Victoria Falls Worldbuilding Thread

Russian mercs are in Central African Republic, not DRC, last I checked. Can I get a citation for Russian mercs in the DRC?
The Russians sell arms to everyone, and have since the Cold War.
They only just signed the agreement for basing in Sudan IIRC in the last year or two.


-Not likely.

Alexander is pushing a pivot to renewables. And unlike crude, natural gas cant be turned into industrial substrates for petrochemicals instead of being burned for fuel. He didnt nuke Middle Eastern production and Venezuelan production of fossil fuels so someone else could start up in a third world country. They touch those gas fields and he'll blow up the rig using proxies out of the Middle East. Or a sub.

-Like I pointed out upthread, Africa's consumption of fossil fuels of all types is tiny.
He's more likely to watch it be outcompeted by market forces (and the lack of spare parts for such machinery) than to expend the effort to actively shut it down. Or Katrina might have done it.


The GM did say that Africa was going to be left mostly on its own.

Russia is also dealing with the Middle East, the countries its invaded, and its efforts in South America to stabilize Brazil.
I mean, Alexander has Japan running amok in the Pacific because he cant spare the effort and resources to intervene there.
And India starts out with IRL 1.8x Russia's nominal GDP , which becomes 2.5x their GDP after adjusting for PPP.


Citation:

Russia and the EU are playing games up in MENA.
But subsaharan Africa is supposed to be relatively free of all that shit. Because most countries have limited resources, even superpowers.

Source for Russian mercs in the DRC: The 'Hybrid' Role of Russian Mercenaries, PMCs and Irregulars in Moscow's Scramble for Africa
"Russia sells arms to everyone" is not, to my mind, a counter to my point. Russian arms exports are a valuable lever for the country to exert influence, and are likely to remain so, if not become even more important, in a period where the Long Peace has collapsed and massive uncertainty is the norm. Russia sells arms to "everyone", "everyone" includes African states, last I checked, including states with the potential to become significant regional hegemons. Like Ethiopia. Or Sudan, for instance, where Russian basing still matters even if it's only a couple of years old. It points to the fact that Russia has retained relationships with several African states well beyond Angola, going back to the Cold War and earlier. And it is a springboard from which Russia can exert further influence in Sub-Saharan Africa which, as I pointed out earlier, any competent aspiring global hegemon would want to do, especially with Africa taking on dramatically increased prominence in world affairs and the global economy.

Alexander pivoting to renewables almost certainly means greater involvement in natural gas as an intervening stage, especially for countries which cannot initially afford massive expenditures on clean energy. There is existing infrastructure for fossil fuels in many, many countries who will still have to keep the lights on during the Great Transition: natural gas is the cleanest of the fossil fuels and also remains valuable for, say, fueling cargo ships and the like, as a cleaner alternative to straight bunker fuel or diesel or what have you, while the considerable technical challenges inherent with getting an electric-powered vessel to be reliable and economical. Natural gas is also still useful as a chemical feedstock in various ways. Simply "blowing up the rig with a submarine" is assinine in its potential to create vastly more environmental problems than it would solve. Africa's consumption of fossil fuels is tiny in comparison to the global market, but this is also because Tanzania and many other African states still struggle with providing steady access to electricity. An Africa which has urbanized and had massive increases in living standards is certain to have vastly higher demand for power. And the European states still need fuel to power their own cities and industries and don't exactly have the time or money for wind parks or solar farms. LNG remains useful in the Quest's present day even if Alexander has finished his big renewables pivot, which he has not. Over the fifty or so years between the fall of the US and the beginning of the Quest? NatGas would almost certainly remain a relevant strategic resource.

Russia's prior presence in Africa, and the immense value of Africa's resources and consumer base, to me speak to Russia holding on in Africa far longer than it could hope to hold on in, say, the Pacific. Again, Russia would not be the sole player here, and I have never argued that it would be. India would also be involved, as would China, but Russia is a definite player here. There would at least be a period while Africa is finding its feet where the various African states cannot afford to turn away investment from anyone, let it be India, China or Russia. Russia can be an active and involved player without committing to full-on military adventurism: it has other levers to influence the various states, not least of which is the fact that it is now the new arbiter of the global economy which Africa is selling its resources and products into. Again, this does not mean that Russia will still be dominant in the 2070s, but it will undeniably have influenced the trajectory of the various African states, especially the areas where it is directly involved like Libya, the DRC, Ethiopia (one of the strongest contenders for a major African power, by the way) and Sudan.

The whole point of this worldbuilding exercise to help Poptart flesh out and expand on what was by their own admission a very brief and barebones summary of global affairs. I think I have enough evidence behind my arguments to justify updating two sentences. And if we want to get technical, Russian is Eurasian, not strictly European.
 
The common experience of British colonialism is a not terrible basis for the EAF, and it doesn't have to be an enemy of Russian neo-imperialism- it could be a Russian ally or a Russian "ally" a la Brazil.
So you think Tomorrow I'm gonna try the EAF again with a bit more tact.

Also I think the EAF have some level of protection going off of the Enviormentalist angel.

They have the Serengeti ecosystem and throwing that out of whack might have consequences if not managed.

So best not intrude on that.

And given Poptart said Sub Sehara is not being intruded on, that opens an interesting avenue for me an writing.
 
The common experience of British colonialism is a not terrible basis for the EAF, and it doesn't have to be an enemy of Russian neo-imperialism- it could be a Russian ally or a Russian "ally" a la Brazil.

I'm afraid that it is a terrible basis, because at least two of the states involved (Rwanda and Burundi) have far stronger connections with Belgian colonialism and Francafrique. If a shared experience of colonialism were a good enough binding agent to overcome massive political, ethnic, linguistic and economic hurdles in creating a united entity, then many, many more superstates would exist across much of the world. In what universe is colonialism a good argument for a force to bind Africa together?
 
Anti-Colonialism is what bound people, bound tribes and once bound people.

I would like to think one of the strongest unifying forces that Africa might have in the wake of the collapse is the feeling of NEVER letting another forgien power take their land and resources again.

Entire movements, political parties and ideologies have devoted themselves to getting the colonizers out. Pan Africanism...among others.

Should the right leadership, not "Right" like the Russians want but right as in smart, you could use the rhetoric to make something happen.

Its been used by African nations before and I'm sure it will be used again for something during that time.
 
Entire movements, political parties and ideologies have devoted themselves to getting the colonizers out. Pan Africanism...among others.

These existing nations also formed out of anti-colonial struggles. They've got nothing to prove to their people in terms of anticolonial chops. They can simply point to their histories. Pan-Africanism failed as an ideology precisely because it ignored the reality of the situation, which is that a shared experience of struggle under colonialism does not erase the very real cultural and linguistic differences that existed long before the Europeans scrambled for their first colonies. To my mind, telling a story where Africa still defines itself mainly through the lens of colonialism, even anti-colonialism, even after becoming a major power in its own right, is both deeply sad and far less interesting than a variety of different states in different circumstances carefully finagling their way through a complicated web of domestic politics and playing sponsors against each other to attain independence and prosperity.

