Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

SightUnseen · Friday at 7:54 PM

Prime 2.0 said:
Honest to god, I'm really contemplating doing a 3x research turn where we just buy the damn thing already, because the rampant sticker shock is hurting us and I think it's time to get it over with, absent a crisis.

... Not gonna lie, I would support this and put Anexa on it.

Glau · Friday at 8:11 PM

Angle said:
We have no sign of Orks being anywhere near us - The ones we hear about were several subsectors away, no closer than the chaos forces or the necrons.

Both space marines and craft world Eldar are several subsectors away, and we've run into them already. I don't think distance makes us very safe, in the end. It makes us harder to find, but there's dice rolls each turn for if and what stumbles into us.

Angle said:
Even without Bongo, they're very important, not something we can neglect.

Who is neglecting them? We are like six advances down that tech tree. Attacking power is also very important, and far more neglected.

Angle · Friday at 8:12 PM

Prime 2.0 said:
If it says it unlocks stuff, it unlocks stuff. If it doesn't, it's probably not foundational.

I'm gonna be real, I think the focus on "let's get a whole bunch of smaller techs because they're less expensive" kind of misses the point - it's not "number of techs" that helps us, it's the importance and applicability of techs that does.

It's not just about numbers of techs - each tech we unlock gets us more options and more discounts, and those can really add up. Last turn for example, we spent 665 RP on techs and got 1075 in discounts from them, by my count - so, effective tech prioritization can almost triple how far our RP goes. And more techs means a broader base of capabilities in general, and more ability to cherry pick out the more applicable and more important techs when we find them.

Prime 2.0 said:
"Hurt".

Pain.

What, exactly, was that pain? How did Vita get hurt, from behind our shields? What does that imply? A weakness that almost but not quite got exploited, possible because we directly connected? Something that actually did have some lasting, if minor effect that we haven't noticed?

And why hasn't Vita asked those questions herself since?

Until we take Intelligence coding, we don't know.

Just like we don't know if we'll actually score any discounts to intelligence coding in practice.

Just like we don't know what we're missing behind arguably the single most important tech category in the game until we nut up and take it.

I'm tired of not knowing.

In the immortal words of Boney, I want to finally try it and find out.

This is a good point though... I'd still like to work on warp knowledge and psy defenses, but it might be time to start trying to fit it into the budget. We'll have to see what else we have to juggle around, and remember it won't actually start providing direct benefits for a while yet, but we can start chewing on the problem at least.

Aineko · Friday at 8:23 PM

Glau said:
Both space marines and craft world Eldar are several subsectors away, and we've run into them already. I don't think distance makes us very safe, in the end. It makes us harder to find, but there's dice rolls each turn for if and what stumbles into us.

While, yeah, Ork, Chaos, or even 'nid ships are all probably capable of reaching Vita and/or Denva whenever, the trend so far has been for those to be small forces. I'd bet on Vita for total dominance vs. an ork raider in the light cruiser or escort classes, and not that much trouble even vs a full cruiser. (They're probably kunning enough not to pick a fight with a Grand Cruiser with such a small force, though.)

Prime 2.0 · Friday at 8:39 PM

Angle said:
It's not just about numbers of techs - each tech we unlock gets us more options and more discounts, and those can really add up. Last turn for example, we spent 665 RP on techs and got 1075 in discounts from them, by my count - so, effective tech prioritization can almost triple how far our RP goes. And more techs means a broader base of capabilities in general, and more ability to cherry pick out the more applicable and more important techs when we find them.

Believe me, I'm not ignoring the benefit of discounts - they just... don't apply that much to this case because there haven't been any so far and the only prospects are maybes rather than guarantees. I'd argue they fall under "importance and applicability", at any rate.

Sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet to get an important ball rolling. Opportunity costs versus long term efficiency are like that sometimes, it's part of what keeps a quest with a tech tree interesting.

Just to avoid any unnecessary panic, I'll note that Neablis's statements on outcomes with Bongo research early on preclude anything really nasty from happening because of that poor success in and of itself - but at the upper end of what's plausible while keeping his word is a small issue that could grow into a bigger one if left unaddressed, is my concern.

So, yeah. Let's try to get it this turn if we can, and pay down some of it if we can't. Flipside? Since Intelligence Coding is specifically Vita studying her own code, it should function as an initial sweep for problems in and of itself before even getting personality checking routines, similar to that 100RP we spent checking over our factories.

