MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
Vita: *Looks over the Imperium's Budget* Best i can do is to crash the economy now rather than latter, you get only 1000 year long dark age trough.
Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
- Location
- colombia
Lmao,yeah that sounds like bobby
They would slap a purity seal on vita and call her a very advanced machine spirit and call it a day
Ahhh
The foundation gamble,bold
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
Anyhow, Do we want to earmark Immaterium Understanding to this turn, as it's likely the last we're spending in this system for a while?
It's likely the kind of breakthrough that will cause a lot of tech to come falling loose from the tech tree.
It's likely the kind of breakthrough that will cause a lot of tech to come falling loose from the tech tree.
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- Location
- Near Freiburg in South-West Germany
I would really like to put a Warp lab into a ship to take with us (same as with the high energy physics lab), in which case we would be more flexible in research that requires one, including any unlocked by IU. But if we don't build such a ship we really should take advantage of the stationary Warp research lab and do IU before leaving even if we can't do any follow ups which also require that kind of lab while underway without bring the lab with us.
My tentative shortlist is Immaterium Understanding, Velkar OMC, Heavy Cruiser MS, Hanger Cramming, Variety is the Spice of Life and (finally) finishing off Faith. Not sure whether we'll be taking a 2x or 3x Research action - there may be a need for an order or build action, there may not - but I'd certainly like to grab those techs before we leave.
Shure being a psyker is an upgrade if you look away from the many, many disadvantages that comes with it. Use your powers and risk the Perils of the Warp, ranging from simply not manifesting any powers if your lucky, to madness and mutation, to demonic possession or becoming a warp rift that plunges a world into madness. And lets not forget the many, many examples of rampat power abuse from psykers that run wild.
- Location
- Near Freiburg in South-West Germany
The current fleet composition is a bit wonky and needs some filling out, so we probably need to research some ship types, too.
Current fleet (existing and build this turn):
2 Torch Dive Cruisers (2x30 = 60 CP)
8 Ember Mk2 Novacannon Frigates (8x15 = 120 CP)
3 Fab manufacturing Cruiser (6400 BP, 30 CP, 8 ship construction slots) (produces 414 bp) (total cost: 19,200 BP, 90 CP, 24 ship construction slots) (total production: 1242 bp)
1 Searchlight-class Sensor Frigate (3075 BP, 15 CP, 2 ship construction slots) (total cost: 3075 BP, 15 CP, 2 ship construction slots)
2 Candle Mk2 Destroyer (1650 void BP, 8 CP, 1 ship construction slot) (total cost: 3300 void BP, 16 CP, 2 ship construction slot)
1 Candle Mk2 Destroyer half finished
I would like a second Searchlight so losing one ship doesn't cripple our sensors, and we can send one out to explore a system while Vita and the main fleet look at something interesting.
8 Novacannons are quite a lot long range AOE firepower (and with different ammunition types also effective against single targets), but mid and short ranged capabilities are a bit lacking, IMO. Just because we would prefer to just blow up anything as far away as possible doesn't always mean it will be an option. Some additional close range brawlers would probably be a good idea, same with screening elements.
A way to cripple an enemy ship or station without destroying it would be nice, and a way to support ground troops which isn't full on orbital bombardment with capital weapons. A carrier ship (or two) with bombers and fighters would do that nicely.
We should also decide if we want to bring more build capacity (and maybe even a mobile shipyard) and adapt and expand the fleet as we go, or if we try to be prepared for as many eventualities as we can with as many combat focused ships as we can build, but can't adapt or use new techs while underway because we can't easily build ships when not in Denva.
Current fleet (existing and build this turn):
2 Torch Dive Cruisers (2x30 = 60 CP)
8 Ember Mk2 Novacannon Frigates (8x15 = 120 CP)
3 Fab manufacturing Cruiser (6400 BP, 30 CP, 8 ship construction slots) (produces 414 bp) (total cost: 19,200 BP, 90 CP, 24 ship construction slots) (total production: 1242 bp)
1 Searchlight-class Sensor Frigate (3075 BP, 15 CP, 2 ship construction slots) (total cost: 3075 BP, 15 CP, 2 ship construction slots)
2 Candle Mk2 Destroyer (1650 void BP, 8 CP, 1 ship construction slot) (total cost: 3300 void BP, 16 CP, 2 ship construction slot)
1 Candle Mk2 Destroyer half finished
I would like a second Searchlight so losing one ship doesn't cripple our sensors, and we can send one out to explore a system while Vita and the main fleet look at something interesting.
