked long with Lady Hermina and she knew much of the contents already, but as soon as she finished Olga dreamed of the Saints too, except this time they were four.

The Warrior, the Lawkeeper, the Healer yes. But another figure joined them, a smiling old woman, her back bent by long labour, her form withered by fasting and struggle. She would be Saint Hermina, her attribute the book she carried and the Word she bore, and her Mission would guide the Order for many years.




Lady Hermina, ruler of Medes and head of the Missionia Galaxia, dies!

Relic gained: The Revelations of Saint Hermina - A treatise penned by Lady Hermina in the twilight years of her life, to inspire the Soroitas to greater feats of heroism. The text speaks of the virtues of the Ministorum, and the revelations Hermina received from the three saints who visited her. Through this text and the subsequent testimony of certain Sisters, Hermina is now acclaimed as a Saint of the Imperium, and the patron of Mallus and the Order of the Bloody Veil in particular.

Gained the Order of the Bloody Veil, the Mallusian force of Adeptus Soroitas, headquatered in the mountains of the Vaults, and self-sufficient in equipment and munitions, the sponsors of the newly reorganised orders of the Ministorum beneath the aegis of the Chapter.

Gained 2000 Sisters of Battle, armed with power armour and bolters. The Soroitas are less capable in battle than the Space Marines, and lack many specialists capacities, but they still easily surpass even the best of the Chapter's other mortal servants in valour and faith.
Ministorum assets are reorganised into:

  • The Order of the Bloody Veil, also known as the Daughters of Elyra, are a Mallusian Ordo Militant Convent of Adeptus Soroitas based in the mountains of the Vaults. The Order sponsor and direct all other Ministorum groups and assets on Mallus.
    • The Keepers of the Book, the Order's elite Celestants charged to protect the Order's relics and senior officers. The Keepers also bear a number of Mallusian magical items with various protective effects, including ruinc equipment.
    • 400 Sisters armed with traditional Soroitas equipment including power armour and bolters.
    • 1500 Noviates, armed with poorer quality equipment, but rapidly being reformed as munition stores increase.
    • Limited vehicles and support units.
  • The Missionia Galaxia, a force of translators, missionaries, medicae and other staff to study, engage with, and convert the population of Mallus.
  • The Frateris Militia, irregular formations of male warriors and pilgrims, the Frateris skirt the Decree Passive that the Ministorum will maintain no 'men under arms', but due to their irregular nature are tolerated. The Frateris tend to congregate around major Ministorum temples, and are particularly prevelant in Medes. The Militia possess relatively poor quality equipment, due to their status as an irregular force.
 
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:facepalm::jackiechan:
That's rich. Calling Amra a Daemon and then mistaking Warp Entities worshipped by local religions for saints.
Surely Missionaria has experience with chaos cults looking relatively innocent on surface, without eyes in the mouths and piles of screaming corpses and whatever. They must have protocols for situations where local deities are real. She should have had enough knowledge of local religions to recognize Myrmidia, Verena and Shalliya. Even if she didn't, there definitely were situations when Daemons pretended to be Saints and whatnot. She should have been more suspicious of the "Saints". But maybe they mind whammied her with divine powers or something.
 
We probably should've gave them what they wanted rather than subverted them but such is the dice.
 
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:facepalm::jackiechan:
That's rich. Calling Amra a Daemon and then mistaking Warp Entities worshipped by local religions for saints.
Surely Missionaria has experience with chaos cults looking relatively innocent on surface, without eyes in the mouths and piles of screaming corpses and whatever. They must have protocols for situations where local deities are real. She should have had enough knowledge of local religions to recognize Myrmidia, Verena and Shalliya. Even if she didn't, there definitely were situations when Daemons pretended to be Saints and whatnot. She should have been more suspicious of the "Saints". But maybe they mind whammied her with divine powers or something.

This goes to somewhat of a complicated question about how the Imperium actually functions. Naturally GW have little interest in ever actually establishing such a thing, but for our purposes we might say that it's a complicated issue which has a lot of issues. For example partly this will be the inherant vulnerability of the Ministorum's doctrine to such infiltration, partly the gods taking advantage of an old woman's vulnerbility, partly the Imperials' ignorance.

On the specific questions you had though, this also depends on the levels of knowledge. Within the setting, only people like Malleus Inquisitor Lords actually know the stuff we know. I've been generous here and let Hermina know about the Horus Heresy, but I think there's loads of stuff in the books etc about how people don't even know that was a thing. While yes the Missonia has protocals for how to deal with native religions, there's no such thing as 'real gods', if there's a warp entity then that's a daemon (the malleus would of course have a more nuanced view). As such, on Mallus where there are indeed non-chaos warp entities, and powerful ones at that, it doesn't really fit into the Missonia playbook, and they're lacking a lot of what Hath-Horeb has been investigating for example.

There will indeed have been cases where daemons pretend to be saints, sure, and there's times when some Cardinal goes off on his own with special visions (eg Vraks), but we also know that the Ministorum is really vulnerable to that. The Soroitas got started in the first place after all because apparently no one told Alicia Dominica that actually Vandire was just wearing a force field and wasn't blessed etc.

