[] Plan Say no to Oligarchies, oh men of the west!

Representative democracy is also vulnerable to oligarchy in the long term. Power to the people!
 
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[] Plan Say no to Oligarchies, oh men of the west!

Representative democracy is also vulnerable to oligarchy in the long term. Power to the people!
Direct democracy is extremely vulnerable too, and limits our growth long-term as it does not scale that well with either population or geography.
Representative democracy is scalable with both, as representatives can just come together to form some sort of uh, let's call it a congress.

Biggest argument for direct democracy is +10 to Hero/Hero Opportunity rolls, but I am not convinced it's enough to offset administrative bottleneck.
 
Direct democracy is extremely vulnerable too, and limits our growth long-term as it does not scale that well with either population or geography.
Representative democracy is scalable with both, as representatives can just come together to form some sort of uh, let's call it a congress.

Biggest argument for direct democracy is +10 to Hero/Hero Opportunity rolls, but I am not convinced it's enough to offset administrative bottleneck.
It's fundamentally less vulnerable that indirect. No system is foolproof, but it's harder to buy a city than it is an assembly. It also has the benefit of letting our eventual non-numenorean citizens be part of the process as soon as they get here. Obviously it can't scale forever, but for now it's the system most resistant to tyranny.

Plus, if Sauron decides to come and personally fuck us, then at least we'll have heroes to tear the wool from the people's eyes.
 
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The fact that we aren't going to be vassalizing the surrounding areas means a direct democracy likely won't be too much of a problem, if we go for the powerful city-state in a diplomatic league idea I hypothesized about, instead of a democratic metropole dominating colonial lands, like Venice or Athens did. Since we won't have to spread it and worry about difficult of scale kicking in for a long time.

It's fundamentally less vulnerable that indirect. No system is foolproof, but it's harder to but a city than it is an assembly. It also has the benefit of letting our eventual non-numenorean citizens be part of the process as soon as they get here. Obviously it can't scale forever, but for now it's the system most resistant to tyranny.

That's the part I do like. It makes it easier to integrate immigrants into our city's political culture.
 
The fact that we aren't going to be vassalizing the surrounding areas means a direct democracy likely won't be too much of a problem, if we go for the powerful city-state in a diplomatic league idea I hypothesized about, instead of a democratic metropole dominating colonial lands, like Venice or Athens did. Since we won't have to spread it and worry about difficult of scale kicking in for a long time.
Yeah, at some point we'll probably end up a metropolis or something and direct democracy won't work as well, but at that point we're well into the realm of #firstworldproblems.
 
It's fundamentally less vulnerable that indirect. No system is foolproof, but it's harder to buy a city than it is an assembly. It also has the benefit of letting our eventual non-numenorean citizens be part of the process as soon as they get here. Obviously it can't scale forever, but for now it's the system most resistant to tyranny.

Plus, if Sauron decides to come and personally fuck us, then at least we'll have heroes to tear the wool from the people's eyes.
I mean, it is pretty explicitly similar to Athens and its ilk, which were hilariously politically messy to the point of repeatedly killing off their best generals for no particular reason other than a populist orator convincing populace it's a good idea, or being usurped by said generals the moment they gathered enough popular support.

It's gonna be fascinating, but also about as competent, sensible and wise as 4chan given political power.

There are functional direct democracies - Switzerland comes to mind - but what we are offered is a choice between Roman tribes, Athenian direct democracy, guild oligarchy and despotism. Of those, I think Rome-esque Senate, problematic as it is going to be, is still least evil.
The fact that we aren't going to be vassalizing the surrounding areas means a direct democracy likely won't be too much of a problem, if we go for the powerful city-state in a diplomatic league idea I hypothesized about, instead of a democratic metropole dominating colonial lands, like Venice or Athens did. Since we won't have to spread it and worry about difficult of scale kicking in for a long time.
I was honestly imagining more of late Rome-esque system, with citizenship granted to loyal of natives.
Because, well, we kind of need a powerful state to stand against Sauron, so just limiting ourselves to a city-state is likely to cause issues when big war breaks out.

