Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Mostly it would have been rebellions if they felt they were not equal members of society. Same sort of stuff that caused regular issues for the ERE. An ill timed rebellion can be a fatal distraction.
Option 3 would have worked out in the long run, but it would be very bumpy and would have had teething problems you would be ill able to afford with everything going on at the moment.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
@noncannon thanks for the info
[X] Counter any military thrusts, but do not conquer beyond the traditional Greenshore borders. (Militarily harder, Revaunchists weakened.)
[X] Counter any military thrusts, but do not conquer beyond the traditional Greenshore borders. (Militarily harder, Revaunchists weakened.)
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Counter any military thrusts, but do not conquer beyond the traditional Greenshore borders. (Militarily harder, Revaunchists weakened.)
Yes. Diplomacy. Conquering to the mountains might be easier in the short term, but diplomacy will be better for us in the long run. We just retake our rightful lands, don't take any of Styrmyr's lands and then we focus on building up good relations with Styrmyr to get a friendly neighbour and buffer-state. We give Styrmyr a friendly front and allow them to focus on other areas for expansion. We can also make it so it is more profitable for them to have friendly relations with us than to try and invade us since we are both economically and militarily powerful..
I will also note that the Old Ymaryn Empire did not try to do this as they ignore their neighbours to be isolationist. As a result, most of our neighbours decided to take a swing at us once we were in a position of weakness because we had no position relations with any of them.
And yet Tarta and Styrmyr have truce that they are both sticking to despite both of them hating each other beyond the regular rivalry that most countries have. If Styrmyr is willing to stick to a truce with Tarta, we can get them to stick to a truce with us, especially if we only reclaim our land that they have held for a generation at most and don't conquer any of their land. Given how the events of this timeline contradict the RL events that you brought up, I am more inclined to make plans based off of the former than the later. If Tarta will honour a truce with Styrmyr, Styrmyr will honour a truce with us, especially if we only take the land that has traditionally been us for thousand of years. Given that breaking a truce seems to be unusual in this world, I doubt your claims that it wouldn't be considered deeply unusual unless you can back up that claim with events from this timeline since Tarta's truce with Styrmyr is evdience that things work differently to how you claim they worked in RL.
We also don't need to obliterate Styrmyr's ability to act against us. The idea that we need to ludicrous and just plain overkill to the point it is harmful to us rather than helpful not to mention beyond our ability. We just need to make it clear that we aren't giving up Greenshore and are open to positive diplomacy relations, which will let us get friendly and peaceful relations with Styrmyr. If we try to crush Styrmyr that thoroughly, not only will we fail due to it being beyond our ability, but it will ensure that Styrmyr will come back for another round when they see us in a moment of weakness.
You also completely ignore the possibility of diplomacy beyond an arranged marriage. Just because royal marriages were a common form of diplomacy in this time period doesn't mean that it is the only method. We restrain ourselves to reasonable stuff like just retaking Greenshore and not escalating further by doing stuff like conquering Styrmyr's land or genociding them so we can rebuild and strengthen our friendly relations with Styrmyr while they lick their wounds. Taking Greenshore was an opportunistic conquest on their part and they have held it for a generation at most. If we limit ourselves to just retaking our rightful lands and give Styrmyr a way to salve their wounded pride, we can neutralise the threat they pose in a long term manner by turning them into a friendly neighbour and buffer state.
I also consider the idea Styrmyr will attack us soon as it is physically possible to be bogus. Styrmyr doesn't have a chronic backstabbing disorder and as a result, it doesn't matter if Styrmyr is in a position to get away with attacking us if we give them reasons not to so do. If we can take opportunity to get good relations with Styrmyr while they are licking their wounds and recovering from this war, Styrmyr won't suddenly decide to attack us at the first oportunity.
Styrmyr took Greenshore because they were opportunistic not because it is a deal-breaker for them and claiming that natural boundaries is the only way to reduce the danger is flat out wrong. Remember that Styrmyr has held Greenshore for arguably a generation at best while it has been ours for thousands of years, longer than Styrmyr has been a thing. We retake Greenshore as it is our land, don't take any of Styrmyr's land and then we focus on strengthening diplomacy relations with them while they lick their wounds and we liberate Thunder Plateau. We leverage our superior economic and military power to make peace more profitable than war for the Styrmyr and we can get a friendly neighbour and buffer state.
