Compensation for property lost is probably a good negotiation tactics, but it would be unimaginably expensive. Not sure if we have the treasury for that. But we could compensate for animal, but not land.
Rather land should be owned by the Kingdom. So in the kingdom's view, it's not for sale.
We could also ask for Black Sheep folks to be educated at The Academy. This is effectively a hostage system, but it also educates.
This guy looks like he has the potential to become a recurring character, so if anyone has a cool name suggestion within the next few minutes... (you can PM me if you want).
Edit: The Black Sheep look like they're adopting Roman names, though I suppose that's not necessarily an absolute
This guy looks like he has the potential to become a recurring character, so if anyone has a cool name suggestion within the next few minutes... (you can PM me if you want).
I have him (subject to QM veto) as Thaddeus Allectus Maximilian II, with him probably dropping the infamous Maximilian part when communicating with the Ymaryn. Adopting a Ymarynized name, post-peace, is also not impossible.
(It's personal preference, but I really wouldn't be looking forward to figuring out which Maximilian we're talking about in polite conversation. Well, unless this were a comedy.)
(It's personal preference, but I really wouldn't be looking forward to figuring out which Maximilian we're talking about in polite conversation. Well, unless this were a comedy.)
At one point Rome only had like, five names in vogue. For reference, the full names of Emperors Nero, Tiberius, and Claudius was Nero Tiberius Claudius. Yes, they all had the same name.
The women meanwhile, were given numbers. The third daughter of a member of the Claudius clan was Claudia Tertia. Every, single, third daughter in the entire clan.
I imagine that that sort of thing would be anathema among the Ymaryn's bureaucracy. For that matter, that there were some absurdist plays with the premise of intentionally naming the next generation confusingly for nefarious purposes (though, given that the Ymaryn weren't really aware of not!Rome, maybe not).
Since Balthazar has 9.4 Relative Stress (and an unknown level from the unification of Txolla post-Collapse), I feel that we should probably only be taking stress-lessening actions unless the +5 roll is absolutely necessary. In the case of rooting out spies within our own lands, I don't see it as necessary.
Importantly: Balthazar also has a good track record with nomadic groups (it's the playerbase Ymaryn spirit working through him, but in-universe it is his actions); we especially don't want to lose that with the Black Sheep negotiations coming up, or cause a diplomatic reset. Under these circumstances, I strongly suggest stress-lessening actions only.
First and most importantly: they're the lender least likely to trigger the Probable -1 Influence cost. Taking out a loan from the Supreme Power is a much easier sell than taking a loan from some random country; once that initial step is taken, it's much less of a leap to taking a loan out from our ally Pamplona, then a small leap from them to some randomer.
We probably still have goodwill available from the Sacred Warding (I don't want to lean too hard into this, however. It's okay, perhaps even preferable given our limited Influence, to wait until least 1616, tough it is after the Sacred Warding finishes, as it comes after the income tick.)
The main negative would be if if we think the Hung would look at it so badly that we wouldn't want to take out a loan from them at all. (Do we think this? I don't remember.)
You have enough for greenshore and amber road right now.
If you start conquering thunder plateau before 1614 you might not have enough to provide sacred warding immediately.
We didn't have enough herds for both Thunder Plateau and Amber Road in 1609; has the situation changed (or other considerations come to light) since then?
I imagine that that sort of thing would be anathema among the Ymaryn's bureaucracy. For that matter, that there were some absurdist plays with the premise of intentionally naming the next generation confusingly for nefarious purposes (though, given that the Ymaryn weren't really aware of not!Rome, maybe not).
We didn't have enough herds for both Thunder Plateau and Amber Road in 1609; has the situation changed (or other considerations come to light) since then?
It's been long enough that the main limiter is no longer herds, but instead trained personel. You are currently able to do 3 at any given time, well, you will once the Hung peeps get back, which may take a bit.
That doesn't prove that warring periods are crucible for technological advancement either. There's the old trope that periods like WW2 advance technologies(actually true, I guess).
In general, searching for evidence to support this feeling has, at least in the modern period, failed. And instead significant evidence that supports the opposite position exists. Someone wrote a nice paper on this a few years ago, but I forget the authors and the paper title now.