Vassalization and peaceful expansion are not issues per se; issue's purely with the mentality of Numenorean Men Burden. We will still need to expand, most likely, to be able to stand against Sauron or plausible punitive expeditions of Late Numenor. So direct democracy's not a good idea, 'cause it's not going to properly function in more than a single city.
 
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Right, so I thought I'd toss my hat into the ring with a Men of the West/Hall of Speakers plan. I've argued for Men of the West earlier, and I think people are kind of sleeping on the Speakers plan: it's more or less a form of representative democracy (rather reminiscent of the Roman system, if I don't miss my mark...), and actually a relatively stable one. It allows various powerful factions in the city to have their voice (insofar as the elite/educated classes are almost universally those who will be selected as Speakers), but also (in the long and medium term, as the Hall of Speakers gains legitimacy and power) chains them to being dependent on the will of the people in general. It's a great long term move!
[] Who needs a Numenorean Man's Burden
- [] Men of the West: The Númenóreans were mortal, once, and their lives were short in the days before the Gift. Many have forgotten that, in their hubris. Once we bled and wept and crawled in the mud, and we were not noble teachers then, or mighty kings, or aloof lords, but men, who suffered as men must. So we are tall now, and our days long, and our eyes bright -- what changes this? Cut our skin, and we bleed as they bleed. You will not come to them as conquerors or masters, but as peers. This is a slim minority position among your people -- a great many of them support it. Should you pick this option, you will treat every group of Middle-Men you meet as peers and equals. The various Middle-Men groups you encounter will be granted entries in the Realms of Middle-Earth tab, and will be mechanically treated as distinct entities.
- [] Hall of Speakers: Rather than an oligarchy of the most powerful, you separate the city into great divisions. Each division shall select from among themselves a Bêthan, a speaker who will represent his people's interests to the Sea-Lord, meeting in a great convocation called the Bêthzadan, the Hall of Speakers. This form of representation first originated in the densely populated cities of the Faithful, where with populations so large it was possible for individual voices to be lost in the fray. Here, every man has a voice through his Speaker. Dealing with them would probably interfere a fair amount with your ability to get things done, and the Hall's power may grow with time. (Reduce the amount of vote options a turn to 7. Each turn, your advisors will inform you to a somewhat accurate level what the people are most interested in seeing done. Your people will be fairly disgruntled if you ignore their opinions. You will have one Speaker for every two hundred people, and for every five Speakers you have, gain a permanent population growth bonus.)
- [] Encourage Immigration From The Middle-Men: Let it be known wide and far that the doors of your city are open to any of the Men of the West who wish to dwell therin. The Middle-Men are unlearned, wild, and hold no love for Númenór, but they may still come in droves.
- [] Expand the Militia: Enlist more volunteers to the defense of the city, should you think it necessary.
- [] Watch the Mountains: Eyes in the crags, voices in the dells, a shadow on the heights. The White Mountains hold a threat that at any moment could spill over all Enedwaith. Plant a guard to watch the Pukel-Paths, and see who comes and who goes by them.
- [] The Walls of Tharbad: Tharbad has stood a thousand years, and it's walls once repelled the forces of the dark lord at the ford of the Gwathlo. Those same walls lie now in ruin, but might be raised again given time and effort. The master of Tharbad has promised great things should his walls be restored to the glory of his fathers' time, and endless friendship besides. (Sends Shapers. All building projects delayed by one turn)
--[] Uriphel
- [] Ironbark:
In the deeps of the Iron Forest dwells an ent, an old thing with old eyes. He is no foe, not yet. But he is no friend of men, you do not think. Not anymore. Break words with him, and see if the strength of oak and yew might be bent in friendship. (requires hero)
-- []
Inzilbeth
-[] Alternate: Do not visit the Middle-Men, but travel to Tharbad instead to question them on the Middle-Men's claims. (Requires Imrazor)
--[] Imrazor
- [] The Men of the White Mountains:
The wildmen who dwell amid the snow-capped peaks of the white mountains to the east are worshipers of the Dark Lord Sauron. They have given their hearts and minds to Mordor, and act as it's servants in all things. But they are not orcs or wolves, but men still, and they might be parlayed with, could you find them and break word with them. Númenór, in her glory, has turned many who toiled in shadow from the whip of their master -- but it may be no easy task. Still, you send an envoy to break words with them.
- [] Investigate the Branded Orcs: You begin to dig into the matter of where these orcs came from, and what, exactly, the strange brand on their head means.
- [] The Orc Hunter: Some men are good at hunting. Some men are very good at hunting. And others hunt a different sort of prey. Perhaps this one is ready for greater responsibility. Hero opportunities are unlocked by successful Hero Events, and may be failed. If successful, they give a new hero character to send on votes and impact the story.

