Depends why, there's an underground tunnel between Tilea and Solland so that could be used as an example, but also keep in mind that the Empire authories might not look kindly on what seems to be a secret invasion via refugees
Solland is empty and could do with being filled up provided they make themselves useful which is why what stands for the administratum will screen the potential candidates for Solland's needs and what the Solland's nobility and people are needing.
COnsider the impacts on the relevant places, but yea you have options. They can even go back to araby if you provide enough food for them through either uplift or other stuff
Looking back at past actions I would consider starting first nearby with the Southlands as the first step to alleviate the burden.
 
Last edited:
Apologies for asking questions I'm sure you feel you've covered but whose answers I have not found nor remembered,
Considering this is A: a game about adaptation, B: We are going to have to get creative with Geneseed no matter what now, and C: Are already heretics...

Can we make psuedo-marines a viable option in our forces?

At many points during the Great Crusade many adults notably the often the adoptive parents of the primarchs were converted into ''marines'' although this was probably through modified processes.
Gland Warriors, which my brain thinks of as being in a similar space.. I think we're an official imperial ''product'' as it were too were they not?

What if we did something simpler? The first three or so implanted organs seem like the sort to regulate themselves after all. They basically just induce gigantism and muscle growth and improve circulation (one of the biggest problems for IRL giant humans)to compensate for that.

If we say focus on growing more organs in condemned criminals, could we bolster the lion guard more quickly with soldiers only given the first few organs, so that the cream of the crop from this first round of Olympics doesn't go to waste?

Alternatively, if that sort of thing is currently completely unacceptable/unviable given we have contacts with both the sororitas(who use such)and the mechanicus(who likely have experience making such) could we have human-sized suits of power armor commissioned for them so that they could serve as elite leaders (or rather be nudged towards being leaders) amongst our mortal troops at least?
 
I have an idea of the endgame if the Lions are lucky to reach that far.

You ever played homeworld? I think that will be how the Lion's descendants will make the trip back.
 
@rx915
I've never played homeworld nor known nor have heard of it?

If I were to take a very wild guess...Are you proposing some necron-level time manipulation thing where we turn everyone into deamon princes Imperial Atartess Living Saints with Nothing Heretical About Them:whistle: and then using such timewarping we show up back before the inquisition betrayed us and proceeded to betray the rest of the forces of Armageddon to start the Months Of Shame early?

(Sidenote: Yes I'm very bitter about the months of shame, the lions at least gave the inquisition Greif, the Armageddon Steel Legion did literally did nothing wrong and they wanted them killed over successfully fighting deamons....and they had the gall to think no one would fight them over such. So my Anti-Inquisitorial bias does stem from more than just the fate of the lions.)

EDIT: Just looked it up, it seems to be a more generalized Reconquista-type thing, which hell yes I think should be our ultimate goal. Imperium Tricundus with Opium-lite and Elves let's go! .....but like we do so only after we build up maximally first, we won't make the same mistakes of striking too soon as many other fools have of course.(Hubris is a cowards word and all that)
 
Last edited:
@rx915
I've never played homeworld nor known nor have heard of it?

If I were to take a very wild guess...Are you proposing some necron-level time manipulation thing where we turn everyone into deamon princes Imperial Atartess Living Saints with Nothing Heretical About Them:whistle: and then using such timewarping we show up back before the inquisition betrayed us and proceeded to betray the rest of the forces of Armageddon to start the Months Of Shame early?

(Sidenote: Yes I'm very bitter about the months of shame, the lions at least gave the inquisition Greif, the Armageddon Steel Legion did literally did nothing wrong and they wanted them killed over successfully fighting deamons....and they had the gall to think no one would fight them over such. So my Anti-Inquisitorial bias does stem from more than just the fate of the lions.)

EDIT: Just looked it up, it seems to be a more generalized Reconquista-type thing, which hell yes I think should be our ultimate goal. Imperium Tricundus with Opium-lite and Elves let's go! .....but like we do so only after we build up maximally first, we won't make the same mistakes of striking too soon as many other fools have of course.(Hubris is a cowards word and all that)
That's some nice imagination but no.

The homeworld setup is that once the planet is unified in a sense they then make a mothership investing in time and resources to make to travel space and come back to a location they deem their first home which is the closest path to the Imperium. It would be most handy if the STC library does contain a plan for one when it's time to look into it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvOj_2sJ1ok
 
Their Mothership looks tiny compared to what I'd imagine an imperium derived culture would want to build though.

I wouldn't be shocked if we ended up losing enough history to make such plausible though, already much of the guard and the marines have been replaced with those born on mallus, within another generation of hard fighting I'd be shocked if the turnover wasn't night total.
 