As for being able to recognise the gods, yes sure she can, but she doesn't necessarily associate the 'Saints' shes seeing with the heretic mistakes of faith that surely don't exist etc and are worshipped by locals. I would probably say that due to teh previously established Mallus weirdness, the Imperials in general probably don't even accept that Sigmar et al even exist. They may just believe that all the local priests are actually just rogue psykers. That's certainly how I wrote it a while ago when you were first starting to get out into Medes etc.
 
Am I somehow automatically in the wrong for now wanting the sisters to win out? I'll keep voting for the chapter since I feel little other choice while continuing to participate but my whole relation with all this is as always one of mixed feelings.
I recall I was told I was somehow wrong for wanting to see the chapter die off before. As if I had come in automatically having signed some contract requiring love adoration approval and aide to every action the lions were to have ever taken. Still even using their survival as a guiding principle, they are still remarkably talented at dying off, losing geneseed and now losing assets to their enemies.

At least the sisters seem to *care* that the planet is unique. I mean I know Hath Horeb does too, but we have figures like Nassor working himself into frothing knotts of rage at having to work with ''heretics'' and serfs doing write ups essentially classifying the Under-Empire as non existent and a non threat...
Honestly outside of combat, when it comes to diplomacy or rulership, the astartes are indeed vastly more inept than other imperials, or at least these are, sadly Ultramar this surely is not.
It's nice to see that the whole ''administer to the abhumans'' thing ended up having more too it than the chapter thought, just like with those scouts in the desert, not following up on people dissapearing seems like it is a bane we should try to overcome.

More amusingly I do wonder just what the inquisitorial reaction will be when they finally learn just how wrong they were here: ''While certain specific wargear has been recorded in use by Celestial Lions officers including the Relic Blade 'Je'hara', the only other unique item is the 'Jagged Claw', and adapted Pain Glove in the style of the Imperial Fists mortification tradition.''

At this point we have 9 relics stored up and I'd be shocked if we ended the compliance with less than fifteen at the rate we have been gathering and creating them.
 
Are you enjoying thing? (Yes this means you, come tell me)
Am I somehow automatically in the wrong for now wanting the sisters to win out? I'll keep voting for the chapter since I feel little other choice while continuing to participate but my whole relation with all this is as always one of mixed feelings.
I recall I was told I was somehow wrong for wanting to see the chapter die off before. As if I had come in automatically having signed some contract requiring love adoration approval and aide to every action the lions were to have ever taken. Still even using their survival as a guiding principle, they are still remarkably talented at dying off, losing geneseed and now losing assets to their enemies.
On losses, if you continue to facetank threats then yea that sort of thing happens. It's been 20 years since the Flesh-that-Hates, and in that time you've not decided to go investigate the chaos wastes yet. At least 20 years of that chaos sorcerer wandering about etc. It's been almost 35 years since Planetfall, and previously I'd rolled for the Skaven stealing stuff out of the ships before you properly excavated them. I'm not sure necessarily how fast the Skaven would be with teching up or other such things, but certainly it's been a while since you knew they were definitely workijng with Aghilies etc, and tehrefore aware of you.

As for voting generally, this is rather complicated and goes to a general question of whether people are actually enjoying the quest.

When I started this (and Orc quest) I was doing a lot of research into how one should actually do GMing. Some of that was how to create a living world, how to run encounters, that sort of thing. That's the reason, for example, why I have a rule about if players forget that have something then they dont have it anymore, because that's GMing advice I read which seemed useful.

Subsequently I've read about 'problem players'. Note, not calling you a problem player 16, you do I think the most engagement generally, but am just using it to illurstrate a point. So, I can get the desire to not necessarily support the Lions. However, I've spent 140k writing about them, and almost none of that writing about anyone else. We've never had a perspective from the admech for example. Imagine a DnD player who wanted to play a death knight or something nad therefore at every opportunity tried to get themselves killed. They went into spooky caves alone or made impetuous decisions knowing problems might happen. The GM would have to deal with that in some way. In theory, they could just let the player roll a new character and continue as them, that's fine I suppose, but in this I write most of the stuff, it's not the same as a GM doing DnD, so it doesn't really work like that.

I do get that people might not like the Lions, might like others better for example. That's fair I suppose. I definitely wouldn't allow someone to vote or plan to get the Lions killed. I think a suicidal player would indeed be a problem player, and I think it's unfair on everyone else. If for example it turned out that people didn't actually like playing the Lions, there would be plenty of other things I can write, which indeed may be a better use of time. I had an idea for a renegade warband quest for example witht he central struggle being trying not to fall to chaos. Or, alternatively, we could jsut accept that the Lions are the villains of teh quest. Certainly I've written them as such (given the whole burning the abhuman children thing).

As I say, it's complicated, so it would be interesting to see what people thought.
 
I suppose it actually comes down to enjoying the narrative versus enjoying the quest, I think I've been enjoying the narrative very deeply.

However enjoying the quest elements of actually choosing things and arguing for things? For example since you brought up investigating the chaos wastes making constant arguments to prioritize it which have been seemingly poo-pooed by the majority of the rest of the playerbase despite it as you say not being an insignificant trouble.
That I think his left me with some mild annoyance, just to be as crystal clear as possible it's not your fault at all.