Right, so some thoughts on the plan in general:
First of all (and forgive me for my arrogance), but I'm kind of shocked that more plans don't have The Orc Hunter in them -- heroes are perhaps the most valuable currency in this game (they can, after all, function as both additional actions and as bonuses) (as well as being immensely cool to read about), and here's an action that actually gives us one! In terms of action-efficiency, this absolutely tops the chart.
As for the rest, I'm guided by the thought that we remain in an early -- and thus fragile -- state. Well before lofty dreams of surviving so long we rival Gondor and Arnor -- and even before contacting various far-flung polities that simply don't matter to us right now, we should take care of two things: growth and security.
Our easiest avenue towards growth is, of course, immigration (natural population growth being fairly slow on the time-scales we're concerned with). I chose to encourage immigration from the Middle Men to both reinforce the Men of the West choice (nothing like first-hand experience for it!) and to get this into the culture of the colony 'on the ground floor', so to speak. In terms of other things (the establishment of farms, expansion of the city, etc.), I"m mostly content to wait until the public brings it up as a real issue. Another concern I have is that a growing population (which we do inevitably want!) is going to encroach on the woods, sooner rather than later. Hammering the Ironbark action in search of an accord seems wise, in this light.

Almost all the rest of the actions I've chosen are geared towards security. Mordor -- and the Eye -- is well-known for employing spies and scouts for selecting their targets. To that end, we absolutely have to keep an eye on the local servants of the Eye (the Pukel-men), and catch any trouble/invasions early. I'd also like to get a sense of their martial strength before we run into any mountain invasions (terrible things, those), and I'd doubly like to resolve the Tharbad situation before we commit to any offensive action.
Rebuilding the walls of Tharbad gains us their friendship everlasting, while simultaneously not giving them any additional offensive capabilities -- this wins us an ally and preserves operational flexibility for the factfinding Tharbad mission.
Can you send Imrazor to Ironbark instead? He's the one who met him before and is knowledgeable about ancient lore, thus more suited to do diplomacy with him.
 
I mean, it is pretty explicitly similar to Athens and its ilk, which were hilariously politically messy to the point of repeatedly killing off their best generals for no particular reason other than a populist orator convincing populace it's a good idea, or being usurped by said generals the moment they gathered enough popular support.

It's gonna be fascinating, but also about as competent, sensible and wise as 4chan given political power.

There are functional direct democracies - Switzerland comes to mind - but what we are offered is a choice between Roman tribes, Athenian direct democracy, guild oligarchy and despotism. Of those, I think Rome-esque Senate, problematic as it is going to be, is still least evil.

I was honestly imagining more of late Rome-esque system, with citizenship granted to loyal of natives.
Because, well, we kind of need a powerful state to stand against Sauron, so just limiting ourselves to a city-state is likely to cause issues when big war breaks out.

Vassalization and peaceful expansion are not issues per se; issue's purely with the mentality of Numenorean Men Burden. We will still need to expand, most likely, to be able to stand against Sauron or plausible punitive expeditions of Late Numenor. So direct democracy's not a good idea, 'cause it's not going to properly function in more than a single city.

Those are fair points. That's why I could go either way on it.

