Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

Reader mode
Alectai said:
So, you're arguing that despite us rolling well on each attempt to loot Klyssar station, one of our loots will instantly break out and take over the base unless we do nothing but warptech research this turn? That it will iterate faster than we can even notice despite taking some paranoia level precautions, showing fundamental abilities far beyond what it displayed up until now, and we won't even be allowed to react to this happening until it's fucked something up beyond all possible salvaging? Unless we take your specific set of research or blow it up right now, apparently.

Then we might as well give up now, because we'll never, ever manage to beat Scrap Code or even be able to meaningfully resist it, because a single generator apparently has more RP and action economy than we do, when we spent huge amounts of energy buying up our protections and ability to iterate, and spent even further resources to make damn sure it wouldn't be able to instantly break out or call on power from outside.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The very idea that this thing is capable to research is dubious to me, it's a random chaos bug not a greater daemon of Tzeench. A random navigator house was able to keep it contained away from the station's machine spirits well enough for it to serve as a guard dog.
 
DragonParadox said:
The very idea that this thing is capable to research is dubious to me, it's a random chaos bug not a greater daemon of Tzeench. A random navigator house was able to keep it contained away from the station's machine spirits well enough for it to serve as a guard dog.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeah, like, this is genuine crapcode but it's not the top end shit, or Klyssar Station would be a pile of daemon flesh by now, and I refuse to operate on the assumption that Chaos is actually omniscient regardless of any of their claims to the contrary and set this thing up to sandbag because they knew Vita would intersect with it and give them an opportunity. (Yes, I know, Kairos is technically supposed to be omniscient, but the price he pays for that is having a 50% chance of being straight up fuckin' wrong because he believed in what his fake head was saying or thinking at any given time, which arguably even less functionality than someone who isn't all-knowing because at least half the time you won't be objectively wrong)
 
Alectai said:
So, you're arguing that despite us rolling well on each attempt to loot Klyssar station, one of our loots will instantly break out and take over the base unless we do nothing but warptech research this turn? That it will iterate faster than we can even notice despite taking some paranoia level precautions, showing fundamental abilities far beyond what it displayed up until now, and we won't even be allowed to react to this happening until it's fucked something up beyond all possible salvaging? Unless we take your specific set of research or blow it up right now, apparently.

Then we might as well give up now, because we'll never, ever manage to beat Scrap Code or even be able to meaningfully resist it, because a single generator apparently has more RP and action economy than we do, when we spent huge amounts of energy buying up our protections and ability to iterate, and spent even further resources to make damn sure it wouldn't be able to instantly break out or call on power from outside.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

RentingViewer said:
Where are you getting this? its outright mentioned that its much weaker now that its no longer in control of the station. At this point I think you invented your own head canon of what's happening while ignoring all the in character and oc evidence that refutes your point
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It was the 'worst' loot roll. And sure, it's weakened - but it's also probably less restricted, which makes it more unpredictable in the long term. And we were given a choice to throw it into the sun for a reason - that wasn't even offered for the robots or the navigator embryo. I don't think the odds are high, or the consequences are quite that drastic, but I do think there's like, a ~5% chance per turn of it managing to break out and cause us real serious problems - destroy a bunch of our stuff, kill some people, etc, etc. And given it's probably going to take use at least 2 or 3 turns to figure out how to handle it, I'd like to get started on that sooner, rather than later.

As for dealing with it, it seems relatively straightforwards. First, we get a proper basic warp understanding, and from there hopefully options for more thoroughly researching it, capping off with an action to properly destroy or imprison the daemon.

DragonParadox said:
The very idea that this thing is capable to research is dubious to me, it's a random chaos bug not a greater daemon of Tzeench. A random navigator house was able to keep it contained away from the station's machine spirits well enough for it to serve as a guard dog.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Alectai said:
Yeah, like, this is genuine crapcode but it's not the top end shit, or Klyssar Station would be a pile of daemon flesh by now, and I refuse to operate on the assumption that Chaos is actually omniscient regardless of any of their claims to the contrary and set this thing up to sandbag because they knew Vita would intersect with it and give them an opportunity. (Yes, I know, Kairos is technically supposed to be omniscient, but the price he pays for that is having a 50% chance of being straight up fuckin' wrong because he believed in what his fake head was saying or thinking at any given time, which arguably even less functionality than someone who isn't all-knowing because at least half the time you won't be objectively wrong)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It did research in the last turn, though. it figured out how to disable the kill switches in the bots Vita sent after it. Relatively minor, but given it did that in like, a day or two maybe, I think we shouldn't underestimate it.