And indeed I'm sure it will be amusing when something does come out of there and causes us trouble again because it wasn't worth investigating until we had runes slapped on top of everything.

But even if it wasn't for the fact that I was trying to promote things like that that got delayed over and over and over again, (see also anything like soulbinding) even if it wasn't for that as you say there would be some frustration.
As you you think some of this comes from the unusual nature of the Lions.
I'm not sure if it comes from the Lions inherently being villains though.

I mean I think I could just as easily read the SOB's as villains as well, I mean I find the idea of destroying other people's religions pretty horrifying, the problem is that they seem more... Flexible and more competent.
It's not even just in this chapter, they genuinely come across as being more willing to try different approaches to solving stuff.

I don't think I get frustrated when the Lions do evil things per say, even going back to the chapter with the beastmen, I do get frustrated when they do things that feel....
Counterproductive to their own aims, things that don't necessarily always stem from votes.

For example chaos Mammoth rampage amongst the noviates, sure it's evil but it also feels stupid you know? Which I think I object to more.
Another previously cited example would be the Lions just slaying their way through Nehkaran cultists without even trying to eat their brains to gain data.

And indeed as you say it would not be helpful if I was indulging in those self destructive urges, but I think the urge's come from feeling like the Lions will never make a true effort to adapt themselves to the world.

This isn't universal, obviously the herald's have done it fairly well.

Some of it's just been bad rolls, you brought up the Under Empire managing to advance with some of this stuff the situation would be reaching the levels of creating a new crisis in the near-term, but wouldn't have if detecting them hadn't failed so many times, and I actually like that I like that there is some excitement from not knowing how things will go....

..But I really wish that something like that had been portrayed as them just having no data even until now, rather than being so openly dismissive.

Why? Because that dismissiveness we've seen has gotten The Lions killed before again and again, khong wasn't just a statue, the undead can't easily just be mobb rushed or snuck up on, etc.

I do admit a lot of that is nowhere near as bad as it could be they're much more pragmatic than many chapters. ( Templars killing primaries was refreshing but not at all pragmatic)

I do suppose it's compounded by the actions of some other factions though, not all of them to be clear was great and they seem to respond clever manner that wasn't impossibly outside their characterization....
But IDK I feel like some of the chapters enemies have held back a shocking amount

Khong was impressive but I really expected there to be more destructive beastmen raids by now using more clever methods.

Like they might have serious beef which civilization but the beastmen are not really supposed to be stupid, I keep thinking where all the rest of the magick rituals that transform humans(yes I do recall the one at the beginning)where are the things that break technology, where is the evidence of the poisoning water supplies, etc etc.

In all honesty there's probably a lot of that going on off-screen and as I've said before I'm probably being unfair even thinking this because thinking most of these things is more than a bit premature.

I'm probably again be there though these are just as I might have said before "vibes".

Sorry if this was unhelpful trying to give useful didn't want to wait too long and have my thoughts drift away from me.
 
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But IDK I feel like some of the chapters enemies have held back a shocking amount
We will certainly be seeing more of this as time progresses, but one thing I would emphasise for example is that a lot of this is largely below the Astartes notice. In the Griffon interlude we had the arabyan guy going round culling beatmen with his new rifle. There'll be a lot of that sort of thing, locals with new advanced munitions being able to take down beastmen in a way that they couldn't before. Also, you had a good roll a while ago, so have been broadcasting when Morrsleib is coming, and have been telling people to shelter etc in the later towns etc.

For example, the Jungle Elves have been in low level conflict with Imperial logging for a while, but a minor skirmish is definitely below the Astartes notice. Meanwhile, vast swathes of forest are Astartes hunting grounds, where either veterans go for entertainment, or Scouts get training. In the Mountains interlude we had Dleh and his squad culling beastmen, but that was only 10 scouts with heavy weapons, not anything significant.

For beastmen specifically you also destroyed the two largest herds in your territory, so there is that.

For others, yes there will indeed be stuff going on in future. The Dark and High elves have been fighting each other for a while for instance, but at some point they're going to top, and then wonder why they're not getting any goods from Araby anymore for example.


Is indeed a useful reply btw.
 
I have been long gone from any active participation in this quest, even as token as it currently is in the Orc Quest. It mostly comes from the format being too complex for me to understand the ramifications of our decisions. Not only that, but the timescale also plays its part; Grok's story can be viewed as a personal journey, while this is decidedly not that.

(I skipped Grok's planning votes too; I can not evaluate the benefits of approaching faction A versus talking to character B on the nuances of faith C, times n for the amount of action slots. Even binary choices can be hotly contested.)

So I am reading this purely as a story, and my observation is that it is too ambitious for the format it is in.

As always, you present the players with a number of problems that they have to prioritize, but I feel like the grand timescale doesn't work well with the actions on offer. I feel that in five or ten years, a lot more could have been done even within the limitation the company has, and it feels like they aren't making much progress -- or are even degenerating, when the dice fall the other way. This worked fine when the turns were yearly; we could have shifted our priorities and attended to most of the latest fires, at least making it look like we are doing all we could and reacting to the world around us; however, such flexibility is not available during decade long turns. An option once ignored is a long-lasting decision... which, given the limited action slots means the Marines are being slowly buried under a mountain of unresolved crises (and even the ones we attend to are only resolved as well as the dice allow).

