Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Aineko said:
If we could pick one fight in preference to the others, I'd court the Ten Thousand Scourges of Hearth any time. We've deeply invested in the tech to counter their Warp capabilities, and we've got a good capacity to build against their conventional force. Plus, of course, liberating people from conquest by Chaos warlords is one of the nicer options for territory to fight across.

Unfortunately, there's not really anything we can do to ensure we dance with only one threat at a time...
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East is also the direction of that daemon world, to be fair. We're going to be putting our shielding tech through its paces one way or another, haha.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
So by what metric is the Stellar Ascendancy an "adult", meaning being prepared to independently survive and thrive?
  • Age?
    • They lost most of their history with the pullout of the imperium and the extinction of its original governing dynasty, and have existed for less than half a thousand years, in a galaxy where mature civilizations are ones that have been around for well into the tens of thousands of years since their predecessor's fall.
    • For example, the most notable newcomers are the Tau, who started the first sphere of expansion about five thousand years ago. They are notably a faction that is still characterized by naivety, especially towards Chaos and the warp. Post-Imperium Denva as a planet-locked entity is not even a tenth that age, and the Stellar Ascendancy is not even into the triple digits.
  • Growth?
    • They're confined to one system. In 40k terms, beyond insignificant.
    • Their industry just got kicked in the teeth - pound for pound it's better than everyone else's, but the weight class difference is too stark to bridge that gap against the standing forces everyone else has.
    • They have no trade partners or allies except us.
    • This conversation mostly started because they haven't rebuilt their navy, so that's a bust too.
  • Experience? With what?
    • Science and Technology?
      • First, a disclaimer: The technologies we give them are no more evidence of their maturity there than a child's allowance is evidence of employment. Their R&D sector was torn asunder by the Echo's invasion, and they're now asking us to help them set it up again. The founding of their modern research and design methodologies - not the institutions, those got ass blasted as said - is still in living memory, there is little applicable prior knowledge to draw on, no giants to stand on the shoulders of but Vita's. I will be judging this on what they've demonstrated and done, not by what they have.
      • The Stellar Ascendancy's research and development prospects are better than most here, but between being an isolated imperial successor state, the Mechanicus enclaves drop-kicking any attempt at building institutions for R&D they could find until Vita couped them, the war-band drop-kicking those institutions again after we left just as they might have otherwise hit their stride, they're mostly still building from the ground up. We have a boon bounty for helping them do it, even. Denva's experience at R&D is promising, but still in its early stages.
      • Archaeology. Look, this is 40k Finding and reverse engineering old human tech, and acquired xeno-tech are core skillsets for any competent state's technology program. Here, Denva has their two centuries+ of living under the yoke of the Mechanicus enclaves and stealing or otherwise exfiltrating secrets from them while denying that they're doing it - and the Cogitare inherited a culture that prizes the ability to find and reproduce Archaeotech, and interally tried to reverse engineer and steal each other's secrets constantly, so the Stellar Ascendancy isn't unfamiliar... But they haven't actually had much opportunity to apply it outside of their bubble. Klyssar's nest was a particular bright spot, having their founding mythos rooted in a sink-or-swim application of this skill to the station they live on, but they've still taken a hell of a beating, and have not had much time or opportunity to let that ethos cook, you know? Denva's experience with exploration is limited, and with reverse engineering, narrow.
      • Secrecy. In 40k, tech advantage can be retained for far longer than is realistic, but that presupposes you know how to do it. In that respect Denva could be better, but they also could be worse - they failed to deny all of their orbital manufacturing to the war-band, but while the war-band managed to jury rig the ability to use those captured facilities eventually, and they had developed novel attacks against psy shielding which may indicate some was captured, they noticeably did not have jammers, did not have more bots than could be explained by capture, and were USING that jury-rigged manufacturing to make what mostly appeared to be conventional (for them) designs. All in all, an expensive but valuable lesson for a polity that managed to avoid several worst case scenarios in this field. With the Cogitare being revitalized, the institutional ad-mech knowledge on the subject should become more prominent in their thinking as well. Denva has a ways left to go at preserving technological secrets, but they're making rapid progress.
    • Are they experienced at Warfare?
      • They had some intra-planetary squabbles that were extremely counterproductive to their overall fortunes, and we had to roll a nat 100 to beat it out of them. Then, they overcorrected and stopped making or staging war matériel almost altogether, and nearly got pwn'd by an otherwise easily stoppable corsair raid for it. Then, they didn't correct from the raid enough and took almost 30 years to get more warships, directly leading to their present condition. Denva's wisdom of what wars to prepare for and attempt is at best nascent and untested, if not outright dismissable as poor and self-destructive.
      • The dust is still clearing from their first defensive war with an extraterrestrial threat, in which they folded like a lawn chair and barely managed to survive the aftermath through insurgency. Denva's experience in spaceborne defensive warfare is insignificant, and their starting point questionable.
      • They have not fought a single naval battle as the aggressor, much less prosecuted an interplanetary war. Denva's experience in spaceborne offensive warfare is non-existent.
      • In matters of planetary/ground warfare Denva is better. Not good, but better. It should not escape anyone's notice that Neablis planned to have a commander Crew candidate appear, but that Denva rolled too poorly for one to be available, leaving W as the best candidate even though open warfare isn't her wheelhouse at all. Old PDF gear and manuals fall into the same category as Vita's gifts of technology - they are not things the Stellar Ascendancy made or created by the sweat of their brow, they are not indications of maturity and experience in the field... and imperial PDF doctrine is kind of shit, anyways. Denva's experience in Planetary warfare is serviceable, but considerably underdeveloped.
      • These factors collectively dictate that the Stellar Ascendancy really is a baby at warfare, even if not quite helpless. It should go without saying that War Hammer anythingis a bad place to be if you're green at warfare, least of all 40k. By any sane reckoning, that qualifies this civilization as being a child outright, in need of external support to reliably survive.
        • But, what if they got that support from someone other than Vita? For that, we must ask...
    • Are they experienced at Diplomacy?
      • Secondus's Internal politics/diplomacy was a shitshow not too long ago. They've made great strides in theory, unification of the government and all, but is still facing one of its first major tests - the invasion is over, insurgency is likely squashed, but there is more to winning the peace than that. How they handle the Two Denvas divide will be quite telling. W is a real ace on their side here though. Denva's Internal diplomacy is mature for the purpose of an isolated state, but is mostly untested against the unique challenges imposed on it by the wider galaxy.
      • Secondus's experience with External diplomacy is promising, but far too narrow to call mature. W knocked it out of the park interfacing with Vita, and pulling the wool over the local Mechanicus's eyes - but we know very little about how or even if they interfaced with Primus, and they have yet to interact with any of 40k's other polities on any terms except losing a war and winning an insurgency against the Echo of Apotheosis's war-band. The fractious nature of the planet's internal politics is a benefit to their experience here - Aevon, Denva (the country), the other nations, the Mechanicus enclaves, the monasteries, diplomacy and cold war with humans from positions of strength and weakness is something they have a wealth of institutional knowledge of... but how transferrable that is to the wider galaxy remains to be seen.
        • It's also telling that foreign policy with system visitors had, until we left, been handled exclusively by Vita with no meaningful participation by the Secondus government(s).
      • Secondus's demonstrated competence with planetary counter-espionage is superb. W and her Alphabetical Order need no introduction - but for the sake of completeness Aevon intelligence seized on Vita immediately and reframed the meeting and relationship to be on their terms, were overwhelmingly successful at hiding Vita's and Aevon's buildup and uplift from the Mechanicus Enclaves, and it clearly succeeded at its first major test against an extraterrestrial opponent by not just surviving the 11-year occupation but keeping Aevon chaos-free entirely and building some measure of secret assets to assist the relief of the siege, even if it fell short of what they'd have needed to avert their eventual fall on their own. Were it not for the huge, huge asterisk of the scope of this experience being in the management of a single planet and system assets, I'd be able to call their counter-espionage in general mature, but alas, that is the farthest thing from a small distinction.
    • On the whole... there's some bright spots with their experience, but mostly where we personally put in lots of diplomatic effort, or wherever W looms menacingly. Their capabilities are wondrous - but their institutions are still extremely wet behind the ears.
  • Results?Lacking any other reason to call someone mature and able to live independently, success needs no justification, after all.
    • But we're only having this conversation because people keep being disappointed with their results, so.