Rather than conquering foreign land, we can use diplomacy to restore our good relations (prior to the war, our relations with Styrmyr were above average) and keep Styrmyr from deciding to pick a fight with us. We can sell them bombards to use against Tarta in their next war with them, do something to help their wounded pride and make it clear that we only wanted Greenshore back. We do that and Styrmyr will just accept that their conquest of Greenshore was something that seemed good at the time, but ended up not working out. Unlike us, Styrmyr doesn't consider Greenshore to be their rightful territory and we can get them as an ally if we don't escalate beyond Greenshore and help them deal with their wounded pride from their conquest of Greenshore failing.
Tarta and yes, it is. It should also be noted that Tarta and Styrmyr currently have a truce that both of them are honouring to the point we didn't have an option to attempt Tarta into breaking it.
Yes. Diplomacy. Conquering to the mountains might be easier in the short term, but diplomacy will be better for us in the long run. We just retake our rightful lands, don't take any of Styrmyr's lands and then we focus on building up good relations with Styrmyr to get a friendly neighbour and buffer-state. We give Styrmyr a friendly front and allow them to focus on other areas for expansion. We can also make it so it is more profitable for them to have friendly relations with us than to try and invade us since we are both economically and militarily powerful..
I will also note that the Old Ymaryn Empire did not try to do this as they ignore their neighbours to be isolationist. As a result, most of our neighbours decided to take a swing at us once we were in a position of weakness because we had no position relations with any of them.
And yet Tarta and Styrmyr have truce that they are both sticking to despite both of them hating each other beyond the regular rivalry that most countries have. If Styrmyr is willing to stick to a truce with Tarta, we can get them to stick to a truce with us, especially if we only reclaim our land that they have held for a generation at most and don't conquer any of their land. Given how the events of this timeline contradict the RL events that you brought up, I am more inclined to make plans based off of the former than the later. If Tarta will honour a truce with Styrmyr, Styrmyr will honour a truce with us, especially if we only take the land that has traditionally been us for thousand of years. Given that breaking a truce seems to be unusual in this world, I doubt your claims that it wouldn't be considered deeply unusual unless you can back up that claim with events from this timeline since Tarta's truce with Styrmyr is evdience that things work differently to how you claim they worked in RL.
We also don't need to obliterate Styrmyr's ability to act against us. The idea that we need to ludicrous and just plain overkill to the point it is harmful to us rather than helpful not to mention beyond our ability. We just need to make it clear that we aren't giving up Greenshore and are open to positive diplomacy relations, which will let us get friendly and peaceful relations with Styrmyr. If we try to crush Styrmyr that thoroughly, not only will we fail due to it being beyond our ability, but it will ensure that Styrmyr will come back for another round when they see us in a moment of weakness.
You also completely ignore the possibility of diplomacy beyond an arranged marriage. Just because royal marriages were a common form of diplomacy in this time period doesn't mean that it is the only method. We restrain ourselves to reasonable stuff like just retaking Greenshore and not escalating further by doing stuff like conquering Styrmyr's land or genociding them so we can rebuild and strengthen our friendly relations with Styrmyr while they lick their wounds. Taking Greenshore was an opportunistic conquest on their part and they have held it for a generation at most. If we limit ourselves to just retaking our rightful lands and give Styrmyr a way to salve their wounded pride, we can neutralise the threat they pose in a long term manner by turning them into a friendly neighbour and buffer state.
I also consider the idea Styrmyr will attack us soon as it is physically possible to be bogus. Styrmyr doesn't have a chronic backstabbing disorder and as a result, it doesn't matter if Styrmyr is in a position to get away with attacking us if we give them reasons not to so do. If we can take opportunity to get good relations with Styrmyr while they are licking their wounds and recovering from this war, Styrmyr won't suddenly decide to attack us at the first oportunity.