On the other hand, the story told through yearly turns would never get anywhere, as the scale of the events is too big, and a perspective of decades is required to observe them properly.

As a result, my interest in this is a lot more 'detached' than it is for a much more tightly focused Orc Quest. There aren't any characters to attach myself to; only Chapters. Thirty marines dead, ten more recruited... they are numbers on a spreadsheet. My mindset is therefore much more experimental, as if I am reading a report on introducing a foreign body into a closed ecosystem. If they die, after all? So be it. I am fine with any conclusion, so long as there is one. What I don't want is to scrap the experiment halfways.

Seeing how the Sisters and what they represent are one of the possible conclusions, I don't have strong feelings against them winning out if their threat is not recognized and neutralized in a timely fashion.
 
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So just how well or how poorly do Wild Riders compare to our units stats wise? Does it even matter in this instance all that much? I know you don't like to do direct comparisons but I am curious.

Elves are generally less resilient than humans but for demigods of Kurnos I suspect they might at worst be equal to average here?
Obviously they have they element of having planned this assault for years, I'm not sure what other factors I should be considering here though. Maybe an ability to bring with them an Elemental Incarnate Of Beasts or something more southlandsy like Razodons?
The wood elves in general rely a lot on, yknow, the woods. Sometimes that's ok with them, and they'll be able to do a lot against human forces, that sort of thing, the humans might respond with artillery and just level the jungle or something, or, as in the interlude, use gas attacks. Lasguns would be pretty effective against treemen too bceause lasguns will still vaporise them if there's enough of them.

The elves won't have all teh stuff they'd have if they were in Athel Loren, but they can still marshal a good number of forces, wake up the forest dragons, that sort of thing, get some dinosaurs to help out etc.

There'll be a limited amount of high tier stuff, but it'll still be there. Orion and the Wild Riders notably, as well as Waystalkers for example. Orion can throw his spear and take down aircraft, a Waystalker could put an arrow through the eye-peice of a Marine, Wild Riders could probably go toe to toe with astartes, even if they couldn't match them in certain aspects.

In short therefore, the elves will be very dangerous in certain aspects, and they'll be especially dangerous beacuse they really really hurt the Imperium where it can't match them, mainly in mobility, skirmish etc.
 
I'm going to take a long hiatus from voting except post omakes if I feel like it for the moment. Got other stuff to do. Like those post graduate study I need to focus on among other things.
 
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Interesting points, specifically this:
I am fine with any conclusion, so long as there is one. What I don't want is to scrap the experiment halfways.
The problem of course is that once an experiement renders the appropirate data, it need not necessarily continue. My central idea for this quest was the Marines conquering Karak Eight Peaks, then Belegar turning up and asking for his home back and the Marines laughing at him. That was the sort of specific idea that I'd been thinking of. I have indeed written chapters and interludes where I've had the appropirate scenes of people marvelling at the Astartes, or them fighting Dwarves etc. I still like those ideas. I have cool ideas about a firebombing campaign against Athel Loren, or the Warp-Tanks of Zharr-Naggrund crawling across the plains, or of Lorgar Aurelian, Everchosen of Chaos, striding from the north into the Old World, or of Malekith leading his unified people in sky battles on floating Black Arks against Astartes voidcraft.

But I also do really find the format of the quest, as you say, perhaps overbearing. I can't slow down to yearly turns again that slow everything to a crawl. I think perhaps, I might look to do more timeskips or more interludes from other perspectives, turning this more into a story. That takes it away from being what it was intended to partly be, a ck2 quest, but I've also found that the ck2 format is somewhat limited.
 
The problem of course is that once an experiement renders the appropirate data, it need not necessarily continue.
That is not a problem, that's a feature. By far, the worst thing about CK2 quests is that they lack a definitive end point, and most of them are quietly abandoned as the author loses interest in the project.

History doesn't have an end, but stories do. What is the appropriate point after which you could safely conclude it? Having one in mind really helps with planning and focusing the story on the "important" parts.
My central idea for this quest was the Marines conquering Karak Eight Peaks, then Belegar turning up and asking for his home back and the Marines laughing at him. That was the sort of specific idea that I'd been thinking of.
That's as good a finish as any.

From what I am seeing, Compliance as the Imperials understand it is but a pipe dream, and the most likely result is that Astartes will go native, becoming yet another faction locked into a power struggle with the rest. The planet that could balance out so many different influences (invluding Chaos itself, the fact that gives Hath-Horeb a constant headache) will not yield to an isolated force, but will accomodate it and make it a part of its new ecosystem. The Lions will make a number of upsets before hitting the ceiling of what is possible and stalling. I want to see how far they can go; the pinnacle of their achievements.

The Karak Eight Peaks scene works just fine for that purpose. Then again, you might have other ideas... and the dice might have theirs.