Like, I get it. Denva is more technologically advanced than real life earth, more unified than it, more populous than it, but when talking about if a civilization is mature and capable of surviving independently, the real world isn't what we're measuring against.

Chaos, The Imperium, The Orks, The Eldar, The Necrons, and maybe if you squint The Tau are.

By the rubric of what it takes to survive and thrive alongside or against all of them as an independent actor, Denva just isn't there yet, and probably won't be for some time.

That's the bottom line.
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This is a bit of an intimidating post to argue against, especially when keeping in mind the rule against spaghetti posting, but I will give it my best.

In terms of age they have not lost their history and the Tau are a good example of what a society with a very short galactic history to compare against. Thalya was not squatting on all the Imperial files, just some of the senior level mechanicus files, many of the others would become available to the post Vita Denva though hacking and defections. But also some of that insight into the likes of Chao, the Eldar and the Necrons were in the government files. The Tau would kill for the insight into the wider galaxy that the governments of Denva had when Vita woke up, or for that matter for their insight into the warp with the monasteries. Yes they were not making functional psykers, but they understood the dangers of the warp and the Gods. And that is another thing, we know what it looks like when a human society loses continuity in this setting because it has happened countless times throughout galactic history, most notably during the Age of Strife. Tera for instance could not be considered to be in any kind of continuity with the old Stellar federation when it was a patchwork of warlords even if some legends survived because they did not understand and conceptualize what that civilization was.

On the other hand let's look at the first time Vita met W, she was very worried about Vita going to the Imperium because she knew what the Imperium was like and what it would do. Hell the reason the monasteries mentained their isolation, that is a major aspect of their way of life was predicated on fear and hope of the Imperium's return. It seems like they were very in touch with their history and they became a part of the new Denva after we initiated contact, enough so that we could trade our boons with the civilization of Denva to get more psykers

I do not consider growth relevant, otherwise that planet with the battle nuns would also have to be thought of as a new civilization just because they are planet bound when they are just Imperials, big hats and all.

The Expereince category I think ilustrates where we differ in perspective more I think, a lack of skill at galactic scale action does not a young civilization make. You can be an old established civilization and not know how to deal with the galaxy at large. A necron Tomb World just Awakening has no idea how to deal with most of the things out there in the modern 40K galaxy, but they are the oldest of old civs still around, even older than the Eldar.
 
DragonParadox said:
I do not consider growth relevant, otherwise that planet with the battle nuns would also have to be thought of as a new civilization just because they are planet bound when they are just Imperials, big hats and all.