8 Novacannons are quite a lot long range AOE firepower (and with different ammunition types also effective against single targets), but mid and short ranged capabilities are a bit lacking, IMO. Just because we would prefer to just blow up anything as far away as possible doesn't always mean it will be an option. Some additional close range brawlers would probably be a good idea, same with screening elements.
A way to cripple an enemy ship or station without destroying it would be nice, and a way to support ground troops which isn't full on orbital bombardment with capital weapons. A carrier ship (or two) with bombers and fighters would do that nicely.
We should also decide if we want to bring more build capacity (and maybe even a mobile shipyard) and adapt and expand the fleet as we go, or if we try to be prepared for as many eventualities as we can with as many combat focused ships as we can build, but can't adapt or use new techs while underway because we can't easily build ships when not in Denva.
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It's worth noting that AFAIK no ships have yet been actually designed or built that make use of the new plasma and melta shells, unless Denva seriously prioritized that.
I designed a light cruiser with both for our own use and to give Denva, but it didn't make it into the winning plan.
- Location
- Norway
Is a mobile shipyard something we could make? I don't see it in the hull mods, and it seems like the sort of thing you would need to be battleship/super-battleship size to have.
For our fleet I don't really know what our doctrine is, and how many screening elements are sensible to have per capital ship. Gut feeling says 4 candles per cruiser/capital ship, but that is pure gut feeling. Getting the tech and the time to make a decent carrier ship before we leave doesn't seem realistic imo. Prefer using what we already have, so novacannons dealing with most things, cruisers to escort our flagship, and candles hovering around the escort/flagship to screen the bigger ships. Getting another searchlight seems like a good idea.
For our fleet I don't really know what our doctrine is, and how many screening elements are sensible to have per capital ship. Gut feeling says 4 candles per cruiser/capital ship, but that is pure gut feeling. Getting the tech and the time to make a decent carrier ship before we leave doesn't seem realistic imo. Prefer using what we already have, so novacannons dealing with most things, cruisers to escort our flagship, and candles hovering around the escort/flagship to screen the bigger ships. Getting another searchlight seems like a good idea.
I'm not saying it's without dangers. But it is an evolution of humanity. It is the next stage of things. And it would be far less dangerous if The Eldar hadn't birthed Slaanesh, and The War in Heaven hadn't happened. I mean, The Eldar lived as a fully psychic species for millions of years! Clearly it's both possible, and profitable- as long as The Warp isn't actively hostile to Mortal Life. So yes, being a Psyker is an upgrade- using computers as a parallel example, someone just released a self-perpetuating malware into the entirety of the internet (The Warp) that targets computers joining it(Mortal minds) and makes them glitch and experience errors or even blue-screen (perils of The Warp).
That isn't an inherent fault of Psykers by nature, it's damage to the baseline fabric of the alternate reality from which they can draw godlike powers.
Fix The Warp (remove the gods) and things would become steadily better for Psykers over time. Heck, we've already done some of that by creating and sharing our shielding Tech. That alone severely reduces the problems with being a low-level Psyker significantly. And we're already wanting to work on more Tech that further reduces the issues caused by drawing on a damaged and darkened Warp.
I'm not sure really what point you're trying to make, given the realities of the situation- both the context of The Warp and its Perils, and our own Technological solutions that are already reducing those issues significantly.
As for power abuse? That's a societal thing. I mean, The Eldar has an entirely Psychic society, and they didn't have those issues to a large enough degree to cause noticeable damage to their society. So humanity can- similarly- develop a society that would also work as more and more people are born psychic. Just depends on how long that takes- longer without training, without a good society, with psychic genetics being removed from the gene pool… so.