The thing with the direct democracy option is that we're still in charge. I felt that it'd be more like Syracuse with its populist backed tyranny. The leader, i.e. us, has a direct line of communication with the people so that the rich and powerful can't dictate politics, but because we have final say, we can prevent a charismatic orator from seizing power and making people act against their own interests. Such a system only lasts as long as the people support us, but we are trying to be fair and wise, and speaking to people directly means we can communicate ideas more clearly.

Edit: So that's why I don't think we'd suffer from the same problems that Athens had.
 
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Those are fair points. That's why I could go either way on it. The thing with the direct democracy option is that we're still in charge. I felt that it'd be more like Syracuse with its populist backed tyranny. The leader, i.e. us, has a direct line of communication with the people so that the rich and powerful can't dictate politics, but because we have final say, we can prevent a charismatic orator from seizing power and making people act against their own interests. Such a system only lasts as long as the people support us, but we are trying to be fair and wise, and speaking to people directly means we can communicate ideas more clearly.
By the same token none of the systems are presented are described as having any sort of executive power, they're all advisory at the start if I am not mistaken.
Issue is, each of them is mentioned as having potential to grow in power later on, which, well, makes sense. And wrestling with the crowd is likely to be a challenge - not necessarily a bigger challenge than buying off guilds or making a case to representatives, but not a lesser one either.

People's support is very fickle, besides.

I mean, either of those two is better than despotism or oligarchy - by the way, am really confused by oligarchy being only one which seems to originate not from Ancient World - but I think that, unless we hope Sauron will be defeated by someone else or there'll generally be no large scale conflict, we will have to expand and control the territory larger than a city-state with at least some efficiency. And that, more than anything, is my big issue with the direct democracy here.
 
but I think that, unless we hope Sauron will be defeated by someone else or there'll generally be no large scale conflict, we will have to expand and control the territory larger than a city-state with at least some efficiency. And that, more than anything, is my big issue with the direct democracy here.
You make an excelent point, changing my plan to Hall of Speakers.

[X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies, oh men of the west!
- [X] Men of the West
- [X] Hall of Speakers
- [X] Begin Construction Project
-- [X] Ûrîphêl
- [X] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies
- [X] Forge Arms
- [X] Expand the Militia
- [X] Send An Envoy To Rivendell
- [X] Send an Envoy to Dol Amroth
- [X] The Tyrant in the Tower
--[X] Alternate: Do not visit the Middle-Men, but travel to Tharbad instead to question them on the Middle-Men's claims. (Requires Imrazor)
- [X] The Misty Mountains
- [X] The Land of the Ringmakers
- [X] The Orc Hunter
-- [X] Inzilbeth


I think it's too soon to invite natives (I'm not gonna use Middle-Men, as that is just another form of Numenorian exceptionalism), better to let the population get used to the idea of before we act upon it so batlantly.
 
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[X] Plan Destiny
-[x] Men of the West
-[x] Makâtha
-[x] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies:
-[x] Begin Construction Project
-[x] Watch the Mountains
-[x]Ironbark
--[X] Imrazor
-[x] The War of the Blacklocks and the Longbeards
--[x] Send an envoy to Durin's Folk
---[X] Inzilbeth
-[x] The Misty Mountains
-[x] The Land of the Ringmakers
-[x] Nargil-Dûm
--[x] Uriphel
-[x]Investigate the Branded Orcs
-[x]The Orc Hunter

Made my own plan. I want to meet with the dwarves, ent man and explore ruins a bit.
 