The Expereince category I think ilustrates where we differ in perspective more I think, a lack of skill at galactic scale action does not a young civilization make. You can be an old established civilization and not know how to deal with the galaxy at large. A necron Tomb World just Awakening has no idea how to deal with most of the things out there in the modern 40K galaxy, but they are the oldest of old civs still around, even older than the Eldar.
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...Maybe the child/adult metaphor wasn't a great idea after all.

The more important part isn't age, but rather the ability to survive and thrive among a hostile galaxy. And to be frank... Ascalon isn't all there either, even if they've kept more institutional knowledge from the imperium.

The lost history thing is... yeah, I suppose I may have overstated things there, but "doesn't know what's supposed to be in the rest of the subsector" is still a smoking gun for a lot of basic knowledge being lost.

Either way, "not prepared to deal with the galaxy at large" is the problem I'm describing as why we still have to help, because as the crossroads system of the crossroads subsector, the galaxy at large is coming to them. That's why growth was in there, that's why experience took up so many words - these are the primary measures by which we can judge readiness to survive and thrive without our direct attention or support.

Warp comms stand to cut the gordian knot, at least a little, but this is realistically about Denva's situation being really, really unfair if not for Vita being there to provide cheat codes and the occasional backup. Denva cannot exist as an isolationist state. Their territory is too strategically valuable for that - they must get that skill and power applicable to galactic stage operation or they will be crushed by everyone else who wants to take it.
 
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Aineko said:
Yeah, but Chaos warlords you can definitely beat with a plasma gun to the face.

As I've said I'm not sure what the daemon world actually does, but I'm told you can't just blow those up.
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Oh, absolutely. I just figure we wouldn't, like, actually pick a fight with the daemon world itself but rather probably some of the warlords and shit in between us and it. The space marines said they were expanding IIRC, and fucking with some super death evil torture space colonists sounds like a good time.

It'll be a good while before we have the gear and backup to try tackling a splinter faction stronghold, I think.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
...Maybe the child/adult metaphor wasn't a great idea after all.

The more important part isn't age, but rather the ability to survive and thrive among a hostile galaxy. And to be frank... Ascalon isn't all there either, even if they've kept more institutional knowledge from the imperium.

The lost history thing is... yeah, I suppose I may have overstated things there, but "doesn't know what's supposed to be in the rest of the subsector" is still a smoking gun for a lot of basic knowledge being lost.

Either way, "not prepared to deal with the galaxy at large" is the problem I'm describing as why we still have to help, because as the crossroads system of the crossroads subsector, the galaxy at large is coming to them. That's why growth was in there, that's why experience took up so many words - these are the primary measures by which we can judge readiness to survive and thrive without our direct attention or support.

Warp comms stand to cut the gordian knot, at least a little, but this is realistically about Denva's situation being really, really unfair if not for Vita being there to provide cheat codes and the occasional backup. Denva cannot exist as an isolationist state. Their territory is too strategically valuable for that - they must get that skill and power applicable to galactic stage operation or they will be crushed.
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Oh they certainly need help and I am willing to vote to help, but I think the 'child' metaphor came with some strings as to the depth of our obligation that warranted a bit of push-back. Their position is unfair, but they are sadly not unique in that unfairness, we can and should share our help with others and it might be that the core for an iconoclast civ in this corner of space doesn't come from Denva in spite of their head start. After all it almost didn't. If they had rolled Tyranids or Necrons we might have come back to a dead world.
 
thatguy99998 said:
You can. Its just really unsatisying to have it reform as you leave. None the worse for the literal Yottajoules you just pumped into it.
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I dunno, the scenes where someone keeps popping a regenerator in the face long past the point that they've established it's not doing anything but annoying them can be pretty funny, and we could totally set up the logistics for a continuous supply of two-stage cyclonic torpedoes.
 
thatguy99998 said:
You can. Its just really unsatisying to have it reform as you leave. None the worse for the literal Yottajoules you just pumped into it.
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Really!?! I was only aware of some planets in the Halo stars that can un-exterminatus themselves. I was under the impression that while Demon worlds were overtaken by the Warp they sort of were still somewhat vulnerable to Exterminatus, just that it was also extremely dangerous for ships to try.
 
Neablis said:
Turn 30:
-[] Hardware Psychic Encryption (50 RP) To properly block scrying, you need to design new psychic shielding. You don't think it'll be more expensive, but you could be wrong. (New versions of psychic shielding that block scrying with much greater effectiveness. Likely unlocks better versions that will defeat the most powerful seers, and may unlock specialized research to build installations that will deny scrying and foresight over a larger area - like a system) Barely a good success.
All of the psychic shields you build from here on out will block normal scrying and warp communication.
-[] Small-scale design-integrated psychic shielding (150 RP) You could take this approach a step further, and integrate the psychic shielding into the designs of bots, vehicles and small installations from the start. (Makes the cheapest version of psychic shielding free & automatic to build into bots, vehicles and small installations. Will likely improve the quality of shielding available and unlock research for further shielding improvements) Good Success
You can design psychic shielding on bots & other small objects that will not increase manufacturing costs. Can't break the rules for multiple layers of shielding.
-[] The Taste of Chaos (100 RP) When investigating the stations in Vorthryn, and again when investigating the artifacts you found a flavor to the warp signatures hanging around the chaos-corrupted stations. If you do more analysis on it, you should be able to set up some filters that can tell you when a signature is chaos-associated or identify active Chaos-cults, chaotic blessings or chaoticlly-enhanced items through sensors alone (Makes your warp sensors very sensitive to Chaos-associated markers. More useful in detecting cults than individuals, though will be able to detect chaos blessings. Like to unlock further research to screen for ever-smaller amounts of chaotic influence). Good (almost critical) success.
Your warp-sensors are sensitive to chaos signatures, including chaos blessings & inactive artifacts at close range, and active chaos rituals at long range. You will have some idea of what the blessing/ritual is when you detect it, and who its dedicated to.
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We've got 3/5 Research Actions updated on the Completed Research Informational Threadmark. Thoughts? Opinions?