I think perhaps, I might look to do more timeskips or more interludes from other perspectives, turning this more into a story.
Interludes is why I read this, yes. I mean, the turns themselves are rather dry, and different PoVs illustrate the results a lot better.

The biggest problem I see with decade long turns is that they keep the attitude behind yearly turns, "a problem not attended is a problem ignored", while keeping roughly the same amount of actions. There is no reasonable explanation for why the Lions would leave some trouble to fester for as long as they do, and not checking, for example, for any residual influence of Flesh-that-Hates in those 20 years. The reason, of course, is that we don't have enough action slots... but your GMing philosophy makes it "what the players don't remember, the players don't have", and the Lions must have forgotten about the thing that will likely manifest in some unpleasant way and catch them by surprise while the players are perfectly aware of it.

The number of actions got reduced tenfold, but the scope of the actions didn't get a proportional increase. Instead, we focus on a single area real hard at the expense of everything else.

I don't have an easy solution to this problem. You can't solve it by increasing the amount of actions. Actions could be broader, but how broad does it need to be to include things like this?
On losses, if you continue to facetank threats then yea that sort of thing happens. It's been 20 years since the Flesh-that-Hates, and in that time you've not decided to go investigate the chaos wastes yet.
Actions not chosen lead to consequences same as the ones that are. Therefore, actions represent both what the players choose to focus on, and what they have time for. These two values are independent from one another.

This problem plagues the beginning QMs who struggle with poor choice design. There are often choices like this:
You just woke up and are free 'til noon. What do you do?
[] Make breakfast
[] Take a shower
[] Tidy up the bed
...which only leave questions. If we choose to make breakfast, does it mean we forego showering? Why, what's the logic behind this? Why is everything exclusive when it's all a part of morning routine? There is more than enough time for all of them! Does it mean we get interrupted or something?

You can try to wave it away by stating that making a breakfast is actually a highly complex process, and that you do research for the finest recipes by the most exquisite chefs before going to the shop for groceries (unshowered, and with a messy bed), and that is how you spend hours to get a singular result. But you only can stretch the suspension of disbelief so far.

(Incidentally, this would be a perfectly fine choice if one only had 15 minutes, but then what kind of story is told in 15 minutes intervals? It diminishes the importance and impact of the choices.)

I am exaggerating for demonstrative purposes, and you are far from a beginning QM, so it isn't as glaring, but I do believe there is currently a disconnect between the two aspects the actions are supposed to represent. There are some things that are natural for the Lions to ignore without the players taking action to dispel such notion, like them conflating Skaven with other beastmen and being blind to their activity as a faction, and there are things that feel significantly less so.
 
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Some interesting points here for reflection too.


The biggest problem I see with decade long turns is that they keep the attitude behind yearly turns, "a problem not attended is a problem ignored", while keeping roughly the same amount of actions. There is no reasonable explanation for why the Lions would leave some trouble to fester for as long as they do, and not checking, for example, for any residual influence of Flesh-that-Hates in those 20 years. The reason, of course, is that we don't have enough action slots... but your GMing philosophy makes it "what the players don't remember, the players don't have", and the Lions must have forgotten about the thing that will likely manifest in some unpleasant way and catch them by surprise while the players are perfectly aware of it.
To clarify a couple of points here, on the 20 years thing, for example, as far as the Lions are aware, everyone in the Chaos Wastes from Norsca to almost as far as Cathay died. Vast swathes of the Wastes' population, including tribes like the Kurgan etc, just wiped out by the stead creep of the Flesh. That happened off screen, the Chapter were more interested in Norsca etc obviously. When the Chapter banished the Flesh, I suppose it all sort of disolved or something, so it's really only now that there's even animals starting to pop up again. Really it would be quite hellish I should write an interlude or something on it. Subsequently, because you've got Norscan Dwarves on side, and because they at least have some rangers about in eastern Norsca, they'd have informed you if they started seeing large numbers of Chaos-aligned humans appearing. Similarly, the tribes north of Cathay heard about this all and said 'hm no lets not go over there it sucks'. So for that specific example, the Chapter is assuming status quo, nothing necessarily going on that requires them to deploy, therefore there's been no automatic deployment, as there is for standard ops for example against random herds of beastmen that appear in the Southlands sometimes. The Chapter will be fighting offscreen a lot, but it's low intensity stuff, below the notice of the leadership (and therefore my writing).

Comparably, there's not really been that much discussion on finding that Chaos Sorcerer, who has indeed been doing stuff for 20 years, and therefore indicates that there's more going on there. I'd say that yes you have the action economy to deal with, but also that it's not necessarily the players (and chapter) forgetting about things, it's more that if it's not seen as important, in character or otherwise, then it's not high priority.

One pretty clearcut example of players forgetting things that I might point to would be the Knights. They've been deployed twice, with the upcomming turn being the second example. They are perhaps your single greatest asset, but because the Compliance has been peicemeal and sporadic and reactive rather than a consistent approach, the Knights have mostly stayed in their hangars.
Therefore, actions represent both what the players choose to focus on, and what they have time for. These two values are independent from one another.
I'd add a third, in the aspect of capability. For some things you simply lack the resources. For example, you might say that a lot of the Learning actions could have been pursued over time as broader objectives, but equally I might say that you lack the research staff to do that. Hath-Horeb is doing a lot of carrying as both the most knowledable and one of the most experienced people, but also as the Chapter's chief psyker and most powerful wizard.