Power abuse isn't going to be an issue for to much longer. Especially given we'll have personal-sized self-repairing psychic shielding relatively soon to protect people from being manipulated without their own consent.
We should probably get started on necron tech soon. It will give us more options to choose from, should we need to invest rapidly in a single round (aka. if we get a one-round warning of necron invasion).
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
How did the discussion about moral and ethical implications of cloning Navigators get to the point of @ShadeFiende referencing one of the dumbest parts of the second Ghost in the Shell movie?:
Can someone explain that one to me?
Also never make augmentations of a person have DRM. DRM never works for long on simple programs right now let alone will it work on anything/anyone complex enough to be sapient.
Can someone explain that one to me?
Also never make augmentations of a person have DRM. DRM never works for long on simple programs right now let alone will it work on anything/anyone complex enough to be sapient.
- Location
- Near Freiburg in South-West Germany
Its in the available research options, so its possible but we did not unlock the ship part yet.
About the DRM, yeah… yeah that was a dumb move by the corporation. Hopefully we're fixing that. If nothing else it should help stabilize their generics if we remove that stuff- at least a little bit.
As for the rest… I had no idea I was referencing anything. I was just a bit miffed that the idea that certain children shouldn't be born because they didn't consent to having their genetics exists. Or was brought up at all. I see no reason why we shouldn't bring Navigator children into existence, and 'because they didn't consent to have Navigator genetics' isn't any more of a valid one than claiming Colleen shouldn't be born Psykers because they didn't consent, or with some kind of biological telekinetic power.
That is the main frustration I have with the discussion. Children cannot consent to being born, much less consent to what their genetics are, and using that as an argument doesn't make sense to me.
- Location
- colombia
you cant get a perfect solution and perfectly moral scenario for everything
sometimes you pick a poison and roll with the punches
no one asks to be born,yet we appear with our traits/quirks and flaws,and we try to the best of the cards life gave us and said traits set us in a path
the navigator genetics are inmoral because it fines tune them into a single life path (sure you can have outliers,but lets not lie to ourselves,outliers are just the exceptions that confirm the rule,navigators will 99% default to navigation just like lion craves meat),they are slaved to being navigators by their genetics
but they are already here and there is no much we can do to fix that (unless you wanna forcibly take away their genes and make them baseline humans or outright genocide them)
so they are not perfect,but they are already here,may as well roll with the punches
There's a tech for that:
-[] Mobile Shipyards (75 RP) Fitting a shipyard inside a ship is an engineering challenge, but an entirely surmountable one. (Unlocks the shipyard equipment for ships, letting ships build ships).
That said, shipboard manufacturing facilities are kind of inefficient. Mega Manufacturing, now mobile! (150 RP) isn't strictly required, but if we want big factory ships, we probably want that tech, and we probably want the entire thing mounted on a Heavy Cruiser hull, if not larger. Given we've got a big shipbuilding setup in Denva that can be told to just build X ships while we're gone, I'm not sure it's worth the opportunity cost right now. There's a lot of other things we might want to research instead.
Like that. The general consensus is that we should do Advanced Materials (250 RP) first, as it'll unlock things Necron Research will then discount, but at least technically they could be done the same turn, though it'd be quite expensive (450 RP total).
Beyond those, there's plenty of other gateway techs that may be a good idea to start on, ranging from the Dark Eldar weapons and stealth techs to the High Energy Physics, Antimatter and Superconductivity techs. Of course, we don't have the RP for all of them, which is why there's also a lot of interest in RP adders, but if we stick Anexa on IU, we can't stick her on one of those, so people may want to 'save' that tech for another turn. Or just put off IU, I suppose.
In the end, a lot comes down to what happens in the next update. It may be that Ascalon really wants some agriculture tech to wean it's population of Corpse Starch. Maybe Denva has an encounter with Dark Eldar raiders that makes Eldar Stealth tech and better sensors the priority. Maybe our Cogitare colonies have researched a tech or two opening new doors for us. Or maybe some Rogue Trader will randomly show up and offer to sell us some shiny xenotech of some kind. There's a lot of things that could change; certainly, none of the speculative plans before last turn included The Vagaries of a Third Eye before the update dropped, but after literally every plan included it.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
Well, what we can do is simply not clone them. If Aurora wants to have navigator children, then sure, we let her. But if she doesn't and want a regular human child then we should allow her that as well.