At many points during the Great Crusade many adults notably the often the adoptive parents of the primarchs were converted into ''marines'' although this was probably through modified processes.
Gland Warriors, which my brain thinks of as being in a similar space.. I think we're an official imperial ''product'' as it were too were they not?
that was an expensive, specialized process done only to privileged few. So I doubt we'd be doing that.
What if we did something simpler? The first three or so implanted organs seem like the sort to regulate themselves after all. They basically just induce gigantism and muscle growth and improve circulation (one of the biggest problems for IRL giant humans)to compensate for that.
And I'm kind of icky on ordering Astartes from Wish. Even if we could, that doesn't mean we should. I don't want something to taint or devalue the spirit of process and creation of Astartehood just to create some disposable troops.
 
Their Mothership looks tiny compared to what I'd imagine an imperium derived culture would want to build though.

I wouldn't be shocked if we ended up losing enough history to make such plausible though, already much of the guard and the marines have been replaced with those born on mallus, within another generation of hard fighting I'd be shocked if the turnover wasn't night total.
It's the spirit of it. Obviously the Mallus mothership would be more bigger for what it's meant for comparable to their primarch's own flagship the Phalanx if they could reach it.
 
that was an expensive, specialized process done only to privileged few. So I doubt we'd be doing that.

And I'm kind of icky on ordering Astartes from Wish. Even if we could, that doesn't mean we should. I don't want something to taint or devalue the spirit of process and creation of Astartehood just to create some disposable troops.
Before I say anything else I want to apologize for making this so long, I don't mean to be antagonistic but I feel like I probably did a very bad job explaining why I was considering this earlier and desire to rectify that. This also is meant more for the thread in general for evaluating our postion.


That said...
Firstly mega-sized gland warriors wouldn't be disposable, not by imperial standards anyway. It would still take us some years to train them to work with other forces and we'd want to be doing this anyway in part to enhance their suitability.

That is to say they wouldn't be disposable anymore than the rest of our dudes are, duty to die for the emperor and all that stuff being embedded in imperial culture. The idea is though even for just regular troopers that ordinarily you try to survive as long as possible so that you can take more of the emperors enemies with you. Yes your expected to die in the end, but for a pourpose, and so are the marines. In fact, it goes double for the marines given their psycho conditioning, they are meant not to fear death not *just* to make them fiercer but also because they are in fact expected to eventually die in battle.

Additionally they would almost certainly have higher survival rates than most mortals or most marines recruits mainly because: A not enduring many many round of brain surgery(a ton of later organs affect the brain)*, and B having enhanced blood clotting(from the second heart being already an astonishing thing) making a risk of bleeding out fairly negligible amongst them plus C, being strong enough to dig themselves out of things like small building collapses in most cases.

Additionally Astarteshood (in terms of being maximally selective) was ''tainted'' (from an imperial point of view) from the moment we decided to A: Allow mutants to stay in the legion and B to commence with the whole progenoid doubling project(which we never finished and should at some point) so that seems a silly thing to worry about now.

The fact they wouldn't be considered Astartes anyway though wouldn't need to be a bad thing. They could considered as having been blessed by these godlike men. Which I doesn't seem like a taint to me, if anything it establishes a closer relationship with the population**. And also that trials involving developing organs are the keys to that full social status. Which the population of this feral world wouldn't learn otherwise anyway.

Remember perception is everything and right now this would still be an improvement in perception over ''the big dudes from space who eat our children'' which I recall being a societal perception in Araby our G.M brought up. We already are improving that, but if the next step sees us going from being seen as vicious star tyrants to incompetent star tyrants I think we could have revolts on our hands.

Do you imagine our client states have not watched our numbers diminishing from casualties? If we get down to 100 marines before we can begin to restock I think that will look really really bad for us.




All that said again I don't wish to be dismissive we can indeed return to regular marine production, but to my understanding that will take years. Years in which the skaven, or the lizardmen or chaos forces might attack our holdings.

Best case scenario, I can envision with mechanicus aide and biomancy we start with maybe 100 spare progenoids. If we suceed at getting the zygotes to divide an extra time we maybe have 200. Lets say we manage to get a lot of condemed people sent our way so that their deaths can at least be useful, for PR because I'm trying to imagine a best case, we have the ministorum bless them and convince them their souls will find salvation if they choose to die in this way by becoming incubators for astartes organs.

Lets say all of that goes well, during that say what? Five year time span assuming good rolls everywhere we now have a half stock of organs and can begin regular recruitment again.
Where will our other forces be in the meantime? most likely seeing further depletion against the tomb kings since ideally no one else comes after us in that time. Plus there will likely be more scattering from bringing staff to norsca to study under the dwarves at minimum so the staff in the core territories will be in no way anywhere near full strength no matter what in the near future I think.