To be blunt, I think the EAF concept is gaining a lot of traction because it is more convenient for a crowd with a passing knowledge of African affairs to simply clump the East African community of states together into one big mass rather than telling the stories of Kenya, Rwanda, Tanzania et al. individually. Doing so would completely ignore their tangled and complicated histories including everything from war and genocide to trade and tribal boundaries. The EAF failed in the 1960s, when Pan-Africanism was at its height and the anti-colonial struggle was fresh, in many places still ongoing. It has stalled almost completely in our present day, and is far more based on economic factors like the East African Customs Union: a customs union, by the way, which still has many, many internal barriers and lacks even the EU's single currency, hardly a lasting basis for such a sprawling and contradictory political entity, an entity which would require many dictatorships and one very flawed democracy to relinquish control over their own spheres of influence for... What, exactly? A slightly-less-doomed effort to fight off a country offering them things that all of the member states badly need which could still curb stomp all of them with comical ease?

As trite as it may sound, we need to think bigger than the EAF. Africa is a complex continent with extraordinary diversity of language, ethnicity and history. We should look for better solutions than latching on to convenient measures to fill in the blanks regardless of their actual feasibility or the near-total lack of political support from the nations involved.
 
We should look for better solutions than latching on to convenient measures to fill in the blanks regardless of their actual feasibility or the near-total lack of political support from the nations involved.
Indeed, I'm only using it as a starting point for a possible idea of what happened.

Really the only reason I'm seeing the EAF exist long term is to protect their water, because the Water Wars in Africa are at least something I've been looking into for a bit, but I'm still reading into nuances.

If there is Two things I've at least touched upon that makes any bit of sense in the last several hours in my ramblings is...

Water security is the key to long term survival due to its use in agriculture and industrialization.

He who controls water controls africa...

really the only surprising thing about all of this is that Egypt isn't a puppet of Ethiopia because of Ethiopia daming up more of the Nile and having a leash on the water supply.

Here's a link to one of the things that made me look into it.
(I know its a bit old.)
 
I'm afraid that it is a terrible basis, because at least two of the states involved (Rwanda and Burundi) have far stronger connections with Belgian colonialism and Francafrique. If a shared experience of colonialism were a good enough binding agent to overcome massive political, ethnic, linguistic and economic hurdles in creating a united entity, then many, many more superstates would exist across much of the world. In what universe is colonialism a good argument for a force to bind Africa together?

Doy, I somehow forgot that Rwanda and Burundi were Belgian protectorates. Mea culpa.

I do maintain that a shared experience of colonialism is a "binding agent to overcome massive political, ethnic, linguistic and economic hurdles" because we do have a number of "superstates" across the world. India is the most obvious, Indonesia is another, South Africa with 35 indigenous languages is a third. All three of those states are major examples of countries using a common colonial experience to unify extremely diverse populations, and all three have been largely successful.

They're also not the only examples, just the ones that came to mind.
 
It is worth recalling that, even before the American Collapse, Russia endured its own period of civil strife, culminating in a military officer assuming control and declaring himself Tsar.

That is an all-hands-on-deck situation. The military and quasi-military presences Russia maintains in Africa would not have remained. Even once that upheaval ended, Alexander had many further priorities.

Russia came out of its troubles earliest, per quest canon, but by no means did it miss them entirely. They are working with as blank a slate as anybody else — and in the run-up to the Collapse and throughout it, Alexander is busy laying groundwork in the Middle East, China, North America, the Baltics, Ukraine and Belarus, the Balkans, Europe, Japan, India...
 
Indeed, I'm only using it as a starting point for a possible idea of what happened.

Really the only reason I'm seeing the EAF exist long term is to protect their water, because the Water Wars in Africa are at least something I've been looking into for a bit, but I'm still reading into nuances.

If there is Two things I've at least touched upon that makes any bit of sense in the last several hours in my ramblings is...

Water security is the key to long term survival due to its use in agriculture and industrialization.

He who controls water controls africa...

really the only surprising thing about all of this is that Egypt isn't a puppet of Ethiopia because of Ethiopia daming up more of the Nile and having a leash on the water supply.
Here's a link to one of the things that made me look into it. (I know its a bit old.)

It's not quite as simple as water, to be blunt. East Africa is not as likely to be affected by the water wars, and if anything the stresses of a water crisis would be far more likely to drive the EAF's nations apart than pull them together, because they are already generally somewhat suspicious of each other and have violently clashed over resources and other issues before.

"He who controls water controls Africa" is not the key to the continent. It is a highly reductive way of looking at the relations between African states and the challenges that those states face. The Congo River has also not been factored into this assessment: one of the largest rivers in the world, with a drainage basin that isn't going anywhere and is nearly impossible for a single power to block. Several would-be EAF powers are also sitting directly on the African Great Lakes. South Sudan could reasonably get sucked into the Ethiopian-Egyptian conflict over the Nile.

Because Ethiopia building a dam has not made Egypt a puppet and will not make Egypt a puppet. Egypt will die before it lets Ethiopia dominate the Nile. It may well have done exactly that in the intervening years since the US Collapse, or be gearing up to fight Ethiopia in the Quest's present day should they revisit the idea of a dam. Water becoming more scarce does not tend to trigger unity, but rather bitter conflict, and East Africa's geography and access to different sources of water than the much-contested Nile means it is unlikely to be dominated by the question of water, let alone be so desperate to secure access to water that it ignores the aforementioned history of political, economic and military conflict to unite.
 
Doy, I somehow forgot that Rwanda and Burundi were Belgian protectorates. Mea culpa.

I do maintain that a shared experience of colonialism is a "binding agent to overcome massive political, ethnic, linguistic and economic hurdles" because we do have a number of "superstates" across the world. India is the most obvious, Indonesia is another, South Africa with 35 indigenous languages is a third. All three of those states are major examples of countries using a common colonial experience to unify extremely diverse populations, and all three have been largely successful.

They're also not the only examples, just the ones that came to mind.

All three of these nations have endured considerable ethnic strife and internal division. Partition, a series of civil wars and Apartheid and its still-contentious aftermath are not models of harmony in themselves, and more to the point all three of these nations had very different experiences of what we broadly label "colonialism". I don't think this alone is enough to overcome the mountain of evidence that the EAF is a pipe dream today, and if it did come into being would be a Frankenstein-esque monstrosity riddled with internal divisions and contradictions for very questionable gain.
 
"He who controls water controls Africa" is not the key to the continent
Ahh, I understand, I'm sorry about all of this, my forte of geopolitics is based partly on the three basics. Mineral Wealth, Water and Food. Super Basic, not very good for advanced geopolitics
if it did come into being would be a Frankenstein-esque monstrosity riddled with internal divisions and contradictions for very questionable gain.
Ahh...so like a lot of the worlds other mad ideas that may or may not work until we see what happens and then decide weather it was a good idea to try at all.

Being a History major makes me think like this...by god humans never learn
 
The common experience of British colonialism is a not terrible basis for the EAF, and it doesn't have to be an enemy of Russian neo-imperialism- it could be a Russian ally or a Russian "ally" a la Brazil.
One thing I forgot to mention:
Francophone Africa is an area where France still wields significant foreign influence.
West and Central Africa. Military basing, defense cooperation agreements et cetera.

