Westernesse: A Númenórean Colony Quest

[ChiefTurtle117]

The idea that we don't have access to wood is more than a little bemusing given that the Man of Gold offered us a contract for our logging rights. He seems to have been specially interested because we were settling near the Isen as well. Perhaps this was all part of sort of intricate Númenorean money laundering scheme...

If you look at the map, you can also see a large area of forest in the Enedwaith north of the Angren, so possibly @Telamon's use of "unforested" in the introductory text was a typo. However large swathes of the Enedwaith were deforested around Lond Daer during the initial wars with Sauron so it's not totally unreasonable; this map may or may not include that. The location of our colony at the mouth of the Angren is significantly southwards of Lond Daer, however.

Click to shrink...

Worst comes to worst, we could send scouts further down the river and see if there are any good locations for a logging operation or maybe even contracting some locals to do it for us.

 

[Skippy]

Worst comes to worst, we could send scouts further down the river and see if there are any good locations for a logging operation or maybe even contracting some locals to do it for us.

Click to shrink...

Looking at the the map, it actually appears that the distance from the river estuary to the forest is shortest when you're close to the sea. Given the colony is at the river mouth, the journey should be pretty direct. However if the map is in fact not accurate, you may well be right.

How much trouble the locals can potentially cause to our logging operations if they are not on our side is an open and interesting question of course.

 

[Keeper of Dreams]

[X] Plan Of Shapers, Ships and Shipping
''This seems to me is a good start also if the navy is large enough we can save people from drowning. I hope you give us the chance to save people when the island is sunk".

500 years before the fall is long so instead of worrying about anything else you people have to keep in mind that people can change in 500 years, enemies or friend, they all will change to the way you think if they keep on living in your city like brainwashing people and you have 500 years to change there mind.

"How long is the turns is it by decade/Five years per turn or one years per turn?."

 

[agumentic]

The idea that we don't have access to wood is more than a little bemusing given that the Man of Gold offered us a contract for our logging rights. He seems to have been specially interested because we were settling near the Isen as well. Perhaps this was all part of sort of intricate Númenorean money laundering scheme, or perhaps not...

If you look at the map, you can also see a large area of forest in the Enedwaith north of the Angren, so I suspect @Telamon's use of "unforested" in the introductory text was a typo. Or was referring to the smaller unforested area between the forest and the river for some reason, perhaps if it's the region more densely inhabited by the local Middle Mnen.

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't trust the map that much. It's from Amazon's TV show, and the events it relates to might well take place before War of Elves and Sauron, during creation of the Rings. And, if we look at the history of our region:
Enedwaith

The denuded forests of Enedwaith, and much of those to the north in Eriador, were finally destroyed by the War of the Elves and Sauron around S.A. 1700, during which much of what had survived the felling was burnt.

Click to shrink...

But, good point on the Men of Gold. Let's just skip the argument. @Telamon, what is the status of the forests in our chosen location?

 

[HastyGaming]

Looking at the the map, it actually appears that the distance from the river estuary to the forest is shortest when you're close to the sea. Given the colony is at the river mouth, the journey should be pretty direct. However if the map is in fact not accurate, you may well be right.

Click to shrink...

I did point out previously in the thread that the map Telamon is using appears to be from the beginning of the Second Age, before any Númenórean colonisation began. The first colony, Lond Daer nearly entirely deforested Minhiriath and Enedwaith and what little they didn't cut down to use for ships was burned by Sauron in his war with the elves in SA 1700.

@Telamon Since this is S.A 2755 then Sauron should have already burnt all the Enedwaith and Minhiriath about a thousand years ago so are we treating the map on the front page as accurate and handwaving that away or are those forests actually gone? Because that changes the calculations quite a bit.

I'm assuming the deforestation wasn't so bad in this timeline and Sauron didn't burn them down since Minalzîr wants logging rights... but it's important enough I wanted to check.

Click to shrink...

Since we don't have maps showing the progress of the Second Age it's unclear how much of the forests remain right now, which gives Telamon some leeway, but really they should be mostly/all but gone from what we know. And by the Third Age those forests are entirely gone.

Spoiler

We need Telamon to clarify, but I wouldn't be too confident in us having a lot of forests around us...