...But let's say I was to agree with you that it would be too costly to try what I imagined.
I just might think that in the future given I could be missing some factor that you know more about than I do.

Whats your solution for the problem of rebuilding a chapter and army around it(that at the momgenderedmostly PDF quality or lower) with only 200 marines and only the gen-seed inside them remaining viable? Or at minimum keeping things stable.

What do you think the alternativs are? What would you endorse?
Maybe making power armor for ogres?, flying our very small airforce over to cathay to try and nuke the maw and convert the ogre kingdoms early?

Making huge concessions to obtain vampiric aid? The strigoi would obviously be desperate enought to work with us but if we rushed that and made it public it could get really messy really quickly.

Stealing Rat Ogres to turn into a servitor fighting force? Do I need to elaborate on how badly this could go if it was meant to be a gap filling measure done over only a few years. I'll do so if asked.

Asking the skittari to abandon their guarding duties? Maybe this could work if we want our most vulnerable supply lines to oil and metalworks to be unguarded but it's obviously a gamble.

Maybe we could get lucky and our giants could be convinced to recruit more of their kind and assigned to guarding our weakest borders, maybe in groups of five? Thats the most viable thing coming to my mind right now.

We can do these obviously but they seem even more impractical to me.

So TLDR for this later segment: Maybe Its a bad plan but do you or anyone else have a better one right now? I'd love hear it if so.
 
Last edited:
Okay, so it seems many of my fellow posters don't generally like my ideas for expanding our forces. Namely making it a goal to try and see about producing geneseed organs in various new ways. Converting skaven to the cause to make up for our horribly borked attrition rates that will almost certainly get worse the moment the greater Imperium try to hit us with what they have. Trying push to create some cavalry divisions so our remaining mortal troops might be much more mobile and independent forces.

It's fine I won't pretend to be a military or civil engineering expert at all.

I think I've been limiting my scope a little too much though anyway.
What if we looked more towards the ocean for converts and expansion?
We could contact some merpeople and or sirens and tell them that if they spread the word of how great the Emperor is up and down the coasts of
the world that we will reward them handsomely.
There's plenty we could give them too, pelegar bodyguards could be grown for them. We could have had the mechanicus turn some of the larger marine life into servitors to serve them.

We could give them spectorin corral paste (for making underwater buildings)for the low low price of continuing to proselytize for us.
The Imperium probably knows how to produce things like spear guns UAV's, etc.
If such kept going well we would probably end up with a detailed view of the world's coastlines I reckon.

If that never becomes feasible we also have the cults of Manan to consider. We have made positive contact with them, I figure if can convince them to pay lip service to the idea that Manan is an aspect of GEOM, we can probably go quite far with their navigational services.
It helps that we will surely have mutual enemies in the form of all sorts of Orkish and Dark Elven pirates that i'm sure they'd appreciate us removing from their concerns.

The Sea Elves/ High Elves of Cothique/Lothern/whatever are where my biggest worries crop up though. We've done very little to make mutually beneficial peaceful contact with them and accidentally antagonizing them could not only help start what I might call a ''stupid war'' but I fear may indirectly strengthen Malekiths lackeys.

I figure our best shot is making contact with our diplomatic core through their southland colonies on the far coast after we finish driving off the bloody hand orks. Hopefully, they won't have gotten too culturally wonky in their isolation a la chrace or the eonir and might be willing to talk about mutual defense.
If anyone has a better plan for such though I'm all for hearing such out though.

EDIT: Fuck me, I forgot about how we will probably need to keep a watch for the Skaven Clanfleets if we try to take the southern realms in the near future.

Maybe we can ask Sartosa to do so if we can take the place mostly intact?

EDIT 2: Or do those clanfleets not actually exist yet? They feel like one of the later Skaven innovations?
 
Last edited:
Have been away for a bit but back now so will address. To begin on the subject of discount-SMs
Can we make psuedo-marines a viable option in our forces?

Alternatively, if that sort of thing is currently completely unacceptable/unviable given we have contacts with both the sororitas(who use such)and the mechanicus(who likely have experience making such) could we have human-sized suits of power armor commissioned for them so that they could serve as elite leaders (or rather be nudged towards being leaders) amongst our mortal troops at least?