KyleDaScourge said:
Given what passes for an afterlife in 40k, I think I'd pass on having a soul personally.

The best answer we can extrapolate is that your 'soul' dissolves into the Warp, but that has a couple of additional addendums.

That brief moment of dissolution can, and often does, feel like an eternity.

The dissolution doesn't mean you're gone, anymore than the sugar cube you put into your tea is gone just because you don't see it anymore. The sugar is still there, and so are the fragments of you. Those fragments, however, if any are incorporated enough to experience anything, experience nothing but torment.

A suitably skilled scientist or suitably powerful psyker/sorcerer can reconstitute a soul, or at least either the majority of one or an indistinguishable facsimile of one. However, the spirit will be forever changed by the experience, usually for the worse. Whether that is because of the trauma, or because some fragments are missing, is a matter of conjecture.

Suitably powerful entities can preserve your spirit from dissolution if they're so inclined. The Chaos Gods, for example. Ynnead can also do this, and Ceogorach is rumored to be able to as well. Few entities choose to do this.
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That is literally the Cosmic Horror version of the afterlife from His Dark Materials. It also means that if we advance enough in the direction of incarnation we will be able to pull some ancient souls out of the Warp and into new bodies and then give them cooldown hugs.
 
Dmol8 said:
We've got 3/5 Research Actions updated on the Completed Research Informational Threadmark. Thoughts? Opinions?
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Empathy at Range got discounted by 50 RP, also plenty of other discounts (and some follow ups in the available research threadmark)