Just, uh. Yeah, would probably be a good idea to have Anexa on it when it completes, just in case an outside pair of eyes can see something the problem (if any) would rather we didn't see.

Angle · Friday at 8:44 PM

Prime 2.0 said:
Believe me, I'm not ignoring the benefit of discounts - they just... don't apply that much to this case because there haven't been any so far and the only prospects are maybes rather than guarantees. I'd argue they fall under "importance and applicability", at any rate.

Sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet to get an important ball rolling. Opportunity costs versus long term efficiency are like that sometimes, it's part of what keeps a quest with a tech tree interesting.

I'd still like to do LSMS first. Maybe get that one this next turn along with a bunch of other stuff, it can replace drugs in my short list from earlier, and pencil IC in for the turn after that?

Prime 2.0 · Friday at 8:47 PM

Angle said:
I'd still like to do LSMS first. Maybe get that one this next turn along with a bunch of other stuff, it can replace drugs in my short list from earlier, and pencil IC in for the turn after that?

We can get both even on a 2x research turn, so I don't see why we'd have to delay. Just have to treat it as a priority, that's all. See my edit to the last post - we probably don't actually need personality checking routines to diagnose any issues, since IC is already vita studying her own code.

Angle · Friday at 8:48 PM

Prime 2.0 said:
We can get both on even a 2x research turn, so I don't see why we'd have to delay. Just have to treat it as a priority, that's all.

But that means not getting anything else - and I don't think it's quite such a priority. I'm down for the turn after this one, but this turn I think we should focus on other stuff.

Prime 2.0 · Friday at 8:53 PM

Angle said:
But that means not getting anything else - and I don't think it's quite such a priority. I'm down for the turn after this one, but this turn I think we should focus on other stuff.

...I mean, no? We'd definitely be able to fit trip wires, and could get something else if that discount materializes. That's on a 2x turn anyways, as opposed to the 3x I'm thinking about.

Ultimately, the only reason we'd want to take LSMS right this moment is that potential discount. If other things are priority enough to consider delaying IC, then LSMS is what should get the cut - we're only likely to save 50 on a good roll, skipping LSMS saves 75.

As for most other picks, future utility isn't really "priority" material when weighed against Vita knowing she's clean and being able to improve her action economy. Priority over that has to mean things we badly want for immediate use.

It's opportunity costs versus long-term efficiency. In all likelihood the best time to have taken IC coding was several turns ago - the second best time is now.

Angle · Friday at 8:58 PM

Prime 2.0 said:
...I mean, no? We'd definitely be able to fit trip wires, and could get something else if that discount materializes. That's on a 2x turn anyways, as opposed to the 3x I'm thinking about.

Ultimately, the only reason we'd want to take LSMS right this moment is that potential discount. If other things are priority enough to consider delaying IC, then LSMS is what should get the cut. Nebulous future utility isn't really "priority" material when weighed against Vita knowing she's clean and being able to improve her action economy.

It's opportunity costs versus long-term efficiency. In all likelihood, the best time to have taken IC coding was several turns ago - the second best time is now.

I also want faith studies, MS CR, MSCPS, and MS Psytech. And I really don't think IC is something we need immediately, but I'm willing to commit to the next few turns just in case.

As for LSMS, I think it's actually a pretty big deal - it lets us start putting MS in shuttles, installations, and smaller spaceships, which means we can put them in most of the stuff we make. And just about everytime we research an MS technology, we find neat stuff hiding behind it, so there's that, too.

On the topic of that time though:

Neablis said:
Yeah, this is right. You're certain your ship didn't get hit by any scrapcode.

Not really. The psychic shielding protected you - but it still wasn't pleasant.

It seems it was purely cosmetic. Unless Neablis is lying to us, which I suppose might be reasonable when dealing with Chaos?

Edit: I don't think that's what happened. Honestly, I'm moving back towards 'We don't need IC right now, it can wait till we get back to Denva.

Prime 2.0 · Friday at 9:17 PM

Angle said:
I also want faith studies, MS CR, MSCPS, and MS Psytech. And I really don't think IC is something we need immediately, but I'm willing to commit to the next few turns just in case.

