I still want to wait and get more information about the military and political situation before talking about peace, but just one turn more, this should give us enough time to get the necessary information.
See and I want to push for peace regardless because that information will unfold as the peace talks get started. We are sending someone there. The deal will be made with the events accounted for. Good or ill we want peace regardless, all thay matters is how long we have to push for it. We may as well start now.

Eventually the d10 rolls a 10.
 
They have been doing so since the action unlocked.

Edit: Well, more accurately they have been sending out feelers that they would be open to negotiating a surrender, which you have been ignoring because REE.
This is exactly the sort of thing that made late stage PoI such a grind. No other faction initiates any actions that aren't hostile and then the QM goes 'Oh they were but IC you're ignoring them because you have an immovable idiot ball. Lose even more actions for even thinking about diplomacy.'

It's not like the national soul searching at the beginning of the game didn't include maybe we shouldn't have blown off the Khan. We've attempted some form of discourse in every single conflict. We've done dozens of diplomacy outreach actions. We've consistently taken the hit to choose revanchists weakened options. What's the result?

If you'd rather be be playing Risk just say so.
 
This is exactly the sort of thing that made late stage PoI such a grind. No other faction initiates any actions that aren't hostile and then the QM goes 'Oh they were but IC you're ignoring them because you have an immovable idiot ball. Lose even more actions for even thinking about diplomacy.'

It's not like the national soul searching at the beginning of the game didn't include maybe we shouldn't have blown off the Khan. We've attempted some form of discourse in every single conflict. We've done dozens of diplomacy outreach actions. We've consistently taken the hit to choose revanchists weakened options. What's the result?

If you'd rather be be playing Risk just say so.
I think the problem here is a bit more NOMADS REEEEEE!!!!!!! than opinion on diplomacy at the moment...
 
I think the problem here is a bit more NOMADS REEEEEE!!!!!!! than opinion on diplomacy at the moment...
It would be nice to perhaps have a mechanic that works on peace outside of actions to represent the idea that the other side is pushing for terms.

Maybe a 1d10 roll at - 4 to represent us not actively enguaging the process at a high level. It would only produce a peace offer if the other side was significantly desperate.
 
Maybe we should have an admin project "restructure diplomatic corps" to tear out the worst of those best shuffled off to inner farm holdings and replacing them with people who don't hate the idea of talking to outsiders.
A diplo core could give us a passive diplomatic effort slot. We could be able to set it towards something like "Seek bombard sales." or "Encourage trade offers" or "facilitate loans" so nations are more likely to make those sorts of offers to us, ie asking for bombards, offering us trade deals both favorable and not, and asking for loans. While at war we could set them to seek peace terms with a side, giving a roll on the D10 each round automaticaly.

It would be some form of free action to reasign the diplomatic corps focus like sending the banner companies somewhere, likely with a 1 turn delay as they reorganize to discourage quick flipping.
 
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IC: The recent shake-up has prompted a wide-spread review, and that review has made it clear that lower-level staff have been turning away Black Sheep's envoys for no good reason.

We may not accept their terms, but we should at least hear what they have to say. Diplomacy--no matter how hated the enemy--is important in keeping wars from becoming worse than they have to be.

[X] Plan Fouredged

...

On second thought, I'm also a bit less worried about our patricians being willing to keep the Black Sheep in office (which is the real worry, as Thunder Plateau now expects--due to precedent for 2/3rds of the province--to elect their own leaders).

The reports of administration failure from our spies were absolutely disgusting (by Ymaryn standards). It has to be clear, even to the most out-of-touch, that the populace hate the Black Sheep rulers. Our patricians would enjoy, in theory, the reduced standards--but this is so far below the norm that it compromises the narrative of them being best for the job, as nearly anyone is capable of that level of absenteeism.

While several here have been beating the drum of half-exile or full-exile, this isn't realistically a compromise that they would offer (they can escape the country on their own if they really wanted to; what's the point of sending an envoy?). We should be open to other compromises, such as sinecures or bribing the Black Sheep in return for a quick and peaceful transition. The only lines in the sand are that:
  1. The Black Sheep not be given [long-term] special privileges (which will destabilize us, like their first offer)
  2. Our implicit promise (via precedent), to allow Thunder Plateau to elect its own leadership, must not be compromised.
A settlement that doesn't destabilize the Ymaryn is something we can work with. (And, at the very least, they're not the unrepentant traitors of Western Wall who deserted their countrymen in a time of need.)
 
