Victoria Falls Worldbuilding Thread

It seems kind of unlikely that any of them would be in Japan? Maybe some of the absolute first waves, after that? From the timeline established, by the time the Pacific republic fell and there stopped being any viable American successor states, Japan had long since made itself anathema to America by crushing and occupying Cascadia. That took place in '42 before China had even properly falled, which in turn suggests that the break between Japan and the US military occurred significantly earlier. I would expect to see any surviving atlantic fleets in Europe, given that the Panama Canal became nontraversable for them, and any Pacific fleets sunk fighting the Russian Blockade, still with the NCR, or with Australia.
The ones that went to Japan would have been in the first wave of splinters, yes, and later seized when Japan came over all ultranationalist. None afterwards.
We are surrounded by enemies on every side it seems.
South America has many bitter memories of what it's like living in the United States's back yard. They may not be down for active suppression, and they may not be antagonistic, but very few other people in your hemisphere would cheer outright for a reunification.
Okay. If Alexander's interests in South America mostly begin and end with environmental concerns (and specifically the Amazon) then Brazil may very well be a loser here. Several of the West Coast nations are actually a majority rainforest and then there's the Humbolt Current alongside Chile, Perú, and to a lesser extent Ecuador (they get climate action, but not the cold weather). Ecuador does have the Galapagos though and Perú the Ballistas.

And, if memory serves, those rainforest sections are largely underdeveloped and underpopulated. I can totally see Alexander solving territory disputes (of which there are many. Seriously just look up the claimed territory by Ecuador and Perú. There's some massive overlap.) by giving away parts of Brazil. Because Brazil has a history of turning rainforest into farmland. Now obviously, Alexander wouldn't be able to actually enforce any of his map edits, but he does have planes and the political clout of the global hegemon.

Otherwise, Japan has to be a big player on the West Coast. Peru has a significant population of Chinese and Japanese descent, one of their past presidents was a Japanese national (turns out his presidency was illegal) and his daughter was a recent presidential candidate. If Neo-Imperial Japan hasn't leveraged that somehow, then they're idiots.
I mean, they are. The precise flavor of idiocy, in this case, is, "Looked at the clear field that was the Pacific and descended into cackling imperialist lunacy, seizing every island they could reach and nomming something like six times their land area in spectacularly messy terrain."

So now they are forced to be part of the contain-China alliance while also fighting brutal insurgencies in all of that terrible terrain they seized. Any influence they once has in South America is quite beyond their ability to maintain now.
 
Did they try anything during their 'Golden Years' of glorious plot armor? Japan would have had economic and nationalistic cause to try and influence nations that border the Pacific, which they insist is their domain.
I mean, I'd buy it. They'd be one of the more obvious Russosphere nations to have been encouraged to contribute to the, "Keep South America From Exploding," fund, and they'd probably try to leverage that into influence. I have no trouble seeing them as having gained influence in those years before losing it later on as the ability to sustain the glory of empire faded.
 
I mean, I'd buy it. They'd be one of the more obvious Russosphere nations to have been encouraged to contribute to the, "Keep South America From Exploding," fund, and they'd probably try to leverage that into influence. I have no trouble seeing them as having gained influence in those years before losing it later on as the ability to sustain the glory of empire faded.
I meant it more in the terms of trying to replace America as the region's de facto hegemon, as they wield significant naval capability, presumably hold a similar philosophy to Alexander regarding the merits of soft vs. hard power, and unlike him have the time and attention to spare. After all, "why fairly trade for what you can extort," and the Japanese people are just as hungry for cheap fruit as the Americans used to be.
 
I meant it more in the terms of trying to replace America as the region's de facto hegemon, as they wield significant naval capability, presumably hold a similar philosophy to Alexander regarding the merits of soft vs. hard power, and unlike him have the time and attention to spare. After all, "why fairly trade for what you can extort," and the Japanese people are just as hungry for cheap fruit as the Americans used to be.
If they're going for fruit primarily they want Central America more than Chile.
 
Open to arguments on specifics, but Brazil nabbing several carrier task forces is a no.
for something fun: Marine Admiral Kerensky* contacts the last director of the FCC to hide his movements because Brazil would be willing to buy USN ships and takes a helicopter carrier and escorts** to deliver the merchandise, and using a show of audacity uses the last remaining special forces of the US to... convince Brazil that the navy would make a good neutral stabilizing force for whoever comes out on top in politics. (blackhawks using cover of an airshow to kidnap a couple oligarchs to make a point)

*not the admiral's given name, he's just a huge battletech/star trek fan blessed by the charisma gods and really good at his job

**iirc a heli-carrier + escorts is like 4 ships total... but the F-35c is designed to operate on heli-carriers

***the SLN/SLDF were able to do their exodus to parts unexpected, a small detachment of the USN taking dependents and logistics could pop up just about anywhere, why not brazil
 
However, there's been a lot of talk about how Argentina is the best nation on the continent to become a global power if it could just get over itself, more or less...
Eh.

Argentina has a population of roughly 45 million people, roughly equal to that of Spain. And a GDP roughly equal to that of Belgium. Looks to me like if they developed to fully-developed standards they'd be relevant, but as a regional power, not a global one.

By contrast, Brazil has a GDP approximating that of Russia, South Korea, or Australia, and a population of over 200 million. Even if a lot of their land area is economically unproductive jungle that has to be kept as-is, that's a much bigger base on which to build things. Any statement of the form "Argentina would be a major power if only it could stop screwing itself over" should logically be far more applicable to Brazil.

I think Argentina is getting some hype from having "great natural geography." I'm not sure how much that really counts for in and of itself, even if the economy is being competently managed. Let's not get exaggerated expectations, though I'm sure the place can be doing well if flexing some muscles.

Don't know were Chile fits in between the Andean Alliance and Argentina and no clue about the three colonies and former colonies between Venezuela and Brazil.
Chile is likely to align with the Andean Alliance because they're historic rivals with Argentina. And while we're talking about geography, Chile's is both good and bad. The country is a long skinny strip that an enemy can cut into at many points, buuuut the Andes Mountains. The rivalry with Argentina is thus mainly limited mainly by the fact that they're on opposite sides of one of the world's biggest mountain ranges and so neither is in any shape to invade the other.

A rapidly strengthening Argentina is an Argentina that could plausibly pose a lasting threat to Chile, so they need a counterweight. Aligning with Brazil is a possibility, but Brazil probably doesn't have much incentive to get into costly clashes with Argentina over Chilean interests, and Brazil is a bit iffy as an ally anyway, because they get a lot of Russian aid and their government isn't any too stable when viewed at first glance.

Getting Chile into the Andean Alliance also makes it a bit simpler for those countries to come up with some kind of mutually agreeable arrangement for not screwing each other over on mineral resources- one likely early point for cooperative discussion.

Of course, doing so would require diverting resources from more critical regions that are already getting starved of the resources needed to keep things as they are and there are also indications the nations are all trying to create a continent-wide alliance which would be very problematic if true, but he just doesn't have the resources to look into it more in depth.
Eh. It honestly seems rather likely that the three big power blocs are as described, with Argentina fast-growing* and hungry with current Russian support, Brazil a bit tubby and wobbly but by sheer size the powerhouse of the continent, and the Andean Alliance trying to overcome mutual differences (possibly including some radical political disputes) and get the Gran Colombian band back together for, well... in hindsight, more or less the exact reasons Simon Bolivar had in mind 250 years ago. Namely, ability to credibly stand together and wield geostrategic influence to counter the machinations of foreign kings and rivals. :p
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*(can they have a population boom without impoverishing themselves? Could refugees from some far foreign place swell their population so they're less of a pipsqueak?)

Once the Mississippi is opened, that's when we'll start cooking with gas. Economically the Great Lakes alone have enough natural recourses to compete with SA nations, whose economies would still be at least partially based around exports. Individual regions of the US are currently just too destitute to really provide significant competition - but if the revivalists ever start making moves to realize their dream, that's another equation entirely. Shattered infrastructure or no, North America has over 300 million people, more continuous navigable river than the rest of the world combined, and would start receiving massive amounts of the American Diaspora who'd view their homeland as safe again.