As for LSMS, I think it's actually a pretty big deal - it lets us start putting MS in shuttles, installations, and smaller spaceships, which means we can put them in most of the stuff we make.

None of those three MS techs remotely qualify as a priority under my criteria, to be honest.

Machine Spirit Psytechis an add-on for the utility of our champion who isn't yet ready to act in that role, so it only has utility in an emergency, especially if we don't get it with the psy hood tech.
- In such an emergency, machine spirit upgrades for our bots would be higher impact anyways, besides making "cia has to deploy" less likely in the first place.
- Being an entry of MS tech into the psytech field, we'd want Anexa on this when we do do it.
Machine Spirit Controlled Psychic Shieldsis mainly useful for saving BP on repairs after and producing psy shields we can export. But neither of those things are relevant to us right now because:
- This turn's travel repairs are already covered by the repair bay before the next vote, and we're likely to spend another turn in the destination system, so we can get MSCPS before we leave without getting it next turn and lose 0 BP.
- We just left the system so we won't be next to anyone we've vetted for trade yet. As I've discussed earlier, we have to be careful who we give psy shields to right now. We could vet them as part diplomacy during the next vote, and then if we think it's safe research MSCPS the turn after to make some for same-turn trade.
Machine Spirit Chaos Resistanceis of uncertain short-term utility absent also getting MSCPS - we're not traveling in the direction of the daemon world, and despite the nat 1 on immunity bongo is currently well secured.
- ...This is also something we'd really want Anexa on. But, she can only be on one thing a turn.

Faith studies is a maybe, but... also foundational, something we want Anexa on.

For the most part these are shinies, not priorities. They're cool, but none of them are urgent based on what we currently know.

Angle said:
It seems it was purely cosmetic. Unless Neablis is lying to us, which I suppose might be reasonable when dealing with Chaos?

Edit: I don't think that's what happened. Honestly, I'm moving back towards 'We don't need IC right now, it can wait till we get back to Denva.

Ah, so that's what I was forgetting. Thanks for digging that up.

Still, the stuff I pointed out above, about what the MS techs you were thinking of do and don't do for us short term - it's all still valid. We don't need any of those three MS techs right this moment, absent pressing new information we can get any of them the turn after instead and it'll make no difference.

And, well. "It still wasn't pleasant" still shouldn't have been possible from behind our shields. There is a mystery there, and I still think we should resolve it rather than waiting for it to become relevant again on its own.

"Waiting for denva" at least doesn't make a lick of sense to me since once we get back there we'll be focused on construction rather than research. We want the automation tree wide open before then!

Glau · Friday at 9:31 PM

Prime 2.0 said:
As for most other picks, future utility isn't really "priority" material when weighed against Vita knowing she's clean and being able to improve her action economy

This is a judgement call, and I disagree with it. Knowing she's clean gives us and her peace of mind, but the value of that as opposed to the forgone utility is minimal.

I'm really coming around to the idea that getting a mobile shipyard design ready before we get back to Denva is our best play. It lets us build hulls as we need them and reach the correct points on the text tree for them to be beneficial, as well as do things like upgrade armor or psyshields for a ship.

So I'd argue that warp tech (minus better gellar shields, probably) can wait until after Denva. A few more jumps will give us a few more data points on what weathering the warp is usually like, bongo is strongly caged, and I want to not be stuck in Denva forever again while we build a fleet there.

Shard · Friday at 9:38 PM

On my part I would advocate dismantling Bongo for research. Yes, Bongo unlocks stuff, but like, the Research tree is literally endless. We've likely upgraded our Scrapcode resistance to late-game ish levels of resistance by this point.

Angle · Friday at 9:41 PM

Prime 2.0 said:
Still, the stuff I pointed out above, about what the MS techs you were thinking of do and don't do for us short term - it's all still valid. We don't need any of those three MS techs right this moment, absent pressing new information we can get any of them the turn after instead and it'll make no difference.

At the moment though, *nothing* is truly a priority, unless something explodes in the turn Neablis is currently writing. Which means we have the chance to seek out longer term opportunities. To that end:

Prime 2.0 said:
Machine Spirit Psytechis an add-on for the utility of our champion who isn't yet ready to act in that role, so it only has utility in an emergency, especially if we don't get it with the psy hood tech.