This is because in the modern era technology already advances very quickly, so cutting product development and fighting a war mainly with the weapons to hand turns out to drastically impede civilian technology and even most military technology. For example, the UK probably would have gone over to jet engines in about 1941 if they hadn't been at war. The fighting delayed that to 1945 (and they weren't very good jets either). Television was set back about a decade, the same with computing. The material revolution of the proliferation of plastics was delayed by 4-6 years as wartime investment went into high explosives and scaling up more understood materials. Due to WW1 the first efforts towards large scale solar thermal power was abandoned for about 60 years.
Add to the technological delay, WW1 and WW2 led to large mal-investments. For example, the British aircraft industry was enormously scaled up in order to scour the life from the face of Germany with essentially late 1930s technology. Investments in men and machines to churn out thousands of merlin piston engines were mostly a net loss. Once peace arrived, some of that could go towards producing cheap crop dusters and sporty cars, but much of that infrastructure continued to churn out obsolete aircraft for civilian and military use until the early to mid 50s when the money to replace the war-era infrastructure was available. A similar thing happened on the British railroads, where WW2 had led to a great number of old, worn out and technologically obsolete steam engines being brought back into service and in the immediate post war years, it was decided to wring one last generation out of the old steam technology (since steam required less imports to build and sustain locomotives) resulting in a really wonderful design, but one that was also strictly less effective than a diesel or electric locomotive. It took until the 70s for the UK railways to finish the transition away from technologies that had been on their way out in the 1930s.
I've seen people put forward good arguments that the US rail system never recovered from the heavy use and the under-investment it suffered during WW2 since the inefficiency of the worn and neglected railroad gave space for over-investment into highways, trucking and passenger car use. If that argument is true, it likely applies more widely than just the US. That said, WW2 wasn't the only force pushing the US from a society of railroads to a society of highways.
Now, because modern wars retard technological advancement for a long period, and then there's a period of rapid advancement in the immediate post-war years there is an appearance that war causes rapid advancement. But outside a very few small parts of the technological suite (for example radio and aviation during WW1 and rocketry during WW2), this is an illusion.
It is less clear whether wars earlier on in history were good or bad for technology. There's a number of positive impacts back when wars were less destructive that might mean that for most of human existence (and crucially for the quest, the technology level the Ymaryn empire is now at) wars have been beneficial. There are a few reasons for this conjecture. For a start, war is a good way to encourage liquidity. In medieval India there was a culture of "boxing around the compass" whenever a new king came to power, where kings would fight all their neighbours, loot their temples (or if they lost, themselves have their temples looted) then the winners would use the loot to pay artisans to build and decorate lavish temples which themselves would soon be looted. Keeping the gold and gems circulating, rather than just accumulating, thus supporting armies and artisans and innovations to made stuff better and made armies fite better. War, especially losing a war, also tends to lead to more equality as those who get lucky during times of peace can easily pass on their luck to the next generation. But paying for a war tends to set everyone back to similar levels. This improves social cohesion and other fundamentals that allow societies to better employ technology. And war also lets different idea sets compete against each-other, though it is important to not over-estimate the importance of this - when a society loses a war it is often not clear what, if any, of the ideas the enemy adhered to were actually useful and there are other ways to compare ideas and decide which ideas are of higher quality.
But of course, pre-modern wars were also expensive and damaging things. Wealth and human lives got destroyed.
So there's still a debate going on about pre-modern war and its impacts on technology.
Question: Do we even allow the sale or buying of lands? I don't think we do. While we do have land ownership in so far land are inherited, but I don't think Ymaryn culture would allow buying and selling of parcels.
Absolutely the fuck not. Stewardship of a given plot of land, and administration of an area, is a job that is usually inherited but can be revoked if you fuck up badly enough. The one who owns the land is the king, specifically the office rather than the person holding the stylus at any given time.
[X] Plan Minimize Stress For Future Black Sheep Diplomacy
-[X] Influence & Influence: Counter Espionage
-[X] Influence: Survey Hathytta Province
-[X] Relax with Family (-Stress)
-[X] Free: Deploy Banner Companies
--[X] Deploy the Iron Flowers to the Western Wall front.
--[X] Deploy the Heaven's Hawks to the Western Wall front.
This is the same as Plan Oshha, except having Balthazar Relax with Family rather than adding the +5 roll to Counter Espionage.
...