A space marine is more than merely their body, they a mix of tech like power armour, their biology, but also importantly their training and indoctrination. The Imperium possesses these various things in different measures, for example, yea, maybe a Karaphron Breacher or other high end battle servitor has similar strength or resilience to a space marine, but it doesn't have the training etc so it would still lose in a fight. A Soroitas has the same training and and resilience (or near enough not to matter much), but doesn't have the training, equipment, or 'quality' of a space marine. In short, what makes them so great and so effective as warriors is that they're high quality, they're the highest quality thing the Imperium can produce at sufficient scale to actually deploy units of them. Now sure some Magos could make a murder-servitor of exceptional quality, but that's not a process, that's a 'bespoke' thing where they'd have to make them one at a time, whereas the Astartes project is pretty consistent in results etc.

No one is going to do an Astartes' job as good as an Astartes. That's a pretty flat statement. You can come in and say 'oh but what about x' but its meant to be broad. I like the idea of 'improving' the process, that's why I drew the Rapid Zygote Maturation stuff from Huron, and why I lean on Badab in general with this quest.

I'd also say that while maybe the Imperium could do this, Space Marines wouldn't. I think I've mentioned it previously but I'd intend that if the Chapter was having resource problems they'd cannibalise the other bits of the Imperium-on-Mallus. I've alluded to this before:

In the absence of Apothecaries, the Scouts had turned to their own medicine, mutilating the crew members and serfs, harvesting their organs and sinews to try to substitute for the gene-seed they were to receive. The ship had eaten itself from the inside, and instead of warriors, Natohk faced great mounds of pulsating flesh, many with multiple arms crudely sewn on, their innards extruding from places where their skin couldn't contain them, entrails bursting out as if a perverse reflection of the breaching charges used to gain access to the ship.

However in your current state this shouldn't be necessary. My point is that because you chose to play Marines the Marines will put themselves first. It would be out of character for them to divert resources to make worse versions of themselves when there's not some urgent need for it, which there isn't.

I'm quite interested in how you'll look to 'improve' Astartes in general btw. As a short note on how you might do this, maybe enchant the Black Carapace bits, or replace them with that magic elf metal or something. Put a seed from the oak of ages in their chests instead of a second heart. Have them drink dragon blood, experiment to make not-Vampires (eg an elixir of life deal like with the original vamps), do some Stormcast Eternals stuff and make magic bodies to put their souls in, deploy magic items at scale, such as a Seeds of Rebirth, or Dwarf Runecraft stuff, all sorts of things really, put a rune of speed on a suit or terminator armour, make power armour out of gromril.

In general I'm pretty indulgent as a QM, so if you did some of this I'd be inclined to make it interesting rather than just saying 'Brother so and so drank the dragon blood and nothing happened'.

Anyway, I think that's addressed, but to move to the wider point

So TLDR for this later segment: Maybe Its a bad plan but do you or anyone else have a better one right now? I'd love hear it if so.

It's fine I won't pretend to be a military or civil engineering expert at all.

I certainly don't require people to be experts, that would be pretty silly, and I'm happy to take ideas rather than specific plans.

Essentially, as I've mentioned before, what is the problem you are trying to solve?

If your marines are dying lots then.... get other weapons? You have 3 titans and an airforce. You have thousands of techpriests, you have Magi and Techmarines. Build a Valkyrie factory, build a gun and artillery factory, build a tank factory, build a chemical weapons factory.

Actually uplift people. You haven't done this yet. Yes there's been other stuff to do, sure, but that something you need to do if you want to get more dudes to fight your battles. Imagine a Mallus where every village has a store of small arms and a wall. Guns will deal with any heretics or rebels, who wouldn't hvae access to such things, imagine militias ready to be called up for temporary service. Oh, a Beastherd has been gathering over there? Call out the regional militia, reinforce them with some artillery or air assets from the local PDF garrison. Oh the herd is too big? Ok get the actual PDF over here with their tanks and bigger artillery, flatten the Beastmen camp with artillery, move in and blast that Minotaur with the cannon on your tank. Drive your Hellhound down into that Skaven warren or goblin nest and flame them all, then move in with shotguns and submachine guns. Oh there's a lot more of them? Better deploy the machine guns and keep them well fed with ammo! But wait, something else is going on, well the air force is here, conduct a bombing campaign, call in the Lion Guard, the best of the PDF from their base further away. They arrive on trains or ships in ports with facilities for massive cargo vessels which make trade and distribution of resources far easier. Watch as stormtroopers with carapace armour and hotshot lasguns blast apart those daemons which seemed to have been forming, and the Daughters of Elayra, the subverted Sororitas, march in with their power armour and bolters. Something even worse is happening? Call in the Space Marines ,drop pod assault from orbital assets, Thunderhawks setting down tanks, and if necessary, a cargo lander delivering a God Machine and it's attendant Knight-Armingers. Then when it's all over finish up with a gas bombing from air and artillery and make sure any surviving xenos/heretics/mutants cough up their lungs from wherever they're hiding.