They even retain control of their currency; the West African CFA franc and Central African CFA franc are guaranteed by the French Treasury and were pegged to the French franc, and now to the euro.
Not an economist, but economists say that has not been economically advantageous to the saidcountries.

Given Russia's intentions vis a vis French power, they arent exactly going to be overly distressed by local arrangements arising in the aftermath of French civil unrest.

Thank you.

"Russia sells arms to everyone" is not, to my mind, a counter to my point. Russian arms exports are a valuable lever for the country to exert influence, and are likely to remain so, if not become even more important, in a period where the Long Peace has collapsed and massive uncertainty is the norm. Russia sells arms to "everyone", "everyone" includes African states, last I checked, including states with the potential to become significant regional hegemons. Like Ethiopia. Or Sudan, for instance, where Russian basing still matters even if it's only a couple of years old. It points to the fact that Russia has retained relationships with several African states well beyond Angola, going back to the Cold War and earlier. And it is a springboard from which Russia can exert further influence in Sub-Saharan Africa which, as I pointed out earlier, any competent aspiring global hegemon would want to do, especially with Africa taking on dramatically increased prominence in world affairs and the global economy.
Russian arms sales post-Soviet Union have been primarily aimed at economic return on investment, not like the more strategic positioning that the Soviet Union engaged in.
I wouldnt read anything into the Ethiopian arms sales; they tried to buy nuclear missiles from France first.

Sudan has been effectively diplomatically isolated for years.
Picking up a naval base there is as much about Sudan trying to break out of its Gulf State foreign policy box links post-Bashir than any Russian links.
In the post-Collapse Middle East where they have basing from Syria to Yemen, not really the coup it seems.

Alexander pivoting to renewables almost certainly means greater involvement in natural gas as an intervening stage, especially for countries which cannot initially afford massive expenditures on clean energy. There is existing infrastructure for fossil fuels in many, many countries who will still have to keep the lights on during the Great Transition: natural gas is the cleanest of the fossil fuels and also remains valuable for, say, fueling cargo ships and the like, as a cleaner alternative to straight bunker fuel or diesel or what have you, while the considerable technical challenges inherent with getting an electric-powered vessel to be reliable and economical. Natural gas is also still useful as a chemical feedstock in various ways. Simply "blowing up the rig with a submarine" is assinine in its potential to create vastly more environmental problems than it would solve. Africa's consumption of fossil fuels is tiny in comparison to the global market, but this is also because Tanzania and many other African states still struggle with providing steady access to electricity. An Africa which has urbanized and had massive increases in living standards is certain to have vastly higher demand for power. And the European states still need fuel to power their own cities and industries and don't exactly have the time or money for wind parks or solar farms. LNG remains useful in the Quest's present day even if Alexander has finished his big renewables pivot, which he has not. Over the fifty or so years between the fall of the US and the beginning of the Quest? NatGas would almost certainly remain a relevant strategic resource.
Russia is the largest LNG producer post-Collapse with the US and Canada gone.
Alexander's primary means of exercising economic pressure post-Collapse, of compelling other countries to move to renewables, is his control of most of the worlds fossil fuel production post-Collapse, both in Russia and the Middle East. Why would he want someone new to start up production?

Blowing up the rig(s) that's prospecting before it starts any production is not a particularly difficult concept for Russian Intelligence to master.
Especially given the expense of investing in petroleum mining, and what probably happened to most oil companies in this TL during the Collapse.

Russia's prior presence in Africa, and the immense value of Africa's resources and consumer base, to me speak to Russia holding on in Africa far longer than it could hope to hold on in, say, the Pacific. Again, Russia would not be the sole player here, and I have never argued that it would be. India would also be involved, as would China, but Russia is a definite player here. There would at least be a period while Africa is finding its feet where the various African states cannot afford to turn away investment from anyone, let it be India, China or Russia. Russia can be an active and involved player without committing to full-on military adventurism: it has other levers to influence the various states, not least of which is the fact that it is now the new arbiter of the global economy which Africa is selling its resources and products into. Again, this does not mean that Russia will still be dominant in the 2070s, but it will undeniably have influenced the trajectory of the various African states, especially the areas where it is directly involved like Libya, the DRC, Ethiopia (one of the strongest contenders for a major African power, by the way) and Sudan.
Its worth remembering that many of said resources and raw materials are things that new African production would be competing with domestic Russian production for marketshare.
The consumer base is still developing.

And Russia does not have infinite resources to invest everywhere, something thats been explicitly called out.
Dude brought Japan and India onside for a reason, and its not generosity or appreciation of their culture.

Its not about turning away investment and more needing to find it internally because financers are not exactly falling over themselves to throw money at developing countries in the midst/aftermath of the Collapse.
Thats what happens when people blow up the world financial system.

The whole point of this worldbuilding exercise to help Poptart flesh out and expand on what was by their own admission a very brief and barebones summary of global affairs. I think I have enough evidence behind my arguments to justify updating two sentences. And if we want to get technical, Russian is Eurasian, not strictly European.
There's a reason I asked what the desired endstate is, and the conditions.

Russia has always been treated as a European country in geopolitics.
The bulk of its population is in Europe, as is the bulk of its economic activity.
It was one of the European countries involved in Angola and Ethiopia and Somalia.

If I refer to North American countries, that doesnt exclude the United States because Hawaii and Puerto Rico exist.
 
Ahh, I understand, I'm sorry about all of this, my forte of geopolitics is based partly on the three basics. Mineral Wealth, Water and Food. Super Basic, not very good for advanced geopolitics

Ahh...so like a lot of the worlds other mad ideas that may or may not work until we see what happens and then decide weather it was a good idea to try at all.

Being a History major makes me think like this...by god humans never learn

Ah, it's no worries buddy. In a lot of cases you'd be right, and access to these things is heavily influenced by access to these basics, to be sure. It's just not the be-all end-all of East Africa, in my opinion, and I feel like falling into "cherchez la eau" as the means to understand a massive and diverse continent can often obscure as much as it reveals. I'm sure your expertise would be quite helpful for determining how the various East African states go about seeing to their mineral resources and the like, especially since arable land is often in surprisingly short supply for such beautiful countries... And as for water, well, one area that is crucial for the Congo Basin is the DRC, which Rwanda, Burundi and several other African states have intervened in multiple times before. I'm sure you can see where this might be going.

As for humans never learning, well, an East Africa without an EAF still has a route to independence and prosperity, even if it's probably different for each country. I still want to tell a positive story about Africa freeing itself from colonialism and neocolonialism alike: I just think that it's important to respect the different circumstances across the continent which are often very different from what Western media depicts, and I feel like the EAF somewhat undermines that. And wouldn't you know it, I'm doing the same major!
 
And wouldn't you know it, I'm doing the same major!
A fellow member of the Club of History Majors

"We learn the History of Man, so we can watch other people keep making the same mistake and write it down...so we can complain about people not learning"
and I feel like the EAF somewhat undermines that
Well I think in any case its a possible idea that, even if its a pipe dream, holds respect in my heart that they are doing as well with the idea as it is, its got a lot going for it in terms of possibilities of what could or couldn't happen.