At that point the cozy little status-quo South America has stumbled upon would blow away like dust in the wind.
Ehhh.

I think that having fifty years of NOT being actively kept in a subordinate position by the US, and just having time to grow and develop without the sabotage that's basically blown the US all the way back to the 19th century in terms of per capita wealth and done a pretty rough job on a lot of the rest of the world... I think South America is now in a relatively good position to deal with Americans on equal terms if they can present a reasonably unified front.

One of the US's big historical advantages has been US ties to various powerful elite factions in Latin America, which we've been intentionally cultivating for centuries. Those ties are gone now, which inherently makes any kind of economic or strategic threat a restored US would pose a lot less menacing.
 
If they're going for fruit primarily they want Central America more than Chile.
Well, presumably with Chile they're less blunt about things - I'd assume the Japanese simply lean on the government to provide the Zaibastus special economic privileges, free naval access, and the works. Stuff the Chileans will be happy to throw off once the Rising Sun's star no longer gleams quite so brightly, but a more subtle form of throwing around their new great power status while it lasts than El Salvador getting shafted for the umpteenth time.
Eh.

Argentina has a population of roughly 45 million people, roughly equal to that of Spain. And a GDP roughly equal to that of Belgium. Looks to me like if they developed to fully-developed standards they'd be relevant, but as a regional power, not a global one.

By contrast, Brazil has a GDP approximating that of Russia, South Korea, or Australia, and a population of over 200 million. Even if a lot of their land area is economically unproductive jungle that has to be kept as-is, that's a much bigger base on which to build things. Any statement of the form "Argentina would be a major power if only it could stop screwing itself over" should logically be far more applicable to Brazil.

I think Argentina is getting some hype from having "great natural geography." I'm not sure how much that really counts for in and of itself, even if the economy is being competently managed. Let's not get exaggerated expectations, though I'm sure the place can be doing well if flexing some muscles.
What you're missing here is context. Argentina and Brazil are almost opposites - the former has great geography but has screwed up too much to properly utilize is, while the latter has awful geography but successfully tapped into the world economy during the late 80s to a massive gain in porpserity. Brazil's economy, however, is massively tied to the international market, and its internal infrastructure is too awful for it to meaningfully take advantage of its size to compensate. Whereas while Argentina started the 1900s as 10th in the quality of life rankings and has since spiraled, this means that there's not far to actually drop - they're in a better position to handle and take advantage of the Collapse.

The population difference is significant, and assuming Brazil didn't collapse during the Collapse the two nations are now probably equally set, but what people are getting at is that Brazil is losing much of the factors which have given it such recent success, whereas Argentina is being put in a position to leverage its advantages at long last.
Chile is likely to align with the Andean Alliance because they're historic rivals with Argentina. And while we're talking about geography, Chile's is both good and bad. The country is a long skinny strip that an enemy can cut into at many points, buuuut the Andes Mountains. The rivalry with Argentina is thus mainly limited mainly by the fact that they're on opposite sides of one of the world's biggest mountain ranges and so neither is in any shape to invade the other.

A rapidly strengthening Argentina is an Argentina that could plausibly pose a lasting threat to Chile, so they need a counterweight. Aligning with Brazil is a possibility, but Brazil probably doesn't have much incentive to get into costly clashes with Argentina over Chilean interests, and Brazil is a bit iffy as an ally anyway, because they get a lot of Russian aid and their government isn't any too stable when viewed at first glance.

Getting Chile into the Andean Alliance also makes it a bit simpler for those countries to come up with some kind of mutually agreeable arrangement for not screwing each other over on mineral resources- one likely early point for cooperative discussion.
The Andean Alliance would have to choose between Chile and Bolivia, and to a lesser extent Peru - the War of the Pacific is a large part of the reason that Chile is so relatively successful while the other two are such wrecks today, and especially Bolivia holds a burning grudge to the date. I could see Chile aligning with the Pact for economic benefits, but the geography and conflicts would some of the members would make a full inclusion impractical.

It should also be pointed out that the Andes Mountains make it functionally impossible for a conventional war to be waged between the two nations, so a conflict would occur through economic and diplomatic channels. Argentina also doesn't have any really good reasons to be so aggressive - today relations between the two countries are fine - so it's quite possible that the entire thing would be a non-issue. Another question to be put under the "how competent is Argentina's new government" tab.
Ehhh.

I think that having fifty years of NOT being actively kept in a subordinate position by the US, and just having time to grow and develop without the sabotage that's basically blown the US all the way back to the 19th century in terms of per capita wealth and done a pretty rough job on a lot of the rest of the world... I think South America is now in a relatively good position to deal with Americans on equal terms if they can present a reasonably unified front.

One of the US's big historical advantages has been US ties to various powerful elite factions in Latin America, which we've been intentionally cultivating for centuries. Those ties are gone now, which inherently makes any kind of economic or strategic threat a restored US would pose a lot less menacing.
It's highly unlikely SA would be able to present a united front. Leaving aside geopolitical conflicts as natural and ageless as the rivers and mountains themselves, something that hasn't been addressed is the ideological angle. South America is a hotbed for extremist movements and suffers some of the most extreme wealth inequality in the world - it's not a question of if but how many nations would succumb to revolutions. Needless to say, relations between the various competing movements are unlikely to be cordial, even after the demagogues burn out and are replaced by 'Georgian bank-robbers' who can properly practice realpolitik.

It really does come down to geography, however. The United States + Canada, presumably, has some of the best in the world. The greatest navigable rivers, the most natural recourses, the best farmland, you name it. This makes every component of governing and economics simpler and easier, and is more or less directly responsible for the United States being the most powerful and prosperous country in the world.

This is in stark comparison with South America, whose geography is with - the sole exception of Argentina - absolute ass. Jungles, mountains, hills, no natural harbors, rampant disease, lack of proper winters ... you name it. All of this makes every part of running a country and economy much more difficult, and it is not an exception that placing a map of that type of land overlaid with a mao of places defined as a "developing nation" will reveal a near-total overlap. South America's unique quality of immunity to Alexander's plot armor has provided them with their time in the sun, but that quality will fall away with the collapse of Russia's bloody hegemony even without the return of the United States.

When you add-in stuff like the fact that California has not, in fact, totally collapsed and could give the Continent a run for its money in its own right once it throws off the Russians and reclaims Cascadia, or however wealthy New York is in this universe? It wouldn't be immediate, but the South American nations would see themselves be inevitably eclipsed once again by their northern neighbor. Such are the laws of geopolitics, once removed from the whims of arbitrary authors.
 
Yeah, I figure that South America will be cautious when interacting with any significant revivalist faction. But not terrified just due to the fact that they've had the time to build up without American intervention whilst all the old hooks have either been torn out, killed off or just died due to no longer being relevant.

So they'd basically be something like the USA and western Europe now. Cautious and definitely making sure they can stand on their own, but also open to trade and friendly relationships. It's just they will also be a bit more militant about ensuring that those friendly trade and diplomatic relationships stay relatively equal.

The big question mark is going to be Mexico and Central America. Fortunately for us, Mexico's got the choice of either grabbing the territory that even the other Americans have gone out of their way to render valueless (Texas) thanks to their seeming 'betrayal' or, well, the territory that California either claims, holds influence over or believes is in their sphere.

The first option is unlikely to be taken because the reunified Mexico is poor enough without taking on a bunch of hostile territory that will just suck down unimaginable amounts of wealth to turn productive. Or the territory that is the last reminder of the old USA's military might. At least until Hellfire Burns and his unit become more known. This is all only for the short term of course, though in the long term Texas is probably going to be split up amongst a bunch of American factions making taking it more painful even before you consider how the large revivalist powers will regard it.

Central America in the other hand is either too puppets to have an apparent independent opinion... Or in too much disorder and disfunction to be able to do anything about it. Kind of like the modern day in a way, but for different reasons.
 
From my admittedly limited understanding of South American geopolitics, my take is that Brazil will be on top. Alex has to engage in friendly terms with Brazil, but not with Argentina. Brazil has to kept wealthy and green to avoid them burning the Amazon during the Collapse, which may or may not trickle down to Argentina as a result of the strong real then going out and buying materials from the same. Nevertheless, Brazil will have the contacts, the population and the head start to make their presence a big one.