< -[] Small-scale design-integrated psychic shielding (150 RP) You could take this approach a step further, and integrate the psychic shielding into the designs of bots, vehicles and small installations from the start. (Makes the cheapest version of psychic shielding free & automatic to build into bots, vehicles and small installations. Will likely improve the quality of shielding available and unlock research for further shielding improvements)
<
<
< -[] Large-scale Design-integrated psychic shielding (250 RP) Start installing this shielding into hull plates as the norm. Every ship will have psychic shielding (Makes the cheapest version of psychic shielding free & automatic for all ships and platforms. Will unlock research to make this shielding better)
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> -[] Large-scale Design-integrated psychic shielding (175 RP) Start installing this shielding into hull plates as the norm. Every ship will have psychic shielding (Makes the cheapest version of psychic shielding free & automatic for all ships and platforms. Will unlock research to make cheaper shielding better)
242c239
< -[] Tiny Psychic shielding (400 RP) You were able to make your smaller psychic shielding by stacking the components and using the interference caused to generate the proper effect. However, you don't understand that interference well enough to go any smaller. Once you do, you can start to try to make actually tiny versions of the psychic shielding, small enough to fit in implants, or potentially into totems that project the shielding effect outside of themselves. (Fixes the issues with personal psychic shields, unlocks the ability to create implants with psychic shielding capability and potentially allows you to make amulets with psychic shields. May unlock additional technology to make all of that better.) Requires Triple Nested Psychic shielding
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> -[] Tiny Psychic shielding (350 RP) You were able to make your smaller psychic shielding by stacking the components and using the interference caused to generate the proper effect. However, you don't understand that interference well enough to go any smaller. Once you do, you can start to try to make actually tiny versions of the psychic shielding, small enough to fit in implants, or potentially into totems that project the shielding effect outside of themselves. (Fixes the issues with personal psychic shields, unlocks the ability to create implants with psychic shielding capability and potentially allows you to make amulets with psychic shields. May unlock additional technology to make all of that better.) Requires Triple Nested Psychic shielding
248c245
< -[] Multi-meaning shields (300 RP) Your current shields say "No." Other sayings probably exist, and saying multiple things at the same time might have more esoteric effects, such as damaging attackers or defending better against certain types of attacks. Combining multiple of those into one shield could be powerful. (Allows you to combine two shield types together into one shield. May unlock further research for further combination, or to say one meaning EXTRA HARD.) Requires Alternative Shielding Meanings
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> -[] Multi-meaning shields (250 RP) Your current shields say "No." Other sayings probably exist, and saying multiple things at the same time might have more esoteric effects, such as damaging attackers or defending better against certain types of attacks. Combining multiple of those into one shield could be powerful. (Allows you to combine two shield types together into one shield. May unlock further research for further combination, or to say one meaning EXTRA HARD.) Requires Alternative Shielding Meanings
251c248
< -[] Scrapcode Denial (400 RP) Scrapcode - and psychic corruption in general - is a difficult opponent. It's hard to enforce mistakes when it can magically see through your defenses. But if you could incorporate psychic encryption into that approach, it becomes viable again. (Makes your shielding Extraordinarily resistant to potentially completely immune to scrapcode-based attacks. Does not apply to machine spirits yet. May unlock technology to apply to other kinds of corruption. Likely synergistic with generating your own scrapcode)
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> -[] Scrapcode Denial (300 RP) Scrapcode - and psychic corruption in general - is a difficult opponent. It's hard to enforce mistakes when it can magically see through your defenses. But if you could incorporate psychic encryption into that approach, it becomes viable again. (Makes your shielding Extraordinarily resistant to potentially completely immune to scrapcode-based attacks. Does not apply to machine spirits yet. May unlock technology to apply to other kinds of corruption. Likely synergistic with generating your own scrapcode)
254c251
< -[] Psychic Shield Tuning (200 RP) Your new scrapcode defenses help against scrapcode, but not necessarily other threats. This research would potentially allow you to tune the capabilities of your shielding on the fly to improve performance against other angles of attack. (Resistance to specific types of attack will improve with exposure, up to a cap. Unlocks more research to allow for more flexible shielding that can target specific weaknesses of various psychic enemies. Synergizes with mutli-meaning shielding.)
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> -[] Psychic Shield Tuning (150 RP) Your new scrapcode defenses help against scrapcode, but not necessarily other threats. This research would potentially allow you to tune the capabilities of your shielding on the fly to improve performance against other angles of attack. (Resistance to specific types of attack will improve with exposure, up to a cap. Unlocks more research to allow for more flexible shielding that can target specific weaknesses of various psychic enemies. Synergizes with mutli-meaning shielding.)
257c254
< -[] Hardware Psychic Encryption (50 RP) To properly block scrying, you need to design new psychic shielding. You don't think it'll be more expensive, but you could be wrong. (New versions of psychic shielding that block scrying with much greater effectiveness. Likely unlocks better versions that will defeat the most powerful seers, and may unlock specialized research to build installations that will deny scrying and foresight over a larger area - like a system)
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> -[] Enhanced Psychic Encryption (250 RP) You can block normal scrying and warp communication, as if you were encrypting everything. But it's possible that really good scryers could unscramble the signals somehow. Maybe? You're not sure. Still, it would be good to cut off the possibility. (New versions of psychic shielding that block even scrying & communication by expert seers. Likely to unlock specialized research to build installations that will deny scrying and foresight over a larger area - like a planet or system.) Requires Immaterium Understanding
273c270,273
< -[] The Taste of Chaos (100 RP) When investigating the stations in Vorthryn, and again when investigating the artifacts you found a flavor to the warp signatures hanging around the chaos-corrupted stations. If you do more analysis on it, you should be able to set up some filters that can tell you when a signature is chaos-associated or identify active Chaos-cults, chaotic blessings or chaoticlly-enhanced items through sensors alone (Makes your warp sensors very sensitive to Chaos-associated markers. More useful in detecting cults than individuals, though will be able to detect chaos blessings. Like to unlock further research to screen for ever-smaller amounts of chaotic influence).
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> -[] The Epicure of Chaos (150 RP) You can bin warp signatures into blessings, artifacts or rituals, as well as distinguish what god they came from. But you're not sure if you could tell apart a ritual of summoning from a ritual of empowerment or a ritual meant to attack an enemy. Work on that. (Allows you to detect what kind of ritual/blessing/artifact you're dealing with on the fly. Unlocks new intelligence when dealing with chaos, as well as the potential for actively countering or interfering with chaos when paired with alternative shielding meanings).
>
>
> -[] The faintest whiff of the Chaos-Touched (250 RP) Warp signatures linger on objects and people. It'll be a short range-sensor, and may end up being some kind of scanner, but you can probably tease out the passive remnants of a ritual or even association with chaos-blessed objects on a person. (Unlocks improvements to sensors that will let you detect people who've been in proximity to a chaos ritual or have touched a chaos artifact, even if they bear no blessing.)
279c279
< -[] Empathy at Range (200 RP) Your warp sensors work well on things that are nearby, but they're definitely not able to detect anything large beyond combat range, or smaller things beyond very close range. Maybe it's a matter of improving sensitivity, maybe you need to specifically build some parts of your psychic shield to extend range. (Makes your warp sensors active at longer range, unlocks further research to pinpoint psychic activities from across the solar system. Half of the prereq for basic warp-based FTL communication)
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> -[] Empathy at Range (150 RP) Your warp sensors work well on things that are nearby, but they're definitely not able to detect anything large beyond combat range, or smaller things beyond very close range. Maybe it's a matter of improving sensitivity, maybe you need to specifically build some parts of your psychic shield to extend range. (Makes your warp sensors active at longer range, unlocks further research to pinpoint psychic activities from across the solar system. Half of the prereq for basic warp-based FTL communication)
285c285
< -[] Warp Weather Prediction (450 RP) The Warp has been said to have "weather." Well, at least storms. But if you're constantly monitoring the signals from your psychic shielding, you can start to make predictions about what will come. That... might be useful. (Likely to give you advance warning of significant warp-effects, especially warp storms. May unlock further research to improve warp navigation, and if you crit again, a strange kind of warp-based technological foresight.)
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> -[] Warp Weather Prediction (350 RP) The Warp has been said to have "weather." Well, at least storms. But if you're constantly monitoring the signals from your psychic shielding, you can start to make predictions about what will come. That... might be useful. (Likely to give you advance warning of significant warp-effects, especially warp storms. May unlock further research to improve warp navigation, and if you crit again, a strange kind of warp-based technological foresight.)
303c303
< -[] Immaterium Understanding (225 RP) Anexa believes she understands something fundamental about the warp. Do some experimements to see if she's right. (Further discounts on all warp-related research, potential to unlock a research from farther down a warp research tree while skipping prerequisites) Anexa must work on this action. Guaranteed level(s) for her. Requires Warp Research Lab.
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> -[] Immaterium Understanding (200 RP) Anexa believes she understands something fundamental about the warp. Do some experimements to see if she's right. (Further discounts on all warp-related research, potential to unlock a research from farther down a warp research tree while skipping prerequisites) Anexa must work on this action. Guaranteed level(s) for her. Requires Warp Research Lab.
 