 

[Aramis]

[X] Plan Of Shapers, Ships and Shipping
[X] Angaroth, the Place of Iron Foam (Adunaic)

 

[Skippy]

I wouldn't trust the map that much. It's from Amazon's TV show, and the events it relates to might well take place before War of Elves and Sauron, during creation of the Rings. And, if we look at the history of our region:
Enedwaith


But, good point on the Men of Gold. Let's just skip the argument. @Telamon, what is the status of the forests in our chosen location?

Click to shrink...

I did point out previously in the thread that the map Telamon is using appears to be from the beginning of the Second Age, before any Númenórean colonisation began. The first colony, Lond Daer nearly entirely deforested Minhiriath and Enedwaith and what little they didn't cut down to use for ships was burned by Sauron in his war with the elves in SA 1700.

Since we don't have maps showing the progress of the Second Age it's unclear how much of the forests remain right now, which gives Telamon some leeway, but really they should be mostly/all but gone from what we know. And by the Third Age those forests are entirely gone.

Spoiler

We need Telamon to clarify, but I wouldn't be too confident in us having a lot of forests around us...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I noticed the map was from the new Amazon show last night it came up in discussion in a Discord I'm on. Honestly, it's a bit odd.

Personally I would buy there being some considerable forest still around the Isen since it's quite a far way away from Lond Daer. If you were trying to fell the forest there, you'd think you'd build a logging colony roughly where we are now, rather than slogging all the way through hostile country from Lond Daer. Obviously there's the strong hint given by the Man of Gold wanting the lumber rights. It's also possible that it's more broken intermixed forest than continuous forest, so there's some wiggle room. Although the idea of the Man of Gold actually proposing this as some sort of massive money-laundering scheme is so amusing that I almost want it to be true, now.

The massive shipbuilding booms of some of the latter Kings have not happened yet. Even if we are assuming Ar-Pharazôn was building ironclads for much of his reign, they still might need lots of wood for the framework. So whilst you'd have to creatively reinterpret (I.E., completely ignore) the sources to some extent, it would be possible to see the deforestation as a more staged process. Of course for all we know the latter Númenorean empire was getting timber from the equivalent of Africa or somewhere by then.

The whole issue of the deforestation of the Minhiriath and the Enedwaith is actually a point which gets brought up in fan discussions semi-frequently. Depending on how you look at it, it's an example of Tolkien essentially either not having a modern understanding of ecology, or choosing to ignore it for thematic reasons.

In general, unless there is continual effort applied, previously forested land has a tendency to "want" to return to forest. British moorland, for example, which was cleared from prehistoric forests during the Neolithic and was probably Tolkien's inspiration for the Minhiriath along with the felling of small forests he would have witness in his own lifetime, is only maintained by both the constant grazing of sheep and other animals and also regular burns and cutting of gorse and heather. (Although we don't do the burning quite so much anymore.) If this is not done, hardier shrubs begin to move in, and then trees will move in between the shrubs, and with a century or so you'll have an immature forest.

The issue with the Minhiriath and later Eriador is where are all the people and animals doing this? In the millennia either side of the Kingdom of Arnor and its successor states, the region is consistently depicted as "desolate" in Tolkien, as a sort of thematic byproduct of the scars of war. But there would need to be significant populations subsisting on the land and grazing their flocks there or it would return to forest within a few centuries at most. During the Kingdom of Arnor and for sometime afterwards there was much more extensive habitation, but otherwise the impression given is consistently of a largely abandoned region. In fact "Eriador" even translates to "lonely land".

I think the best solution here is to assume that much like literary sources chronicling the "fall" of the Western Roman Empire, Tolkien's narrative is heavily focused towards sedentary, urbanised civilisation, particularly the of the human cultures literate in Elvish. On that basis, one could conjecture a fairly scattered but still considerable population of pastoralist herders, who burn gorse and heather and move their flocks over the land. The ungovernable and warlike Wildmen of Minhiriath who attack Lond Daer regularly would be their kinsfolk and ancestors of these Middle Men, and the Men of Bree and its environs would be cousins who had become more sedentary, or perhaps remained sedentary around the economic spine of the old Kingdom of Arthedain.

The only issue is that this interpretation would put a rather different spin on the memorable passages in The Fellowship of the Ring where Aragorn and the hobbits are moving through the "wilderness". Far from being beyond the boundaries of human civilisation, one might expect them to wake up one morning surrounded by a flock of sheep!