As for power blocs. Brazil-Chile is a no-brainer. They've been enjoying friendly relations for almost 150 years as of 2070, and both are interested in containing Argentina. Bolivia will be pressured, by hook or by crook to support the two for its lithium, not always probably with success as Bolivia is still angry that their coast was conquered in the 1800's, leading to Argentina swooping in. Peru, from relations with Bolivia and less-than-chilly relations with Chile will likely join the Argentine team. Colombia is a toss-up. Both Brazil and Peru have a sort of on-again, off-again relationship, and the Argentine one is coldly professional.
 
The question isn't if Brazil is on top. It's how strong are their competitors, how stable are they, and how much has Russia turned against them as it became clear that they were rapidly becoming the only major power in South America. Because there's no way the Tsar is going to leave someone as independent as Brazil without any local rivals if he can do anything about it. And by the time it starts to matter, Brazil should be strong enough to withstand the loss of Russian support and the world is recovering enough that if Brazil does anything problematic to the Amazon, the whole world drops on them for working against the environmental rescue effort.
 
Alexander's efforts here consist of directly invading Panama, and then using blunt economic and military force to intimidate those remaining into doing as he says. Aside from Mexico, we'd see much less of him outright collapsing nation-states; what he wants out of the region is not any sort of conquest, and with one glaring exception -- Venezuela -- he has little reason to want them permanently destroyed. In fact, if the various states on the Caribbean can economically contribute to it, then all to Alexander's benefit.

By 2047, major operations in the Caribbean come to an end, regardless of whether or not their objectives are complete, as the Caribbean Fleet is pulled off-station in order to participate in the Pacific War (the downside of not using Japan for the war is that Alexander has to intervene himself even though he hasn't really built a fleet for that theater and has to pull in other ships to do so). By the time the ships come back, the new command has gotten used to simply holding ground and reporting success, so the pressure to be aggressive has passed. From here on, Russian forces mainly act to preserve the status quo, wherein they have secured control over the overall region, but left some nations largely uncoerced. This carries us through to the modern day.

I think this is good, and it fits within a general narrative of Alexander still operating within some limits. No matter how much he wants to, he can't turn every nation into a puppet dancing on his strings. America and China get broken up; South America just isn't important enough to bother with destabilizing, and he still wants some trading partners.

One minor nitpick: Why not use Japan for the Pacific War? I know that they're idiots who snatch up every bit of land they can get their hands on, and they're the Italy of the Russia-India-Japan alliance, but they have a major colonial presence next door in Cascadia. It seems like it would be a lot easier to subsidize them then to send the Caribbean Fleet through the Canal to operate at the end of a very, very long line of supply.
 
I think this is good, and it fits within a general narrative of Alexander still operating within some limits. No matter how much he wants to, he can't turn every nation into a puppet dancing on his strings. America and China get broken up; South America just isn't important enough to bother with destabilizing, and he still wants some trading partners.

One minor nitpick: Why not use Japan for the Pacific War? I know that they're idiots who snatch up every bit of land they can get their hands on, and they're the Italy of the Russia-India-Japan alliance, but they have a major colonial presence next door in Cascadia. It seems like it would be a lot easier to subsidize them then to send the Caribbean Fleet through the Canal to operate at the end of a very, very long line of supply.
They were still consolidating their hold on Cascadia. They absolutely let Russia base out of them, but they didn't participate.
 
One of the things I haven't seen mentioned regarding the Caribbean islands and Central America is that, given the current spate of nasty hurricanes, some of them may have been just flattened. Because, IIRC, climate change has not gotten any worse, but nor has it gotten any better, either. And several decades of no outside support combined with bad storms would likely do Bad Things to any sort of organization there.
 
Kinda late, but
Because in the relevant time period (2035-50, roughly), Victoria is undergoing White Supremacist Year Zero. It's in no shape to manufacture pharmaceuticals or medical equipment or much of anything else except wandering death squads and human trafficking victims.

Puerto Rico, meanwhile, is a relatively helpless island that has the facilities to make something valuable, but no means of posing a threat or somehow acting as the basis of a reunited America (Alexander's bugbear). Exactly the kind of polity that can be trivially subordinated into the Russosphere with a casual flex of military and economic muscle, on terms strict enough to ensure that they don't mess up anything Alexander doesn't want messed, but not so strict as to inspire revolts.

Alexander breaks things because he doesn't want to have to deal with potential rivals. Puerto Rico isn't a rival; it's loose change that fell out of the pocket of the rival he just broke.
Fair point.
I'll give you that much.

That is VERY true in the modern international order. It is less true in a relatively lawless environment, or one where there is no clear hegemony, or where the hegemony doesn't care that you rob someone unless it's a friend of theirs.

Victoria, for example, will no doubt buy just about anything and not give a shit that you stole it from a foreign ship, as long as the ship in question wasn't under Russian protection. The Caribbean is in real danger, in a situation like this, of breaking down into the maritime equivalent of the post-Collapse Midwest: lots of little warlords, periodically terrorized by the big boys whenever they come through. But "lots of little warlords" equates to "piracy" in an ocean region.
Victoria is several thousand kilometers from the Caribbean, and any pirates would have to pass FCNY.
Nor does it have any interest in international trade anyway. Nor is there any indication that it suddenly turned into a pirate mecca, which would not help their resort business anyway.

And critically, most of the things that international trade does involve are not fungible.
How do you fence bauxite ore? Or crude oil? Or lithium ore? The places that buy those things are also the best regulated. How long can you keep a grain shipment before it starts to spoil? Who will buy random heavy machinery without technical support?

How do you even unload all that shit?
Port facilities are big and expensive, and require considerable infrastructure investment and ongoing investment both in personnel and maintenance. How do you hide the ship from searchers when its late and its AIS beacon is broadcasting precisely where it is?

Will your pirate port facilities survive a driveby visit from a Euro/African/Colombian/Brazilian frigate with a deckload of cruise missiles?
Or even just something like a Danish Absalon-class with a 5-inch deck gun and a company of Marines onboard?
Modern day pirates concentrate on ransom for a reason; attracting seriousface, gloves off nationstate attention generally is bad for business.


The big difference is that pirates can get away with operating smaller ships, more infrequently, than the merchants they prey upon. Keeping up a fuel supply would be a problem, and it might well be a limiting factor on piracy in the region, but if the economy of the Caribbean is so poor that fuel for ships can't be had at any relevant price, then the region has other bigger problems of its own... and so does the global economy.
The problem as I see it, is that the sort of piracy is rather straightforward to deter.

Put a squad of Marines or PMC mercs on board your nation-flagged ship with heavy weapons and maybe a couple remote weapon stations(a Kongsberg RWS is apparently <90k, and can be fitted with a variety of weapons including nonlethals, HMGs, autocannon and anti-tank missiles) and it becomes straight up impossible without the pirates owning naval ships with medium-caliber cannons or the ship crew mutinying.

That sort of milspec weaponry is not permissible in RL because late stage capitalism is all about minimizing costs, and because nationstates provide sealane security. And frankly because no one trusts the sort of people who become mercs with govt-supplied heavy weapons while sailing into international civilian ports.

In a situation where we are talking about a significant breakdown of the international order and nationstates are invested in maintaining their supplies, those scruples go away. Shipping security would probably be bread and butter for international PMCs.

False comparison.
The comparison isn't between supporting these overseas islands economically and spending money settling refugees. It's on supporting these overseas islands economically and NOT supporting them, including not spending money to integrate them as refugees, because the money just ain't there. Because, ahem...
I'll grant you that they may be able to find extremely cheap ways to help those particular locals. The big complication is...
The EU cant be taking in millions of largely white refugees from the US, Canada, Switzerland and the UK, and abandoning its own legal, browner citizens to fend for themselves in EU territory. That's basically handing Alexander and the Okhrana a wedge issue to slip right into the heart of the EU as an entity, compounding the extant crisis of confidence after they proved incapable of preventing the Baltics, Romania and Bulgaria falling to Alexander's ambitions.

Nor will it do it's diplomacy in subsaharan Africa or South America any favors either.
And that's without considering the specific problem of places like the Netherlands, which owns half the EU territories in the Caribbean(France owns the rest) and which is about 15% non-European descent.