In such an emergency, machine spirit upgrades for our bots would be higher impact anyways, besides making "cia has to deploy" less likely in the first place.

Being an entry of MS tech into the psytech field, we'd want Anexa on this when we do do it.

Machine Spirit Controlled Psychic Shieldsis mainly useful for saving BP on repairs after and producing psy shields we can export. But neither of those things are relevant to us right now because:

This turn's travel repairs are already covered by the repair bay before the next vote, and we're likely to spend another turn in the destination system, so we can get MSCPS before we leave without getting it next turn and lose 0 BP.

We just left the system so we won't be next to anyone we've vetted for trade yet. As I've discussed earlier, we have to be careful who we give psy shields to right now. We could vet them as part diplomacy during the next vote, and then if we think it's safe research MSCPS the turn after to make some for same-turn trade.

Machine Spirit Chaos Resistanceis of uncertain short-term utility absent also getting MSCPS - we're not traveling in the direction of the daemon world, and despite the nat 1 on immunity bongo is currently well secured.

...This is also something we'd really want Anexa on. But, she can only be on one thing a turn.

Faith studies is a maybe, but... also foundational, something we want Anexa on.

I think these are all foundational. The immediate benefits are nice but not amazing, but the longer term benefits? I think those are very promising - and they're vastly cheaper than IC. They would allow using MS to enhance two new, related, and very important categories of our techbase, and for barely more than half the cost of IC, while providing far more immediate benefit. And they don't just protect us in an emergency, they protect us everytime we make a warp jump, they protect Cia everytime she trains, and they help us progress towards warp comms and greater warp understanding in general.

Points about Anexa, but unfortunately, we simply can;t put her on all of them and I don;t think we should wait to try, so nothing for it.

Shard said:
On my part I would advocate dismantling Bongo for research. Yes, Bongo unlocks stuff, but like, the Research tree is literally endless. We've likely upgraded our Scrapcode resistance to late-game ish levels of resistance by this point.

I don't believe that for a second. We haven't even gotten the Psy Shield tech required for Warp Comms. IMO, the main utility of psy shields isn't even defensive - our warp sensors are integrated into them now, which means they serve as an important source of information and a means of furthering warp research in general.

That's one thing about the quest that I really enjoy - the way that it shows the unlimited nature of knowledge, how things can have unexpected importance, there's always more to discover, and things can feed back into each other in unexpected ways. Huge Kudos, @Neablis!

Angle · Friday at 10:07 PM

Anyway, gonna try and put together some longer term plans. Double posting on purpose and leaving things that way for once, because both my posts are already pretty big:

Angle said:
I really want to try and focus our efforts. I think our primary goals right now should be:

Finish exploring Ascalons neighbors and then return to Denva.

Develop Cia and support her properly.

Further protect ourselves against warp threats.

Wrap Bongo up for long term handling.

Further our understanding of the warp, and improve our ability to make use of it.

Develop Warp comms.

Develop machine spirits as a cheap way to boost the effectiveness of, like, all our tech.

Develop better sensors and get a handle on stealth tech, so the Druhkari are less of a problem in the future.

Angle said:
Once we get back to Denva, we're probably going to want to spend a few turns there. Some stuff I think we should work on then:

Vellkar Diplomacy

Access to superconductors

Begin uplifting Vellkar

Maybe see if they have anything else they want to trade?

They like trading, IIRC.

New Stellar Federation

Starting members would be Denva, Vita, and maybe the Vellkar.

Federation would be very loose, at least to start with.

Information sharing, research sharing, mutual defense treaties, maybe economic cooperation?

Research Pact

Part of the new Stellar Federation.

Make sure we have warp comms first.

Build shipyard, new fleet?

Not entirely sure what we want here, but odds are we want something.

Develop Technology:

Better Manufacturing

Better Spaceships

Better Cybernetics

Better Biology

Start work on growing Navigator?

Want better warp protections and understanding first, and cybernetics so we can do cognition filters, and biology so we can see to their health...

Add 'Develop IC' to the tech list in that second post. For specific turns, lets see:

-[] Psychic tripwires (25 RP)
-[] Faith is my shield? (75 RP)
-[] Machine Spirit Chaos resistance (100 RP)
-[] Machine Spirit-controlled Psychic Shields (50 RP)
-[] Psytech Machine spirits (100 RP)
-[] Drugs? Drugs. (75 RP) ?
-[] Improved Passive Stealth (50 RP)
-[] Basic Ground force stealth (50 RP)
-[] Basic Active Stealth (75 RP)
-[] Large-scale Machine spirits (75 RP) ?