 

[agumentic]

The whole issue of the deforestation of the Minhiriath and the Enedwaith is actually a point which gets brought up in fan discussions semi-frequently. Depending on how you look at it, it's an example of Tolkien essentially either not having a modern understanding of ecology, or choosing to ignore it for thematic reasons.

Click to shrink...

One explanation would be that the forests have never regrown because Sauron was the one who burned whatever remained down, and so his will still keeps them down.

 

[Skippy]

It seems unlikely that Sauron would possess that degree of power, and there is no indication of that kind of malign influence on the region in any of our sources. Possibly he could exercise this kind of influence within Mordor itself, although even then Mordor is noted to actually be quite heavily cultivated and fertile as one goes further east, indicating extensive land management. Ithilien is also noted as being exceptionally beautiful and heavily forested, and this is sitting more or less upon his doorstep.

It's noted in the Silmarillion that even amidst the very fumes of Angaband, flowers still grew, in defiance of all the desolation and horror around them. Although in Return of the King the roses of Mordor are noted as having been turned into hideous thorn bushes, so there is possibly some mixed messaging going on here. Or perhaps Sam is not as good at identifying plants from a totally different region as he thinks he is.

A simpler explanation is that Tolkien didn't really consider it and thought the idea of a desolate land of moors was extremely evocative, which it is.

 

[agumentic]

It seems unlikely that Sauron would possess that degree of power, and there is no indication of that kind of malign influence on the region in any of our sources. Possibly he could exercise this kind of influence within Mordor itself, although even then Mordor is noted to actually be quite heavily cultivated and fertile as one goes further east, indicating extensive land management. Ithilien is also noted as being exceptionally beautiful and heavily forested, and this is sitting more or less upon his doorstep.

It's noted in the Silmarillion that even amidst the very fumes of Angaband, flowers still grew, in defiance of all the desolation and horror around them. Although in Return of the King the roses of Mordor are noted as having been turned into hideous thorn bushes, so there is possibly some mixed messaging going on here. Or perhaps Sam is not as good at identifying plants from a totally different region as he thinks he is.

A simpler explanation is that Tolkien didn't really consider it and thought the idea of a desolate land of moors was extremely evocative, which it is.

Click to shrink...

My point is more that since the land of Middle-Earth is full of magic, normal ecology doesn't exactly apply, and thus it's not very hard to explain Doylist desire to have a desolate unforested land with Watsonian reasons. Like you yourself have brought up, there are examples of Sauron's power changing land, or perhaps the forests were supported by Ents/elves and did not regrow when Sauron killed them, or perhaps the land itself was sad because of all the deaths that war caused, and thus the forests never grow back as a kind of a monument. You can think out a lot of IC reasons like that.

 

[Telamon]

Spoiler: Winning Vote

[X] Plan Of Shapers, Ships and Shipping
-[X] Rómenna
--[X] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)
-[X] Forostar
--[X] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)
-[X] Andustar
--[X] Gather a great amount of colonists from here. (5 ships)
-[X] Mittalmar
--[X] Gather a few colonists from here. (1 Ship)
-[X] Hyarrostar
--[X] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)
-[X] Númenórean Iron
-[X] Ships
-[X] Shipwright
-[X] The Captain
-[X] The Lady Shaper

-[X] Târ Nîlon, the City Under The Stars

As you sail down the iron river, you gaze up at the stars above, white and gleaming in the dark blanket of heaven, a field of crystal-lit eyes gazing down upon the world. The stars here are clearer and fairer than you have ever seen, amid the lamps and torch-towers of Númenór. You know, in that moment, what your city will be named: Târ Nîlon, the City Under the Stars.

Your ships make land at the mouth of the Angren, that river which the Middle-Men call the Isen. The land here is fertile and fair, and thickly wooded -- the last such land remaining in the east of Middle-Earth. Middle-Men watch you from the trees, their dark eyes gleaming as they dart shadowlike between the treetrunks. The boldest few emerge from the treeline to peer at your vessels, but none approach any further. When any of your settlers approach, they flee, barking unintelligibly in their barbarous tongue. Your people soon learn to pay them little heed, for they do not bother the members of your expedition overmuch.