You are arguing that the EU cannot afford to support its citizens for financial reasons.
Im arguing that in this sort of situation, the EU cannot afford NOT to support them. The non-material costs far outweigh the financial costs required to keep said places on life support.


...See, this is the big thing.

Europe is here undergoing a major, and actively enhanced by Alexander, economic collapse. In the middle of that, they have to maintain an extensive military buildup, because they need to rapidly transition from "we spend 1% of GDP on the military, continentwide, due to lack of pressing military threat" to "oh shit there's a pressing military threat, and half our member states have collapsed so the other half have to spend even MORE money proportionately speaking."

Will they be maintaining French Guiana as a launch site? Maybe Dunno. It depends on what their alternatives are. They will be doing literally the cheapest possible things in many, many, many areas involving anything BUT military security, and even in military security they'll be scrimping and saving where possible, because military muscle is the only thing deterring Alexander from sending Little Green Men in to take over another tier of countries.
1) The European Union in this AU kicked the US off the continent in the aftermath of alt!Trump defaulting on US debt in 2016 and then demanding that they pay him for protection. That was 17 years before the US collapsed.
This is not coming at them out of the blue.

2) To be fair, they have mainland alternatives for sat launch. Like Andoya. But they'd have to invest a lot of billions to get it up to snuff.
Guiana just happens to be the cheapest and safest option because of its geography.

Cheapest because its equator location gives the most slingshot assist for space launches.
Safest because a malfunctioning rocket out of somewhere like Andoya would drop into populated mainland Europe, while one out of French Guiana would drop into the South Atlantic.

And its not valuable to any of its neighbors. So not at physical threat.

3) Spain split but reassembled peacefully.
France schismed and had civil unrest, but did not suffer sectarian conflict. Italy fractured, and may have fought a civil war. Greece is a battleground; that implies ongoing conflict of some sort, whether covert or overt is not stated.

Croatia is EU, and on the borders of Serbia going to war with Kosovo, but is not at war itself. Neither Serbia nor Kosovo are EU members.
Switzerland collapsed, but is not EU. The UK collapsed, but was not EU at the time. North Macedonia is applying, but is not currently EU.
The rest of the Balkans is in turmoil, but not EU.

Its worth remembering that most of the EU's stabilization problems stated on the information page, the things swallowing time and resources, are in its near abroad, not in the EU proper.

4) The EU retained enough economic strength to keep Finland out of Alexanders jaws. For Poland to contest Russian expansionism. For Alexander's ambitions towards Germany not to have ever had a significant chance of realization.

They did this while researching and implementing a full switchover of their entire economy away from fossil fuels to renewable energy, while doing their best to stabilise their frontier areas and maintaining support for the FCNY. All of this while struggling under the artificial malus of an Alexander-implemented oil price spike in the middle of a Cold War that occasionally got very warm(the Romanian Affair).

That puts a floor on precisely how much economic and military power the EU retained even in the depths of the Collapse.


We may see false economies, too- the EU collectively fails to maintain the launch site for long enough that it falls apart, then they have to spend more to compensate in some other way (e.g. building a new site somewhere they didn't lose control of, or rebuilding the site in Guiana, or developing military capabilities that function adequately without satellite support).

Come to think of it, Alexander almost certainly has viable ASAT capabilities, probably including space-based lasers if he wants to. It may not be such a great idea to rely on having satellites if you're planning to fight him.
1) Today, about 70 something nations currently have satellites partly or wholly owned or leased in orbit.From the usual suspects, down to places like Sudan, Nepal and Rwanda. Thats how increasingly important(and accessible) it is to even small nations.

Maintaining the Galileo navigation network, for example, is necessary for maintaining military capability and a significant portion of the civilian economy. Cars, ships and aircraft rely on GPS-analogues for navigation, just for one example.
So do a lot of smart weapons.

Then there's weather satellites. Communications satellites. Environmental monitoring satellites. Recon satellites.
Not to mention that its also a high technology jobs program.

So no, I do not agree.
The EU will have maintained satellite launch capability all through the Collapse as both a natsec and economic imperative, ever since the US allowed alt!Trump to shit the bed economically and militarily in 2016, so they would be uncoupled from relying on US systems.

2)China, the US, Russia and India all have publicly demonstrated ASAT capabilitiy; Israel is believed to as well. Its doesn't seem to be all that hard to shoot down an LEO satellite once you have indigenous space launch capability, or invest in exoatmospheric ballistic missile interceptors.

But shooting down a recon sat in LEO is a very different kettle of fish from attempting to knock down a global positioning constellation in geostationary orbit. Both the costs and the risks(Kessler cascade) are significantly higher.
And launch costs for satellites are way down anyway; from the ~54,000 dollars/kg of the Space Shuttle to ~2700 dollars/kg today to LEO.

3) A scenario where Alexander has exclusive access to space weapons would look very different from what we have now.
 
3) A scenario where Alexander has exclusive access to space weapons would look very different from what we have now.
Anyone think Spaceborn Sabotage on Sattalites and Space stations is a thing?

I don't know if I'm speaking madness or something but that would make for a fun story for the EU's capabilities.

Not to mention with the abilities and strategic Importance of controlling space in our own Modern day society, or at least theoretically in the future.

Call Trump a complete idiot now, and I don't blame you, but Space Force's mandate of space security may have translated to the EU's Space Force Mandate in keeping Russia from having control of Space.

Or I could be speaking smoke.

But having space as a battleground is actually interesting. storywise
 
Here's the second reply.
Here's the 2016 census headline results. For more data you can pour over, see here. This graph based on UN data gives you a good sense of the population dynamics over time. The economy and population are too small to see the sort of smooth growth you are used to in larger economies, because individual decisions to have a baby or start a business are a much larger part of the overall average.
Thank you.


There's a few things to keep in mind though:
1) As a rule Islanders don't eat fish (just one of those local cultural oddities) and there's no local fishing besides sport fishing in the local rivers, which is itself rare. So in a collapse situation, people aren't going to be breaking out the fishing boats.

2) Fishing fleets from the outside need the fuel, good maintenance and organization to reach the South Atlantic and stay there. Depending on exactly how the collapse unfolds, that may not be possible. Certainly at the point where the Falkland Islands government cant fuel its own vessels, how many companies or independent captains will be able to do so?
1) That's an interesting piece of data.

2) They're not really independent. Most of that seems to be overtly or covertly subsidised by govt policy.
China, Taiwan, Japan,South Korea and Spain account for 90% of the distance fishing fleet.
www.seafoodsource.com

Five countries account for 90 percent of distant-water fleet effort

The global distant-water fishing industry benefits just a handful of fishing countries, a new report has found.
Some of that is commercial, but a lot of it is domestic consumption.
The Japanese fishing fleet is certainly not having any trouble sourcing fuel.

The Falklands fed itself before the war and the climate is good enough that you can raise enough food to keep a population as small as that on the Islands fed on a reasonably varied diet (though with the fish aversion, the main source of omega 3 oils is sheep brains, yummmm). Though these days, the Falklands are very much NOT food independent since it makes more economic sense to work for money and use money to buy food, rather than grow most of your own food in your own garden. So again, it very much depends exactly how the collapse happens. If the collapse is sudden and lasts longer than an emergency diet of almost exclusively sheep-meat can sustain the population, things would look pretty bad.

As far as medical personnel go, yeah, the current (very good) health infrastructure of the Falklands can't be maintained without trade and migration links to the outside, but the great majority of ensuring good health revolves around preventative measures, the state of hygiene and the state of education - things that don't require an extensive health infrastructure.
I defer to your local knowledge.

The EU is a large enough trading partner of both Brazil and Argentina that an EU aegis probably deters any "Its free real estate" inclinations post-Brexit Collapse of the UK. And even in the event of the Collapse of the UK, the Netherlands(for instance) has hundreds of thousands of citizens in the Caribbean, so tacking on enough economic support for another 4k people should be a marginal increase in cost.


A slower collapse would help maintain oil output for sure.
Ummmm. I mean. A civil war that is less than 17 years isn't at all implausible.
A country as unified as China breaking up and re-forming within 17 years without violence definitely is.

