Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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Lord4StarCommand said:
I'm not sure if that would be a good idea because despite Roboute expressing regret he still thinks all those xenocides and xenophobia is "necessary" Cawl made an AI of G-man without his conset and an AI of himself even with brain juice and despite all his heretekicality he believes in God-emperor and the Imperium something even Fabius Bile called him out on.
Also, I have yet to hear of a Primarch taking a "No" for answer while they were busy in their Great Crusade without either killing, conquering, coercing or forcing the said "No" replier. I mean, what if Roboute ask Vita to make mass destruction weapons? What if he demands her to go genocide a xeno world just for being on the way or help him in forcing Imperial worlds in exhausting their reaources to make his Indominitus Crusade going?(that actually happened).


I be honest, if we gonna ally with a Primarch we have much better chance with Lion who no longer a fan of the Imperium and even thinks that if humans learned to coexist with xenos humanity would not have been in such a shitty situation.
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Hey to be fair to roboute, the Orks and Nids definitely need to go. Be nice if we could wean him off the rest of it.

I think your concerns would be valid if we put ourselves under his authority, but we don't need to do that. We can position ourselves as an external ally outside of his jurisdiction pretty easily and say "no lol" to things we don't want to do and as long as it's obvious we're not trying to fuck over humanity and it'd be more trouble than it's worth to beat us we should be good. Basically a Yvraine situation. Or a cawl one for that matter.
 
I think there's two reasons I'd like for us not to just go 'ugh, horrible tyranny' and pass Imperial systems by until we're big and strong to just force the issue.
1: In universe reason: I'm not sure how many Denva's we'll encounter. If we only are willing to meaningfully engage with non-horrible societies, we'll be very limited.
2 Out Universe reason: While Imperium bad, I also do very much enjoy reading about Vita having to engage with the Bad Imperium, smiling while going 'what the fuuuuuuuck' I want us to start dealing with them and start setting up subversive organisations, looking for powerful (and thus guilty) figures to turn through personal interest, blackmail or ambition. In order to do that, we need to accept that we'll be wheeling and dealing a lot with people that, yes, in the world we came from would all get tried for war crimes. And I think dismissing every high Imperial Official as too evil to be a collaborator will limit our options severely. Obviously, in some cases we'll just have to accept that someone ain't gonna be swayed, and a good case can be made that the Canoness is one of 'em. But if in the future we encounter someone similar to her, with a similar amount of blood on her hands, we'd still actively engage with them, and their society.
 
Lord4StarCommand said:
I'm not sure if that would be a good idea because despite Roboute expressing regret he still thinks all those xenocides and xenophobia is "necessary" Cawl made an AI of G-man without his conset and an AI of himself even with brain juice and despite all his heretekicality he believes in God-emperor and the Imperium something even Fabius Bile called him out on.
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Being fair to Roboute the version of him who thought 'xenocide was necessary' is one with next to no hope, it is one who looks upon the ruin of the Imperium and can see nothing but ignorance and darkness that he must fight alone. How would he react to a being even more ancient than him, one from a more enlightened time? Not I think with unthinking faith in the God Emperor, his conversation before the throne cured him of any notion that his creator loves or values him as a person. Would be hold the militaristic and xenophobic principles of the Great Crusade above the chance for something new?

I have no idea.

And because I have no idea I do not think we should meet with him until we have a hell of a lot more backing than we do now, 'Hundreds of allied AIs' worth of backing.
 
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chryssalideater said:
Basically a Yvraine situation. Or a cawl one for that matter.
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Except Yvraine never directly tried changing policies of human worlds, would Roboute not bat an eye if we say stop a Black Templar genocidal campaige on an abhuman civilization? Stopped a Deathwatch group from xenocidng an unsuspect xeno-human world? Killed a few Exterminatus-trigger happy Inqusitors? Overthrowing the abhorrent oppressive regimes of Imperial worlds for how inhumane they are?