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Making my plan officially votable:

[X] Plan Conventional Wisdom
[X] Kings of Men: The Tall Men were not given Middle-Earth. They are not rulers and conquerors and takers of tribute, but friends and teachers and guiding hands. Those who hold this stance believe that it is the duty and the forbearance of the Númenóreans to safeguard and protect the Middle-Men however possible, to raise them up and shelter them from harm until they may take their place in the sun, as the elves sheltered us in older days. This is how the Faithful carry themselves, in their cities such as Pelargir, where they marry the Middle-Men freely. This is a majority position among your people -- you can hardly help but hear them cheer for it in the streets. Should you pick this option, you will be more friendly to the Middle-Men diplomatically, seeking to form deals, educate, and peacefully vassalize.
[X] Council of the Sea-Lord: You form a representative Council drawn from the most influential factions in the city, to advise you on the people's feelings towards your actions and to serve as capable functionaries. Once the Guilds begin to burrow their tendrils into this city, as they do all cities, they will certainly like this familiar system -- it is how Númenór is governed, though at some point along the way 'influential factions' came to mean 'The Guilds, and the Guilds alone'. Dealing with them would likely interfere somewhat with your ability to get things done, and the Council's power may grow with time. (Reduce the amount of vote options a turn to 8. Each turn, your advisors will inform you to a vague level what the people are most interested in seeing done. Your people will be only slightly disgruntled if you ignore their opinions. Councilors may attempt to increase the influence of their faction through...unsavory means.)
[X] Begin Construction Project:
Ûrîphêl and the Shapers have many plans for unique buildings and expansion projects that could dot the city. Hear them out and pick one.
[X] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies: You encourage the wise and well-read Faithful to make their way from the eastern colonies to dwell in your city. Your proximity to the Elf-realms makes this easier, but being known as an open Elf-Friend would help matters further.
[X] Expand the Militia: Enlist more volunteers to the defense of the city, should you think it necessary.
[X] Forge Arms: With basic forges complete, you may begin forging blades and weapons to arm your people. With no source of iron presently, you will have to use inferior bog iron -- but a sword is better than no sword.
[X] Watch the Mountains: Eyes in the crags, voices in the dells, a shadow on the heights. The White Mountains hold a threat that at any moment could spill over all Enedwaith. Plant a guard to watch the Pukel-Paths, and see who comes and who goes by them.
[X] Send An Envoy To Lindon: Far to the north, beyond the Blue Mountains, lies the Elvish realm of Lindon, the mightiest realm between the mountains and the sea. Here rules undying Gil-Galad, the High King of whom the songs are sung and the greatest of all the elven-lords of Middle-Earth. Though their might has dwindled much since they warred with Sauron, the northern Elves are still great in strength and skill, a fading echo of the glory of Elder Days.
[X] Send an Envoy to Dol Amroth: The sister-settlements of Dol Amroth and Edhellond lie far to the southeast in the Bay of Belfalas beyond the Anduin. Populated by both men and elves, the greatest power in these lands are the Lord and Lady of Edhellond, the Elf-prince Celeborn and his wife, the Elf-Lady Galadriel. Belfalas is a rich land and a good land, packed thick with food and fair things, and establishing a relationship with it's masters might benefit your city.
The Tyrant in the Tower: The chieftain of the Middle-Men spins a tale of woe and horror. He speaks of tribes butchered and enslaved, of the lands north and south of the River Gwathlo bent in servitude to the fortress on the ford, to the Tyrant in the Tower. It is, to hear them tell it, a tyranny of centuries, one which has nearly reached it's grim conclusion. The Enedwaithrim of Brun Gledd throw themselves at your feet for aid. They, they claim, are the last of their people who breathe free air. Some among your advisors insist that the truth of this matter must be investigated, while others dismiss it as the ravings of Middle-Men -- or, worse yet, a lie of the Enemy. You must visit Brun Gledd, and learn the truth of it yourself. (Requires Imrazor)
-[X] Alternate:
Do not visit the Middle-Men, but travel to Tharbad instead to question them on the Middle-Men's claims. (Requires Imrazor)
[X] The Misty Mountains:
The Misty Mountains which straddle the spine of Eriador are some of the tallest mountains in Middle-Earth. From the great outposts of the dwarves to the deep caves of the goblin-kings, there are many secrets to be found amid the snowy peaks. You send men into the high mountains to explore and map them further. (2/6)
[X] The Land of the Ringmakers:
Eregion, to your north, was once one of the great Elvish realms until it's destruction by the Dark Lord in the War of the Elves and Sauron long ago. Here dwelt the elf-smiths whom the Enemy tricked into creating the Rings of Power, and amid the ruins of their halls and cities lie ancient artifacts from the glory days of the Elves. You send explorers and riders into this land to map it further. (2/6)