> -[] The faintest whiff of the Chaos-Touched (250 RP) Warp signatures linger on objects and people. It'll be a short range-sensor, and may end up being some kind of scanner, but you can probably tease out the passive remnants of a ritual or even association with chaos-blessed objects on a person. (Unlocks improvements to sensors that will let you detect people who've been in proximity to a chaos ritual or have touched a chaos artifact, even if they bear no blessing.)

This seems useful for detecting cults, though it carries the unfortunate risk that it might make suspect someone who has been exposed to chaos without having been corrupted by it. Otherwise good discounts, especially regarding empathy at range
 
henkalv said:
AFAIK not really? He declared Dante Regent of it, but Dante has enough problems to deal with as is. Mostly it's just all sort of petty Imperial kingdoms being corrupted with Abaddon playing puppet master, all the assorted usual horribleness with orks and drukhari, the Necrons waking up and the Tyranids about to bust in.

There are loads of bad stuff in the wings, but I don't think a organised imperial response is the top of that list, unless the Arbites/mechanicus hear about a Abominable Intelligence, in which case we might get a shield host/explorator fleet thrown at us.
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Aineko said:
Well, it's 100% what I was talking about when that topic came up. Remember, those 'smaller factions' aren't small. The Knights of the Crimson Vigil gave us maps that show them holding an entire sector and a quarter of the next sector towards us - and probably bits of three more sectors they didn't give us maps of because they weren't on the path between us and their center.

I'm not a 40K expert either, but my understanding is there is no canon conclusion to the Era Indomitus as yet, no resolution to the Great Rift, and no fate for Imperium Nihilus. However, the state of things does not suggest a decisive Imperial resurgence over here. The Crusade Indomitus largely breaks down into a multitude of local conflicts (on the other side of the rift TBC), and Imperium Nihilus is placed under the theoretical regency of Chapter Master Dante of the Blood Angels.

Meta, I think GW is turning Nihilus into an adventurer's playground where you can have any scenario you like without having to worry about the heavy foot of Imperium telling you no. (Including scenarios about Imperial fragments doing Imperial stuff, of course!)
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Aineko said:
I don't think the Spark is as capable as you're making it out to be - as I've said many times I wouldn't bet on us against two cruisers, let alone a proper squadron, and we can't outrun any but the laziest cruisers.

But that said, yes, I have no idea what would or honestly could be expected to stop Vita if she just decided Sector Thrace was a bad time and booked it for the galactic rim. If we let go our attachments (and build a small fleet and decant our navbean) we could show our heels to just about anything and everything. Certain enemies could get ahead of us if they wanted to (Eldar and the less-material side of Chaos, for sure), but even if they did want to we'd just run away from them again.

That's not the quest I'd prefer to see, but it seems within our theoretical options unless there's word of QM against it.
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People? WTF!?? OK the short of it is:

Article:

Era Indomius


"I will teach them to fear the darkness in which they dwell, and to dread the shadows they believe their allies, for there is no greater terror hunting the stygian void than the Lion of Caliban."

—Lion El'Jonson after his awakening in the Era Indomitus of the 41st Millennium
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In the Era Indomitus, during the Arks of Omen Campaign, Lion El'Jonson awoke at last from his ten-thousand-year long sleep within the very heart of The Rock. While his brother primarch Roboute Guilliman's forté lies in matters of command and administration -- a task he accomplishes with aplomb -- Lion El'Jonson was ever a warrior, a hunter and killer, first and foremost. Now awakened into a galaxy of darkness and insanity, he strides between the stars on a mission of vengeance.

Yet, somehow, long before his return reached the ears of the wider galaxy, the Lion's legend had begun to spread from planet to planet within Imperial space -- disconnected worlds united by a mysterious figure who stalked from mist-wreathed passageways to cut down fearsome monsters like chaff. Some knew him as the "Cowled Giant" or the "Unforgiving Knight," or even mistakenly as the "Emperor Incarnate," and his arrival was always heralded by an apparition of ancient forests fading from the aether.

The true nature of this empyric travel is known only to the primarch himself, but as he lay slumbering beneath The Rock his dreams often returned to the Calibanite forests of his youth. Could he have been borne in his restless sleep to other worlds by the ghosts of that same arboreal realm, slain in the destruction of Caliban? He's certainly not telling, but the practical applications of this ability to appear as if from nowhere through the Warp are not lost on him.


Article:

Awakening


Lion El'Jonson awoke in the mysterious realm known as Mirror-Caliban in M42 without his memories, after millennia of sleeping since the original Caliban's destruction. After encountering the old king on the river, whose waters played a song that he could hear, the Lion was approached by a Watcher in the Dark and he asked it where they were. The diminutive figure would simply reply Home, before informing the Primarch of the king's condition and to beware of the shadows that dwell near him. The Lion then moved on and discovered a domed building, but once more the Watcher appeared and warned the Primarch against entering it, stating he was not yet strong enough to safely do so. When an annoyed Lion asked what he should be doing instead to make sense of where he was, the Watcher told the Primarch to follow his nature. This led Lion El'Jonson to follow the stench of corruption until the trees of Mirrior-Caliban[32a]​ were replaced by those of the ruined world Camarth[43b]​. It was there that the Primarch encountered the Fallen Angel Zabriel, which caused El'Jonson's memories to return to him.[32c]​