Balthazar's stress is approaching very high levels, at 9.4 (in addition to an unknown level from the unification of Txolla post-Collapse). This matters not only because a leadership change would be chaotic mid-war, but also because of the upcoming Black Sheep negotiations.
Balthazar has had a positive track record in diplomatic dealings with nomads, including:
Opening trade with the Northwesterly nomads (which led to several positive synergies including with Hung Sacred Warding)
Accepting the Magyar ambassador (gaining Treasury and likely a perspective on how nomads can "civilize" upon settling down)
Naming the "Heaven's Hawk Banner Company", a clever move which, after the Battle of Tinvalley, spread to the many curious the mythology of the good nomad protector (This one isn't explicitly for sure; but if he didn't name it, he definitely signed off on it.)
Finally, his recent communication(canonized) with Khan Thaddeus Allectus of the Black Sheep, establishing friendly overtures on both their ends.
The first two of these actions have lost him Influence--thus acquired positive results from personal sacrifice. Such hard-earned lessons would have become a part of his identity, giving him a positive disposition toward similar future approaches. He almost certainly is more positively inclined toward nomad-like groups than the vast majority of the Ymaryn.
Finally, the friendly initial overture (now canonized) was between Khan Thaddeus Allectus and Balthazar himself. We don't want to risk a diplomatic reset when the current parties are already on good terms (or terms as good as possible under these circumstances).
In short: it's safe to say that Balthazar has a diplomatic boost in dealing with the Black Sheep. There is no guarantee that the same would be true for his successor.
(Brynn would continue the negotiations, but she wouldn't have the same historical advantages and, to be blunt, we don't really know her.)
In addition to this plan, I propose that, in general, we avoid increasing Balthazar's Stress through personal actions unless absolutely necessary. His stress level is already very high, at 9.4 + Txolla, and each turn of personal action increases it by 1. It's already somewhat questionable whether the Ymaryn can fight a two-front war without significant complications, making a peaceful unification with Thunder Plateau all the more important. We cannot risk the diplomatic reset that might come about from Balthazar taking on too much stress.
Sorry. I thought it would have been clear from how I only gave two vote options.
Absolutely the fuck not. Stewardship of a given plot of land, and administration of an area, is a job that is usually inherited but can be revoked if you fuck up badly enough. The one who owns the land is the king, specifically the office rather than the person holding the stylus at any given time.
I would imagine there is a not very often used process to leave and have someone else take over a section of land. I would imagine it comes up when someone doesn't have heirs or who's heir marries into a better farm. Then they would inform the local administrator that the land needs a new farmer and who they recomend.
But it's not a sale. It's an organized transfer of use with no money exchanged outside of perhaps bribes.
Compensation for property lost is probably a good negotiation tactics, but it would be unimaginably expensive. Not sure if we have the treasury for that. But we could compensate for animal, but not land.
The good news, at least if I understand the Ymaryn correctly, is that goods tend to be allocated along familial lines regardless, which means the discrepancy against the private property system (hence possible required compensation) isn't as large as one might expect, especially in the Plateau.
In other words, the tendency would be for everyone to keep their "property" regardless (just that, in theory--or in exceptional circumstances--it could be otherwise).
Keeping that in mind, some ideas for a transitional compromise.
First, ideas for large-scale compromises. These might not be necessary if, say, only the Black Sheep higher-ups need to be placated.
To "avoid sudden shocks in transition", there will be a temporary cap on reallocation limits. The cap will be increased every few years, and completely eliminated within (as quick a time as can be negotiated).
Ideally, allocation rates do not even come near the cap (and, in those rare circumstances where it must, they are compensated generously for the "breach of the cap"). This is so that people get used to the idea that their de facto property won't actually be taken away.
Eventually, when the cap expires, everyone is of the opinion it wasn't really needed in practice.
A temporary but long-term (say, 30-year) guarantee enforcing inviolable Ymaryn allocative norms (someone might be reassigned houses, but wouldn't be left homeless). This would be done regardless (except under exigent circumstances); the guarantee is just for reassurance.
It's rather likely, though, that only the Black Sheep higher-ups need to buy-in, so some possible compromises there:
Where possible, the Black Sheep are trained and integrated into the Ymaryn system, but where that doesn't work...