Styrmyr took Greenshore because they were opportunistic not because it is a deal-breaker for them and claiming that natural boundaries is the only way to reduce the danger is flat out wrong. Remember that Styrmyr has held Greenshore for arguably a generation at best while it has been ours for thousands of years, longer than Styrmyr has been a thing. We retake Greenshore as it is our land, don't take any of Styrmyr's land and then we focus on strengthening diplomacy relations with them while they lick their wounds and we liberate Thunder Plateau. We leverage our superior economic and military power to make peace more profitable than war for the Styrmyr and we can get a friendly neighbour and buffer state.
Rather than conquering foreign land, we can use diplomacy to restore our good relations (prior to the war, our relations with Styrmyr were above average) and keep Styrmyr from deciding to pick a fight with us. We can sell them bombards to use against Tarta in their next war with them, do something to help their wounded pride and make it clear that we only wanted Greenshore back. We do that and Styrmyr will just accept that their conquest of Greenshore was something that seemed good at the time, but ended up not working out. Unlike us, Styrmyr doesn't consider Greenshore to be their rightful territory and we can get them as an ally if we don't escalate beyond Greenshore and help them deal with their wounded pride from their conquest of Greenshore failing.
The Old Ymaryn Empire did a whole bunch of conquering and attempted conquering. Hathytta was destroyed by the Ymaryns, the first city was wiped off the map by the Ymaryns, back when Trelli was an independent city state, the Ymaryns spend a good long while humiliating themselves at sea trying to subjugate the city (a war that the Telli won really, but the Ymaryns saved face by guaranteeing Freehills, which at the time hated them).
It would perhaps be better to say that the Ymaryns are OK with conquest, but only when the society enters "zerg mode" (something which convinced a few nomad heroes to accept trade with the Ymaryns, rather than risk poking them and potentially causing "zerg mode engage").
On the matter of the current vote, I for one am in favour of eventually integrating Styrmyr into the empire. Whether NOW is the time to do it is another question.
For example, digesting a conquered Styrmyr could divert precious resources from more important matters, it could lead us into a potential clash with the people on the Pannonian plain (the Tatra?) On the other hand, giving the Styrmyr the breathing room to organize a counter-attack could make this war all the longer and more expensive and geography means the Styrmyr are always going to be a thorn in the empire's side.
I am also worried that managing the revanchists is a little more complicated than "always select the option that weakens them" - powerful political factions tend to fight back against those who undermine them, and Revanchism is a debilitating flaw of the NYE.
@Aranfan just to check... Is there any risk that weakening the Revanchists again could lead to a dangerous backlash? A few updates ago, I thought I saw hints that the Revanchists were close to revolution, and am wondering if there's the potential that not steamrollering Styrmyr might lead to bad things?
fasquardon
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Conquering up to the mountains doesn't actually help us and in fact may even hurt us. Styrmyr's heir is a Martial Hero like Dragon General Dafydd, King Max or King Philip and conquering to mountains won't cripple Styrmyr's ability to attack us, just hinder it. Unless we go all out and use our Mass Levy to be basically conquer Styrmyr, it is beyond our ability to cripple their military and while we might leave them hurting, they could almost certainly recover enough to come back for another round while we are in the middle of dealing with the Black Sheep with pretty much all of our forces. Looking at the map, most of Styrmyr proper lies beyond the mountains so conquering up to the mountains might secure our borders in the short term and long term, but leaves us exposed in the medium term as we don't conquer enough to cripple Styrmyr while conquering enough Styrmyr territory to leave them angry.
For those worried about proto-nationalism by the Styrmyr, remember that Greenshore has been Ymaryn land for longer than Styrmyr has existed and been conquered by Styrmyr for a generation at most. Both the Ymaryn and the Styrmyr are going to consider Greenshore to be rightful Ymaryn land just as they will consider the land we conquer to rightful Styrmyr land. That might change with a centuroy or two of being conquered, but right now, everyone remembers those lands being Ymaryn and Styrmyr respectively. We conquer Styrmyr land as opposed to retaking our own land and we will get Styrmyr wanting their territory back and an unhappy populace waiting to revolt at the first opportunity. And given we got a big war with the Black Sheep coming up, we will be giving them that opportunity.