My point in this is that the Marines should be a last resort. You don't really need shock troops. You need a lot of guns and a reasonably well trained professional force to use them, backed up with a large reserve and militia. Yes, there will be problems with this, risks, issues, and so on, but you've chosen in that vote a while ago to uplift, so this is what an unlifted world looks like. There are millions of humans on Mallus, arm them. Astartes are cool but there's loads of planets, even death worlds, which get on fine without them.

I ask what your objective is because the vast majority of Mallusians are subsisdence farmers. There's this enormous untapped resource you've got which if you uplifted people you can use. Modern farming techniques mean that most people aren't farmers etc, and that farming is done with a lot of chemicals etc. Even if you went for a less efficient slash and burn type of farming, you have the whole continent of the Southlands almost iwth its jungles to do that in, so efficient land use isn't actually that big of a problem.

Now yea, if you really want, you could have a chat with the mermaids. Ok, sure, how many are there on the planet? At most, shall we say a million? There's got to be 100m normal humans.
 
Last edited:
I am for the record very interested in as you say actually uplifing and building factories and whatnot, but I am loathe to spend the lives of mere men like water when more elite forces can behead problems.
Thankfully with the mass marine project done and the ecconmy turn about to start it will become practical to start repairing and maybe even building more planes, and as you say giving the natives the stubguns and razorwire they need to stop cowring behind grail knights and and artillery lines to survive things like beastmen raids, i've never been explicitly against such.

That said relying on the natives to bring this planet to full compliance on their own seems a shaky proposition for me, as is letting our guardsmen operate normally when their replenishment rate also seems far below their losses.

I'm not against for example sending the lion guard to face the orcs but I have a vast prefference for doing so after asking the marines to make an attempt on their leadership first.
Is there anything wrong with such tactics?

Also, I feel we do need shock troops not for everyday use, but this is *mallus* dragon ogres and worse could face us literally tommorow, we could face nagash the day after that if he feels threatend enough to speed up his plans and I am constantly aware of that. Our possessions will not be truly safe even in a local sense think until we have tens of thousands of mortal troops *to spare* and at least a full chapter on the world is my thinking.

Is that not how we should be viewing the scale of danger on this world?
Edit: And that end note is excluding places like Lustria which too me reads like a Catachan in miniature which will eventually need to be dealt with I'd think.

EDIT 2:: Basically I value our marines so much becaouse see Mallus as a combination of multiple death worlds given it has whole continents that are almost untouched by humans after many thousands of years to spread to such areas due to their sheer hostility, like Naggoroth, Lustria, The Southern Wastes...The Darklands are more of a sub-continent but I figure it still counts.
 
Last edited:
There's this enormous untapped resource you've got which if you uplifted people you can use. Modern farming techniques mean that most people aren't farmers etc, and that farming is done with a lot of chemicals etc. Even if you went for a less efficient slash and burn type of farming, you have the whole continent of the Southlands almost iwth its jungles to do that in, so efficient land use isn't actually that big of a problem.
And there's this other enormously bottlenecking resource, which is actions. ;) You're entirely right, there's just been distraction after distraction.

When is it we're done cranking out all the knockoff armor for the marine surge and get those actions available, again? Next turn? I tried to check, but the quest has grown surprisingly large and I couldn't find it.

Once we (the players) manage to get around to an uplift focus instead of chasing the latest shiny/stamping out the latest fire, I imagine Amra giving a speech to the chapter, explaining it along the lines of "We normally depend on Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to restock our supplies between expeditions, and Hive Worlds and the Guard to secure vast tracts of land after conquest, and both of those are currently unavailable to us. Unless we want to put every Techmarine to making armor and shells all day, and every other Marine on patrol duty, we will have to look to the world and people of Mallus to provide us with these things."
 
Yeah agreed entirely, also I think pretty much every spare servitor we have should be sent towards mining as soon as we can manage such a retrofit because eventually, we will run out of ship material to cannibalize unless we do do so....

Which would be bad because even an unarmed imperial ship could at least be turned into a minor kinetic kill vehicle if we say got a heads up about Belakor or Nagash trying to pull some nonsense off.

Also with the right work, I could see us turning mannsleib into something like a forge world before the game concludes. if it's got the sort of resources Luna does than we could even make it a nigh self-sustaining one.. that is if we build silver and obsidian-based ''rad suits'' for our mechanicus dudes to work there. They might even like how sterile it is!

Or have everything built deep under the regolith, depends on which would be more practical for avoiding morrsliebs effects I reckon.
We should ask the dwarves about how they deal with having to mine around warpstone at some point, I'm sure they must have some valid advice that could transfer?