The current Black Sheep nobility are "grandfathered in" under the peace agreement, guaranteed some level of luxury, for the remainder of their lives, even if they prove inescapably unfit for their original position. (This sinecure expires upon their death and, naturally, comes with no power.)
[Normally, the Black Sheep would have to play cutthroat politics to keep their current standard of life. For this case, the position is guaranteed by the Ymaryn. In effect, this guarantees them a fallback with lower reward, but lower risk.]
Normally upon dismissal, the entire family would be replaced with a new administrator and their family (at least if I'm understanding the Ymaryn system accurately). For the "grandfathered in" Black Sheep, though, their heir would instead be elevated to their position in their place (a regent taking temporary control where appropriate), under the theory that the younger generation could be more easily taught the Ymaryn methods. In effect, the Black Sheep's progeny are given at least a strong chance of success.
Importantly, their heir would not receive the same special dispensation, and would be treated the same as any other Ymaryn noble. So, "grandfathering" is a one-off event.
Generally, if the administrator did a baddies, the whole entire family wasn't replaced and consigned to half-exile. That's the whole point of Alyx's reform, I believe.
But if they did a baddies to the land, that's probably absolutely ground for dismissal.
Looking back, I can't find the reform you're talking about. Are you referring to the "Distribute Land", or something else?
Recently in Tinshore, entire families were sent to half-exile. That was under... exceptional circumstances, though, so I don't know how normal that is (do mere failures lead to half-exile, or just reassignment to a position of less authority? One can imagine, though, that outrageous dereliction of duty would lead to half-exile. And does this half-exile usually apply to the entire family, as in the maybe-exceptional-circumstance of Tinshore?).
...
Regardless of half-exiling, my impression has been that entire families are dismissed from their position, so the Black Sheep compromise may involve giving a "second chance" to the younger generation under the theory they are more apt learners. Only one chance, though (more would give the Black Sheep special privileges over the rest of the Ymaryn).
The "grandfathered in" generation (and them alone) could be backstopped above half-exile, at some low level of luxury. Well, maybe exceptions could be made if their dereliction of the job was beyond the pale.
Adhoc vote count started by Aranfan on Apr 18, 2021 at 6:46 PM, finished with 51 posts and 9 votes.
[X] Plan Minimize Stress For Future Black Sheep Diplomacy
-[X] Influence & Influence: Counter Espionage
-[X] Influence: Survey Hathytta Province
-[X] Relax with Family (-Stress)
-[X] Free: Deploy Banner Companies
--[X] Deploy the Iron Flowers to the Western Wall front.
--[X] Deploy the Heaven's Hawks to the Western Wall front.
[X] Plan Oshha
-[X] Influence & Influence: Counter Espionage: It has become quite clear that the kingdom is lousy with spies. This needs to be fixed. (???%. ? Years. ???)
-[X] Influence: Survey Hathytta Province: Hathytta has long been the center of your mining industries. Many enterprising citizens will even try to survey and find valuable resources on their own initiative. Still, the land is rich and another survey can do no harm. (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
-[X] Personal: Attend to a particular action personally. (Provides bonus to action)
--[X] Counter Espionage: It has become quite clear that the kingdom is lousy with spies. This needs to be fixed. (???%. ? Years. ???)
-[X] Free: Deploy Banner Companies: Uncommitted Banner Companies may be deployed to a war zone of your choice.
--[X] Deploy the Iron Flowers to the Western Wall front.
--[X] Deploy the Heaven's Hawks to the Western Wall front.
[X] Plan Minimize Stress For Future Black Sheep Diplomacy
-[X] Influence & Influence: Counter Espionage
-[X] Influence: Survey Hathytta Province
-[X] Relax with Family (-Stress)
-[X] Free: Deploy Banner Companies
--[X] Deploy the Iron Flowers to the Western Wall front.
--[X] Deploy the Heaven's Hawks to the Western Wall front.
-1 Treasury, +1 Prestige
+1 Treasury
News from Western Wall:
Western Wall's onslaught continued this year. However, despite early losses, the arrival of the Mercenary Companies saw the advance stall into nothing. You still haven't recaptured territory, but at least you haven't lost any.
[+0 Influence]
News from Txolla:
The Highlanders spilled out of the mountains this year, seeking to take advantage of your distraction. The reserve deployed promptly and contained the incursion. However, it is expected it may take a few years for the Highlanders to get the point.