Shogeton said:
what the fuuuuuuuck' I want us to start dealing with them and start setting up subversive organisations
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If we try that we should at least do that with radical elements not puritans and even then I mean likes of Xenos Hybris and Xenarites not someone idiotic enough to use Chaos-based weapons like Xanthism.
 
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Lord4StarCommand said:
Except Yvraine never directly tried changing policies of human worlds, would Roboute not bat an eye if we say stop a Black Templar genocidal campaige on an abhuman civilization? Stopped a Deathwatch group from xenocidng an unsuspect xeno-human world? Killed a few Exterminatus-trigger happy Inqusitors? Oveethrowing the abhorrent oppressive regimes of Imperial worlds for how inhumane they are?
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Help an Iconoclast civilization conquer all of Nihilus? (WIP, currently 1 star system)
 
Lord4StarCommand said:
Except Yvraine never directly tried changing policies of human worlds, would Roboute not bat an eye if we say stop a Black Templar genocidal campaige on an abhuman civilization? Stopped a Deathwatch group from xenocidng an unsuspect xeno-human world? Killed a few Exterminatus-trigger happy Inqusitors? Overthrowing the abhorrent oppressive regimes of Imperial worlds for how inhumane they are?





If we try that we should at least do that with radical elements not puritans and even then I mean likes of Xenos Hybris and Xenarites not someone idiotic enough to use Chaos-based weapons like Xanthism.
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I think we could give good reasons for doing them, and as long as they were pragmatic we'd have a chance at dialogue. That's just idle speculation though, best for Vita to get a read on the man first.
 
DragonParadox said:
They are less evil than the Eldritch Abominations that are Chaos if only because no human nor human institution can be as evil as that (not for any lack of trying on the IoM's part).
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Though the Drukhari do their damnedest to match Chaos in evilness.
chryssalideater said:
Anyway I think the imperium is neat and would like to diplomance them,make them allies in the fight against chaos, and reform them from the inside instead of declaring war on them.
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I'm gonna be real with you, reforming the Imperium from the inside is about as likely as trying to reform Nazi Germany from the inside. It's not really gonna work since the cruelty is the point.

Our best case scenario is how we dealt with the AdMech on Denva in trying to get followers from within, but even then in the end we had to murder most of the leadership and had to storm half of the Enclaves by force. And I fail to see how it will be much different for Ascalon.

If we want to change the government here to something less awful, an ocean of blood spilt is the price for putting down fascists. Though we can do subversive actions to reduce the amount of blood.
Glau said:
Corsair was raiding and looking to make a buck. Selling us out is a way to make a buck. I'm not doing to hold the dark Eldar 's actions against him, but I am going to believe he knew what he was sending our way unless we get other evidence.
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But it would arguably be in the Corsair's best interests to keep trading with us in the long term since we do seem like a reliable enough partner and there's plenty of other schmucks to rob instead of telling some Drukhari who are likely going to keep all the best stuff for themselves and only give him the scraps. And OOC, I doubt he would fuck us over like this on a crit success on our diplomacy check with him.

But we shouldn't take any option for certain until we actually talk to him again first.
 
chryssalideater said:
Yeah that is an issue I don't have a good answer for. Pragmatically it makes sense for us to align anti-imperium, I just don't want to miss out on fun content because of it. But uh, putting our lives and our crew mates lives at risk for said content isn't really a solid argument.
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On potentially missing out things by aligning anti-Imperium: Exploring is what Vita wants to do, so exploring is what we are bound to do for the whole quest. This includes Imperial polities, if we want to interact with them. Because I can see us keeping doing that even if we reveal Vita as an AI.

If the Imperium finds out... Well, pretending to be AdMech with a new ship, for example, would work. Alternatively, good enough stealth/teleportation/disguise-cybernetics/etc. would allow for us to hang around in Imperial star systems, and just send infiltrators to do our bidding. Black market trading, secretely turning a governor and/or the populance to our side, exploring a Hive to find archeotech samples? We should be able to do all that.