As time went on, the Primarch learned how to freely enter Mirror-Caliban and use it to reach other worlds[1i]​. By focusing on where he wants to go, El'Jonson causes the location to slowly appear within realm, until its forest finally fades away and the Primarch enters his destination[1e]​. This ability is known as the Forestwalk, which also allows Lion El'Jonson to take others with him upon these journeys[32e]​[32i]​ and the Primarch has used it to great effect in his battles against the Imperium's foes. Upon doing so, he is then teleported to another location[32e]​, which Lion El'Jonson discovers contains Fallen Angels[1g]​. The Primarch does not know, however, if this feeling that leads him to his wayward sons is an instinct of his or if another force within Mirror-Caliban is pulling him towards the Fallen Angels.[32f]​ The Lion has since formed a warband of loyalist Fallen known as The Risen.[32h]​

Alongside Zabriel, his growing loyalist force of Risen, and the emerging Lion Guard auxilia, Lion El'Jonson worked to save his newly claimed region of Imperium Nihilus from the Ten Thousand Eyes Warband[32e]​. Battling the Ten Thousand Eyes on Camarth and Avalus, on the world of Sable Lion El'Jonson was briefly captured by the Fallen Sorcerer Lord Seraphax. The Fallen Sorcerer revealed he intended to remove The Lion's soul from his body and use it as a puppet to gain audience with the Emperor. Seraphax would then use The Lion's slaved form to kill The Emperor, which Seraphax believed would elevate the Master of Mankind to a new Warp deity to destroy both Chaos and Xenos. However thanks to the intervention of The Risen, the Lion was able to escape and defeat Seraphax.[32i]​[32j]​




Lion El'Jonson following his return to the Imperium in M42

After defeating Seraphax, The Lion continued to master his Forestwalk and attempted to unravel the mystery of Mirror-Caliban. The mysterious realm also once held the power sword[32d]​ Fealty[32e]​ and the Emperor's Shield[32j]​, until both were discovered by Lion El'Jonson[32e]​[32j]​. The latter was contained in the domed building the Watcher had warned him against entering and upon doing so anyways, The Lion fought a Daemon that could shape-shift into the forms of his brother Primarchs. This ability caused him to be overwhelmed by the creature, until the Lion found the Emperor's Shield within the building and used its powers to destroy the Daemon.[32j]​

Shortly after claiming the Emperor's Shield, The Lion rendezvoused with a group of Blood Angels that had arrived to investigate rumors of the Lion's return. Lion El'Jonson convenes with Dante, who shocks the Primarch by revealing that Roboute Guilliman lived.[32k]​




Lion El'Jonson faces Angron on Wyrmwood

Arks of Omen


Boarding the Blood Angels flagship Absolution's Ire, the Lion made for the Idolatros System before using his Forestwalk to journey to the Wyrmwood amidst the fierce Battle of Idolatros, reappearing before the Unforgiven as they battled the forces of Vashtorr, Black Legion, and World Eaters.[33a]​

Upon manifesting, the Lion immediately saved Dante from the Daemon Primarch Angron. The two Primarchs subsequently engaged in a massive duel across Wyrmwood until Lion El'Jonson was able to use Angron's own attack to force the tip of Fealty into the Daemon's throat. After dispatching Angron with the Emperor's Shield, Lion El'Jonson and his Risen cleared a path for the Blood Angels and Unforgiven to evacuate back to their ships and escape as Wyrmwood activated The Key. Afterwards, Lion El'Jonson was declared the Knight of Nihilus.[33b]​

Since his reawakening, the Knight of Nihilus has shown an even greater disdain for what has become of the Imperium than even Guilliman. When he appears on worlds, he often bypasses the local Governor and Imperial authorities and deals personally with the local civilians and soldiery. The Lion's coming has often heralded a vast regime change and reform process, for few of these leaders will dare defy a Primarch.[34]​


Lion El'Jonson is coming. He is the Knight of Nihilus and the mid-game of this quest starts whenever it is that @Neablis has decided that the First Primarch shows up to shore up our sector. Good News he hates the current Imperium Rulers, Bad News he is hitting every important system for connecting the Imperium Nihilus back to the Imperium.

And El'Jonson is the AI specialized Primarch. As in he is the one who had slave AIs during the Great Crusade.

There is no way for Vita to know this IC and our Psychic Shielding is going to draw attention to Vita and her allies. So I'd brace for impact from a Primarch who is literally jumping trough the Warp to stitch Imperium Nihilus back together. Hopefully he accepts the Ancient angle or we are going to have to spend a lot of actions to at best break even when the Lion shows up.

Voidseer said:
Really!?! I was only aware of some planets in the Halo stars that can un-exterminatus themselves. I was under the impression that while Demon worlds were overtaken by the Warp they sort of were still somewhat vulnerable to Exterminatus, just that it was also extremely dangerous for ships to try.
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That's complicated.

Cyclonic torpedoes and Phospex weapons of a high enough yield work, but the former has so much red tape that only Inquisitor Lords/Venerable Chapter Masters can use them and most Daemon Worlds are pulled into the Warp by the time the order is issued and the latter is something the Imperium can no longer build since the start of M40 because of Veriliad's actions.

Virus bombing is just a flat no as Amberley Vail explains in one of the Ciaphas Cain novels and the other methods of Exterminatus are just not potent enough to work. With the exception of a Penal World Generatorium overload, but those are not built on planets where the Imperium puts people it isn't planning to use as cannon fodder at some point.
 