I will also point out, we've been scattering Denva with soulless machinery - our bots, our manufactories, out shuttles, and all the tech we've been handing out. So the place isn't exactly the ideal environment to have scrapcode escape into.
 
Last edited:
Neablis said:
High-Energy Physics Research Lab (500 BP or 500 VBP, 100 CP) Will allow you to conduct research on more... excitable branches of physics. Maybe don't put it close to anything you want to keep. (Rolling a 1 while researching something here might turn out badly)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Would it be worth it to go for the High Energy Lab? I'm not sure we'll have the RP to spare to go for the High ENergy weapons, but there might be narrative effects to having one, and it'd be something else we could pass on to the Denvan's when we leave.
 
10ebbor10 said:
Note that 'probably" is something you made up, based on something you assumed with not a hint of evidence present in the narrative.
The scrapcode defense we saw was an improvised solution, something hastily plugged in, not a carefully constructed and warded installation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We did see that it seemed to get more creative and flexible after we unplugged it - that's when it disabled the kill switches for our combat bots. But on the whole, no, we don't know - and that should be cause for caution and concern, not carelessness.
 
Alectai said:
-[] [STATION] Yes, we've got to have faith. They have the tools they need to make this work.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Strongly opposed to this. We don't have to gamble the lives of everyone on the station - they'll have control of it anyways by next turn:
Neablis said:
edofthesquid said:
Hey Neablis can we explicitly set a timeframe on this? Or some sort of transition plan?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They'll probably figure it out in 5ish years. Basically the people who want to run it would just be observing everything working properly for that time, and be ready to take it over and be actually familiar with the systems.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They're rushing to colonize it right now. Subjecting tens or even hundreds of thousands of people to a 10% chance of dying in space when we can trivially avoid it? Anything with odds like that in real life is rightly called a death trap. Let's please take the safe option here.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, just having the station be dedicated to living space over industry is already a boost to diplomacy between the nations, we can afford to prioritise safety now they're actually on-site.
 
Honestly, what it boils down to is "We've got to let them take a chance eventually, and they'll be much more proud of it if they did it on their own. And we've got a lot of things we need to do still as well.
 
DragonParadox said:
Yeah sure any of the other paths could help address our issues, eventually with good rolls, this is actually addressing them now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No, that's exactly backwards. This is the basic research that opens up a new tech tree, I think. It will get us nothing until two or three investments in. Like the turns we spent on basic physics and basic bio. If we want to address things now, we take the options we've already unlocked.
 
Last edited:
Alectai said:
Honestly, what it boils down to is "We've got to let them take a chance eventually, and they'll be much more proud of it if they did it on their own. And we've got a lot of things we need to do still as well.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeah, but *eventually* can be next turn, not this one, which pretty much eliminates the chance of failure.

Glau said:
No, that's exactly backwards. This is the basic research that opens up a new tech tree, I think. It will get us nothing until two or three investments in. If we want to address things now, we take the options we've already unlocked.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The fundamental 'Warp Understanding' tech is locked behind the void abacus - and I think you're arguing for going after psytech, which is a grab bag of 'weird things you can do with the warp, with only as much understanding as is strictly necessary'. I have to put my vote towards warp understanding, personally.
 
Last edited:
Alectai said:
Honestly, what it boils down to is "We've got to let them take a chance eventually, and they'll be much more proud of it if they did it on their own. And we've got a lot of things we need to do still as well.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There's only even a roll for it if they take over this turn. We don't have to let them take a chance on this ever, we actually do have the option for a sure thing, for basically zero cost.
 
Angle said:
The fundamental 'Warp Understanding' tech is locked behind the void abacus - and I think you're arguing for going after psytech,
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Miniaturized warp shields was what I had in mind, actually- that and machine spirits. Both protect from chaos, both are things we really want to do before we build out our own ship, and we are very close to building both.
 
Glau said:
Miniaturized warp shields was what I had in mind, actually- that and machine spirits. Both protect from chaos, both are things we really want to do before we build out our own ship, and we are very close to building both.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ah, well I'll agree with machine spirits. Miniaturied warp shielding is pretty expensive though, and doesn't actually help shield us, only other people. I'd definitely prioritize the basic warp understanding, so we can be a little more confident we even understand what the problem is.