On risking our crew: this is literally what everyone on Vita's ship signed for. Exploring is dangerous business, safety and your life are not guaranteed. If you don't want it? They always had a choice to stay at Denva. These are people who want to keep exploring, even with the dangers involved.
 
BigBadBob7070 said:
I'm gonna be real with you, reforming the Imperium from the inside is about as likely as trying to reform Nazi Germany from the inside. It's not really gonna work since the cruelty is the point
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Cruelty is not the point. That's a lie the imperium tells themselves because to do otherwise would be to face how far they've truly fallen.

They should be more than this, but they've forgotten how to be anything else.
 
chryssalideater said:
Cruelty is not the point. That's a lie the imperium tells themselves because to do otherwise would be to face how far they've truly fallen.

They should be more than this, but they've forgotten how to be anything else.
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Even 30k Imperium is not much better with their psedu-cult of personality around big E in all but the G word, xenos at best were seen as second class citizens and they don't usually last(they sucked a xeno specie dry literally just to make Rejuvants) and for all their atheism they have a fricking crusade with supermacy/manifest destiny resolution taking worlds by force if they have to.

Cruelty may not have been the original point, but they sure as hell loved plastering their atrocities with blood and gold with typical colonial bs about how all worlds are better off under the Imperium, that it is for their absurd greater good and that Imperium is always right.
Their literal motto was "Conquest of Galaxy", Conquest is inherently evil.
 
Lord4StarCommand said:
Even 30k Imperium is not much better with their psedu-cult of personality around big E in all but the G word, xenos at best were seen as second class citizens and they don't usually last(they sucked a xeno specie dry literally just to make Rejuvants) and for all their atheism they have a fricking crusade with supermacy/manifest destiny resolution taking worlds by force if they have to.

Cruelty may not have been the original point, but they sure as hell loved plastering their atrocities with blood and gold with typical colonial bs about how all worlds are better off under the Imperium, that it is for their absurd greater good and that Imperium is always right.
Their literal motto was "Conquest of Galaxy", Conquest is inherently evil.
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Look what I'm getting at is that while in the real world the only way to beat fascism is with an ocean of blood in fantasy land where we're a super powered AI it'd be nice to be able to actually triumph without immediately devolving to the open warfare everyone else in the setting uses to get what they want.
 
Best thing I can see with the Empire is a combination of propping up and subverting. If the Imperium of Man collapses, the cost in lives would be unacceptable, but it's not like we can just convince Holy Terra to change their ways. But I could see a combination of supporting their efforts, while building up our own network of agents. Make them dependent on us, even as we slowly remove their ways of control. At higher levels getting Inquisitors 'on side', either by honestly convincing some Radicals, through method more questionable (blackmail, mind control, trickery) or even going full Cylon and replacing certain Inquisitors with refined copies. Take over industries here and there, and discreetly plant our Loyal Machine spirits, who work really well, and do a good job of fighting Orks and Tyranids, but all the while having a good idea with Imperial Guard Regiments, and which Navy Fleets will find their machine Spirit obeying your will above all else.
 
Shogeton said:
Best thing I can see with the Empire is a combination of propping up and subverting. If the Imperium of Man collapses, the cost in lives would be unacceptable, but it's not like we can just convince Holy Terra to change their ways. But I could see a combination of supporting their efforts, while building up our own network of agents. Make them dependent on us, even as we slowly remove their ways of control. At higher levels getting Inquisitors 'on side', either by honestly convincing some Radicals, through method more questionable (blackmail, mind control, trickery) or even going full Cylon and replacing certain Inquisitors with refined copies. Take over industries here and there, and discreetly plant our Loyal Machine spirits, who work really well, and do a good job of fighting Orks and Tyranids, but all the while having a good idea with Imperial Guard Regiments, and which Navy Fleets will find their machine Spirit obeying your will above all else.
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I honestly think we can get a decent amount of support by just demonstrating you don't have to be the worst person ever to get results. Show people they don't have to commit atrocities to keep themselves safe. But yeah we're still going to have to do some amount of subversion, there are absolutely certain people in the imperium who are cruel for the sake of it.
 