The first few weeks go exceedingly smoothly -- better, indeed, than you might have dared to dream. Your people and supplies are loaded off the ships, and you immediately set to work constructing the bones that will become your city. A Shaper, you have long decades of experience in craft and structure, and though your people are armed only with wood and axes, you have soon cleared out a great space along the River Isen where your city shall be founded. Of great assistance in these early days is the Lady Ûrîphêl. Though harsh and overbearing, under her whiplike tongue, adequate housing is constructed for most of your colonists within the month.

Perhaps the first true issue that faces you as Sea-Lord of Târ Nîlon and master of the Isen is the actual matter of settling. Some of your colonists, in particular the men hailing from Hyarrostar, wish to range out further and establish homesteads further from where the central city is springing up. The more astute of your councilors, steely-faced Shapers with flowing grey robes, point out that this will make the city harder to plan as it expands, and that it will be necessarily more difficult to offer protection to those outlying holdings, especially in this early stage of the colony.

Spoiler: Settlement

[] An Open Hand: Let the colony grow as it will, and let men plant their stakes where they wish. The resulting sprawl will, of course, make the future colony more difficult to plan and harder to protect, but offer your colonists a greater degree of freedom, which all men, even Numenoreans, value dearly. But once given, freedom is not easily taken.
[] An Ordered Land: You let it be known that no man can settle where you have not given him leave to, and that land will be parceled out and strictly divided up according to your design. Settlements and homesteads will be closer to the city, and future city/colony planning will be easier -- yet your people will be held with a tight fist, and must be held so forever after.

Your second test comes a few months after landfall, when a disagreement over a newly-claimed plot of land erupts into a brawl between several colonists. The men involved hail from different regions, and more than a few voices say that their argument, in truth, stemmed from their beliefs about the King, and the Elves. It would seem the strife of Númenór has followed you across the Belegaer. Tensions buried over weeks and months working side-by-side to tame a new land erupt once more, and your burgeoning colony is consumed by dark looks and bitter words -- that is, until you enter the picture.

You stride among your new people tall and strong, the very picture of the Sea-Kings of old, whose blood thunders in your veins. Your words are calm, pointed, and above all, filled with the wisdom that long life brings to a certain few. You tell them that this colony, this new land, cannot hope to succeed if it's people do not work together, if they are not unified. Your words are as a wind that dispels the shadow hanging over their hearts, and in but a few days, men who glared daggers at one another days earlier are digging ditches side-by-side. The strife is not forgotten, this you know -- but it is quieted, for a time.

Spoiler: Rolls

Meeting The Natives: 1d100+50 (The Tall Men) +15 (Royal-Blooded) -60 (The Sea-Tyrants) = 33, Needed 65+. Failure.

Strike The Earth: 1d100 + 30 (Shaper) + 40 (Lady Shaper) + 10 (Shaper Colony) =130, Needed 60+. Great Success.

Teething Troubles: 1d100 - 30 (Colonist Rivalries) +40 (Wise) +15 (Royal-blooded) + 10 (Initial successes) = 85, Needed 70+. Success.

Weeks and months of work slide together until the day comes, roughly five months after your first landing, when you decide that you have established something upon which you can build. Your people have settled in well to their new home. The thick forests of the Isen have been pushed back, and in their place is something which will someday tower over these lands. On a crisp autumn morning, you approach the Shapers and begin laying out in earnest the plans for the city you will build here, sketching blueprints and laying out diagrams.

What will Târ Nîlon be?