Look at any case of an empire breaking apart, and by far the most usual way it happens is along the bounderies of pre-existing local subdivisions. The USSR fractured along the lines of dividing the SSRs. China and Iran during previous periods of disunion have fractured along the lines of regional military command areas (which is why we call the last period of Chinese disunity the "warlord era"). The British Empire for the most part broke up along the lines of previously established colonial/dominion boundaries. As did the other colonial empires. The US Civil War only involved one state actually breaking up - for the most part the borders between the Union and Confederacy were previously existing state and territory boundaries.

And generally, the exceptions involve previously existing cultural or religious divides, like the religious differences between North and South Ireland, or the ethnic differences between Moldova and Transdniestria.

And situations like the "velvet divorce" between the Czech Republic and Slovakia are very unusual. Even when something can't really be called a civil war, there is generally some degree of violence.

So ya. China just falling apart and falling back together with no violence seems really darn odd to me. The only significant divide in China is the North/South divide, between the politically more important and industrially declining North and the less politically powerful but economically dynamic South. Tibet and Xingjiang are big on the map, but very little of China's population and economy are in those Western regions, so while they might have gained independence for a short time or still be independent in the 2070s, they're like insects compared to even half of China's core. As such, I can imagine a scenario where the Chinese Communist Party loses its grip under the buffeting of disaster after disaster and there's a period of confusion in which two major successor regimes emerge, one in Northern China, and one in Southern China. But I expect both regimes would very much consider themselves "China" and would be working to quickly decide who got to form the nucleus of the new united China.

Not wanting to open themselves up too much to Russian or Japanese intervention might keep the violence between claimants from becoming too severe, and the division may be ended by negotiation, but I would expect there to be at least low-level skirmishes every so often. Alternatively, I would expect to see a short, sharp civil war. Or a longer civil war drawn out by Russia, Japan and India playing games.
The weapons available to a Great Power like China would not have left it a nation capable of acting on the international stage if they'd been engaged in a civil war. Especially not with India, Japan and Russia all interested in prolonging and exacerbating any such conflict.
They'd still be inwardly focused on trying to repair damage, not gearing up for a Japanese beatdown.

Almost as importantly, its worth looking at the actions of its imperial expansionist neighbors when China was fractured.

Imperial Japan did not go on to conquer North Korea while China was schismed; instead NK is a Chinese protectorate. It skipped over Taiwan to go conquer the Phillipines despite Taiwan being closer and much weaker than the South Korea it invaded, and much richer than the Phillipines.
It didnt even think of advancing any territorial ambitions on the Chinese mainland.

All of this points at a China that didn't undergo significant military conflict, and where major military forces remained.

I think the idea that France will (relatively) peacefully splinter is a nonsensical idea also.
Given the source material this quest is based on, I accept that this world will be full of silly things happening so that Lind's dumb ideas can appear to work for a couple decades, but I will still call out the silliness for what it is.
Plot fiat.
Like the Vics managing a halfway effective military force on the other side of the North American continent in the face of a nuke-armed Californian military. Or the idea that Russian destabilization didn't get an ICBM or 20x.

If you're trying to rationalize it, consider that both Belgium and Germany are next door.
And neither want to see a nuclear weapons state fall into civil war on their borders. Russia is not the only place that can interfere in the internal affairs of other countries after all,, and German reluctance to get militarily involved does not preclude diplomatic or espionage efforts..

My headcanon has been that Germany, Netherlands and the Scandis have been working overtime on the internal EU diplomacy front, even while Poland went all-in on the military/covert ops front.
Less flashy than military resistance. As important.

Blessed are the REMFs, because logistics wins wars. Even cold wars.
I love that source chart. Still. Overall manufacturing output gives no indication about how much of a particular sector is in any one country. The UK still puts out a respectable portion of world manufacturing, but makes no important parts of a modern hard disk and has no cutting edge chip foundries. Also, the US role in the world oil market is not limited to only manufacturing - US firms are major players in consulting and in oil financing. Before the current crisis in Venezuela, one of the reasons why oil output was steadily declining is because it was not willing or able to access the cutting edge oil extraction technology that pretty much only comes from the US. Or comes from non-US firms that are nonetheless completely enmeshed in the US oil industry. Attempts by regimes with hostile or uneasy relations with the US to develop self-sufficiency in their local oil industries have completely failed. Though notably those failures have also attempted to free themselves from dependence on Western Europe also.

Still, given the complete dominance US firms have over fracking technology (which has increasing relevance to what used to be called "conventional" oil drilling, to the point that it may not be sensible to talk about a difference between the two) and the financial infrastructure of the oil industry make me dubious that Western Europe can maintain the world oil industry on its here-and-now footing, or even close to it. Especially with the UK (perhaps the second most important player in the oil industry service sector) falling into a bad civil war.
Making electric vehicles and building power plants are completely different branches of industrial technology. Humans are now slurping up the dregs of the planet's oil reserves. It is a very specialized branch of finance, technology and engineering reliant on over a century of experience.
There's enough capacity outside the US that output won't fall to zero, but it will fall considerably.
Shell, Eni, Total and BP are heavily enmeshed in the US oil industry. Sinopec, Petrobras and Gazprom are very much reliant on the West to maintain current levels of effectiveness.
17 years of progressive decline in the United States post-2016 is a lot of time for multinationals to hedge their bets.
And the interregnum between the Collapse proper and the Pacific War is enough for the remaining technical expertise to flee. Finance is the easy part after all; skilled human capital is hard to replace.

I mean, Royal Dutch Shell is Anglo-Dutch.
Doesn't meant they didnt see the UK stabbing itself in the gut and move their center of gravity back into the Netherlands. Or that much of the skillbase in the Texan oil industry would look at the Texan militia claiming reponsibility for nuking Atlanta and stick around.


Yeah, I was just thinking the same myself.

The Amazon basin has been teetering on the edge of becoming a desert since the ice age ended, its current ecology is maintained by the rainforest being engaged in a constant process of self-terraforming. If Bazil collapses, probably the Amazon collapses. And with it, the world climate would change significantly. Thus, the quest MUST be set in a world where Brazil has stayed strong and has protected the rainforest effectively.

This also means that the other countries who hold part of the Amazon basin - Colombia, Venezuela, Guiana, French Guiana, Suriname, Bolivia and Peru - if they have collapsed they must have collapsed in a way that has not threatened their parts of the rainforest - perhaps because Brazil just annexed those territories, perhaps because they haven't been allowed to collapse, or perhaps because of something else.

As such, Brazil is either an ally of Russia or it is an indispensable rival. A state that opposes Alexander but that he must work with to some degree because he needs the Amazon. Brazil as Russia's most important enemy anyone?
(Certainly I think Brazil would be more capable of opposing Russia than the EU at this point.)

fasquardon
Enemy? That's probably going a little far. If Alexander could not afford to fuck with Brazil or most of South America, you probably dont have the same depth of feeling you'll see in China or the EU or North America. He wont be popular, not while people can look north at his fuckery in Mexico. But the loathing is less....visceral.

Rival? Definitely.
No regional or emergent great power would look at a nation indiscriminately destabilizing multiple nations in its vicinity and be comfortable with said hegemon maintaining a proxy in its general area.

I'm actually looking forward to making Alexander genuinely popular in at least one nation in the world.
But thats gonna wait till we get to subsaharan Africa.

Well... Keep in mind that at the time that Alexander is launching his attacks, Russia will have very few young people to man large armies of conquest. The collapse of the Soviet Union amplified the demographic disaster of WW2. It also led to a collapse of the education system, so furnishing that military with enough high-skill specialists while also keeping the civilian economy together is pretty well impossible. Each conquest is going to bleed that military and will require portions of that military to be assigned to garrison duty. By the time Alexander gets to Poland and Finland it is entirely possible that if he doesn't go nuclear (assuming that the shortage of high-skill specialists hasn't forced Russia to mothball its entire nuclear force) Poland and Finland can stop Russia on their own.