Edit: If we are uncertain on the morality, we should simply ask someone who went through it if they truly want their children to suffer through it as well.
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Saying being a psyker is an upgrade is like saying a dinosaur is an upgrade to the modern avian and reptile. The circumstance that allowed the Eldar to thrive don't exist anymore. Just like how Earth isen't as oxygen ritch and warm as millenia past.
Using your computer computer annaloge, it dosen't mater how better the newer moddel is if I can't trust it to work properly and not fail me at the worst moments. What good is a computer that I risk crashing just by turning on? Or worse, runs a high risk of maiming and/or killing me in an battery explotion.
Untill the Warp gets fixed being a psyker is an sidegrade at best unless you have plot armor. You can't just lock at the capabilities of something in a vacuum and ignore the circumstance that surround it. Survival of the fittest dosen't mean survival of the strongest. It means survival of those most suited to survive and thrive in their environment and circumstances.
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Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
There is a massive difference between being born with a modified genome because of natural causes or because someone was trying to help you live an improved life and being born with a modified genome because someone like He Jiankui though your genome would be a good idea.
Um...the Third Eye of a Navigator is actually a really versatile organ that can be used for many things, majority of which is actually combat applications not navigation, but Navigators use it primarily for ship navigation in the Imperium. We are under no obligation to consider the Third Eye as the right solution for the problem of navigation let alone avoiding using it for anything other than Navigation like how Navis Nobilite do.
So the Available research thread mark was updated this morning but I didn't see anything different from before. Anyone notice anything new or is there nothing new yet?
Also on board with trying to crack Necron-schizo tech soon, as that shit is broken.
Other than that, I want us to fix the spice problem, it only costs us like 50RP just so we can get that done and over with and so that we don't raise up anymore cultures of spice-fiends.
While I'd also like for us to try for one more Warpaphone upgrade such as the Mobile Warpaphone upgrade just to further protect them and make it so we can take one with us, I'm okay if we don't this turn as they're good as is.
Also on board with trying to crack Necron-schizo tech soon, as that shit is broken.
Other than that, I want us to fix the spice problem, it only costs us like 50RP just so we can get that done and over with and so that we don't raise up anymore cultures of spice-fiends.
While I'd also like for us to try for one more Warpaphone upgrade such as the Mobile Warpaphone upgrade just to further protect them and make it so we can take one with us, I'm okay if we don't this turn as they're good as is.
I feel like the things we most need are approximately...
Also, on the subject of Vorthryn, it's probably worth noting that the Ascendancy is now moving into the system so if we actually want to take advantage of the manufacturing discounts there... We really need to prioritize actually doing something about it. Or else we'll swing by however many turns from now and find out that they beat us to it and all the former stations have been converted into Ascendancy controlled factories.
- Mobile Warpaphones (250 RP)
- MS Heavy Cruisers (100 RP)
- A design for an MS Heavy Cruiser with an onboard Warpaphone (50 RP)
- A source of OMC Officers who could pilot ships between Denva and wherever we happen to be (1 Diplomacy Action, ??? BP, ~1 Boon)
- An escort fleet to accompany ships being brought to us and to bring unneeded crew back to Denva (??? BP)
- A source of OMC Engineers (Same cost as the OMC Officer source)
Also, on the subject of Vorthryn, it's probably worth noting that the Ascendancy is now moving into the system so if we actually want to take advantage of the manufacturing discounts there... We really need to prioritize actually doing something about it. Or else we'll swing by however many turns from now and find out that they beat us to it and all the former stations have been converted into Ascendancy controlled factories.