Spoiler: Of The City

[] A Fortress: An iron rock on an iron river, Târ Nîlon will be impregnable to all outside forces, built to stand as a redoubt against the power of the Enemy from this day until the end of days. Like the mighty encampment in the Hornburg to the northeast, it will be built so that a force of a few thousand might hold it for lifetimes against a horde a hundred thousand strong. The military will naturally hold more power in such a city, vital to it's existence as they are, and it will surely attract the eye of the Dark Lord and his servants -- yet let them come. Yours will be a city of soldiers, of warriors and battlers and heroes, sworn to hold this city while there is life in their veins.
[] A Foundry: The weapons must be forged somewhere. Here, blade shall be bound to hilt, beryl shaped and hammer forged. The forges of Târ Nîlon shall ring day and night in defiance of the Eye, and the armies of the Men of the West shall bear blades forged in her fires to the black slopes of Mount Doom. Your people will toil day and night in the Misty Mountains cold, a race of miners and shapers and delvers and builders, matchless among the Secondborn. The Shapers will hold supreme power here, and if this colony grows according to this design, will pour wealth unimagined into it.
[] A Haven: The Númenóreans have ever and always been sea-lords, masters of wave and tide. You tamed the ocean, and are lords of the coasts of the world. Târ Nîlon will be built in this tradition, a mighty haven, a port without equal for a thousand leagues. Mighty ships shall crowd her harbor, a thousand bristling masts on high. From here you will rule as a sea-lord in word and deed, and yours will be a people of travelers and traders, of sailors and explorers. The Venturers will, of course, flock here as they flock to every port, but even they will need seek your favor if Târ Nîlon becomes the dominant port of the western continent, and must doubtless further vie with the vulture-like Men of Gold for influence over the port.
[] A Metropolis: Târ Nîlon will be a mighty city that straddles the River Isen, and will grow and spread as it needs, developing according to your wants and desires. It will not be specialized for any one purpose, but rather allowed to develop in accordance with it's circumstances. Your people will be as they have always been: warriors and travelers and masters of earth, lords of sea and land and sword. In all the do and say, they will be always Númenóreans, the High Men who have mastered the world and shall master it forever.

With that settled, all that is left is to decide who shall direct the building and organize the construction. Many have naturally settled on you yourself, Shaper that you were, but you are a busy man indeed, with many duties and tasks to see to. It has not escaped notice that a skilled (some might say the most skilled) Lady Shaper has arrived as part of your retinue, and though you are loath to admit it, her own skills might outmatch your own. Of course, you could always delegate this to the retinue of Shapers who has followed you, freeing yourself and Ûrîphêl to do other things in the coming year.

You choose...

[] Yourself. (Cannot take any other actions personally for the next two turns, or actions which require you)

[] Ûrîphêl. (Ûrîphêl cannot take any other actions personally for the next two turns)

[] Committee. (The Shapers will take this one. May result in increased Shaper influence)

No sooner is this matter settled than Inzilbeth approaches you. The greying captain has spent the first few months of the trip helping ferry resources and directing the establishment of the colony alongside yourself. A lifelong Venturer, she has seen many a colony founded in her day, and her wealth of experience has been invaluable. The colony has thus far relied on the military retinues of yourself and Uriphel to protect it from any threat, but repurposed household guards do not a military make. As the longest-serving and highest-ranking military officer present, Inzilbeth has taken it upon herself to knock together her old crew and any willing volunteers into a barebones military force. She can make these men into anything, she tells you almost boastfully -- so what do you want them to be?

Spoiler: Of The Swords

[] Seastriders: Inzilbeth is a master of the sea and of naval combat, and so you ask her to create a force which will be primarily based upon the Isen. This first unit of yours will be a marine infantry force, manning small maneuverable boats as they sail along the great river. This mobility will allow them to reach the further parts of your dominion with ease, and to keep peace upon the black waters of the Angren and the Isenmouth, striking from the water and melting back into the river before the enemy has time to react. (Bonus to Offensive Warfare)
[] Rangers: You have need of quick men with quick feet, who can pass unseen where others cannot and bring early warning of the movements of the enemy. Lightly armored and armed with bows and shortswords, these men are more scouting force than military, but are well-trained to utilize their skills in actual battle, harassing the enemy and using their powerful Numenorean longbows, massive things that lesser men could not even draw, to strike them down from afar. (Bonus to Scouting/Exploration actions)
[] Guards: A growing colony will no doubt soon attract the attention of orcs, trolls, and worse things yet. Against such foes, even a Númenórean must be heavily armored and heavily armed. You direct Inzilbeth to form a battalion of men in shining plate, armed with mighty spears and longswords. With their limited mobility, they will likely form the core of what will become your city guard. (Bonus to City Defense)

Of all the treasures you brought over the sea from Númenór, perhaps the greatest are the mighty holds packed thick with Númenórean Iron, the famed spellwrought ore that could hold back a dragon's red ire. The mightiest building material in the Shaper's considerable arsenal, Númenórean Iron is often used to fortify buildings and reinforce structures, due to it's immense value. Those structures which are constructed fully from it are famed as the most steadfast in Middle-Earth, capable of standing ten centuries without sign of wear -- and you have enough to build just such an edifice, a construction that will be famed in later years as a marvel of elder days. The work will take years yet, but you can easily begin laying the groundwork.