Lord4StarCommand said:
Even 30k Imperium is not much better with their psedu-cult of personality around big E in all but the G word, xenos at best were seen as second class citizens and they don't usually last(they sucked a xeno specie dry literally just to make Rejuvants) and for all their atheism they have a fricking crusade with supermacy/manifest destiny resolution taking worlds by force if they have to.

Cruelty may not have been the original point, but they sure as hell loved plastering their atrocities with blood and gold with typical colonial bs about how all worlds are better off under the Imperium, that it is for their absurd greater good and that Imperium is always right.
Their literal motto was "Conquest of Galaxy", Conquest is inherently evil.
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I would argue that the Imperium of 30K was vastly better than the Imperium of 40K not because the perpetrators of the Great Crusade were good, but because the modern Imperium is just so damn bad. Anything functional, even an authoritarian rolling campaign of genocide can't help but be much better.

To put it another way the 30K Imperium was like human Biel Tan, the worst of the Craftworlds. But even at their worst the leadership of Biel Tan do care about their citizens and even other Eldar, they will kill a million humans to save an eldar, but they will also save a million humans to save an eldar.

To most orthodox versions of the modern Imperial Faith hate is the point, death in the service of the Emperor is the point.
 
Hm, another thought for when/if we do start infiltrating. it's very likely that when we're looking for dissidents and malcontents who are willing to risk it all to work against the Imperium, we're gonna be fishing in the same waters as the Four, Tzeentch in particular. And while the Chaos Gods are monstruous, the people that follow them aren't always. And a lot of them have a lot of the networks and the institutional knowledge that we want. So at some point subverting Chaos cults to our own goal might be called for.
 
Our best foreseeable path for subverting the Imperium is, ironically, servitor tech. We can just replace leadership with android dopplegangers then.

However, the Imperium has survived shapeshifting aliens attempting that same kind of thing, as well as an implied high-grade cognition hazard/reality warping threat in the form of the Pale Wasting. The sheer scale and facetankness of the Imperium is what lets it get away with so much.

There is no one threat that could ever destroy the Imperium.
 
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Shogeton said:
Hm, another thought for when/if we do start infiltrating. it's very likely that when we're looking for dissidents and malcontents who are willing to risk it all to work against the Imperium, we're gonna be fishing in the same waters as the Four, Tzeentch in particular. And while the Chaos Gods are monstruous, the people that follow them aren't always. And a lot of them have a lot of the networks and the institutional knowledge that we want. So at some point subverting Chaos cults to our own goal might be called for.
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We have a tech (maybe line) to research and mitigate 40k's bizarre mutations.

Want very appreciative, very oppressed Imperials stolen from the jaws of chaos? Heal some mutants.

Won't get you terribly large numbers most places, of course, and they might remain socially handicapped in spreading the word depending on how their environment reacts to physical signs of mutation going away.
 
Aineko said:
We have a tech (maybe line) to research and mitigate 40k's bizarre mutations.

Want very appreciative, very oppressed Imperials stolen from the jaws of chaos? Heal some mutants.

Won't get you terribly large numbers most places, of course, and they might remain socially handicapped in spreading the word depending on how their environment reacts to physical signs of mutation going away.
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Oh yeah, that would be worth a ton of favor and not just with underhivers, though of course those are among the most common sufferers because they are driven to that life and also because undergives just have a lot of stuff that mutates people in there. But the thing is mutation is so reviled that it's one of the few things that can send someone plunging from the heights of Imperial power all the way to execution without recourse. There are a lot of nobles in the Imperium hiding scales under their collars or a third eye under a hat and even more of them doing the same to a child or other relative. Get to one of those with a cure for mutation and you basically have their loyalty for life.
 
meianmaru said:
And like Copperscale pointed out, Orks already have something like it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much samples of their tech might help us.
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Eh. If researching the warp, the land of nightmare logic, can actually get us useful things? Then I see no reason why a differently irrational magic framework would be any harder. It's not like 'demontech make sense, orctechs don't' is a rule anywhere.