Since the Tharbad walls option would delay any constructing projects anyway, I think picking the full-on harbour option now would be unwise (especially since the Venturers are still mad at us). On the other hand, I am very much interested in other, smaller-scale construction projects - at least, to take a look at them - especially if they are going to help us attrack more colonists.
Speaking of which, sending envoys where we are sending them might convince the Faithful that we are at least Elf-Friend-adjacent, and thus a good option for immigration.
 
[X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies - opportunities edition
-[x] Men of the West
-[x] Hall of Speakers
-[x] Encourage Immigration From The Eastern Colonies:
-[x] Begin Construction Project
-[x] Forge Arms
-[x] Watch the Mountains
-[x] The War of the Blacklocks and the Longbeards
--[x] Send an envoy to Durin's Folk (requires hero)
---[x] Ûrîphêl
--[x] Send an envoy to the Blacklocks (requires hero)
---[x] Inzilbeth
-[x] The Tyrant in the Tower
--[x] Alternate: Do not visit the Middle-Men, but travel to Tharbad instead to question them on the Middle-Men's claims. (Requires Imrazor)
-[x] Investigate the Branded Orcs
-[x] Invite Survey
-[x] The Orc Hunter

Reasons:
1) I am not sure about "Kings of men / Men of the West", but later, it seems, have more advantages.
2) I do not like Oligarchies. But direct democracy has its own issues, and I am not sure how does it feet into Middle-Earth setting.
3) It's better to pay attention to our defence - so, Forge Arms, Watch the Mountains and Investigate the Branded Orcs
4) The Tyrant in the Tower to resolve this diplomatic problem.
5) The Orc Hunter. Let's do not miss new hero.
6) Invite Survey. "Every turn you don't summon a Guild inspector, they will grow angrier". Let's do not make Guild angrier.
7) Diplomacy with dwarfs. With both clans of dwarves in the same time to avoid quarrels. It seems to me that this opportunity will soon pass.

Tell me if I made some mistakes - it seems to me that it is exactly 10 options plus 2 extra options about governmant.
 
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[X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies, oh men of the west!
 
[X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies - opportunities edition

Wait branded orcs isn't that something that just celebrimbor does or is it something completely different in lore
 
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[X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies, oh men of the west!


Yeah, more or less what I would want, I think. Maybe no real reason to expand militia right this second, but better have it and not need it, so.
 
[X] Plan Say no to Oligarchies - opportunities edition

I'd prefer it if it was Kings of men, but I far prefer hall of speakers to either the guilds or mob rule
 
On the topic of immigration wouldn't it be better to encourage it from Numenor itself before it is not longer possible. Positions are polarizing and it will be harder to integrate them as time passes. In Numenor there's a surplus of population and higher grade of expertise. At the moment the colony is neutral on kings men VS faithful so propably it would be harder to do it in the future.
 
A note: it has come to my attention that Dol Amroth was not actually named Dol Amroth until the early Third Age, after a certain event earned it it's name. As such, all references to it throughout the quest have been replaced with Dor-en-Ernil, an older name for the same region. Posting this here to ward off confusion in the future.

(Expect this to happen every now and then, every stone, building, and elf in the Legendarium has at least three different names and three nicknames. I think I do a fair job of keeping up with it all, but I'm only human.)
 
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I am not sure what visiting Tharbad is going to achieve without learning about the state of the Enedwaithrim ourselves. What would Hazrabân even tell Imrazor that he didn't tell us already? He can always disregard their claims as lies or mistakes, and we would have to check them or some other source of information out anyway. So what exactly is the point behind visiting Tharbad first? Let's go to Brun Gledd first or at least visit Rivendell to perhaps find an independent source to confirm things one way or the other.
@Shador
Your plan doesn't use all the actions we have this turn. We'll only have reduced number after we choose a new form of government.
 
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