In this way, it's not necessarily that the problem is ignored, but that the players (the Chapter in universe) have higher priority issues. Take the Amputari for example. They emerged from the Flesh as capable and fearsome xenoforms, and you spent about 4 actions I think trying to destroy them. You didn't manage it, they're endemic to the World's Edge Mountains now, but you did significantly reduce their numbers. If you hadn't done that they might have spread into Ostermark or Kislev, or down into the Underway and colonised further along. You wouldn't necessarily have ignored or forgotten about them in those cases, but you'd simply have decided that those potential outcomes were acceptable and that you had better things to do. In those 4 actions you might have conquered the Empire for example.

Same for Bretonnia. That's been going on for a while, the Chapter know about it, they just have other stuff they're focusing on. Or the Tomb Kings. I think perhaps 5 tuns passed between Aghiles dissapearing off into the desert, some scouts going missing there, then over 3 turns Hath-Horeb standing about thinking 'those clouds look funny, looks like someones got some kind of storm of magic going on over there', and then Settra riding out etc. The actions do have to be limited for a reason. I suppose instead I could go with some sort of point based sytem, lets say you have 200 points to represent 2 actions, adn you have to distrute those over 5 different actions in whatever priority you see fit, that sort of thing.


I might make a further remark that although I get that there's a lot of moving parts and the quest becomes quite complex, one of the major problems has been an overreliance on particular people to direct the quest, notably 16, rx and Zeitgeist. To be honest I dont blame the players/chapter for forgetting things because there's a lack of what we might call corporate memory here because the cognitive load is distributed onto too small a group.

This is one of the things which makes me question whether this should remain in the same format, indeed perhaps even if it should remain a quest at all. There's some inherant weaknesses of the system (both mine and CK2s more broadly as a format), which I find very frustrating. Certainly I have no intention of writing out the whole Compliance for IRL years of time. I'm far more invested in Grok's story in Orc Quest at present.

This is of course partly based on From the Brink, which has been going on 8 years now. I could potentially write for that length of time, significantly increasing the tiem between updates etc, if there was enough interest, but I think frankly I'd just do other stuff.
 
I am hoping that if this quest is to end sooner than later that we indeed can still have some sort of conclusion regarding all the lingering plot threads. Nagash, the Unkown sorceror of the wastes, fate of the Sigmarites, the spread of imperial technology to the Skaven and Chaos dwarves, etc.
If turning this into a traditional story has a better chance of actually seeing these things through I wouldn't be against that.

I have been the largest fan of this I think, but I don't want you to either burn yourself out or spend another year dissatisfied. I truly would find it tragic if things ended here the way they are though.
If the game were to end in four turns I wouldn't be heartbroken or anything though.

Also, I always felt this quest had an endpoint in mind.
Either the extinction of the imperium or its conquest of the planet being complete, the later though leaving these imperials as unrecognizable as those who went on the Abyssal Crusade. I never felt like we were bumbling towards nothing in the dark.
As for a points system instead of the action economy we have now, if that could save the quest or improve it too, I'd be for it.


I think my stance is similar to Abe Lincolns on his direction of the war, I'm pro doing whatever leads to an outcome where this doesn't die with many plot threads hanging.
EDIT: Also I want to voice agreement about interludes being the best part of this quest. The main reason I objected back around turn eight if I recall was mainly because it left what was going on with Settra mystery for long enough to become frustrating. That was neither an issue in the quest before that point nor after it IMO.
 
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I agree with @Nevill and @16 characters, Interludes are one of the reasons why I kept on reading despite the... let's just say frustrating turns of events that's being unleashed on our poor chapter of space marines who seems to be dying en masse. It just irks me that squads of them dies due to ridiculous things that I feel shouldn't affect them in any way other than being wounded. That's just me though, but yeah, going back, I very much love the interludes.
 
''That happened off screen, the Chapter were more interested in Norsca etc obviously. When the Chapter banished the Flesh, I suppose it all sort of dissolved or something, so it's really only now that there's even animals starting to pop up again. Really it would be quite hellish I should write an interlude or something on it. ''

I actually indeed think this would be really really cool. You could have a Magos Biologus documenting the progression of a new ecosystem.

Starting with fungus (possibley orkoid funguses too) degrading all the dead flesh then soils forming, then pioneer plants, then probably hordes and hordes of like snotlings and rats and rabbits then followed by other life forms hunting them and finally like Ungols exiled from Kislev as it's first new inhabitants most likely?

....Huh damn, the native fungal communites were even bloody worse than orkoid growths. Tendrophilus Fungus
Thank the Emperor the place was sterilized by the dark gods stupidity.