EDIT:

Now yea, if you really want, you could have a chat with the mermaids. Ok, sure, how many are there on the planet? At most, shall we say a million? There's got to be 100m normal humans.

I'm guessing the low estimate is from ocean predators on mallus being really really horrible rather than from actually hitting a maximum density for their tech levels which I assume could get quite high given how biologically fertile/ verdant most of this planet seems to be, I.e them having a lot of food sources?
 
Last edited:
focus on creating more weapons instead of knock-off astartes got it

Y'know that it will likely be years (admittedly fewer years) before we can do even that on a mass scale right? We first need mining infrastructure and then building the factories and then gods forbid transporting stuff around.

Whats your suggestion for what we should be doing to mitigate horrendous losses in the meantime?
 
Last edited:
Y'know that it will likely be years (admittedly fewer years) before we can do even that on a mass scale right? We first need mining infrastructure and then building the factories and then gods forbid transporting stuff around.

Whats your suggestion for what we should be doing to mitigate horrendous losses in the meantime?
Delegate and consolidate. Get the locals and allies to start pulling their own weight.

Have them drink dragon blood, experiment to make not-Vampires (eg an elixir of life deal like with the original vamps)
My face when vampires start swearing fealty to the Imperium.
 
Last edited:
Are they not pulling their weight? We had a bunch of guardsmen who joined us from mallus when we invaded the sorcerous isles from my memory and most of them seemed glad to die for that cause.

EDIT 2: Also our newly formed spy networks are made almost entirely out of natives.

EDIT: But yeah if we have a Knight paralyze a dragon we can definitely turn one into a bloodbank and absolutely get vampire converts that way.....
if the imperials ever bother learning about the local cultures properly...which I think is unlikely :-/
 
Last edited:
Are they not pulling their weight? We had a bunch of guardsmen who joined us from mallus when we invaded the sorcerous isles from my memory and most of them seemed glad to die for that cause.

EDIT 2: Also our newly formed spy networks are made almost entirely out of natives.

EDIT: But yeah if we have a Knight paralyze a dragon we can definitely turn one into a bloodbank and absolutely get vampire converts that way.....
if the imperials ever bother learning about the local cultures properly...which I think is unlikely :-/
Not big enough. The Lions did the Lion's share pun intended to take on a lot of the fighting.
 
Yes but obviously the lions died far less often so if that's how you wanted to frame it I would say things are at worst even right now, especially also with how our loyal norscans held back what turned out to be fuck huge chaos tide for a number of years.

Your willingness to condemn the chapters allies as nought but slackers I feel is very short-sighted.
 
but I am loathe to spend the lives of mere men like water when more elite forces can behead problems.
You'd make a terrible Administratum clerk lol.

I do get the impulse, but keep in mind the character of the Marines. The Lamenters are unusual because they care about normal humans, most marines dont, the Imperial Fists attack places and raid them for aspirants sometimes. You do indeed have to spend your stuff, whether thats human lives, or other resources. Yes maybe the Marines can kill the Ork leadership, but they can't be everywhere at once, and indeed they shouldn't really, you can use the PDF for that.

A Dragon Ogre, for example, isn't actually that impressive. A shaggoth yes, but not a normal one. The normal ones are apparently as strong as trolls, and I can't see them being able to resist multiple shots from an autocannon or a Leman Russ, that sort of thing, or even just a barrage of rockets from a Valkyrie.

I'm not against for example sending the lion guard to face the orcs but I have a vast prefference for doing so after asking the marines to make an attempt on their leadership first.
Is there anything wrong with such tactics?
Not necessarily. But consider allocation of resources. Yes Marines have stuff to do, but Orks aren't massively dangerous. Marines might be busy, for example underground where you can't use stuff like tanks or arty, and therefore maybe they'd be off doing the stuff the PDF can't. Marines could clear Karak Eight Peaks better than PDF could for example.

Also though consider the cost of marines vs humans. A marine is worth, lets say at least a thousand humans. Probably more tbh. If a thousand humans die killing some orks, that would probably be worth it in the Imperium's eyes. There's also stuff PDF simply couldn't face, Shaggoths, dragons, sorcerers of great power, Zone Difficultis terrain (underground, void warfare, aquatic, chaosy areas). If you 'spend' all your marines trying to save all the humans you have nothing left for any of that stuff.
Is that not how we should be viewing the scale of danger on this world?
It depends how you think about. For example, the further toward the poles you get the more dangerous it gets. Norsca is massively more hazardous than Araby for example beacuse daemons can potentially manifest without outside input. Comparably, Naggaroth is indeed dangerous, but the Elves have settled it. They don't settle it all, nor would you probably. YOu don't necessarily need to control the whole world, you need resources and people, and you need to zone off areas. Stuff like goblins, beastmen, or skaven are sort of an endemic problem, which you might not be able to ever 'solve', but you can break their strongholds so the PDF can keep them down. If, for example, you block off the World's Edge Mountains, build some forts or whatever, that sort of thing, you can keep a much better hold over the Empire because you dont' have to worry about a Waaagh coming out the Badlands and wrecking the eastern provinces. That doesn't mean you have to push out into the Darklands and try and hold it, you can just leave them for the moment.