Spoiler: Númenórean Wonder

[] The Tower of Iron: You order the construction of a massive tower in the center of the city, overlooking the rushing Isen. This impregnable redoubt would serve as the nerve center of your new colony, a final stronghold should worst come to worst, and stand as your city's most defining structure. A towering spire several stories tall, when complete it would be visible from leagues away, boasting the power and might of Númenór to all who set eyes upon it.
[] The Walls of The Isen: Númenórean Iron forms the greatest defenses in Middle-Earth. A mighty wall around the perimeter of the city would prove not just an impressive fortification, but also a nigh-insurmountable one. These massive walls would rise high over the city, repelling all save the most ferocious and determined attacks by land.
[] The Iron Port: You use the iron to set out and form a massive artificial port, a great ring formed to rebuke any assault by sea and effect control over the waves. Titanic chains of Númenórean Iron mean that even the fearsome sea-drakes harnessed by the Dark Lord and his servants could not easily assail this naval stronghold. A port of this scale and might would truly be the stuff of legend.
[] The City of Iron: It would not be possible, even if Orrostar was mined for a thousand lifetimes of the High Men, to build a city entirely of Númenórean Iron. However, with the skill and resources of the Shapers, you have devised that it would be possible for a small section of the city, a stretch perhaps a mile across, to be composed of just that. This Inner City would be a mark of prestige and wonder across the Númenórean world, crafted with all the splendor and art of which the Shapers are capable, indestructible by anything mortal.
[] Wait: You do not wish to use your stores of the invaluable Iron just yet. Perhaps there may be more opportunities to use it later -- or perhaps you wish to sell it, though any price you received would undoubtedly not be worth the full price of this much stone.

These are not all of the issues you face, simply the most pressing. There are many things which need seeing to in a new colony, and only so much time in the day. Some things must get left by the wayside. (Pick 3)

Spoiler: Miscellaneous

[] The Legend of the Seastrider: Inzilbeth is known among the Middle-Men as Inzilbeth Seastrider, and legends of her deeds are told from Haradwaith to Forochel. A century of legends have made her a figure of awe to your lesser cousins, and if any could approach them without scaring them, it might be she. (Requires Inzilbeth)
[] The Middle-Men: You send a delegation to the Middle-Men of this land, the Enedwaithrim, who dwell deep within their shrinking forest. You may lead this yourself, if you wish.
--[] Lead the expedition.
[] The Lands Of Iron: You send riders to explore and map the lands surrounding your new colony, following the River Angren toward the White Mountains.
[] The Misty Mountains Cold: You send riders northeast to explore the foothills of the Misty Mountains.
[] The First Haven: On the other side of the great forest of Enedwaith lies the now-barren land of Minhiriath, and the dwindling colony of Lond Daer, once the first colony of Numenor. Establishing relations with them could prove beneficial. You could send someone of importance, if you wish.
--[] Send Inzilbeth
--[] Send Ûrîphêl
--[] Go yourself.
[] The Wild Men Of The Woods: You send riders to explore towards the southern end of the White Mountains, where it is said dwell your cousins, the Druedain, the wild men of the woods who are twisted and unfair to look upon, with misshapen bodies and drooping faces. The Middle-Men call them the Pukel-Men, and fear them so deeply that they do not cross the Isen from fear of them.

QM ANNOUNCEMENT: No votes not in plan form will be accepted. There Is a twelve hour moratorium before voting can begin. No votes before this time will be accepted.

Reaction posts and Omakes are rewarded.

 

[veekie]

[] The Walls of The Isen: Númenórean Iron forms the greatest defenses in Middle-Earth. A mighty wall around the perimeter of the city would prove not just an impressive fortification, but also a nigh-insurmountable one. These massive walls would rise high over the city, repelling all save the most ferocious and determined attacks by land.

Click to shrink...

Would this crimp city expansion long term or do they enclose enough land to have farms within the walls?