Shogeton said:
If the Imperium of Man collapses, the cost in lives would be unacceptable, but it's not like we can just convince Holy Terra to change their ways.
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I was under the impression that it did collapse, about 250 years ago, and the cost in lives is ongoing.

There's maybe imperial successor states, but with the great rift and the vanished astronomicon there's no way for anyone to know if terra even still exists.
 
Ultimately, collapsing the Imperium and replacing it with something sane is a better plan than sustaining untold cruelty for eternity, even if it means a fuckton of people die in the short run.

BigBadBob7070 said:
I'm gonna be real with you, reforming the Imperium from the inside is about as likely as trying to reform Nazi Germany from the inside. It's not really gonna work since the cruelty is the point
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The Madokami 40k quest shows that it's hard for even a full-fledged descended goddess that is the Emperor's daughter to change things. We're making progress, mostly by effectively annexing every part of the government one-by-one with our cult, but it will inevitably come to blood at a point in that quest.

Either way, I don't want to get in bed with these evil assholes. Trade with, sure, friends of convenience, sure, but definitely not allying with them nor giving them stuff. There's only like 1 primarch I wouldn't be opposed to befriending.

I'd rather deal with Eldar, in truth. 40k is not the sort of setting where diplomacy wins the day. Is Vita the sort of person that can tolerate comical levels of evil? I doubt it.
 
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Hey @Neablis, is my write-in in this plan acceptable? Not sure how much an Explore action would work also as a Diplomacy action based on your previous statements, so tried to keep it very limited, with actual trade happening with a dedicated diplomacy action on the next turn. This would be purely about trying to catch / hire someone to catch / get information about Xylaris, and retrieve who and what she stole in the raid.

[] Plan: Woman of Fire and Steel
-[] [Free] Repair all Damage
-[] [Free][DATA] The Eldar. More specifically the ones you ran into just now. ...You are dreading what you will find when you open their files.
-[] Explore: Eldar Webway Gate at Oladeer
--[] Go after the Drukhari. If they have already escaped, try to find and hire a Corsair or Corsairs at the Webway Gate to bring you the head of Xylaris Moiryth, as well as the taken people and any stolen goods if they are retrievable. If this is not acceptable, try to buy information about Xylaris. Besides this, signal that you are willing to trade later for any kind of interesting technology (next turn Diplomacy action) after this issue has been solved. (Budget for Victan: 250 BP worth of trade goods, negotiable up to an another 250 BP of trade goods on top of that on the next turn).
-[] Research x3 (600 RP + 65 Anexa RP)
--[] Ok, maybe there's a point to medical school (45/50 RP -> 50/50 RP)
--[] Human Simulation Implants (150 RP)
---[] Anexa 65 RP
--[] Basic power armor (100 RP)
--[] Improved Armor Articulation (50 RP)
--[] Combat Neural Implants (50 RP)
--[] Better Sensors (200 RP)
--[] Improved combat Machine spirits (100 RP)
--[] Anexa active Action: Research
--[] Victan active action: Diplomat-Spy (Eldar Negotiations if available)
--[] Active Psyker improvement

EDIT: small edit to the write-in, clarifying going after the Drukhari as the immediate action
 
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Glau said:
I was under the impression that it did collapse, about 250 years ago, and the cost in lives is ongoing.

There's maybe imperial successor states, but with the great rift and the vanished astronomicon there's no way for anyone to know if terra even still exists.
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Locally speaking I would say that's at least somewhat true - though it's possible that factions like Knights of the Crimson Vigil have some distant contact.

Unless we're in a quite alternate history, the Imperial core is still there, though. Just...pretty far from here.
 
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