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Navigators are humans- they have certain gifts and traits, but given some remain in seclusion in their Noble houses or even act as diplomats to other nobles on behalf of their noble houses, they clearly are not slaved to being Navigators(job) either. So no, the genetic trait of being a Navigator(species) is not immoral. Even if they were slaved to the job because of their genetics, we could remove that thanks to our knowledge and understanding of their genetics. Having a predisposition to enjoy a certain job, does not a slave make. Navigator genetics are not immoral- only the self-destructive copy-right 'protections' on them that necessitate extreme inbreeding are immoral, and we can remove those.
And again, even if there was a gene in there that made them NEED to get that job- which I'm fairly certain there isn't- we could fix/remove that.
Cloning is not immoral. And in this situation where necessity is what it is? All we can do is give them the most favorable circumstances possible. Unless we want to intentionally cripple ourselves and risk our future on untested procedures and unconfirmed methods, cloning and raising a large population of Navigators that can then do whatever they wish is our best option. Some will inevitably go into star-travel- but some normal people inevitably go into star-travel already. In a large enough group, certain commonalities are bound to show up. And at least cloned children and a stable population would be reliable and already exist as a confirmed option that would work. Unlike the idea of turning adult humans can be turned into Navigators and then successfully adapt to and use their newfound abilities.
Still, I like your idea. Talking to Aurora and getting her opinion would be a decent idea.
The opposite, actually? Unless you want to imply that dinosaurs are somehow further along the evolutionary tree than modern birds and reptiles. And both Sharks and Alligators have almost not changed at all since those ancient days, so also not exactly the best comparison.
To more directly address your point: We are actively creating the environment in which they can thrive. Psychic shielding, Faith as my Shield, Shielding meanings... we're setting up habitats and environments in which Psykers can and will thrive. So what exactly is your point here? Because I AM taking the current circumstances and environment into account. Especially since our shields are only getting better as we continue working on them.
To continue the computer analogy, we're setting up firewalls and running anti-virus software on the Psykers we have access too. Additionally, Psykers are more powerful computers. They have access to programs and computational abilities that standard humans simply do not have. Navigators even more so. So we've created the firewalls and anti-virus software and hardware needed prevent the issues, and are actively working on improving the strength and versatility of these defenses.
With that in mind... what is your point here?
Are you actively comparing Vita- who fully and completely understands the Navigator genome, developed new and thoroughly understood medical procedures and techniques specifically for addressing the issues involved, and then also had her top researcher Critically succeed on understanding the Third Eye, all for the sake of a girl who was already born and with morals and ethics that we all have seen are good, decent, and trustworthy- to a chinese man who experimented on unborn girls without a full understanding of the human genome and with unknown morals and questionable ethics in the modern day using a single, relatively limited technique?
Are you sincerely arguing that All of the time, effort, and focus that Vita has dedicated into this specific subject is equivalent to a modern day incomplete and questionable effort made by that man? Because I cannot understand how you could be connecting those two as anything but an incredibly potent example in extreme contrast. Because Vita has almost nothing in common with this 'He Jiankui' man aside from studying genetics and... I'm not really sure what else. Maybe trying to cure a genetic disease? I'm not even sure if that is common between them since we have dice and QM confirmation that Vita succeeded.
Besides which, we'd be doing this out of necessity. Again, we NEED Navigators to keep up with everyone else, until our Abacii can match them- which is supposedly a long ways down the Abacus Tech Tree, and we don't have the time or freedom to fixate on that Tech to the point we can get there. Yet. For no, Navigators are a necessity. So we either clone them, get them from someone who has them, or do gene-therapy which has never been tested or confirmed successful. Who knows how much additional Tech we'll need to make it successful?
Cloning: We need Cloning Tech, and then it will succeed.
Gene-therapy: Might succeed as-is, may need an unknown number of follow-on Techs
Obtain from elsewhere: Need a location with Navigators, need to diplomacy successfully, need to repeat every time we need new Navigators, Requires a lot of time to complete the other points
Abacus: Requires an unknown number of increasingly expensive Techs to reach an unspecified 'near the end' Tech before we can rival Navigators.
Are there any things I missed?
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
I too would like the Mobile Warpaphone option, but as that is kind of an us problem, I'm willing to see what follow-up tech we get from the recent discovery before I fully invest in it.