However, we can use diplomacy to secure our border with Styrmyr. There is more to lasting diplomacy in this era than a royal marriage and the Styrmyr don't have a chronic backstabbing disorder as seen by how they are honouring a truce with their hated rival Tarta. First, we leave ourselves to just retaking our rightful lands so Styrmyr is just left with wounded pride rather than desire to reclaim lost Styrmyr land. We can afford to help Styrmyr with their pride if it means getting on good terms. We can afford to take a prestige or financial hit right now while we can't afford a vengeful Styrmyr coming back for another round in the middle of the Liberation of Thunder Plateau. We also currently have the actions to spare on improving our relations with Styrmyr, including an Authority.
Hard power is not a good way to secure our border with Styrmyr right now because we plan to send pretty much all of our hard power to the other side of our empire for at least the better part of a decade. Soft power can be used because we got plenty of that spare right now or at least enough spare to get on friendly terms with Styrmyr.
For those worried about proto-nationalism by the Styrmyr, remember that Greenshore has been Ymaryn land for longer than Styrmyr has existed and been conquered by Styrmyr for a generation at most. Both the Ymaryn and the Styrmyr are going to consider Greenshore to be rightful Ymaryn land just as they will consider the land we conquer to rightful Styrmyr land. That might change with a centuroy or two of being conquered, but right now, everyone remembers those lands being Ymaryn and Styrmyr respectively. We conquer Styrmyr land as opposed to retaking our own land and we will get Styrmyr wanting their territory back and an unhappy populace waiting to revolt at the first opportunity. And given we got a big war with the Black Sheep coming up, we will be giving them that opportunity.
However, we can use diplomacy to secure our border with Styrmyr. There is more to lasting diplomacy in this era than a royal marriage and the Styrmyr don't have a chronic backstabbing disorder as seen by how they are honouring a truce with their hated rival Tarta. First, we leave ourselves to just retaking our rightful lands so Styrmyr is just left with wounded pride rather than desire to reclaim lost Styrmyr land. We can afford to help Styrmyr with their pride if it means getting on good terms. We can afford to take a prestige or financial hit right now while we can't afford a vengeful Styrmyr coming back for another round in the middle of the Liberation of Thunder Plateau. We also currently have the actions to spare on improving our relations with Styrmyr, including an Authority.
Hard power is not a good way to secure our border with Styrmyr right now because we plan to send pretty much all of our hard power to the other side of our empire for at least the better part of a decade. Soft power can be used because we got plenty of that spare right now or at least enough spare to get on friendly terms with Styrmyr.
However, the Styrmyr want sea access more than they want anything we can possibly offer them, so therefore your plan is invalid.
The Black Sea ports are the spine of their economy and we just ripped it out of their collective back, they are never going to be happy about that and it is completely irreplaceable short of them somehow expanding all the way to the Baltic so they'll come back to grab it again every chance they get.
The Black Sea ports are the spine of their economy and we just ripped it out of their collective back, they are never going to be happy about that and it is completely irreplaceable short of them somehow expanding all the way to the Baltic so they'll come back to grab it again every chance they get.
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- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Where is your evidence for this? Because I do not remember this being stated at all so if you want to claim this, I want a citation to back it up as not being assumed or made up.
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We destroyed them by opportunistically absorbing their population and we conquered much of their territory because they were attacking us. IIRC, they eventually collapsed. Either way, expansion eventually led to us almost fracturing because we were too big.
We got a critical hit and we destroyed Xohyr. If we didn't, the Ymaryn kingdom might have ended right there.
Trelli was also a bad idea as well. We eventually acquired Trelli through voluntary submission of Freehill.
See the patterns?
Us never getting an in depth economic report dictates that getting any such evidence is impossible, but sea access is very much important to a nation's economy, and simple geography dictates they need to go through us to get it. Being landlocked is not fun if you ever need to buy anything from abroad, which everybody does.