When is it we're done cranking out all the knockoff armor for the marine surge and get those actions available, again? Next turn? I tried to check, but the quest has grown surprisingly large and I couldn't find it.
I'm going to do the results chapter, then do a timeskip, so you'll have your actions back by the end of that.
Once we (the players) manage to get around to an uplift focus instead of chasing the latest shiny/stamping out the latest fire, I imagine Amra giving a speech to the chapter, explaining it along the lines of "We normally depend on Forge Worlds and Mechanicus to restock our supplies between expeditions, and Hive Worlds and the Guard to secure vast tracts of land after conquest, and both of those are currently unavailable to us. Unless we want to put every Techmarine to making armor and shells all day, and every other Marine on patrol duty, we will have to look to the world and people of Mallus to provide us with these things."
Yea the Chapter is on a shoestring budget. Marines are indeed supplied mostly by other forces, but this is deliberate, it forces them to rely on others rather than going and doing a Horus Heresy.
I'm guessing the low estimate is from ocean predators on mallus being really really horrible rather than from actually hitting a maximum density for their tech levels which I assume could get quite high given how biologically fertile/ verdant most of this planet seems to be, I.e them having a lot of food sources?
Probably? Also though that they're not a big part of the setting. Maybe there's loads of them about in variou splaces but maybe not, we'll see. I might put some in the southlands coasts for example.

It does amuse me to consider how you'd kill apex predetors in the sea, primarily though overfishing and destroying their food source. Maybe there's a leviathan somewhere but that eats whales which in turn eat other fish or whatever, and therefore actually instead of marines you have just fleets of trawlers. Then at some point the leviathan washes up and a marine comes and punches it to get the last hit.
Y'know that it will likely be years (admittedly fewer years) before we can do even that on a mass scale right? We first need mining infrastructure and then building the factories and then gods forbid transporting stuff around.

Whats your suggestion for what we should be doing to mitigate horrendous losses in the meantime?
You do have a decent amount of infrastructure already, at least relatively. Consider that even minor mining/metal refining is still incredibly more productive than what the Mallusians are used to. The subsidies you gave to Araby were relatively trivial as part of your existing budget, but to Araby it was most wealth than the whole kingdom was worth perhaps.
if the imperials ever bother learning about the local cultures properly...which I think is unlikely :-/
They do it a bit. I agree they're not massively interested, but after the Vampire Wars are over you'll start to get Blood Dragons seeking out marines for duels, which the Marines will accept because they're into that sort of thing. Similarly in any long term fighting you'll learn stuff about the enemy culture, if only to fight them better.
Are they not pulling their weight? We had a bunch of guardsmen who joined us from mallus when we invaded the sorcerous isles from my memory and most of them seemed glad to die for that cause.
Nope they were fleet armsmen and Imperials. I assume Rx915 means the Mallusians. For example you could have employed the various forces in Araby to attack the Isles. Wouldn't have worked probably, but you get the idea. Guns aren't that difficult to use, if you start delegating and consolidating you could indeed resolve many issues. Simply transitioning the Empire for example to the use of stubbers and artillery would make them massively more resistant to Greenskins etc.

You're right in saying the Norscans have been fighting, that's one.
 
Yes but obviously the lions died far less often so if that's how you wanted to frame it I would say things are at worst even right now, especially also with how our loyal norscans held back what turned out to be fuck huge chaos tide for a number of years.

Your willingness to condemn the chapters allies as nought but slackers I feel is very short-sighted.
You're not getting the spirit of it.

The marines did a lot of the fighting and suffered irreplaceable casualties because of the threats that were there. So let's say there's a temporary peace you help the local allies or get the other Imperial factions to do their part with supplies, guard duty or offensives while the marines fix their geneseed problem.
They do it a bit. I agree they're not massively interested, but after the Vampire Wars are over you'll start to get Blood Dragons seeking out marines for duels, which the Marines will accept because they're into that sort of thing. Similarly in any long term fighting you'll learn stuff about the enemy culture, if only to fight them better.
Blood Dragon: Tonight I done on Astartes blood.