Edit
I don't think Cloning is inherently immoral. Nor do I think that Gene-editing is inherently immoral either. What concerns me about Navigators is that they're kinda pigeonholed into a type of work from birth, along with that they do suffer from an inherently decreased quality of life due to being both psykers and heavily mutated.
If we somehow could ensure zero mutations, then "perfectly normal" quality of life would still be beyond them because I see psykers as victims, not an evolutionary point that humanity should strive towards.
Edit 2: Regarding cloning, I've frankly been rather outspoken about giving the opportunity for childless couples to have their own children so to speak. I see no difference between people who were born from of a mechanical womb, or a natural one.
What I'm concerned with is people abusing such a system to, for example, quickly develop a workforce/army/test subjects/regular children without a parental family structure.
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First: I agree! Upgrading the Warpaphone is an awesome idea, especially making it mobile. But I also acknowledge your other points.
Second... I disagree. Psykers can do amazing, incredible things. Almost ALL of the Eldar Tech outside of the DEldar, are psychic in nature, and that is fascinating! They can perform wonders, heal others in seconds, and- if strong, skilled, and knowledgeable enough- terraform worlds in minutes. Psykers may be victims, but not because of what they are capable of, but because of the poison and refuse they deal with. To point to another work of fiction, Psykers are most like Male Channelers of Saidin, from The Wheel of Time. Something poisoned their well of power. However, on the flip side, we can and already have created Tech that filters some of the rot as they draw on it. We have created Tech that helps shield them against the urge to draw upon it when it isn't necessary. We have Tech we're researching that will make using it safer and less dangerous.
We already studied the Tech needed to reduce or remove mutations, we already have Shielding that further reduces those chances of mutation, and the severity if it shows up. We're already cracking down hard on every single aspect of negativity associated with being a Psyker AND a Navigator. And we plan to do even more in the future. I'm also not saying that Psykers should be strived for, only that they ARE an evolution of humanity.
Navigators and Psykers are not lesser, and they are not victims inherently, only because of circumstance- which we are actively improving.
Still, if your view is that they are inherently victims, that does drastically change the tone of your arguments so far, which is nice. It also helps me understand your viewpoint better. So thank you for that. Still, I view Psykers as- inherently- not victims. A Psyker taken in a void, in isolation, as nothing but a Psyker, is not a victim. It is only the state of The Warp and the lack of protections and training that makes them victims. Aspects that we are actively working on correcting and improving.
Navigators as they exist right now? Victims. Their genetics were intentionally sabotaged, and only severe inbreeding and technological interference allows them to exist. We can fix that genetic sabotage though, and otherwise they need the same circumstances as Psykers to thrive- which we're already working on providing.
So, I do not view them as inherently victims, and we're working on solving the issues that make them victims. So I don't view that as a reason to avoid it.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
No idea. As far as I can tell all of the Research we did this turn is still there.
We don't actually know if we fully understand the Navigator Genome yet, I'm comparing the designers of the Navigator Genome to He Jiankui on assuming that making Navigators is actually the correct solution to the problem of Warp Navigation and you've forgotten that Navigators use various forms of Diviners and Psytech to first even determine the entry point of their jump.
So Warp Antennas, Warp Sextants, Witch Augurs and Runecasting are all Research actions we should be able to take down the line in like a few turns.
Warp Antennas are just Mobile Warpaphones that ping a reference point in the Warp, usually the Astronomicon, Warp Sextants are Companion Cogitators connected to Warp Sensors that process the surrounding Warp locations while in travel, Witch Augurs are just Warp Witches trained in Divining paths trough the Warp and Runecasting is literally just a Warp Research project we need to find on the tech tree.
Vita doesn't actually know how much of the Navigator genome is necessary and how much of it is a self-fulfilling prophecy of a Dark Age of Technology monopolistic interests. We should keep and care for Navigators, but we shouldn't assume they are the solution to our transportation problems right now or in general.
Because if nothing else we know that there are Rituals for faster travel in Canon 40k.