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From what the average person remembers of the God Fist incident, Thunder Plateau was being intransient so we obliterated them by invoking the intervention of our gods. Since we were seen as responsible for the God Fist, there's no way that wasn't seen as military conquest. We slaughtered countless people and then took control of their land.
We ethnically cleansed the Nomads then. I forgot we killed or drove off all the ones that didn't bend the knee. Recall the purpose of Stallion Pen, Western Wall, and Heaven's Hawks. They were Marches. Their purpose was to get big and beefy so they could violently fight off the nomads. They regularly expanded their territory and attacked the nomads to further secure their borders. Moving sedentary people into the lands traditionally occupied by nomads to displace them was absolutely about shaping the ethnography of the land towards us so we could keep it.
Txolla was complicated. There's a couple things here that contributed to our near destruction.
Before I get into that, however, I want to state that if we hadn't taken Txolla we would have been doomed at some point in the future. AN was very clear with us that anyone who managed to unite the Lowlands would absolutely be able to crush us. We were living on borrowed time. If the Thunder Horse or Forhuch or another such group had managed to sweep through the Lowlands and united them, we would've been doomed. Given how the Ymaryn army barely managed to fight them off with the Lowlands and all of our advantages, I don't think anyone else in the Lowlands would've been able.
The reason that Txolla was nearly indefensible for us is because we never moved to secure our borders. The Highland Kingdom, Swamp Ninjas, and Thunder Horse/Speakers all had long porous barriers with us. We couldn't adequately defend against it and we saw that when we went to war with Khemetri. The second our back was turned, one of them was there to plant a knife in it. We needed to invest more in controlling Txolla instead of just ignoring the problem and hoping it would go away. Note: this could have taken a diplomatic lean as well, but no one was ever interested in actually speaking to our neighbours.
That led into our second problem: our inability to conduct diplomacy. The second time we nearly lost the Lowlands was the result of alienating all of our neighbours by attacking Trelli unexpectedly. This also contributed to our difficulty holding the Lowlands.
The last time, when the Forhuch attacked during the Apocalypse plague was, I think, AN's attempt to either end the quest or get us to actually do something. We'd turtled for so long and did nothing that he was bored. There was this entire world he'd planned and we were going to let every moment of it pass us by. We were obsessed with never collapsing when I think AN wanted us to go through that, uniting again and actually changing Ymaryn culture.
We've already committed ourselves to taking back Western Wall who've been mainlining conquest like a line of cocaine. I don't think a limited war with an explicit purpose is going be worse than that.
Aranfan has said that this was manageable, if difficult. It's not take land once and die. It was take land and then brutally oppress its people that would be bad for us. If you take land, it must be done with extreme care and attention.
I'm actually really uncomfortable with this argument you're making. Historically, oppression has been involved in multicultural states and dealing with conquered peoples. That's obvious. To say, however, that it's oppression is inherent? That it's unavoidable? That's ethno-nationalism, reframed, but ultimately accepted. The New Ymaryn Empire is built on the multiple cultures within and religious tolerance. The fact that it's incapable of dealing with a long-term population of foreigners seems far-fetched.
Stymyr never touched Greenshore because the Ymaryn Empire was unstoppable. We are quite stoppable. Based on Prestige, no one respects us; they see us as a pushover barely better than Hellas. That doesn't really reflect our true military might, but it shows how others perceive us. Hellas attacked the Tin Tribes because they perceived us as weak. What do you think Stymyr will do once our back is fully turned? Worst case is they reach out to Western Wall for support since WW knows that would be next on our list right after the Thunder Plateau. Or Hellas, who may want Trelli back.
Stymyr has every incentive to act against us. It would give them primacy over the Western Black Sea to expand enormously and bulk up. Conquest would be good for them and transform them from a regional power to a truly great one. I mean, what's the risk? They lose a war where they lose nothing? The Ymaryn don't take land! They don't pillage! We'd have confirmed that's still true with this war. They have every reason to attack and no reason to think they're really risking anything beyond failure.