Marine: Not today mutant! I have a power sword!
 
Last edited:
No, I'm obviously not getting it, Its not as though those dudes sacrificing 1000 sons EDIT: (and hundreds of their daughters) which has saved our bacon or anything.
It's also not like the Norse dwarves offering to teach us some of their sacred runework which might save our bacon again later too:whistle:

Fair enough on the Mallusian Mortals front though generally, I actually thought they(arabyans) were doing more than they were. I have no qualms about asking the non-norscans to do more. I just hope that asking these desert dudes to start herding grox and assembling shells won't be enough of a culture shock to cause revolts.

On Marines Strategic Vs Tactical Worth.
Well part of what I am putting most of my reform efforts towards and have been like...all game long is making marines worth less than 1000 lives to create, if we can get that number down the cultural objections ought to dissapear with it.

For example, I'm willing to bet a lot of aspirant deaths once we get past the trials result from the need to do so many darn brain surguries on them, I get that apothecaries are very skilled but I imagine each time you need to open up a kids skull the risk of something going wrong vastly increases more than with other parts of the body.

One thing I'd like us to look into might be selective trepanation with a hatch for those later implants to be done in the head because, I don't think that's how marines do it and it seems like the most obvious immediate deficiency.

Also maybe deigning not implant completely defective organs(which luckily we have few of) until we can find ways to repair them maybe with ghyran, might be a wise and not too too uncontroversial idea?

One other idea we might take up that wouldn't help directly with numbers but might help with adaptability would be taking the option to try and revive our dreadnaghts, but instead of using them only in combat we could perhaps invite them for active council within the chapter like the Iron Hands do? We might be comparably young but surely they are our oldest and wisest no, they must know *some* of other times when forces they knew were pushed to the brink?



On a side note, not to rush Is it plausible the Cults Of Mallus interlude might reach us in the next two months? I am extremely curious as to how the whole Mannan interaction went down and why it went so well given I kind of expected us to be rejected by everyone other than the Sigmarites and Ulricans ....and maybe maybe the Morrities?
 
Last edited:
No I'm obviously not, Its not as though those dudes sacrificing 1000 sons saved our bacon or anything.
It's also not like the Norse dwarves offering to teach us some of their sacred runework which might save our bacon again later too:whistle:

Fair enough on the Mallusian Mortals front though generally, I actually thought they(arabyans) were doing more than they were. I have no qualms about asking the non-norscans to do more. I just hope that asking these desert dudes to start herding grox and assembling shells won't be enough of a culture shock to cause revolts.

On Marines Strategic Vs Tactical Worth.
Well part of what I am putting most of my reform efforts towards and have been like...all game long is making marines worth less than 1000 lives to create, if we can get that number down the cultural objections ought to dissapear with it.

For example, I'm willing to bet a lot of aspirant deaths once we get past the trials result from the need to do so many darn brain surguries on them, I get that apothecaries are very skilled but I imagine each time you need to open up a kids skull the risk of something going wrong vastly increases more than with other parts of the body.

One thing I'd like us to look into might be selective trepanation with a hatch for those later implants to be done in the head because, I don't think that's how marines do it and it seems like the most obvious immediate deficiency.

Also maybe deigning not implant completely defective organs(which luckily we have few of) until we can find ways to repair them maybe with ghyran, might be a wise and not too too uncontroversial idea?

One other idea we might take up that wouldn't help directly with numbers but might help with adaptability would be taking the option to try and revive our dreadnaghts, but instead of using them only in combat we could perhaps invite them for active council within the chapter like the Iron Hands do? We might be comparably young but surely they are our oldest and wisest no, they must know *some* of other times when forces they knew were pushed to the brink?



On a side note, not to rush Is it plausible the Cults Of Mallus interlude might reach us next two months? I am extremely curious as to how the whole Mannan interaction went down and why it went so well given I kind of expected us to be rejected by everyone other than the Sigmarites and Ulricans ....and maybe maybe the Morrities?
It was the Norscans that requested the help of the Lions which to be fair was a necessary act as they took their sons and daughters.

Meanwhile the dwarves survived on their own independently and thanks to the chances linked up with the Lions but didn't participate in that climactic battle against Ku'gath but I'll be fair once again that fighting daemons ain't easy even for marines.

I won't mind auxiliary forces from Norsca but I'm just satisfied for now in their recovery and fortress building.

More closer to home like Araby on the other hand and the Empire will need future auxiliary forces for reclamation and expansion efforts eventually.
 
I'm worried that you might think I'm against more auxiliary formations when I'm mostly just against *only* building such forces.
 
Back
Top