Even if it doesn't work, it could lay the groundwork for something that will, even if its something like a common defence treaty or something like the EU's predecessor.

Even if it fails, they might get something out of it in the long term that will work out.

At least the experience of trying it will give them a "What not to do" list, and that's invaluable to any nation.
 
Looking at sub-Saharan Africa in particular, we still need to remember that the Collapse was just that, a collapse, which utterly decimated industrialized nations and with them global trade for a non-negligible amount of time. Most of the post-colonial state apparatuses in that region are heavy resource exporters, whether that resource be oil, copper, cocoa, etc. Those states are all probably going to be screwed when trade, and the money that comes with it, dries up.

Because of this, the main effect that I see the Collapse having on sub-Saharan Africa is the final collapse of the old system of colonial borders. Most modern African states are a patchwork of different languages, ethnicities, and tribes. Since the fall of colonialism, they have been held together by international norms (we generally don't just let states break apart nowadays), power (we're staying together or I kill/imprison you), and patronage (I'll give your tribe or tribal leaders a ton of money or privileges to stick around). With the onset of the Collapse, international norms no longer exist, the money that enables patronage dries up, and the only remaining lever to keep these states together becomes naked power. Outside of a few glaring outliers (Egypt for example), national identity isn't a big source of cohesion.

This means that apart from some countries that go full authoritarian police state, most of the state governments will probably cease to exist when the patronage that is their reason for being goes away. The people as a whole will probably be fine, but the states themselves will fracture. It's at this point that things really become interesting, because African groups and peoples can then grow, fail, be destroyed, ally, and form their way toward modernity organically, in much the same way that the small states and ethnic groups of Europe did.

Unfortunately, these organic evolutions would be almost impossible to predict, so prediction on that level isn't much help to us. But when putting together what we think a realistic sub-Saharan Africa would be like, it means that we have to discard most of the continent's modern political framework. Instead, geography, ethnicity, and religion will probably be the main signposts to tell us where the future lies. To take the EAF as an example, it probably isn't a thing because of both the groups' diverging interests, and because of the Kenyan highlands posing a massive geographic barrier in the center. However, you might instead see an alliance or federation of groups around Lake Victoria instead, all trading with each other. They might even be allied with someone who has maintained control of a seaport, and maintained transportation links inland. On the other hand, conflict and displacement of different peoples could happen as well.

I think sub-Saharan Africa will really be interesting, if only because it's people finally get to decide what to be on their terms.
 
Purely in regards to Alexander sabotaging fossil fuel industries...

Remember that one of Alexander's great sources of power is his own positive control over fossil fuels. Simultaneously, he's destroyed or rendered inoperative much of the world's fossil fuel output in a short amount of time, in a very uncontrolled manner... Even as he himself has powerful allies that he needs for his strategy to work (India, Japan) that themselves depend on oil imports.

As such, it is entirely reasonable for him, in the 2030s and '40s, to have been seeking to expand the production of fossil fuels under Russian control in certain regions of the world. Always with the awareness that having his hand on the "tap" would enable him to close off the supply later or manipulate prices, of course.

Doing this gives him economic resources he can parcel out to allies that will prop up his powerbase within Russia, and allows his allies to access the fuel they need without giving those allies incentives to separately and independently prop up oil producers outside the Russian spheres of influence. The last thing Alexander needs is, for instance, his good buddies Japan and India trying to go to some place Alexander wrecked (like Venezuela) and rebuilding the place because they need more oil and/or gas than he's willing to supply them with.

Well I think in any case its a possible idea that, even if its a pipe dream, holds respect in my heart that they are doing as well with the idea as it is, its got a lot going for it in terms of possibilities of what could or couldn't happen.

Even if it doesn't work, it could lay the groundwork for something that will, even if its something like a common defence treaty or something like the EU's predecessor.

Even if it fails, they might get something out of it in the long term that will work out.

At least the experience of trying it will give them a "What not to do" list, and that's invaluable to any nation.
It is worth remembering that international unification into big federation-blobs doesn't actually seem to be a common trend in the modern world. The closest we see to that is the EU, and there's a lot of stuff going on in the EU that isn't going on elsewhere, to the point where I don't think we should view the EU as a clear trend in a certain direction.
 
Because of this, the main effect that I see the Collapse having on sub-Saharan Africa is the final collapse of the old system of colonial borders.
*stares at Burundi and Rwanda*
Doubt it.
No more than Germany and Austria have a sudden hankering to amalgamate the Germanic peoples.

As such, it is entirely reasonable for him, in the 2030s and '40s, to have been seeking to expand the production of fossil fuels under Russian control in certain regions of the world. Always with the awareness that having his hand on the "tap" would enable him to close off the supply later or manipulate prices, of course.
Not really.

By daily production, he has Saudi Arabia(9.2 million), the UAE(3.1 million), Iraq(4.1 million), Qatar(1.5million) and Kuwait(2.6 million) as reserves from which to spool up production at need. Plus Iran as a client ally(2.6 million), his economic intervention in Brazil(2.9 million), and Imperial Russia's domestic production(Russia 9.8 million + Kazakhstan 1.7million + Azerbaijan 0.7 million + Turkmenistan 0.186 million).

Thats better than half of 2020's daily world production figure of 76 million bpd.

Remove the US(11.3 million), Canada(4.2 million), Mexico(1.7 million) and Venezuela(0.5 million) from the pool of oil producers, and his control of total world production is >70%.
Thats monopoly control. He doesnt need more.
Doing this gives him economic resources he can parcel out to allies that will prop up his powerbase within Russia, and allows his allies to access the fuel they need without giving those allies incentives to separately and independently prop up oil producers outside the Russian spheres of influence. The last thing Alexander needs is, for instance, his good buddies Japan and India trying to go to some place Alexander wrecked (like Venezuela) and rebuilding the place because they need more oil and/or gas than he's willing to supply them with.
Not many significant oil/gas producers outside the Russian sphere of influence.

And it takes over a decade to go from discovery to production of fossil fuels; for example Mozambique discovered a new offshore gas field in 2011/2012, and Total is throwing 15-20 billion dollars at it, but production doesnt start until 2024(the sudden incidence of Islamic rebels there put even that timetable in doubt).

That sort of lag time when presumably electrics are right there changes the economics.

I mean, he's just as likely to leave the smaller producers alone to at least give the superficial impression that he isnt going for complete control. And because he has grabbed the lowhanging fruit with best return. But it doesnt really change the fact that after he took control of the Middle East he basically implemented a chokehold on world supplies of fossil fuels, and there is nothing his "allies" can do about that.

And frankly, his blowing up Venezuela when he did suggests he doesnt especially care about how they see his control of oil producers.
 
So I haven't read any of the other suggestions people have put in, sorry if I repeat any popular ideas.