-[] Personal-sized Psychic shielding (100 RP) ?
-[] Alternative Shielding Meanings (150 RP)
-[] Improved Void Abacus (150 RP)
-[] Psychic Encryption (150 RP) ??
-[] Psychic Shield Tuning (150 RP) ???
-[] Triple Nested Psychic shielding (200 RP) ???
-[] Empathy at Range (200 RP)
-[] Basic Psychic Amplification Devices (100 RP) ?
-[] Basic Psychic Suppression Devices (150 RP) ?
-[] Does in vitro have something to do with wine? (100 RP) ??
-[] Adult genetic engineering (100 RP) ??
-[] Dubious Dark Eldar Dissections (75 RP) ??
-[] Better Sensors are just Physics (200 RP) ??
-[] Combat Information Gathering (200 RP) ??
-[] Stuff that was unlocked last turn. ??
-[] Demonology (150 RP)
--[] Unless we want to wait to return to Denva and juggle vaults, or build a bigger one, or something?
-[] Explore Caldereth, if we haven't already.

-[] Whatever's left over ???
-[] Yelling into the Warp (200 RP)
-[] Abacus Manufacturing (100 RP)

-[] Whatever's left over ???
-[] Warp Comms (??? RP)
-[] Return to Denva.

More question marks means more reason to be skeptical and uncertain. A lot of these are probably going to get skipped - depending on how things go, we might want to just jump to Alternative Shielding Meanings and Empathy at Range this turn, and get Yelling into the Warp next turn, and the full warp comms the turn after that. There is a point to be made about just going for the goodies, I will admit. Though on the other hand, we don't need to have the warp comms finished until we *leave* Denva, so they can probably wait an extra turn or two... I think I will put down to start progressing towards them directly the turn after next though.

Aineko · Friday at 10:14 PM

Shard said:
On my part I would advocate dismantling Bongo for research. Yes, Bongo unlocks stuff, but like, the Research tree is literally endless. We've likely upgraded our Scrapcode resistance to late-game ish levels of resistance by this point.

At this point, the interesting thing Bongo unlocks is saving a large amount of RP on daemonology research.

I agree that grinding scrapcode resistance further is an unhealthy focus now.

Angle · Friday at 10:19 PM

Aineko said:
At this point, the interesting thing Bongo unlocks is saving a large amount of RP on daemonology research.

I agree that grinding scrapcode resistance further is an unhealthy focus now.

If it were only scrapcode resistance, maybe, but we can get a lot of birds with that stone. And after we do demonology, we might want to just ditch him, we'll see? We'll know more about demons and what the risks and rewards associated with them are, then.

sciencegeek · Friday at 10:22 PM

Angle said:
-[] Psychic tripwires (25 RP)
-[] Faith is my shield? (75 RP)
-[] Machine Spirit Chaos resistance (100 RP)
-[] Machine Spirit-controlled Psychic Shields (50 RP)
-[] Psytech Machine spirits (100 RP)
-[] Drugs? Drugs. (75 RP) ?
-[] Improved Passive Stealth (50 RP)
-[] Basic Ground force stealth (50 RP)
-[] Basic Active Stealth (75 RP)

-[] Personal-sized Psychic shielding (100 RP) ?
-[] Alternative Shielding Meanings (150 RP)
-[] Psychic Encryption (150 RP) ??
-[] Psychic Shield Tuning (150 RP) ???
-[] Triple Nested Psychic shielding (200 RP) ???
-[] Empathy at Range (200 RP)
-[] Basic Psychic Amplification Devices (100 RP) ?
-[] Basic Psychic Suppression Devices (150 RP) ?
-[] Large-scale Machine spirits (75 RP) ?
-[] Stuff that was just unlocked ??
-[] Demonology (150 RP)
--[] Unless we want to return to Denva and juggle vaults, or build a bigger one, or something?
-[] Explore Caldereth, if we haven't already.