EDIT:

If you need some inspiration there's plenty written about this sort of thing in non-fiction:

Ecological Succession: Definition, Types, Stages & Examples

Ecological succession describes changes that occur in a community over time. Primary succession begins on bare substrate with no life. Pioneer plant species move in first. Secondary succession occurs due to disturbance. A climax community is a fully mature end stage of succession.
www.unep.org

How Chernobyl has become an unexpected haven for wildlife

Many people think the area around the Chernobyl nuclear plant is a place of post-apocalyptic desolation. But more than 30 years after one of the facility’s reactors exploded, sparking the worst nuclear accident in human history, science tells us something very different.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2sUFP9zrbg

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0ZnlfDkErM

The Wiki also gives a decent description of the eccosystems of the Troll Country, which might be the sort of organisms driving new succession I would think.

''At first sight, Troll Country is one of the bleakest landscapes imaginable. Grassy steppe to the south, scrubby tundra to the north, with only a few hill ranges and forests to break the monotony. Overshadowing the far north are the brutal mountain ranges of Norsca, the only blessing of which is to provide an imperfect impediment to the Chaos Wastes. However, the steppe grasses are long, and many different birds nest there, attracting rats and foxes. Reindeer graze lichens in the cruelly bitter winters and grasses in the short summers. Wolves prey on all that moves. When the snow melts for a few warm months, rare plants and valuable herbs put forth colourful blossoms, and insects buzz. Despite the inhospitable climate, a few Men live here permanent''
 
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So I think we are now perfectly poised to reunite the Karaz Ankor against us, because lets be honest, fighting Orion and Nagash is obviously not enough of a challenge for us impervious, unkillable, indestructible, fast reproducing ubermenchen.
I mean we've descrated and sacked Barak Varr now surely, we've reunited their heretic kin in the north, and we've taken the sacred Karak Zorn and are wiping our oversized hineys on it. Surely thats like 100 grudges combined right?
Come at us DWARVES COME AND FIGHT!

*squints at script*
Huh we aren't the fastest breeders on the planet yet? Well why haven't we been working to fix that? *gets whipsers from the other staff*
What do you mean fighting greater daemons takes priority over reengineering our populace? Gosh, you guys have skewed priorites!
I mean just because we have neither spawning pools, nor rat mothers, nor vitae wombs as a starting basis shouldn't mean we should throw our hands up.
[proceeds to choke to death on my own hubris}
 
Slave War Interlude
Slave War Interlude

The Slave War of 2137 was somewhat of an embarrassment to the Chapter.

It wasn't unusual for the Librarius to redact records. After all, significant portions of the Celestial Lions' history had already been restricted to the original veterans of the Chapter to hide the Shame of Khattar.

However, in the annals of the Lions, the Slave War would remain hidden, though more subtly. Instead of being outright restricted, it was merely poorly indexed, the compu-units which processed mem-slips in the Librarium's main database would encounter errors when accessing the entry, and the Codiciers were instructed to direct enquiries away from the information.

It wasn't embarrassing because of any great loss by the Chapter, indeed, not a single Marine had even been wounded during the War. However, the War itself was a cause of shame for the Chapter's officers and many involved sought to forget it.

It began a generation ago, when the Chapter threw down the Tomb Kings and brought their works low. The whole of Araby, including great cities which had stood for centuries, was now in chaos, with rivers clogged with sand, crops destroyed by storms and wandering bands of undead massacring villagers. The Chapter had eventually settled for simply moving the population of Araby across the mountains, into the previously sparsely populated Land of Assassins, and over a period of years all the population of northern Araby had either been evacuated, or had taken ship for Tilea. The fates of the Arabyans had been cruel for many years, and many were sold into debt-bondage, or in some cases simply massacred by their hosts for slights real or imagined, but eventually the situation had stabilised, and there were only a few squatting tribes left in the ruins of Al-Haikk or Fyrus.

But it hadn't been that way for long. The same smugglers and corsairs, generally of Arabyan stock in the first place, had brought their countrymen to Tilea, now managed to get the Tileans to pay them to take the Arabyans back!

Nobles of the Southern Realms would sponsor colonising expeditions, new vassal states which were intended to take advantage of the Terra Nullis of Araby, while relying on the preoccupation of the Imperium to hide their actions.

It worked, indeed it was very successful. The scavenged wealth of Araby flowed north across the sea and back flowed seedcorn and saplings, and soon enough the desert began to recede and orchards sprang up.

But who to work such vineyards? It couldn't be citizens, that would be far too expensive, and subject to great risk, for to the merchant lords of Tilea, Araby was now a perilous land. But, happily there was still a large population of labour available, and soon enough laws were passed in Remas, and ordinances in Luccini. Arabyan practices were to be criminalised, from the wearing of specific clothing, to the practice of religion, and the punishment was to be transportation to the Arabyan estates.

While officially, a criminal's 'debt' could be worked off, in fact the estate overseers would often charge the workers for their food, their clothing, even their shelter, and the workers swiftly became slaves. Indeed, on the island of Fyrus, where the Great Sultan Aklan'd had been born, the city had to be reworked to provide greater slave pens and harbours and the statue to the Sultan torn down, the base of the monument to Araby's greatest hero now used as a dais for auctions. By its third year in operation, the island had become so renowned for the training and export of slaves that the fell Druchii themselves had come to trade, their malevolent vessels often being seen in the port.