The Revanchists may not be using sophisticated arguments, but they're arguing we should eliminate threats, reclaim our lands, and rebuild our Prestige. They explicitly oppose Ymaryn pacifism. If we do the traditional Ymaryn response and it comes back to bite us, that absolutely strengthens them. If we lose lands as a result of a traditional Ymaryn decision, even temporarily, that's an even stronger argument for them. The question becomes, how likely do you think it is that leaving Stymyr be comes back to bite us? Personally, I think that answer is very likely. The Stymyr risk very little by attacking us since the Ymaryn answer to everything is White Peace; even if the war is a disaster for them, they lose little. Sure, people and nobles will die, but that's ultimately a manageable risk; noble overpopulation was actually a significant Medieval concern because there was never enough fiefdoms for everyone. Excess nobility was bad for the health of the state.
We are absolutely unstable and it is in Stymyr's interest to push over our sandcastle. We've made it clear that we are regaining the Ymaryn Empire and that heavily marginalizes them. If we collapse, they will rise to primacy over the Western Black Sea where they're now a bit player playing inconsequential games with their neighbours. Having sea access is unbelievable important. Right now, we basically have hold on their economy because of the Guilds and controlling access to the Black Sea. Sea access means access to trade which is profoundly important for any country, even today. Countries without it are quite often vastly poorer.
If they lose? Oh well. It costs nothing.
If they turn to Western Wall for support against us as both of them want to carve up our cake, I shudder at the result. Western Wall has to be nervously considering when they're next on the list: we've taken over Txolla, Free Hills, and Greenshore. They have to know we're focused on reuniting the Empire and it's either attacking them next or the Thunder Plateau. Once we go after the Thunder Plateau, they know they're after that and attack us. They should be looking for friends and Stymyr is a good one, both have common interests in curbing us. Hellas might even get in on it too if they have revanchists.
For Tarta and Stymyr, it's ambiguous who their truce favours. Between Stymyr and us? The truce is unambiguously to our benefit. The longer Stymyr leaves us to bulk up, the weaker they will be in any potential confrontation. The temptation to overturn the truce will be very strong since now is perhaps the only possible window they will have to act. The Ymaryn have been brought lower than ever due to the Great Khan and Stymyr must know that this opportunity will never come again. If they want to ever try to be a great power, now is the only chance they will ever have.
Between Stymyr, Western Wall, and Hellas, if they let us truce each one of them out and honour that truce, they know we will bulk up and become the Old Ymaryn Empire again. They will never have another chance at primacy. For Western Wall, this is an existential question and matter of survival since they know we're gunning for them. They have every reason to act against us now. There's no other chance or choice. They should be looking for allies now that we've declared clear interest in taking WW back and Stymyr would be exactly what they need. Would a truce stop them from taking advantage of a chance that will never come again? I doubt it.
I can't really get into the history of truces in this world since we have on idea what it's history is. PoC had a limited view point where the Lowlands were constantly skirmishing. Truces meant nothing there, but that's ancient history. That only possibly changed with the Games, but we threw that away. Now? We know basically nothing of the world since descriptions are so bare bones. I can't prove a negative. The real world is all that we have to understand this.
Believing we can butter up Stymyr means we think they're fools. They know what the long-term trajectory of a truce is. It means the Old Ymaryn Empire reunites and they fade back into irrelevance. They might be an official great power, but they'll always be inconsequential next to us. We would hold their economy hostage by controlling access to the sea and being able to swamp them with the Guilds. We would need to be able to offer Stymyr something so important that it stands in the face of that. What do we have like that? I honestly can't think of anything that would get a Medieval state to be willing to go back to utter dependence on a foreign power.
He's a Martial Hero? How do we know that? What is it with everyone having Martial Heroes?
I suspect that if we take the lowlands region up to the mountains, it will greatly weaken Stymyr and Tarta will jump on them as a result. We wouldn't have to do much about Stymyr because their geopolitical rival will keep them in check for us. It's to Tarta's benefit to do it. We can even encourage it like we planned in previous turns.
Given they've held Greenshore for a generation at this point, it's already set in that they consider the land theirs. The Ymaryn have always considered land they've held theirs. Stymyr may not be quite as intense about it, but I suspect that they still value land very highly. Twenty years is a long time and they're going to have nobles constantly lobbying the king to get their property back.