I fully agree with these plans and thankfully a bit of room is left for new researches. But I feel we likely will be able to move a research or two up a turn if only due to the 80 on Basic Spaceship Stealth. That will probably discount the other stealth upgrades by 50-75 RP. Not to mention any discounts from each one we solve making the next cheaper. Not to mention that between Improved Gellar Fields, Machine Spirit Design, and Basic Pyromantic understanding, I would be shocked if none of the MS or psychic stuff gets a discount. Between those discounts, the tech priests and Anexa, I expect around 200-300 RP to move things ahead or do new research as needed.

Angle · Friday at 10:25 PM

sciencegeek said:
I fully agree with these plans and thankfully a bit of room is left for new researches. But i feel we likely will be able to move a research or two up a turn if only because we got a decent roll on Basic Spaceship Stealth and that will probably discount the other stealth upgrades by 50-75 RP. Not to mention any discounts for each one we solve making the next cheaper. Not to mention that between Improved Gellar Fields, Machine Spirit Design, and Basic Pyromantic understanding, I would be shocked if none of the MS or psychic stuff gets a discount. Between those discounts, the tech priests and Anexa, I expect around 200-300 RP to move things ahead or do new research as needed.

I'm really hoping so, yeah! Though we might have other pressing priorities that push things back down, it's hard to know how these things will go.

F0lkL0re · Friday at 10:33 PM

I'd like to research Heavy Armor Production Line, Armor Device Integration and Gravity Weapons since power armour and gravity weapons are pretty hot trade items but two items I think are very important to research before we return to Denva are Abacus Manufacturing and Improved Void Abacus.

EDIT: Also we should grab Basic Psychic Amplification Devices and Basic Psychic Suppression Devices for Cia

sciencegeek · Friday at 10:34 PM

Angle said:
I'm really hoping so, yeah! Though we might have other pressing priorities that push things back down, it's hard to know how these things will go.

With any luck the rolls Neablis did for this new system will lead to a relatively boring but harmless enough system other than whatever the 5 they rolled will be. Maybe even an uninhabited system with lots of ruins? (Probably too much to ask for)

btw is the plan at the moment visiting Vorthryn for a 1-3 turns then to Caldereth for a few more, back to Ascalon to scan the heck out of the webway (and maybe hack their databases), before a return to Derva? That seems to make the most sense to me with minimal backtrack for the most part.

Angle · Friday at 10:36 PM

F0lkL0re said:
I'd like to research Heavy Armor Production Line, Armor Device Integration and Gravity Weapons since power armour and gravity weapons are pretty hot trade items but two items I think are very important to research before we return to Denva are Abacus Manufacturing and Improved Void Abacus.

EDIT: Also we should grab Basic Psychic Amplification Devices and Basic Psychic Suppression Devices for Cia

Huh, we did say something about giving those to Denva when we got back, didn't we? I'll pencil them in.

Oh, and I'm looking at the Psytech options for the turn after the next one right now, though we'll see how things play out.

Prime 2.0 · Friday at 10:45 PM

Are we still thinking about leaving some RP free for the techpriests to play around with? I wonder what silly bullshit they'll do with that? Animal Cybernetics (2 RP), perhaps.

sciencegeek · Friday at 10:49 PM

Angle said:
Huh, we did say something about giving those to Denva when we got back, didn't we? I'll pencil them in.

Oh, and I'm looking at the Psytech options for the turn after the next one right now, though we'll see how things play out.

Yeah I was looking at them too. It's crazy how it's 1850 RP and yet I almost believe that with discounts we can get them all in one turn (mostly). Although I would point out Combat Neural Implants (50) is both cheap and says it opens an entire tree of combat tech which always gives more options. That along with Complex Psytech Implants (250) has some fun possibilities.

Angle · Friday at 10:52 PM

sciencegeek said:
Yeah I was looking at them too. It's crazy how it's 1850 RP and yet I almost believe that with discounts we can get them all in one turn (mostly). Although I would point out Combat Neural Implants (50) is both cheap and says it opens an entire tree of combat tech which always gives more options. That along with Complex Psytech Implants (250) has some fun possibilities.

I don't think it'll be quite that easy, but I'd like to start knocking things off, yeah. For cybernetics, we might want to wait until we get back to Denva? But on the other hand, it might be a good idea to start knocking out the cheap stuff regardless, I dunno. :/

Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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One and Many

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Officially not an Inquisitor

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