My thoughts for Africa:

1) Africa is a big and diverse place. Countries should go in many directions.
2) Some of those places are likely to be quite successful, having large populations, relatively strong education systems and being far from Russia.
3) Some parts of Africa are going to be caught up in the collapse - and while some may have recovered quickly, some are likely to still be messes.
4) Nigeria and Ethiopia are both well-placed to exceed Russia in power in the modern world, but perhaps the new superpowers of Africa have not built the alliance systems that made the US and now Russia world-bestriding powers.
5) Depending on how lucky or unlucky places have been, there are a few other countries that could plausibly have overtaken Russia by the 2070s. South Africa for example. The Congo basin could also have done quite well. Or it might have continued to be unlucky. In either case, Congolese cobalt is probably still massively important.
6) So far in our fleshing out various world regions, Russia has been extremely involved in all of them. Frankly, there is little Russian hard or soft power left to cover Africa. If sub-Saharan Africa is at all in Russia's shadow, it is likely actually in the shadow of an African superpower that gets sweetheart deals for licensing technology from Russia and Japan in return for helping maintain the Russian world system.

Just my 6c.

fasquardon
 
One thing I forgot to mention:
Francophone Africa is an area where France still wields significant foreign influence.
West and Central Africa. Military basing, defense cooperation agreements et cetera.

They even retain control of their currency; the West African CFA franc and Central African CFA franc are guaranteed by the French Treasury and were pegged to the French franc, and now to the euro.
Not an economist, but economists say that has not been economically advantageous to the saidcountries.

Given Russia's intentions vis a vis French power, they arent exactly going to be overly distressed by local arrangements arising in the aftermath of French civil unrest.


Thank you.


Russian arms sales post-Soviet Union have been primarily aimed at economic return on investment, not like the more strategic positioning that the Soviet Union engaged in.
I wouldnt read anything into the Ethiopian arms sales; they tried to buy nuclear missiles from France first.

Sudan has been effectively diplomatically isolated for years.
Picking up a naval base there is as much about Sudan trying to break out of its Gulf State foreign policy box links post-Bashir than any Russian links.
In the post-Collapse Middle East where they have basing from Syria to Yemen, not really the coup it seems.


Russia is the largest LNG producer post-Collapse with the US and Canada gone.
Alexander's primary means of exercising economic pressure post-Collapse, of compelling other countries to move to renewables, is his control of most of the worlds fossil fuel production post-Collapse, both in Russia and the Middle East. Why would he want someone new to start up production?

Blowing up the rig(s) that's prospecting before it starts any production is not a particularly difficult concept for Russian Intelligence to master.
Especially given the expense of investing in petroleum mining, and what probably happened to most oil companies in this TL during the Collapse.


Its worth remembering that many of said resources and raw materials are things that new African production would be competing with domestic Russian production for marketshare.
The consumer base is still developing.

And Russia does not have infinite resources to invest everywhere, something thats been explicitly called out.
Dude brought Japan and India onside for a reason, and its not generosity or appreciation of their culture.

Its not about turning away investment and more needing to find it internally because financers are not exactly falling over themselves to throw money at developing countries in the midst/aftermath of the Collapse.
Thats what happens when people blow up the world financial system.

There's a reason I asked what the desired endstate is, and the conditions.

Russia has always been treated as a European country in geopolitics.
The bulk of its population is in Europe, as is the bulk of its economic activity.
It was one of the European countries involved in Angola and Ethiopia and Somalia.

If I refer to North American countries, that doesnt exclude the United States because Hawaii and Puerto Rico exist.

Whether arms sales are an economic or "strategic" lever does not change the fact that they are a definite lever. Ethiopia shopping around for French nukes does not in any way reduce the amount of influence that these arms sales would offer Russia, especially in an immediately post-collapse scenario when Russia is one of the only games left in town for armaments.

Sudan being diplomatically isolated, again, does not change the fact that Russia has basing there, and that that basing is another lever that Russia can use to insert itself into African affairs. Basing in Syria and Yemen is not basing in Africa. Sudan provides this, Russia has reason to retain that basing if not expand it, Sudan has absolutely no reason to refuse them. Sudan having motives of its own to grant the Russians basing does not in any way change the fact that this is still Russian basing from which it can deploy troops and other assets for assorted fuck-fuck games.

Russia is a major LNG producer, but there is still a US and Canada-sized gap in production, probably more than that given the severe unrest the Middle East and global hydrocarbon supply chains are seeing as a result of US withdrawal and the Collapse. There are fossil fuels, and then there are fossil fuels: crude oil production is not the same for Alexander's climate goals as natural gas production, since LNG is the most logical choice for a stopgap hydrocarbon. Russia has considerable reserves and production of Nat Gas, but surprise surprise, neither massive Russian reserves or massive Middle Eastern reserves mean that there is no market for natural gas production in other countries, since mankind consumes so much fuel that even Russia's massive reserves cannot currently sate all demand. Even with a broader economic collapse and the decline of global trade, the fact that the US and Canada still require plenty of fuel to meet the various micro-states' needs while their production has been slashed to basically zero, as well as the Tsar's climate agenda hinging upon transitioning away from dirty power generation to cleaner stopgaps like LNG while renewables spool up, mean that demand for LNG isn't going anywhere and is likely to rocket upward. Even Russia's considerable reserves and the reserves of their client states in the Middle East are not going to be enough to sate this demand. Even if the bulk of this LNG is going to fuel domestic African power consumption (which would rise considerably as Sub-Saharan African states dramatically increase the scale and complexity of their electricity grids) that is still something Russia would want to encourage and get in on, especially since Alexei needs a sop or two that he can toss to the major Russian oil companies that are going to take Alexei's shift away from crude oil directly in the shorts. Even without natgas, the sheer hydropower potential of the Congo basin is something Russian energy companies would rush to exploit, helpfully lining the pockets of the struggling East African states in the process.

It wouldn't be hard to blow up the rigs, it would just be a terrible fucking idea that would do far more environmental damage than it would prevent. Russia and Africa want the LNG, Russia has the means to exploit the LNG, blowing up the rigs would create an environmental disaster for negligible benefit. It would make far more sense for Alexei to engage with Tanzania and co. to get influence over East African LNG production, because again, Russia and the Middle East having considerable LNG reserves does not inherently make African LNG reserves useless, if only because domestic African power generation through LNGs is guaranteed to be a considerable market which Russian energy companies would want a piece of.

The rigs aren't prospecting, they are in production. These are proven reserves that Tanzania is accessing right now, albeit not to the full potential of the reserves in question. The mere existence of the rigs proves my point, which is that this is ongoing natgas production with existing infrastructure that Russia would want to take over, not destroy, because natgas demand far outstrips Russia or the Middle East's production even today. This is a world where Canadian and US production, as well as a great deal of European production, has gone the way of the dodo, while demand has not declined and has in all likelihood spiked considerably (wars to fight, disruptions to the existing supply chain since the Texas refineries and shipping terminals are offline, etc.).