Aineko said:
It can, though.

For instance, having a handful of Candles (or some other design) would be a very, very big advantage if a dangerous visitor shows up between then and when the bigger tranche of warships is ready. And they could any time now.

The thing is, we don't know when we'll face a threat. Purely optimizing for the final build means getting caught unprepared if we're checked before that final build.
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It can! But the potential we get attacked right now by some force large enough to take on the Spark, but which a couple of Candles can beat, is pretty small. You cannot defend every possibility; by doing so, you weaken yourself against the more likely threats.
Prime 2.0 said:
I am... not so hot on doing CCR&D without Anexa, though I see you have a boost on there. I should figure out my own pre-turn draft plan, honestly, but I want to get up early tomorrow so for all I know the turn will be here before I next get the chance, lol.

Oh, thanks!

Yeah, alright. I still think the point about containment measures likely being part of what we get from the study applies, but I'm more bullish on advanced materials than I was.

As for leaving with them or not though, we do have the option of the grot strategy: "Necrons might be that way, let's go the other way". Just head East.

...Granted, I do kinda want to see what's up to the west of us, because man that is a lot of nasty shit ready to head towards us, isn't it.
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My worry is less that we pass by that tomb world on accident and more that we pass by one of their ships, another (dormant) world, or something else like it.
Prime 2.0 said:
...Maybe the child/adult metaphor wasn't a great idea after all.

The more important part isn't age, but rather the ability to survive and thrive among a hostile galaxy. And to be frank... Ascalon isn't all there either, even if they've kept more institutional knowledge from the imperium.

The lost history thing is... yeah, I suppose I may have overstated things there, but "doesn't know what's supposed to be in the rest of the subsector" is still a smoking gun for a lot of basic knowledge being lost.

Either way, "not prepared to deal with the galaxy at large" is the problem I'm describing as why we still have to help, because as the crossroads system of the crossroads subsector, the galaxy at large is coming to them. That's why growth was in there, that's why experience took up so many words - these are the primary measures by which we can judge readiness to survive and thrive without our direct attention or support.

Warp comms stand to cut the gordian knot, at least a little, but this is realistically about Denva's situation being really, really unfair if not for Vita being there to provide cheat codes and the occasional backup. Denva cannot exist as an isolationist state. Their territory is too strategically valuable for that - they must get that skill and power applicable to galactic stage operation or they will be crushed by everyone else who wants to take it.
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Agreed on them not being able to exist alone. That is also true of Vorthryn and Calderath, our other friends. We should help them become friends and partners, as well. Maybe Primus, too!

That is actually a good point about Warp Comms—we can facilitate contact between them without anyone having to bring anyone else armed ships.
 
Have a little edited map to better see the incoming trouble.
Space Marines from the East.
Necrons from the North.
Demons from the South.
The West is a 2x Chaos, 1x Dark Eldar, 1x Asurany, 1x Orcs mess.

And Denva is the bottleneck for all of them.
 
Aura Dragon said:
@Dmol8 Not to mean any insult but.... where did you get that we would be fighting Lion? Nihilus is a pretty big area, did the QM drop hints about this that I missed?
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Shard said:
Primarch Lion seems very far out of the left field to show up. A deus/diabolis ex machina, if it were to happen now.
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We're not fighting the Lion if he shows up, it could be the Black Legion or some other broader galactic force, but we will know when the mid-game starts because the fragments we are currently encountering will stop simply laying around and start being integrated into the broader organizations we have in this Sector.

Lion is an option because he's been running around in M42 helping Dante reconnect the Imperium Nihilus into something coherent. He's not guaranteed, he's a yardstick for what the starting shot of the mid-game will look like to compare to.

I don't know what @Neablis has in store for the start of the mid-game, but the Lion showing up, squishing everyone on the side of Mankind into closer cooperation while purging corruption and then just moving on is one of the better outcomes for that. This is still 40k after all and we will have to deal with the grimdark more and more as this sector finds its feet in the wake of the Great Rift and the various factions start to spread.

We're still in the early game and if this were a 4x we would right now be repairing our largest city after a barbarian attack that occurred/came from the fog of war while we were building two more cities elsewhere on the map.
 
I'm making an Excel Spreadsheet to help with calculating designs. How granular should I go with the BP costs for voidships? I'll definitely need to use different scales for larger and smaller ships though.

Edit: Due to Neablis making some NPC ship hulls I've settled on:
Edit 2: Added Grand Cruisers.
- Destroyer: 7 Breakpoints of Interval 50.
- Frigate: 6 Breakpoints of Interval 100.
- Light Cruiser: 11 Breakpoints of Interval 100.
- Heavy Cruiser: 9 Breakpoints of Interval 500.
- Grand Cruiser: 13 Breakpoints of Interval 500.
- Battleship: No clue yet, but will probably switch to Interval 1000.
- No idea if we will be able to build ships bigger than BBs, or when we'd get to it.

Thoughts?
 
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I'm not sure why we wouldn't spend the maximum within one class for our fleet? It's the same command points cost, and quality over quantity makes sense for our fleet imo.
 
henkalv said:
I'm not sure why we wouldn't spend the maximum within one class for our fleet? It's the same command points cost, and quality over quantity makes sense for our fleet imo.
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.... Blame Neablis and the hulls they made. They are all either 50 or 100 BP less than the max. Plus in the future if we get to the point of optimizing ships for mass spamming then BP can quickly add up.
 
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