The thing is, we needed to go after Xohyr. They were about to conquer all of the Lowlands and anyone who united them would have been able to conquer us.
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- Location
- Minnesota
[X] Counter any military thrusts, but do not conquer beyond the traditional Greenshore borders. (Militarily harder, Revaunchists weakened.)
Why why we need to strengthen our selves
Treaties aren't worth anything when there is nothing we can offer the other person that is worth more to them than the thing we took away. Specially when we know for a fact they will have a prime opportunity to retake it soon and they just need to wait a few years.
All they have to do is break the treaty and invade while we're busy, this will let them take back Greenshore with no immediate consequences.
And if we manage to kick them out of Greenshore again? They are no worse off than they were. After all, we don't conquer people.
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You guys do know that we can't do diplomacy a lot since it could end us remember the last time we avoid those and the cenus
I have no idea what you're talking about? We're constantly engaging in diplomacy, all the damn time.
[X] Conquer to the mountains. (Easier militarily, Revaunchists strengthened.)
I'm convinced. Conquering up to the mountains is the best strategy here, there is no way we can diplomatically convince Stymyr to leave us be when we're the only thing standing between them and a port. If the Stymyr do have a military hero, we have no choice to but to strengthen our position as much as possible.
The real misstep here, in retrospect, was attacking Greenshore this early.
I'm convinced. Conquering up to the mountains is the best strategy here, there is no way we can diplomatically convince Stymyr to leave us be when we're the only thing standing between them and a port. If the Stymyr do have a military hero, we have no choice to but to strengthen our position as much as possible.
The real misstep here, in retrospect, was attacking Greenshore this early.
Hellas isn't a pushover. They are a
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Nonsense. We have done plenty of diplomacy to the point we do it pretty much every turn and there is no reason for that to change or why we can't do plenty more. I also fail to see how the census is relevant to this at all or why you mentioned it.
This is outright wrong.
We totally have a chance of diplomatically convince Styrmyr to leave us alone. In the previous turn, we had very a real chance of getting Greenshore back diplomatically and the QM has explicitly confirmed that diplomacy with Styrmyr is not a trap option and can succeed.
Then please explain what the better option was.
Yes, a 1 in 10 chance, and only possible due to a very lucky roll of 95, since otherwise we wouldn't have gotten the +1 bonus that took an 11 DC on a d10 from outright impossible to just unlikely. We can't bank on rolling another 95.
Also, even if we do convince them to sign a treaty that says they've given up on it, nothing stops them from just changing their mind when taking it becomes easy again. Medieval treaties are not famous for their reliability and longevity.
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Yes, this was before we took the land. Also, you're ignoring the fact that roll required an 11 on a d10 roll, which is a crit success on a d100 & a 10 on a d10. Those are absolutely not odds that we can rely on. Are we supposed to just hope that we double crit when we go to beg the Stymyr to not stab us in the back after we took their only port? Also, that diplo roll was before we attacked them. Do you think that the Stymyr aren't angry about that? The only way we get away with keeping Greenshore is if the Stymyr are to weak or too distracted to come after us - and Torta is currently under a truce. Diplomacy with Stymyr directly is incredibly unlikely to succeed.
Taking the land up to the natural border and beginning a slow and mutually-beneficial integration is our best long-term option.
Each option had risks. They were:
Thunder Plateau: Massively Expensive, requires Mass Levy. No foreign attacks shortly after reconquering.
Western Wall: Large undefended border in Not-Ukraine. Moderate difficulty, risk of attack due to northern overextension.
Greenshore: Easiest target. If conquered, Stymyr are going to hound us until they are either too weakened to do so or are too distracted to do so by another war, or if they are afraid the Ymaryn have gotten strong enough to zerg them.
Again, in retrospect, having a Martial hero nipping at our heels until we finish our expansion and beyond is not ideal. Western Wall -> Thunder Plateau -> Greenshore might have been more optimal. But we can't really change that now, so it's sort of pointless to talk about.
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