Alexander needs a chain of miracles to even be able to manage as much as has been locked in. All that is needed to stop him at the Polish and Finnish borders is that he gets no more miracles. Which in turn means that the EU can be a military and economic fruitcake and still not be militarily inferior to the shredded remnants of Russia's military might.
After having done his best to blow up the United States and Canada, then followed it up by sitting on California, and somehow lucked out in having the Chinese govt spontaneously collapse? China and the US are no1 and no2 in RnD spending far and away.
Japan is 3, India is 6, Russia is 9. Germany is 4, Brazil is 7, UK is 8, France is 10, Italy is 12, Australia is 14, Spain is 15, and so o

With the loss of much of the RnD grunt out of China and the US, the largest remaining contiguous research nexus in the world would have been in the EU and to a much lesser extent Australia.

Japan is a biggie, but there are allegedly cultural issues, and they are cut off from the West's research community.
Then they went ahead and wrecked no 5 South Korea's RnD community by invading the place.Both India and Russia were still spooling up their research communities. SubSaharan Africa's RnD basically didnt exist at this point. And the climate clock is ticking.

US refugees with technical skills were not going to willingly go to Alexander's Russia in any numbers, not after he backed Victoria. Some would have gone to the Arctic, a lot more to FCNY, but the rest would have gone anywhere but Russia. The only major alternative was the EU.
So I think a lot of the greentech that Alexander's plans originally relied on came out of Europe.

Wasn't necessarily field tested or mass produced there, but was developed there.

Note that the EU managed to crash convert its entire energy system from fossil fuels to renewables while under military threat and economic pressure. Thats a pretty impressive baseline. Im getting the impression of a political entity that, while gravely wounded, was more tied up with internal and regional affairs than one that lacked the power to function.



Argintina would def be on top I think. Not quite regional hegemon but first among equals at least. Probably the nation with the most abilityin influencing events in North America as well.
Brazil is 5x its population and is the 8th largest economy in the world by GDP(1.36 trillion dollars nominal, 3.08 trillion dollars PPP).
Argentina would be competing with Columbia for 2nd place, and it has some advantages that its rival dont have(like Brazil, its a nuclear threshold state) but 1st place is definitely taken.

It would be a favored destination for US expats that couldnt make it to the EU for one reason or the other.
Much of South America would: Brazil, Argentina, Columbia, Chile.
A historical curiosity is that Brazil still has a city founded by defeated Confederates after the US Civil War.

I like "Andean EU/NATO" better than a weird mega-Colombia.
MERCOSUR is a thing.
And Argentina and Brazil have a weird sorta bilateral commission verification thing for their nuclear programs to ensure they stay civilian.
A lot of the supranational regional structures already exist, and are independent of the wider international order.

South America has many bitter memories of what it's like living in the United States's back yard. They may not be down for active suppression, and they may not be antagonistic, but very few other people in your hemisphere would cheer outright for a reunification.
To the best of my knowledge(and note that I'm not an expert on Latin America) the places the United States directly screwed over are in Central America and the Caribbean. South America was always the US coming in and lending help and aid to some reactionary faction whose professed aims aligned with that of the United States.

One of the US's big historical advantages has been US ties to various powerful elite factions in Latin America, which we've been intentionally cultivating for centuries. Those ties are gone now, which inherently makes any kind of economic or strategic threat a restored US would pose a lot less menacing.
This.
The US had its fingers all over the various dirty wars in Argentina, Chile and Brazil.
But it didnt actually got directly involved; all it did was provide technical support and diplomatic cover.
 
But having space as a battleground is actually interesting. storywise
An Alexander with exclusive space weapon access is well on his way to global military supremacy.
Short of opening up with nukes, there's very few options for stopping someone who has emplaced an orbital weapon network that can hit anyone anywhere it can see. Even ICBMs and cruise missiles would suffer significant attrition since they'd have to run a gauntlet to get to their targets.

Since we dont have such a situation, its safe to say that isnt a thing.
 
Since we dont have such a situation, its safe to say that isnt a thing.
More akin to sabotaging Sattalites and getting them out of orbit and less Rods of God boss, that's what I was going for.

Edit: Hell, Sabatoging the Rods of God and getting them out of Orbit is something that could have happened...of course maybe the tech was dropped due to, rising costs and Eco Tech priorities. (Of course its all Hypothetical, we aren't the QM)
 
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To the best of my knowledge(and note that I'm not an expert on Latin America) the places the United States directly screwed over are in Central America and the Caribbean. South America was always the US coming in and lending help and aid to some reactionary faction whose professed aims aligned with that of the United States.
I know that, and to the people actually living under those reactionary regimes, the difference can occasionally be somewhat academic.
 
More akin to sabotaging Sattalites and getting them out of orbit and less Rods of God boss, that's what I was going for.

Edit: Hell, Sabatoging the Rods of God and getting them out of Orbit is something that could have happened...of course maybe the tech was dropped due to, rising costs and Eco Tech priorities. (Of course its all Hypothetical, we aren't the QM)
If you are shooting down other people's satellites, they'll respond in kind.
And they don't need to put satellites in orbit to do it; both the Russians and US have fighter-launched ASAT designs since the 1980s, and anyone with space launch capability can design a warhead for killing satellites that they can put on top of a groundlaunched rocket.

Rods from God are a largely useless weapon system at our level of technology. They are not cost-effective for the amount of effort you are taking to put something like that in orbit. At launch costs of 2700 dollars per kg, it will cost you approximately 2.7 million dollars to put a ton of tungsten rods in orbit, not counting the targeting equipment, re-entry motors, fuel and whatnot. And then you'll have to perform maintenance. In space.

That same price will buy you 2-3 Tomahawk missiles, each with a thousand pound warhead and up to 2500km range.

I know that, and to the people actually living under those reactionary regimes, the difference can occasionally be somewhat academic.
I lack both lived and academic experience, so I'm not going to argue the point.
 