 

[Xavies]

Okay, we got the Shipwright. I think we should capitalize on that with our City. Otherwise we could just have left him and got something else.

I have no idea what we should use the Numenorean Iron for yet. There is the Vanilla Choice of the Tower of Isengard. I am more in favor of the Walls or the Harbor personally.

It also depends on our Strategy. Do we want to turtle or do we want to spread?

 

[KaldorDraigo]

I think we want scouts. Better to know the lay of the land and map out the area. Scouts should be also be able to deal with anything short of a concentrated raiding force.

 

[DocMatoi]

I think we oughta aim for the whole center of trade thing. Its the lifeblood of civilizations and all that. to that end, i propose
[] Plan Doc wants Docks
-[] Ordered Land
--(to prevent conflict between errant colonists and locals; see Early US history and allll the native treaties that got violated/loopholed/broken over the knee)
-[] Haven
--(duh)
-[] Uriphel
--(this is what she does)
-[] Guards
--(something very important to keeping trade flowing? the ability to keep it secure. Might be swayed to scouts/seastriders for caravan/ship protection though)
-[] Iron Port
--(duh)
-[] Legend of the Seastrider
--(removes need for/provides bonus to -The Middle-Men, gets us local contact and maybe trade?)
-[] Misty Mountains
--(Dorf)
and then either
-[] The First Haven (Yourself)
--(it pays to have friends already interested in our trade)
or
-[] The Wild-Men
--(it pays to have friends close to home)

 

[Void Stalker]

I think we want to grab
[] Rangers: You have need of quick men with quick feet, who can pass unseen where others cannot and bring early warning of the movements of the enemy. Lightly armored and armed with bows and shortswords, these men are more scouting force than military, but are well-trained to utilize their skills in actual battle, harassing the enemy and using their powerful Numenorean longbows, massive things that lesser men could not even draw, to strike them down from afar. (Bonus to Scouting/Exploration actions)

A bonus to scouting and exploring sounds really nice. And being able to harass and skirmish, some battles can be won by ambush.

For city metropolis or foundry seem the best to me. Lots of interesting choices.

 

[Gr33n34r]

The metropolis seems to be the most balanced as it would allow us the most flexibility to respond to unforeseen happenings.

And I actually like the tower, it gives us a last redoubt, a storage space for bulk goods, precious metals and hazardous materials and it makes for a superb observation platform for both military and scientific purposes.

 

[Crimson Alchemis]

Metropolis with a massive port sounds good. Scouts a must.

 

[Ptolemy]

@Telamon A few questions:

1. How feasible would it be for us to get more Numenorean Iron?
2. How high would the wall be?
3. How large an area would the wall enclose?
4. If we had a harbour made of Numenorean Iron, how many ships would it be able to hold? How would that compare to one that was made of ordinary stone, albeit constructed with the knowledge and craft of Shapers?

 

[Telamon]

@Telamon A few questions:

1. How feasible would it be for us to get more Numenorean Iron?
2. How high would the wall be?
3. How large an area would the wall enclose?
4. If we had a harbour made of Numenorean Iron, how many ships would it be able to hold? How would that compare to one that was made of ordinary stone, albeit constructed with the knowledge and craft of Shapers?

Click to shrink...

The Shapers, ever ambitious, have proposed a wall which utilizes every square inch of Númenorean Iron you possess, a great behemoth 25 miles in length, nearly fifty feet high and thirty feet thick, built to encompass the entire head of the Angren and the city soon to sprout there. It would be a work of engineering unmatched in continental Middle-Earth, a wonder of the West.

A great harbor fashioned from the same material could hold hundreds of ships. The massive harbors at Romenna and Pelargir hold hundreds upon hundreds, and are the mightiest such in the world. The harbor you would build here would be but a pale echo of the ports of Romenna, but would still be a fair equal for that of Pelargir.

Would this crimp city expansion long term or do they enclose enough land to have farms within the walls?

Click to shrink...

Pretty much no city had farms within the walls — that would crimp city growth more than anything, as urban housing would eventually compete directly with farmland. The farms would be outside the walls, with the outlying townships and holds called on to retreat within the walls in the event of a siege.

 

[Skippy]

With the Isen making a formiddable natural line of defence for our holdings, and us having chosen to bring a famous and capable captain with us, I think the Seastriders make the most sense for our defense force.