[+0 Influence]
News from Thunder Plateau:
The brutal uphill fighting has begun in earnest, and the Black Sheep fight back with force. Dafydd prevails, and captured some towns and villages. This was greatly assisted by agents of the kingdom opening the gates when the army arrived so that sieges ended quickly. Discipline prevailed, and there was no looting of our countrymen in the Thunder Mountains.
However, what the army has found there is appalling. The system which has kept the Ymaryn stable for thousands of years is gone. Even if you were to send every spare noble in the kingdom over, you'd still need to raise up masses of commoners in order to fill all the empty positions. Not gentry, the gentry system has also collapsed. Apparently masses of them have have fallen into such debt as the system collapsed that they had to sell their lands, which they could do as the Black Sheep had imposed Hung property relations, and this has lead to utterly insane land management patterns that will also need to be corrected.
Most horrifying of all, some people have fallen into such poverty that simply in order to avoid starvation they were forced to farm marginal lands that were not yet ready to be cultivated. As it has only been about a generation the damage is negligible, but if this were to continue it would definitely hurt the land.
[+1 Influence]
Spreading the Sacred Warding, Hung
Needed: Irrelevant, Authority
The Priests have trained the Hung holy men and bureaucrats to the best of their ability. They have demonstrated competence and ability to accurately carry out the rituals. It will take much time for the Central Empire to be fully covered by the warding, so large is it, but that will be a task for the Haungdi.
[+5 Prestige, +2 Hung Opinion]
[7/7]
Create Spy Network, Western Wall:
Needed: Irrelevant, Authority.
The Shadow King reports that the spy network is taking shape.
[2/3]
Push Kus Numerals
Needed: 2+. Rolled: 17. Success.
The programs have succeeded. Many of the numerate classes are familiar with the Kus numerals and their manipulation.
[+20% to Math Reform}
[3/3]
Determine Internal Factions, Black Sheep:
Needed: 34+. Rolled: 50. Success.
The Black Sheep Khanate is not a stable place. To understand how the various classes view their new lords you must understand that they have eliminated the Bwyll Ration and instituted private property along Hung lines.
This has lead to massive poverty and immiseration for the lower classes. The Urban and Rural Poor hate their new lords, especially the Rural Poor who blame the harm they have started to do to the land on the Black Sheep for making them so desperate. They are still Mythaldysts, for now at least, and they don't want to hurt the land by farming marginal lands, but they also don't want to starve.
The traders have done extremely well under Black Sheep administration, the new property laws allowing them to accumulate vast riches as the wealth lost by the lower classes floods upwards.
The Guilds are also happy with the Black Sheep, as they have allowed logging in excess of the Priests warnings and permitted the mining of coal. However, they are also rivals in wealth to the newly minted lords, and could possibly be swayed to support the Melek if such luminaries as Darius were to endorse him.
The Black Sheep themselves are split into two rough groupings. A belligerent group that is jealous of its new privileges, and their high status as conquerors. The other, more conciliatory group, remember how badly the People bleed them during the Collapse, and how the pox returned exactly as the priests warned when they dismantled the Sacred Warding, and favor compromising with the Melek as the Kingdom of the People are clearly powerful in both the mundane and mystical arts.
The priests are slowly worming their way back into influence and power, but they need to work carefully not to offend their temporal lords enough to be killed like those who tried to protect the warding. Already doctrines are starting to drift under these pressures.
That is the current political landscape, however there is a generational gap at play. The younger generation are much more positively disposed, or possibly just more resigned, to the Black Sheep. They do not see their state as an aberration but as a normal.
The Shadow King is set the task of rooting out the spies which have clearly infiltrated the kingdom. She gets to work, having been given many resources and wide remit.
[1/?]
Survey Hathytta Province
Needed: ???. Rolled: 37.
The surveyors have found nothing new of interest.
Personal: Relax with family.
[-stress]
-
Rumor Mill:
War in Kus!: The heir of Kurna has taken the throne and, as is apparently tradition in that land, declared war on all of his neighbors simultaneously. Thus far, he seems to be losing.
Abyss increases in riches: Abyss has apparently found a new gold mine.
New Power in the Rex Germanum: Ochrur has emerged as a notable power from the civil wars of the Doych.