Second Draft On South And Central America
Last time we established the overall framework we're trying to work with. Now, in response to feedback, I'll be slotting individual countries into the mold.
  • Caribbean America. Theme: Early Successes, Slipping Grasp
    • Puerto Rico
      • Alexander's first blow at Panama came after the PRC collapsed; he needed to have a foothold prior to then. A trans-Atlantic naval invasion is not the ideal starting point for your navy. Puerto Rico, meanwhile, was the unhappy recipient of (part of) Victoria's tide of deported Hispanic-Americans. With the collapse of the United States, it was in a desperate situation. Furthermore, as others have pointed out, Puerto Rico is home to a lot of manufacturing facilities for pharmaceuticals.
      • So, Alexander comes in after the refugees hit. He has an offer to make: food and money, if Puerto Rico will give him basing rights, and sell only to him. Desperate and frankly incapable of standing on their own with things as they are, the Governor agrees. In the years to come, Russia tightens its grip; Puerto Rico has no means of fighting back, despite the hotbed of Revivalist sentiment on the island as labor standards collapse and demands on the amount of product they make soar.
      • Puerto Rico will be Alexander's initial base of operations in the Caribbean. Today it is a seething hive of Revivalist sentiment, but cannot resist Russia to any meaningful degree. All of Puerto Rico's citizens were Americans, whether or not they were fully enfranchised; the present Russian regime is a bitter contrast even to the state of servitude the island was held in prior to the Collapse. There are likely people shooting at Russians from the hills, and Russia is likely precisely as concerned as this warrants.
    • Jamaica.
      • No Caribbean nation bore the strain of the Collapse well; with a military whose officer tradition was dependent on outsourcing to British and Canadian schools and no native military production, Jamaica's position was best described as, "terrifyingly precarious." Alexander simply happened to get there first. Using Puerto Rico as a staging point, Alexander launched an intervention in Jamaica, supposedly to restore order to the suffering nation. He never left; Russian units remain, propping up a collaborationist government, to this day.
      • Jamaica was the launch point for Alexander's strike on Panama. Today it is just as resentful of its place as Puerto Rico, and just as helpless.
    • Minor Island Nations And Various Overseas Territories
      • Nommed by Alexander at some point irrelevant to the story. They were never going to affect things. To varying degrees, they are Russian fleet bases, and receive precisely as much investment as they need to remain not an active problem from the increasingly stretched and unambitious Caribbean Fleet Command in Colón. Some sit atop vital routes of trade or supply for Russia's presence and commercial operations, and do not breathe without permission. Some enjoy de facto independence as long as they make the right mouth noises. This may make sense from a force conservation perspective, but it doesn't do the solidity of Russia's grasp on the region any favors...
    • The Bahamas
      • Your ambassadors in Miami inform you that the Bahamas appear to be one of those island nations that have secured some measure of meaningful independence. They have representatives at the Miami Congress. Not members, precisely, because they're referred to as Sitting Ambassadors (in full, every time, and you will be corrected if you truncate it) rather than Delegates (who are themselves apparently distinct from the Senators they sit next to), but they can vote (with one vote, for the entire delegation, which is still for some reason fixed at a membership of seven, all of whom must be present in order to cast that vote), but only in the Senate (the lower house, as distinct from the upper house, the Conference, where the Sitting Ambassadors may attend but not vote), and much like everything else to do with Miami's mind-bending system of governance, your ambassadors have no idea what's going on there. They think this is some form of special association preceding membership. Probably.
      • They're probably fine.
    • Hispaniola
      • Haiti and the Dominican Republic have likely gone through some shit. With Alexander controlling Jamaica and Puerto Rico, the PRC -- during their brief period of prominence in the region -- would have sought to secure a friendly line of travel through the Caribbean, and likely would have conducted extensive outreach to one or the other of the two nations. The relationship between the two is complex; there are tensions that could be exploited. The Dominican Republic is vastly wealthier, and likely the more capable client. Haiti, on the other hand, is desperate. I can see China giving the Dominicans their support. In the early days, Alexander would have thus supported the Haitians, making Hispaniola one of the competition zones between the two powers.
      • After the PRC collapsed, of course, the Dominican Republic's position would be abruptly and terrifyingly precarious. That said, they have a fairly strong military for a nation their size, and the terrain is rough on an invading force. With everything he would have had to do, and the schedule he would have had to keep, Alexander likely would not have invaded. Certainly there would have been a standoff, likely there would have been a blockade, but the overall purpose would have been to demonstrate to the Dominicans not that they were about to be conquered, but that Alexander absolutely could make their lives miserable. Or they could talk.
      • Today, Haiti is likely an outright Russian client, while the Dominican Republic simply agrees to pro-Russian terms in order to avoid invasion.
      • This one especially is open to criticism, I'm less sure of it.
    • Cuba
      • Cuba has some experience with foreign trade being choked off. Despite the way they describe it, they were never blockaded -- an embargo is something quite different, and despite American pressure, trade even with NATO nations continued during the height of the Cold War -- but it certainly kept the flow of things restricted. During the Collapse, they got to experience a complete cessation of trade.
      • Despite this experience, Cuba is a net food importer, importing 60-70% of its food and still rationing it out, so they had to do some scrambling to convert plantation land to farmland. With things collapsing, there was, of course, no question of continuing the programs of liberalizing the economy. It was a matter of national survival, and everything needed to be managed in order to ensure people could eat.
      • When Alexander came to Cuba, it would have been suffering, but stable. Happily, a similar factor that attracted his notice in Puerto Rico would have attracted his interest in Cuba -- biomedical manufacturing. With the plantations converted to farmland and the tourism industry dead, it was one of the last options available to the island nation. It would have been simple enough to present terms they'd accept.
      • Aligned with Russian interests and once again tied into an economic bloc led by a Russian state, Cuba would have an opportunity to breathe and assess its surroundings. It would have some assets; a tradition of medical internationalism, for instance, bolstered by an economy increasingly defined by the manufacture of medical products, would be a massive boon in the era of the Collapse. Cuba is likely a lynchpin of Russian diplomacy in the Caribbean -- the soft glove to Russia's iron fist. Of course, there are less innocent sides to it. Cuba's medical programs were already dogged by reports of coerced labor and threatened denial of medical care in order to exert pressure on local politics in the course of their operations. When reinterpreted as a tool of Russosphere political enforcement, those reports are now a rather more widespread reality; criminal penalties for noncompliance to healthcare mission assignments, already harsh, has gotten worse as those missions take on an increasingly critical role in Cuba's foreign politics, and Alexander does not care for excuses when his agents report a lack of results.
      • Cuba is in an economically healthy position in the modern day, and very intimately tied into Alexander's foreign policy objectives in the Caribbean. It's in a good spot, right now. It will resist attempts at change.
    • Panama
      • The big one. Panama fell under PRC influence, and once that collapsed, Alexander moved in. The regime fell and was replaced with his own. It is, today, the absolute focus of Alexander's efforts; the base for his fleet, the home of Russian-friendly administration, and the center of Russian-sponsored development. The regime profits handsomely by this arrangement. The nation's economy runs on servicing the trade sector, even moreso than in our modern day. There is no significant, organized resistance to this arrangement -- not at the moment.
    • Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Belize
      • As far as Alexander is concerned, all of a set. Nations in Panama's neighborhood that must understand they are not to make trouble. He honestly probably didn't actually topple regimes here, but the Caribbean Fleet certainly demonstrated in force to make clear that there was a new top dog, not to be messed with. The only people to actually feel the sting would be people who elected to be recalcitrant. I'm unsure of who that might, be, and it frankly doesn't matter. It's Russian-aligned country, now.
    • Venezuela
      • Discussion in the thread has convinced me that, simultaneously, an independent and productive Venezuela is vital to the energy independence of non-Russosphere powers, and that oil extraction is relatively trivial for a determined aggressor to render nonviable. Thus, Venezuela died. Alexander spent all of the resources and manpower he could on the region here.
      • More below.
    • Columbia
      • Panama's biggest neighbor, and the biggest problem given its sheer size. It must be made friendly, and cannot realistically be subdued through main force; there's just too much of it, and Alexander has larger targets. (eyes Venezuela) There is a limit to how much overt force he can exert in the region.
      • So, for Columbia, Alexander must- (revolted shudder) -negotiate.
      • Columbia actually derives a supermajority of its energy from renewable sources. That renders them more attractive to Alexander in at least one manner. He likely offers them a deal relating to that; perhaps investing in their economy to allow them to become something of a regional hub for the manufacture of renewables -- a business endeavor that would only grow more profitable over time. It's not a bad deal, especially when the primary thing Alexander would want in return would be, "For god's sake, don't mess with with Panama." Small promise to make.
      • Then Venezuela explodes, and this makes the stakes of breaching the agreement abundantly clear. Now, Columbia has a good enough deal as far as the Collapse goes, but living with a state of ongoing chaos on their eastern border isn't really on, so after discussions with Russia -- and some extremelyspecific agreements regarding the dismantling of oil production and refining facilities -- they send in an aid mission to stabilize the regions of Venezuela that border them.
        • And hey, while they're here and getting so involved in reshaping the local economy, why not make a profit on it? The idea is to get things stable so we don't have a massive problem area on our border, of course, so we probably don't want to just set up sweatshops and piss off the locals, but we can turn a profit if we just set them up with something basically viable. There's always more of a market for renewables these days, and we're having trouble meeting American demand locally, so some Columbian-owned businesses and close cooperation with the local government on labor standards to make sure we aren't setting ourselves for more trouble later-