Also, we got an incredible amount of discounts for researching physics understanding - like, 450 points worth, for a 150 point research. If we get even close to that for warp understanding, then it's very much worth it.
 
Last edited:
Neablis said:
You're skimming over the design details, one last time when you get the idea to check what everything does. What's actually necessary for function and what's caused by stellar federation regulations that actually don't make any sense. Then you start taking things out. And keep taking things out. There are scanners on both the intakes and the outtakes that exist to provide paper trails on what goes in and what comes out. Don't need those. There's warning systems that automatically stop the whole machine if a trace if meat-like organic matter is spotted in the input, to make sure people didn't use the manufactories to dispose of bodies. You continue like that for a while, just yanking out everything that's dumb and unnecessary.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

While some of these are for sure pointless, I can't help but remember an old saying that safety rules are written in blood. Then again, in this galaxy running that ship yard 5% more efficiently is absolutely worth a lethal accident every year or two.
 
random_npc said:
While some of these are for sure pointless, I can't help but remember an old saying that safety rules are written in blood. Then again, in this galaxy running that ship yard 5% more efficiently is absolutely worth a lethal accident every year or two.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Mmm. I mean, I can see why they'd be worried about people using it to dispose of bodies... But there have to be so, so, so many easier ways to do that on Denva right now, and I expect there still will be for at least a couple hundred years, probably a couple thousand. :/
 
Prime 2.0 said:
Nah nah, you're thinking of personal shielding. Miniaturized shielding also has a follow-on tech for nested shielding, which could apply both to us, and to an upgraded vault.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well that sounds nice - but I bet it's gonna be *even more expensive*. So, we're talking at least three research actions just for better shielding, probably four or even five, versus the two to three research actions that could get us warp understanding and let us get our feet under ourselves - and maybe discount the shielding anyway. And also give us the void abacus, just to sweeten the deal.

And we already have shields on the thing. If it gets out, it might be because it overpowers them, but more likely it will be because it figures out how to circumvent them. Extra layers might help with that, but just as easily they might be circumvented the same way it figures out how to circumvent the first.
 
Last edited:
random_npc said:
While some of these are for sure pointless, I can't help but remember an old saying that safety rules are written in blood. Then again, in this galaxy running that ship yard 5% more efficiently is absolutely worth a lethal accident every year or two.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Also, our own manufactories are completely automated anyway. A lethal accident just means someone walked into the building while it was operating.
 
Angle said:
Well that sounds nice - but I bet it's gonna be *even more expensive*. So, we're talking at least three research actions just for better shielding, probably four or even five, versus the two to three research actions that could get us warp understanding and let us get our feet under ourselves - and maybe discount the shielding anyway. And also give us the void abacus, just to sweeten the deal.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oh, don't get me wrong, I want that warp understanding. Last turn I mistakenly thought we didn't have the other half of it, but now that I've realized that mistake and the abacus has been discounted, I am whole hog for that.

I'm just pointing out that we do have a pathway for improved shielding that's relevant to any plans to study the scrapcode generator. We wanted to do them to have more to offer the monastaries anyways, malware boy testing is just another item on the agenda for after that.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I want that warp understanding. Last turn I mistakenly thought we didn't have the other half of it, but now that I've realized that mistake and the abacus has been discounted, I am whole hog for that.

I'm just pointing out that we do have a pathway for improved shielding that's relevant to any plans to study the scrapcode generator. We wanted to do them to have more to offer the monastaries anyways, malware boy testing is just another item on the agenda for after that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I will agree to studying the psytech and going for better shielding - after we have warp understanding. Fundamentals first here too.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
Agreed.

Random aside, man I cheered when I saw the results for that physics roll.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeah, that was pretty good. I wasn't expecting anything close to that, especially after we got no discounts off the biology roll last turn. I suppose good successes get us a lot more than normal ones do. :/
 
Angle said:
Yeah, that was pretty good. I wasn't expecting anything close to that, especially after we got no discounts off the biology roll last turn. I suppose good successes get us a lot more than normal ones do. :/
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, the bio was 4 off from being a poor success and physics was 5 off from being a critical and neablis has made a point of adjusting for that before. It happens.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Back
Top