A highly mobile force, which can allow us to project power along the river, cut at enemy lines of supply, and engage in an active defence to neutralise attacks before they can reach us. If we combined this with the Iron Walls, then we have a pretty damn good bit of insurance if anything does manage to get across the river.

What will Târ Nîlon be?

Click to shrink...

If it would be alright, would you mind going through our options here in a little more detail, specifically how they constrain our future options?

If we pick the Foundry, does this preclude us becoming a great trading centre? If we pick the Haven, does this mean we are unlikely to be able to become highly developed in manufacturing?

Vice-versa, if we pick the Metropolis, will this hamper our previous ambitions to become the greatest hub for both crafts and trade north of the White Mountains?

 

[veekie]

Pretty much no city had farms within the walls — that would crimp city growth more than anything, as urban housing would eventually compete directly with farmland. The farms would be outside the walls, with the outlying townships and holds called on to retreat within the walls in the event of a siege.

Click to shrink...

Was thinking about the chinese style city forts which had small woods and farms between the outer and inner walls for extended provisioning in the event of siege.

 

[Telamon]

With the Isen making a formiddable natural line of defence for our holdings, and us having chosen to bring a famous and capable captain with us, I think the Seastriders make the most sense for our defense force.

A highly mobile force, which can allow us to project power along the river, cut at enemy lines of supply, and engage in an active defence to neutralise attacks before they can reach us. If we combined this with the Iron Walls, then we have a pretty damn good bit of insurance if anything does manage to get across the river.



If it would be alright, would you mind going through our options here in a little more detail, specifically how they constrain our future options?

If we pick the Foundry, does this preclude us becoming a great trading centre? If we pick the Haven, does this mean we are unlikely to be able to become highly developed in manufacturing?

Vice-versa, if we pick the Metropolis, will this hamper our previous ambitions to become the greatest hub for both crafts and trade north of the White Mountains?

Click to shrink...

It doesn't absolutely preclude you from doing things in the future, but it makes it more likely that the city will develop in the way you designed. A city built with tight streets and an eye for defensive positions and emplacements is not going to be as great a trading city as a city built for massive ports and great markets. And building great foundries and iron works will be rather redundant if you don't actually, y'know, use them.

Metropolis is essentially 'freeform'. The city will develop according to its needs and future desires, not a strictly laid down plan and vision. It's essentially a 'jack of all trades' option. It would mean that if you want to invest a lot into mining and smithing later, you'll have to find space to do that that may now be occupied by something else, and that you may never be able to devote as much to it as a city purpose-built for such.

 

[Skippy]

Was thinking about the chinese style city forts which had small woods and farms between the outer and inner walls for extended provisioning in the event of siege.

Click to shrink...

Would you be able to provide some links or sources for that? That sounds genuinely fascinating, as it's the first I've heard of fortresses or cities having farmland within their walls. It'd be really exciting to take a look!

It seems very Attack on Titan, to be honest, and the land area required would be massive, which makes me a bit dubious. But if any pre-modern polity would attempt such a thing, it would be China.

It doesn't absolutely preclude you from doing things in the future, but it makes it more likely that the city will develop in the way you designed. A city built with tight streets and an eye for defensive positions and emplacements is not going to be as great a trading city as a city built for massive ports and great markets. And building great foundries and iron works will be rather redundant if you don't actually, y'know, use them.

Metropolis is essentially 'freeform'. The city will develop according to its needs and future desires, not a strictly laid down plan and vision. It's essentially a 'jack of all trades' option. It would mean that if you want to invest a lot into mining and smithing later, you'll have to find space to do that that may now be occupied by something else, and that you may never be able to devote as much to it as a city purpose-built for such.

Click to shrink...

Part of my hesitation here was that I know a lot of people voted the way we did in the earlier options because we wanted to make a giant foundry-city, which is awesome, but it feels like we may be digging ourselves a bit of a hole if we invest our whole economy into manufacturing and then can't sell our goods to anyone.

Essentially this is just me trying to get a sense of how much leeway we've got here. If we pick the Foundry, for example, does our city still have a harbour that can handle trade in any volume?

Also, from what the options suggest, there's also quite a strong founder effect on our culture, if we go for one of the more specialised starting options?

 

[Telamon]

Voting is open.