        • Wait, did we just annex Zulia?
        • Columbia sees dollar signs, and bits and chunks of Venezuela fall into their hands over time. Things are by no means perfect, but with the various pressures facing them, their incentive is to not fuck this up. They do, of course, occasionally fuck this up, but the overall trend is that Russian suppression missions give way, over time, to Columbian aid missions -- each equally committed to oil staying quite dead indeed. And regions Columbia takes in this manner slowly, as a natural result of political and economic integration, grown closer to their new patron.
      • At some point, some folks begin to observe that Columbia controls an awful lot of what once was Gran Columbia. The idea is not proclaimed as an outright objective. No government official is going to lay even implicit claim to Panama. But the idea is alive again.
      • Overall, Columbia does well. Corruption is still likely an issue, but the future looks bright...and the politicians are keeping at least one eye on the populist movement they have inadvertently sparked.
      • They are a regional power along a similar patterns to Iran, albeit less tightly tied to Alexander and less hegemonic. Think more positive pressure via humanitarian aid than outright conquest and submission. Perhaps Ecuador gets some help; their currency is the dollar and their economy is dependent on trade. In the Collapse, without a patron, they are doomed.
        • If anything, this likely looks similar to Venezuela, to a lesser degree, and almost certainly doesn't hurt the spread of Gran Columbian sentiment.
    • Ecuador
      • As stated above. An oil export economy means it probably gets some interference from Russia or Japan at some point, and Columbia is right there, relatively stable and looking to profit.
    • The Guianas.
      • Honestly I expect these to have fallen under Brazilian influence, with that being the tripwire to make Alexander stop supporting them; once they're able to reach out and start investing in neighbors, he has no interest in propping them up any further. Brazil almost certainly does not annex these outright.
      • French Guiana
        • HEY GUYS DID YOU KNOW THAT FRENCH GUIANA IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF FRANCE AND EVERY EUROPEAN POWER WOULD LITERALLY RATHER DIE THAN SEE IT EVEN DISTANCE ITSELF FROM FRENCH RULE BECAUSE IT HAS A SPACE CENTER
        • ugh
        • Okay, so the Collapse was kind rough on countries, and they had to do this thing called prioritizing. They were collapsing. I'm not using that word because it sounds dramatic. French Guiana certainly has been effectively self-governing ever since Metropolitan France started pointing guns at one another and being really stressed about what happens if some idiot decides to bring nukes into the civil question.
        • Does Europe step in to maintain the ESA launch facilities? Probably on some level, but they really are having to bend mind, body, and soul to the task of keeping their countries generally in one piece. There's not a lot they can contribute.
        • Enter Brazil. Brazil's stable, Brazil has money. Brazil doesn't want territorial claims, or military bases, or even undue influence. Brazil just wants to help out! Brazil wants to make sure its norther border is nice and stable. Most importantly, Brazil is non-threatening, and they're offering money that French Guiana desperately needs.
          • This is where you really see a breach between French Guiana and the mainland; when Guiana makes the decision to accept Brazilian aid rather than deciding to sweat while deciding which of the -- at the time -- three factions presently calling themselves some flavor of France has the right to accept or reject that offer on their behalf. It's not independence, of course, nothing drastic. Just...a recognition of material reality.
        • Of course, now Brazil does have meaningful influence over Guiana, and with the ESA facilities kept up as part of the deal, the EU really doesn't have time to be making an issue of it. Fast forward to after the EU has some breathing space and the French mainland has come to a practical consensus on who really is France. Guiana doesn't object to reintegrating with France, not at all. That would be silly. They just want some assurances of special status. And Brazil -- helpful Brazil, kind Brazil, very invested Brazil -- is more than happy to support their buddies' efforts to ensure some measure of local autonomy and special privileges.
        • Ultimately, a deal occurs. Nobody is trying to hold the territory hostage. Everybody is quite clear that they're committed to Guiana remaining with the EU -- remaining part of France, even! It's just that Guiana now knows what it's like to make their own decisions without consulting with the metropole, and given that France is still unstable, is a bit leery of giving up the ability to keep doing that. And Brazil is just their friend. Their very helpful friend, who is quite keenly interested in having an in with the resurgent European Union.
  • Sub-Caribbean America. Theme: The Limits of Alexander's Technique
    • Brazil
      • If the Amazon goes, the planet goes. Brazil, as discussed, gets Russian funding to keep it afloat, in exchange for leaving the rainforest alone.
      • Brazil uses this grace period to tie itself back into the rebirth of international trade -- which is still ongoing -- in order to diversify its options. This, incidentally, is what keeps the machetes and wildfires away from the Amazon even after their deal with Russia ends. By this point in time, the rest of the planet is aboard the environmentalism train, and Brazil wants friends, not endless international pressure.
      • Once Brazil becomes capable of standing up on its own -- signified by their outreach in the Guianas -- Russian aid ends. In fact, Alexander's pretty alarmed by the fact he's inadvertently created a regional power unaligned with his interests ("I knew bilateral diplomacy was a liberal trap!")". So he casts around for somebody who can at least present themselves as a local peer power. And y'know who else is big in South America?
    • Argentina
      • He might be grasping at straws, here, given that Argentina has a fraction of Brazil's population and economy. But sub-Caribbean America is not the continent we look to in order to see a record of Alexander's successes.
      • Still, he supports Argentina far more enthusiastically. The economy booms thanks to the methods discussed in the last update. Argentina definitely isn't nearly as invested in making problems for Brazil as Alexander wants them to be, and he has no ability to make them develop that desire. But hey, it makes Russia angry, so they can make mouth noises at Brazil.
      • Argentina seizes the Falklands. This probably isn't spectacular for the locals but there's no real impetus for a genocide, so at least they live. Their economy certainly crash-converts to fishing and fishing alone, though.
      • Again, Argentina has basically no real reason or desire to pick a fight with Brazil, so honestly things probably aren't that eventful. I'm picturing mouth noises to keep Alexander happy -- and paying -- but in private, the nations likely assure one another of their continued good intentions, and a partnership is likely if Russia ever turns off the tap.
      • Argentina's desire not to start shit in any way, shape, or form is, aside from having no reason to pick fights with a nation they actually get along fine with and who massively outweighs them in every metric, further bolstered by-
    • Chile
      • So, Japan. They tried to eat the entire Pacific, and their grand idiocy is that it's choking them, now. Part of what they did was invest heavily in the South American West Coast, attempting to carve out a sphere of influence there. Russia was more or less fine with this, since it kept the lithium sweet, but the consequence of tying South American nations into the Russosphere, even temporarily, is that they have another avenue and incentive to talk with one another, and so Chile and Brazil got into the habit of cooperating with one another in trying to maintain some meaningful level of independence from their beneficiaries. With these two nations completely surrounding Argentina, there's no way Argentina is ever starting shit.
      • Again, nobody here actually wants a fight. Alexander is trying to apply a brand of diplomatic thought that in no way actually applies. Chile and Argentina actually have excellent diplomatic relations, IOTL. All three of these nations get along beautifully, in our modern day and the quest's. There's some rhetoric flying around, and they occasionally conduct some national security theater to keep Russia guessing that they're actually meaningfully distracted with one another, but in actuality, the southern half of the continent is honestly just pretty happy to get along and keep recovering.
      • It's as you move northwards that things start getting more exciting.
    • Bolivia
      • The poor fucks are now almost completely surrounded by a bloc of nations who cooperate fairly closely and outweigh it by well over an order of magnitude. It actually does have outstanding border conflicts with Chile, but there is no amount of Russian aid that can make those relevant when Brazil and Chile will register their disapproval of acting on that, and Argentina won't help. Paraguay and Peru, meanwhile, have no interest in their neighborhood exploding into conflict during the Collapse.
      • This is where we really see the limit of Alexander's foreign policy; while there is a history of border conflicts in South America, most of the nations down there, over the past few decades, have been making concerted efforts to resolve them. Chile and Argentina spent over a decade resolving theirs. Bolivia and Paraguay resolved theirs. Peru and Chile resolved theirs. The 19th century saw big conflicts that are still talked about today, but by and large, the nations involved really don't want to kick things back off again. He's trying to exploit tensions that just aren't intense enough or widespread enough to stoke.
      • Bolivia is one of the only exceptions in that it keeps its claim to a seaboard active. Which, understandable, frankly, but absolutely nobody will back them on it if they try, and Russia can't make it happen for them.
      • Bolivia simmers, and gets drawn into the South American community slower than anybody, helpless to realize that ambition.
    • Paraguay
      • Drawn into the orbit of the growing bloc, pretty happy to be included since it brings in some money.
    • Peru
      • Fairly wary of being sandwiched in between a newly prominent Columbia and the southern bloc. Having received Japanese aid as part of Japan's sphere-building before Japan lost its ability to do that, Peru wound up tied loosely into the southern bloc, but they're still quite conscious of the fact that they're front-and-center to the still-Russian-aligned Columbian power to their north.
    • Uruguay
      • Probably still trading happily with their neighbors. They have certainly suffered. Their economy relies on the export of food, so they didn't starve, but they certainly suffered. But with a developing South American consensus, a food exporter is always welcome. Also, 95% of their energy today is in renewables, so they have an exceptionally painless transition process, allowing them to kip back to their feet fairly swiftly once things resurge.
And there we have it. Looking for feedback on these suggestions, and then we'll finalize.
 
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