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IC: The recent shake-up has prompted a wide-spread review, and that review has made it clear that lower-level staff have been turning away Black Sheep's envoys for no good reason.

We may not accept their terms, but we should at least hear what they have to say. Diplomacy--no matter how hated the enemy--is important in keeping wars from becoming worse than they have to be.

[X] Plan Fouredged

...

On second thought, I'm also a bit less worried about our patricians being willing to keep the Black Sheep in office (which is the real worry, as Thunder Plateau now expects--due to precedent for 2/3rds of the province--to elect their own leaders).

The reports of administration failure from our spies were absolutely disgusting (by Ymaryn standards). It has to be clear, even to the most out-of-touch, that the populace hate the Black Sheep rulers. Our patricians would enjoy, in theory, the reduced standards--but this is so far below the norm that it compromises the narrative of them being best for the job, as nearly anyone is capable of that level of absenteeism.

While several here have been beating the drum of half-exile or full-exile, this isn't realistically a compromise that they would offer (they can escape the country on their own if they really wanted to; what's the point of sending an envoy?). We should be open to other compromises, such as sinecures or bribing the Black Sheep in return for a quick and peaceful transition. The only lines in the sand are that:
  1. The Black Sheep not be given [long-term] special privileges (which will destabilize us, like their first offer)
  2. Our implicit promise (via precedent), to allow Thunder Plateau to elect its own leadership, must not be compromised.
A settlement that doesn't destabilize the Ymaryn is something we can work with.
The offer to throw the leader into half citizenship isn't made for his ears. You make it for the ears of his second in command who can retire after looting his superior once his future non-slavery is agreed to.

To have a war you need to convince those under you to die for you. We can maybe convince them that their leader should perhaps die for them instead.
 
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This is exactly the sort of thing that made late stage PoI such a grind. No other faction initiates any actions that aren't hostile and then the QM goes 'Oh they were but IC you're ignoring them because you have an immovable idiot ball. Lose even more actions for even thinking about diplomacy.'

It's not like the national soul searching at the beginning of the game didn't include maybe we shouldn't have blown off the Khan. We've attempted some form of discourse in every single conflict. We've done dozens of diplomacy outreach actions. We've consistently taken the hit to choose revanchists weakened options. What's the result?

If you'd rather be be playing Risk just say so.
Not only are you being needlessly salty and rude about this matter, but you are also wrong too.

We had Abyss come to us to open up diplomatic relations and buy guns.
News!

A stranger has appeared among the court of the Melek. A diplomat from Abyss. He says his master wants to seek closer ties and deeper diplomatic relations. He is also interested in buying guns.

[] Reject this visitor
[] Accept this representative of Abyss into your court
[] Accept the visitor and sell him some bombards. (-KMT Opinion, Profitable)
Pamplona came to us asking for help with their bureaucratic reforms and the action appeared from them asking us for help rather than us offering help to them.
Assist Bureacratic Reform, Pamplona: Pamplona is having increasing difficulty maintaining their heavy cavalry without giving the knights their own grazing fields. However, they have seen the direction that led the Doych, and they want to avoid it. So they have come to you seeking assistance in reforming their bureaucracy so that they may better marshal people and resources. (90%, 5 Years, +3 Pamplona Opinion, -5 for all rolls while in effect, +5 Prestige, Narrative Effects)
Ruma came to open up diplomatic relations between us and them in addition to asking for guns. In the same turn, we also had Hung come to us and diplomatic relations were established by us accepting their diplomatic outreach rather than them accepting our diplomatic outreach.
News!

The court of Melek Balthazar has received two visitors this year. First came a representative of the Ruma, who sought establish diplomatic ties and also to buy guns. Then came an emissary from a far away land. The man is wonderfully exotic, and claims to be an emissary from "The Central Empire". Certainly the gifts he carries with him are worthy of such a title.