A huge chunk of Alexei's deal with the Russian people involves a massive improvement in Russia's economic and political stature and ordinary Russians' standard of living. Russia even today is not an autarchy, despite its considerable resources: a far more affluent Russia in a world where several major centers of production have either collapsed (see several of the Southeast Asian states) or similarly become better-educated and more affluent (India and China) cannot hope to sustain enough manufacturing to sate the demands of Russian consumers or the global market. Manufacturing is already increasingly moving to Africa, and a Russian economic and political ascendancy and Asian collapse would would only increase the speed of this. Russian production is a drop in the bucket of global consumer goods production even today, let alone when Russia has become vastly more affluent and other current centers of consumer goods production have either become affluent enough to transition to a Post-Fordist economy or faced societal collapse. Africa is the logical next choice for where this production ought to go. Russian companies wanting to sate the demands of Russian consumers for cheap goods will want to set up manufacturing taking advantage of African cheap labor and raw materials, as well as the stability guaranteed by Russian involvement.

Speaking of which, Russian intervention can come in more ways than purely military: economic assistance is a potent enough arrow in Russia's quiver here, and one that has potential to make Russia far more money than it initially invests. The idea that Russia, in its efforts to become a world hegemon, would for some reason expend resources on Asia, which it has already given to its allies Japan and India, but completely neglect Africa, which has a wealth of manpower, raw materials and, in the case of East Africa, vital positioning astride global sea lanes and massive water reserves, is absurd to the point of ridicule. Africa is too great a prize for Russia to ignore, and as I previously pointed out, Russia is in prime position to re-enter the region first, given that it is making its big play for power at the same time as China is melting down completely and India is coping with the total collapse of its main rival and biggest nuclear threat. Even if Russia were to intervene militarily, the amount of resources that such an intervention would require would be paltry compared to what the European or Central Asian conquests to require. Even today, Russia is able to leverage not-insignificant influence on the continent in the face of American, French and Chinese competition with a small number of advisors and mercenaries on a shoestring budget. Africa is too important for Alexei to ignore. He will make time and he will find resources, because the amount of bang he can get for his buck in Africa is considerable compared to Russian commitments elsewhere and the rewards of such intervention are great.

Again, this does not mean that Russia will stay in control for ever, or even secure total control initially. A position of economic and military influence in Sub-Saharan Africa in the 2020s and 2030s is unlikely to hold in the face of China and India offering alternatives to Russian suzerainty, especially since the African states will all be maneuvering for their own advantage. It is entirely reasonable for Sub-Saharan Africa in the 2070s to have shrugged off Russian influence through playing games with its various sponsors and investors. But a scenario where Russia meekly declines to re-engage with Africa, or simply ignores a continent's worth of people and resources, is absurd and defies all credulity. If we are going to chart out the course Sub-Saharan Africa takes, it is only sensible to factor in Russian involvement, because Russia will not ignore close to a sixth of the globe however much we might wish for them to.
 
*stares at Burundi and Rwanda*
Doubt it.
No more than Germany and Austria have a sudden hankering to amalgamate the Germanic peoples.

Not really.

By daily production, he has Saudi Arabia(9.2 million), the UAE(3.1 million), Iraq(4.1 million), Qatar(1.5million) and Kuwait(2.6 million) as reserves from which to spool up production at need. Plus Iran as a client ally(2.6 million), his economic intervention in Brazil(2.9 million), and Imperial Russia's domestic production(Russia 9.8 million + Kazakhstan 1.7million + Azerbaijan 0.7 million + Turkmenistan 0.186 million).

Thats better than half of 2020's daily world production figure of 76 million bpd.

Remove the US(11.3 million), Canada(4.2 million), Mexico(1.7 million) and Venezuela(0.5 million) from the pool of oil producers, and his control of total world production is >70%.
Thats monopoly control. He doesnt need more.

Not many significant oil/gas producers outside the Russian sphere of influence.
You're not wrong, but it bears remembering that several of the places you list as being under Russian control (in particular the Arab oil states) are places that Alexander has essentially destroyed. He has theoretical access to that oil/gas production capacity, in that he could restart it and no one else could do so without his permission. But he does not have practical access in the sense that he can "turn up the tap" and use production from those countries to manipulate global resource markets. It is a very deeply buried strategic reserve.

It is within the realm of the plausible that there may be specific places where Alexander has gone out of his way to allow or tolerate new fossil fuel extraction to be developed, IF it was taking place in areas he was reasonably confident he could control.

I mean, he's just as likely to leave the smaller producers alone to at least give the superficial impression that he isnt going for complete control. And because he has grabbed the lowhanging fruit with best return. But it doesnt really change the fact that after he took control of the Middle East he basically implemented a chokehold on world supplies of fossil fuels, and there is nothing his "allies" can do about that.

And frankly, his blowing up Venezuela when he did suggests he doesnt especially care about how they see his control of oil producers.
Yeah, but remember the timescales here. He devastated Venezuela in, what, the '30s? The '40s? And this was a place that, going by what's happening in real life OTL, probably wasn't producing that much oil or doing that well before he showed up. Venezuela's most of the way to total collapse in real life without anyone like Alexander even bothering to intervene.

And this was more or less the same timeframe when he was rampaging in the Middle East and causing a global oil shock by abruptly, violently cutting the supplies from several of the world's biggest and formerly most reliable producers.

So what did the world attitude look like in the 2050s? THAT is the period when Alexander had to start coming down off his conquest high and recognizing that he needs to keep his allies reasonably comfortable with the new world order. That is the point where he starts negotiating compromises with his allies that enable him to maintain control (more oil and gas for his allies if they truly need it, but in facilities under Alexander's control and at price points that incentivize continued movement towards green technologies), because the alternative is for him to lose control.


Again, this does not mean that Russia will stay in control for ever, or even secure total control initially. A position of economic and military influence in Sub-Saharan Africa in the 2020s and 2030s is unlikely to hold in the face of China and India offering alternatives to Russian suzerainty, especially since the African states will all be maneuvering for their own advantage. It is entirely reasonable for Sub-Saharan Africa in the 2070s to have shrugged off Russian influence through playing games with its various sponsors and investors. But a scenario where Russia meekly declines to re-engage with Africa, or simply ignores a continent's worth of people and resources, is absurd and defies all credulity. If we are going to chart out the course Sub-Saharan Africa takes, it is only sensible to factor in Russian involvement, because Russia will not ignore close to a sixth of the globe however much we might wish for them to.
On the other hand, Russian involvement will almost certainly have to take on a character more 'normal' for that of a major power involving itself in the region. More like what we've seen in most of South America outside the northern reaches of the continent, for instance.
 
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Proposed Worldbuiding: Egypt

The Collapse was not kind to Egypt.

The loss of Egypt's export partners was a crippling blow to an economy that was already defined by corruption and inequality. Riots in Cairo were followed by insurrection in the countryside, and the military government struggled to maintain control of a few key cities as the nation collapsed into anarchy. The desperate, rapid transition to subsistence farming barely prevented famine, but tens of thousands died of malnutrition, and the survival rations of the poor were barely sufficient to keep them alive.

As Russia recovered from the Collapse and Tsar Alexander began to build his empire, he identified Egypt as a key element in his plan for global hegemony. When global trade resumed, control of the Suez Canal would be a priceless asset. But the Tsar's plans for Eastern Europe and the Middle East left him with no military resources to spare for Egypt; even the occupation of the Canal Zone would have required soldiers that he needed elsewhere. So the Tsar of all the Russias was forced to engage in his least favorite activity; diplomacy.