Where then was the Imperium? Certainly, reports of this activity had wound their way over the years to the Lions' ears, but simply put, it was below their notice. The Sultan Juhes and his Admiral Reis knew of it, yet could devote little attention to it, themselves being occupied with reestablishing a whole civilisation in the Land of Assassins. The Fabricator-General of Mallus, Magna-Thal knew of it, but as the coast of Araby was considered a low-grade territory with few resources, the Magi had little attention for how the locals organised their affairs. The Lady Hermina had often lamented the situation in previous years, but herself could do little, and after the Lady's death, her followers had their own affairs to tend to.

Even the Astartes knew of it, through their Master of the Watch, Nassor. Yet, being of a harsh and inflexible disposition, the Black Lion had little time for mortals who would allow themselves to be made slaves.

The Arabyans wailed in their shackles. Many resisted, but the Tileans were cruel indeed, for they knew they were outnumbered by their slaves, and committed brutalities uncounted against them to ensure their compliance.

Yet someone heard.

The prayers of the slaves flowed through the Realm of Dreams to one who existed half in reality and half in that thoughtflow.

Lash on back. Stroke of overseer. Heat of the sun. Salt of brow.

The Pridelord felt them through his dreams. He felt the misery and sorrow of his people. He felt rough blades strike into his flesh, felt the calloused hands of children on idols to his winged self.

"They pray to me." Amra told Natohk, "I hear their pleas. They work to make wonders of heresy, to build statues of foreign gods, to build idols of cruelty and malice."

"Freedom has never been given to Humanity." replied the High Deathspeaker, "The Emperor's gift to us all is struggle, the revelation that our place in the Galaxy is assured, yet is one we must fight for."

"Then we fight."

The Lions stepped to marshal, every brother not in service or on deployment, and their mortal servants too.

The slave colonies fell in a single night, the overseers were slain and their slaves' shackled struck off.

Then the Thunderhawks turned northward, and before them roiled a great storm as strange lights danced upon the clouds.

"Behold!" cried the Storm aloud.

The Winged Lion roared, the cloudmaw stretching to engulf the sky, his wings stretching from horizon to horizon.

"Behold, my sword destroys the faithless!" and lightening stuck from the Lion's eyes, destroying roofs and causing terror to great flocks of birds that would dart down and attack anything they could see.

The beasts of the ocean threw themselves upon the Tilean ships, great whales shattered them and all along coast and river strange creatures burrowed from the sand and mud, slithering in land, gnawing on the ankles of cattle and slaying entire herds in a night.

"Behold, I send my scourge, I send my Golden Sons!" and Thunderhawks stooped low on cities, the Celestial Lions striking forth, bolters spitting their mass-reactive rounds. The Priests of Remas died in their throngs as they prayed to false gods. The nobles of Luccini fled to their citadels and towers, only for the battlecannons of the Thunderhawks to shatter them in ruin.

Upon the Trantine Hills an armoured fist sped forward, smashing the confused armies and mercenary companies, putting any man bearing sword or whip to death, and the snarling visage of the Celestial captains put faith to the Arabyan prayers.

Among the Lions there was one who's heart was heavy. Though no word or recriminations came, Nassor took off his warplate, and marched with his company in the armour of a Battle Brother. He set aside his master-crafted weapons, taking only a combat knife and a bolter, and stood in the front line when the Company fought. Some would later say that he put himself in danger overmuch, but none could doubt his courage, and when the deployment was done, Black Nassor presented himself to the Chapter Master to offer his resignation for his failure.

Amra spoke not a word, his metal face inscrutible and cold, but with a gesture he set the matter aside.

Miragliano fell in a single night. Amra stalked it's streets as a lion, and the people of that city quailed in fear, for where his light shone, men died, save for those who made the sign of the Aquila, or painted such upon their doors.

And in the morning Tilea was faithful.
 
Wow, that was quite a conquest indeed, happy to see the timeline sped up a little bit too. I would not want to lose this endevour simply from you growing bored after all. Also, Nassor is...capable of feeling emotions other than anger and contempt? Is he okay? Did he have a micro-stroke that altered his brain?
I really like that the procession and the worship of Amra has actually now lead to other changes in the plot, at the time I was worried it might have been a wasted vote.

''
"Behold!" cried the Storm aloud.

The Winged Lion roared, the cloudmaw stretching to engulf the sky, his wings stretching from horizon to horizon.

"Behold, my sword destroys the faithless!" and lightning stuck from the Lion's eyes, destroying roofs and causing terror to great flocks of birds that would dart down and attack anything they could see.

The beasts of the ocean threw themselves upon the Tilean ships, great whales shattered them and all along coast and river strange creatures burrowed from the sand and mud, slithering in land, gnawing on the ankles of cattle and slaying entire herds in a night.''

What actually happened here though? Holograms and Servitor beasts, psychic projections, spells of ghur and ghyran?

Or is it meant to be ambiguous?
 
So we did the Seven Plagues in one night then? Nice.

Always appreciate a little bit of Old Testament retribution.
 
Except for the Locust one. That would have been counterproductive anyway since we mean to occupy this place rather than merely razing and moving on.
 
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