[] Ruma: Reject
[] Ruma: Accept, no Guns
[] Ruma: Guns (-1 Vyntha Opinion, Possible -KMT Opinion, unlikely -Pamplona Opinion)

[] Empire: Reject
[] Empire: Accept, send mundane gifts
[] Empire: Accept, send cholera treatment

The Magyar came to us for diplomatic relations and guns and the generic steppe nomads came to us seeking to open up trade between our peoples.
News!

The Samraj of the Magyar has sent a diplomat to establish ties of communication and commerce with The People. This news is met with a consdierable amount of condesencion and tittering by the nobility of the People. The Magyar are nomads! These savages truly claim to be worthy of joining the court of the Melek?

Then again, it was the nomads who broke the old kingdom, some priests whisper. The old arrogance should be guarded against.

Meanwhile, the local nomads to the north and east of the Northern Core have sought contact and trade. They very carefully avoided giving offense. Which is odd.

[] [Magyar] Accept Diplomat and Sell Bombards (-1 Influence, +1 Treasury, unlikely minus other Kus opinion)
[] [Magyar] Accept Diplomat, no Bombards (-1 Influence)
[] [Magyar] Reject Diplomat (+1 Influence)

[] [Nomad] Trade (???)
[] [Nomad] Scare off (???)
And most recently, Amber Road came to us asking for a loan to finance their war against the Norsca.
News from Amber Road!

Norsca has declared war and Amber Road has come to the Melkut Ymaryn for a loan to give them a big enough war chest to have a chance of winning.

[] Give loan. (-1 Treasury, +.1 Income)
[] Do not give loan. (- Amber Road Opinion)

No, noliar has a point and I should try to do better going forward.
There is some validity to their complain in the sense we do a lot more diplomatic outreach than we recieve, but it is also wrong because have plenty of people reaching out to us over the latter half of the quest as people originally complained about the lack of people coming to us. It hasn't been very often, but we have been having people come to us seeking peaceful diplomatic deals every so often over the course of the quest.
 
That seems more like an Intrigue than a diplomatic action (we're unlikely to get the envoy to meet with the second-in-command alone).

That's aside from the main issue, however: that a strategy of undermining the leader will also make other leaders leery of negotiating with us. Diplomatic Immunity (and, in general, better-than-perhaps-deserved treatment of nations' leaders stepping down) exists to open doors and encourage negotiations.

(Which isn't to rule it out completely: there's a possible narrative of "second-in-command helped the Ymaryn, gets better treatment". Assuming that our role in that "helping out" doesn't come out.)

There's also a question of why. The leader was the one who opened up diplomacy with the Ymaryn and continues to request diplomacy: a mindset we want to encourage, rather than punish. I imagine it's not a secret that Black Sheep envoys have been trying to meet with us. Others can easily see:
  1. Black Sheep leader requests diplomacy for years
  2. We finally accept
  3. Oh, look, instant instability--by parties rewarded by the Ymaryn--to topple the Black Sheep leader
Other nations' leaders would look side-eyed at us when we next come for diplomacy.
 
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In the future, as the Ymaryn become better at diplomacy: I feel that there should be a free action for our ambassadors to make noises (that is what they're there for, after all).

What I'm less sure of is how to do this without overcomplicating the system.

For example, during the Kus famine, it could have been a free action to "Inform the Khemetri of the Ymaryn's sacred duty to provide food for the Kus", allowing them to avoid humiliation or even to respond by proposing to coordinate with us. Straightforward, in-character communications like that would be free, but more complicated communications like suggesting a coordination plan, or weird communications that aren't just an obvious extension of our diplomatic character, would cost actions.

Have the Ymaryn act as middle-men. Combine all food sources into one, raising the average price of the food a bit above "nothing", and giving all the profit to the Khem so that they make similar gains (probably a bit less) with the food prices being only "fairly generous". (The same amount of food is shipped, but the contrast in price is gone; the total bill ends up a little less but there are no obvious giveaways.)