The bankrupt, crumbling military government rewarded Alexander's outreach by immediately embracing their new role as his puppets, and for a brief moment the Tsar started to think there might be something to this "hearts and minds" idea after all. Russia provided bullets for the military, but they also offered food shipments and cheap pharmaceuticals for the poor. The Tsar wanted a functional Egypt, a country that could serve as a useful ally, not a graveyard like Syria. So the weak, neglected humanitarian elements of Russia's foreign policy had their brief chance to shine, and Egypt became something like a nation once more.

Russia helped Egypt build their agriculture and industry, they provided substantial military aid, and all that they asked in return was absolute control of the Suez Canal. The generals were overjoyed with that deal. The Egyptian people were exhausted by civil war and chaos, and they were ready for a time of peace and relative prosperity. Egypt became a model Russian puppet state, an example for all the others.

For a time. Pan-Arabism has deep roots in Egypt, and as the years passed by some Egyptians began to question their bargain. They remembered a time when Egypt had aspired to lead the Arab world, rather than serving as the obedient puppet of a foreign tyrant. The generals and their secret police assured Alexander that they had the situation under control, that a rabble of fanatics calling for democracy or theocracy would never overthrow them.

The appeal of Pan-Arabism was not limited to civilians. Tsar Alexander's aides woke him early one morning to inform their sovereign that the latest round of street protests had not been answered with bullets. Instead, a clique of patriotic, ambitious junior officers had arrested their superiors, charging the ruling junta with corruption and "disloyalty to the nation".

Alexander was not pleased. But the provisional government maintained their treaties, and a confrontation would risk control of the Suez Canal. With the EU now contesting Russia's dominance of the Mediterranean, it was not a suitable time to deal with the Egyptians. Alexander acknowledged the new government, accepted their vows of loyalty, and immediately tasked his Okhrana with turning Egypt back into a proper puppet.

After several years of chaotic political transition, Egypt is now an exceedingly fragile democracy. An national unity government rules from Cairo, a broad coalition of liberals, Islamists, and patriotic officers united by a shared distrust of Russia and a desire for Egypt to emerge as the rightful leader of the Arab world. Though they are still officially aligned with Russia, and the Russians maintain de facto control of the Suez Canal, Egypt's actual status is that of an overmighty vassal state not yet willing to commit to an open break. The many Russian spies within the government inform Alexander of ongoing negotiations with the EU, and the Egyptian police have been remarkably incompetent at shutting down anti-Russian groups, some of which are on surprisingly good terms with the officially pro-Russian government.

This is bad

Like catestrophically, verging on racist charicature, *bad*.

I don't blame you because western reporting on non-white countries is activly malicious and non-western reporting that the west listens to is *Al Jeezera* which does the RT thing of "decent reporting abroad so you'll buy lies about our region"

I'll need to like, sit down and talk to the people I know who live there and shit, but... This is vaugly like writing about Ireland and going "Well, I do know they're Catholic and Drunk and keep trying to kill Margret Thatcher, therefor Northern Ireland is now a Russian province, but the rest of Ireland is a secular liberal democracy after a period of theocratic Catholic rule : )"

Edit: (I'm still trying to figure out how "major food exporter to Europe, that is famous for having been the breadbasket for multiple empires for six thousand years, that has a major obseity epidemic" begins starving overnight because Europe *stops buying their food*)
 
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This is bad

Like catestrophically, verging on racist charicature, *bad*.

I don't blame you because western reporting on non-white countries is activly malicious and non-western reporting that the west listens to is *Al Jeezera* which does the RT thing of "decent reporting abroad so you'll buy lies about our region"

I'll need to like, sit down and talk to the people I know who live there and shit, but... This is vaugly like writing about Ireland and going "Well, I do know they're Catholic and Drunk and keep trying to kill Margret Thatcher, therefor Northern Ireland is now a Russian province, but the rest of Ireland is a secular liberal democracy after a period of theocratic Catholic rule : )"

Those are strong words. You're going to need to back them up.

Egypt is under a military government right now. Arguing for a widespread collapse of civil order in the wake of an economic collapse is hardly controversial; liberal democratic France lost continuity of government during the Collapse. My proposal was to have Russia come in with an offer of aid, which they desperately needed, and to puppet Egypt through the use of soft power. This is not a new thing for empires to do.

Saying that my proposal was a "racist caricature" is a serious accusation, and it requires serious evidence. Evidence you did not provide. Instead, you gave me four sentences of vague condemnation and a comparison to Ireland that frankly makes no sense.

Egypt ended up as a Russian vassal. Very large parts of the world ended up as Russian vassals. This is not some special condemnation of Egypt, just a recognition that Egypt is strategically important, that Russia would want to control the Suez Canal, and that the Egyptian military was willing to make a deal with foreigners to secure their own power.

Pan-Arabism was an important ideology in Egypt under General Nasser. The QM specifically mentioned that pan-Arabism is on the rise again. It seems reasonable that Egyptian dissidents would rebel against being a Russian vassal and seek to secure a strong, independent Egypt that would take a leading role in a strong, independent Arab world.

Your criticism is unwelcome not because it is criticism, but because it is frankly low-effort. I can be wrong about things, and I can be persuaded that I am wrong. That happens. However, I find it somewhat frustrating to hear that my worldbuilding is a "racist caricature" from someone who neglects to provide any details as to why.

Edit: The information I've seen is that Egypt is a major food importer.

Egypt - The Food Gap

https://apps.fas.usda.gov/newgainap...Processing Ingredients_Cairo_Egypt_03-30-2020

How to Feed Egypt

In my proposal, Egypt suffered from an economic collapse as part of the larger Collapse. This had larger social and political consequences, including widespread insurrection, rioting, and the collapse of governmental control over large portions of the country.

If the Egyptian government and people made only good choices, Egypt probably could feed itself. But the Egyptian government and people did not make only good choices.

I struggle to understand how you can question Egypt suffering from famine and malnutrition when America canonically suffers from famine and malnutrition. If we're considering the matter exclusively in terms of arable land and crop yields, then Americans would have eaten well during the Collapse.

It's called "the Collapse". Not "the sort of bad time when most people ate just fine, really". The Collapse period also featured a major plague that hit America hard and may have had equally serious consequences for Egypt. Countries that are technically capable of feeding themselves may be less capable of making a transition to self-sufficiency when dealing with an economic collapse and violent uprisings and a plague and a government that was less than concerned with the well-being of the common people.

"Food production" was more of an issue in older famines, when a drought or a flood ruined the harvest and there wasn't enough for everyone. Modern famines are more likely to involve a failure of distribution, as the mechanisms for moving food break down, often as a result of war or societal collapse.

And again, "racist caricature" is not a minor accusation. If you're going to say it, you need to back it up.
 
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So I did some quick back of the envelope calculations, looking at how African economies have expanded over the 57 years from 1960 to 2017, then projecting forward from 2019 assuming that economic growth over the next 57 years was about the same as either Nigeria's 57 years (the "good" scenario, Nigeria's economy expanded 89.5-fold in the 57 year period) and if their growth over the next 57 years looked more like what the DRC has experienced (victim to vile dictators, multiple neo-imperialist interventions, caught in the overflow of the Rwandan genocide, battleground of two great wars, economy expanded 11.3-fold in the 57 year period).

If Nigeria follows the "Nigerian" path until 2076, its GDP would be about 40 trillion USD - Nigeria's population is projected to grow to c. 590 million by 2076, so that's a bit more than double the economy of the modern US with a bit less than double the modern US population.

If Nigeria follows the "DRC" path until 2076, its GDP would be about 5 trillion USD, 1/3rd the economy of modern China with a bit more than 1/3rd the modern Chinese population.

Egypt, if it follows the "Nigerian" path would have a GDP of about 27 trillion USD, a smidge less than double the economy of 2019 China and a population of about 200 million (1/7th China's population). (Note though that unlike Nigeria and Ethiopia, Egypt is already a middle-income state, so it is unlikely that they'd have grown as much as Nigeria and Ethiopia have if all 3 have enjoyed similarly fortuitous circumstances.)

If Egypt follows the "DRC" path, it would have a GDP of about 3.4 trillion USD, a bit smaller than the German economy, and a population of about 200 million (2-and-a-half Germanies).

If Ethiopia follows the "Nigerian" path it would have a GDP of about 8.6 trillion USD, two Germanies and a Spain, a population a smidge under 270 million (3 Germanies and one Poland).

If Ethiopia follows the "DRC" path it would have a GDP of about 1 trillion USD (3/4ths of the Spanish economy in 2019) and a population of 270 million (6 Spains).

(Population projections from Population Pyramids of the World from 1950 to 2100, gdp data from the World Bank.)

For comparison, the Russian core by 2076 would likely have a population of 130 million, if we count all of the Former Soviet territory Alexander conquered, Russia will have a population of about 250 million, though I doubt that all of that population are especially loyal if Alexander was serious about his Christian-supremacist persona that the Vicks believe in... The Russian empire by 2076 is likely to be about 50% Muslim by population. Since Russia's economic performance over the 20th Century is closest to the performance of Argentina, I'll use Argentina as a model for Russia's next 57 years and use the same shockingly loose methodology as I use above. From 1962 to 2019 Argentina's economy expanded 18.2-fold. Applying a similar 18.2-fold increase to the 2.478 trillion GDP for the Former Soviet Union (this number from the IMF), then in 2076 the Russian Empire would have a GDP of about 45 trillion USD. Russia proper, by the same methodology, comes out at 31 trillion USD in GDP.

Again, this is extremely crude back-of-the-envelope stuff. It is in no way a serious economic analysis. My point here is to give people a grasp on just how much change can happen in 57 years.

Africa could have had an utterly horrific time of it, and still be as wealthy as Latin America is today on a per capita basis and have states as powerful as Germany or Japan are today. If Africa has done better, it could be that Russia is grappling with the "Rise of Nigeria" in the way that the USA today is coming to terms with the "Rise of China".

And given that in Europe several states took a break from even existing, I am very, very doubtful that the EU is able to throw its weight around in Africa. More likely African powers are throwing their weight around in Europe in 2076. Or, if Africa took the collapse hard, is at least able to negotiate on terms of equality.

fasquardon
 
Edit: (I'm still trying to figure out how "major food exporter to Europe, that is famous for having been the breadbasket for multiple empires for six thousand years, that has a major obseity epidemic" begins starving overnight because Europe *stops buying their food*)
Ireland was a major food exporter before (and continued to export food during) the Potato Famine. America has an obesity epidemic in 2020 and we're teetering on the edge of famine in 2075 in Victoria Falls. Disruption of global supply chains impacting agricultural yield is a thing, and massive income inequality combined with government indifference can very easily create situations where "Country X produces a glut of food" and "some people in Country X are unable to obtain food to keep them alive" are true at the same time.

So I did some quick back of the envelope calculations, looking at how African economies have expanded over the 57 years from 1960 to 2017, then projecting forward from 2019 assuming that economic growth over the next 57 years was about the same as either Nigeria's 57 years (the "good" scenario, Nigeria's economy expanded 89.5-fold in the 57 year period) and if their growth over the next 57 years looked more like what the DRC has experienced (victim to vile dictators, multiple neo-imperialist interventions, caught in the overflow of the Rwandan genocide, battleground of two great wars, economy expanded 11.3-fold in the 57 year period).
The problem with this kind of multiplication is that it's a bit naive about catchup effects.

As we've already observed from watching nations like South Korea that have basically caught up with the developed world in GDP, it's relatively easy to make your economy grow fifty times larger in a single human lifetime when you're starting out with an economy that consists mainly of subsistence farmers and your population is booming. That gets you up to an industrialized economy... but continuing to grow from there is much harder. The population boom cannot go on forever, and there are only so many physical resources in the country to be tapped as greater economic output. And GDP growth rates of 5% or 7% or even higher (which result in economic 'doubling times' of 12-15 years or less) start to regress to the mean and be more like 1.5% or 2% (which result in 'doubling times' of 35-50 years).

This how even countries like the Congo, which are in nearly perpetual crisis and fighting ongoing civil wars, can somehow manage to expand their economy by a factor of eleven- because everyone's a subsistence farmer, so just population growth alone increases "GDP" by a large amount, and just building some mines or whatever can start to account for the rest even with minimal change in standard of living.

So I don't think we can really do much with your analysis. After all, the US's GDP increased from 0.543 trillion in 1960 to 18.22 trillion in 2015, and definitely did not increase by a similar 33-fold booming expansion from 2015 to 2070.

Africa could have had an utterly horrific time of it, and still be as wealthy as Latin America is today on a per capita basis and have states as powerful as Germany or Japan are today. If Africa has done better, it could be that Russia is grappling with the "Rise of Nigeria" in the way that the USA today is coming to terms with the "Rise of China".
This... is true.

And given that in Europe several states took a break from even existing, I am very, very doubtful that the EU is able to throw its weight around in Africa. More likely African powers are throwing their weight around in Europe in 2076. Or, if Africa took the collapse hard, is at least able to negotiate on terms of equality.
This... is also true.
 
The problem with this kind of multiplication is that it's a bit naive about catchup effects.

You read my whole post right? Because I touch on that several times.

This how even countries like the Congo, which are in nearly perpetual crisis and fighting ongoing civil wars, can somehow manage to expand their economy by a factor of eleven- because everyone's a subsistence farmer, so just population growth alone increases "GDP" by a large amount, and just building some mines or whatever can start to account for the rest even with minimal change in standard of living.

An 11-fold expansion is actually really bad for the world from 1960-2017. Spain in the same 57 year time frame expanded its economy more than 100-fold.

Again, the point here is to hammer home how different the world will look after 57 years and to give people a better idea of just what "this part of Africa is doing well" and "this part of Africa is a dumpster fire" is likely to look like in practice.

fasquardon
 
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