For the Ymaryn, this would be a bit of a loss in Kus but gain in Khem (less Kus opinion gain, no pissed-off Kus traders diverting to us; but on the other hand the Khem are happier with us, and are probably a bit less likely to consider us a trade rival, since we showed consideration and offered to work with them).

And yes, that would be the Ymaryn doing the Khem a favor to retain their goodwill, while refraining from "max benefits" in Kus (opinion/income-wise). Those are the kinds of options to balance in diplomacy: do we want the +Opinion, or for Khem to face moral comeuppance, more than we want a future favor from Khem? With favor (aka their not going down to Opinion 3 and rivaling us) we could probably have hired their Navy and offered them an oversized share in this war's glory, but we wouldn't have had as much leeway in Kus and the Magyars might not have been impressed enough to approach us. There are long-term consequences either way.

In practice, this would take the form either of QM approval or QM veto of diplo write-ins (probably approval+cost setting, though with very straightforward actions assumable to be approved+free).

This sort of gameplay would encourage us to survey other countries' interests, so as to anticipate their needs and actions beforehand. Also useful would be relevant comments from our ambassadors: "The Khemetri administration has been in closed-door meetings with their trade guilds, seemingly discussing the rumors of potential famine. Their traders seem to be anticipating it with glee." (After this, the playerbase could try to use this to humiliate the Khemetri, to compromise with them, or simply to give fair warning; with all the attendant costs and benefits thereof.)

Anyway, these are just ideas, and it's difficult to tell how practical they are. But diplomatic give-and-take is part of the epic of nations, and I think this mechanic would help to set that mood.

(Tag: @Aranfan)
 
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Hmm, how the peace deal falls out will inform the war rolls, so probably a subturn first.
Adhoc vote count started by Aranfan on Apr 27, 2021 at 8:31 AM, finished with 125 posts and 26 votes.

  • [X] Plan Fouredged
    -[X] Authority: Determine Internal Factions: Receive a dossier on the relevant internal factions of a polity you have diplomatic relations with. This will allow you to support or oppose their internal factions to be more favorable to your interests.
    --[X] Ymaryn
    -[X] Influence: Seek Black Sheep's Surrender: You have been winning the war, see if the Black Sheep are willing to give more acceptable terms for their surrender. (Narrative%, 1 year)
    [X] Plan Oshha
    -[X] Authority: Determine Internal Factions: Receive a dossier on the relevant internal factions of a polity you have diplomatic relations with. This will allow you to support or oppose their internal factions to be more favorable to your interests.
    --[X] Ymaryn
    -[X] Influence: Survey Txolla Province: Txolla has been surveyed many times, but technology and the skill of surveyors is always improving. It might be possible to find something of use on the floodplains. (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
 
Turn 25, Subvote
Press for Peace, Black Sheep
Needed: N/A, Narrative

The negotiators come to you with a proposed treaty. The terms, summarized, are as follows:

The Black Sheep get:

Their lives and freedom are guaranteed.
They get to keep their livestock and money.
Their khan, chosen in the traditional manner, is recognized as a noble of the Kingdom.
They get grazing rights.

The Melkut Ymaryn get:

Undisputed control of the Thunder Mountains.
The Black Sheep swear fealty to the Melek, and will fight in their armies.


[] Accept (+13 Prestige, +1 Influence)
[] Reject (War Continues)

One Hour Moratorium
 
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@Aranfan How much feudalism is involved in the terms of that peace offer? I don't think there is any at a glance, but I want to make certain.
 
I suppose we can make the effort over time to more thoroughly integrate the Blacksheep into the fold. This isn't perfect certainly but vassals can eventually be integrated. The People have done it before.

Fuck it.

Khemetri delende est!
 
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@Aranfan How much feudalism is involved in the terms of that peace offer? I don't think there is any at a glance, but I want to make certain.

None.

Does this mean they're above our laws, or just that we won't murder them.


Is this a one-time occurence, or a perpetual thing?

1. You neither kill nor half exile them for the whole "took over a province" thing, but future crimes have no protections.
2. Perpetual.

Is it still introduction of private property or not?
No. You have personal property.
 
13 Prestige is painful. I hope peaceing out WW doesn't drop that much on us.
 
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