Victoria Falls Worldbuilding Thread

I would dearly love to know how Mossad manages to keep the nukes hidden. And in what form they are even meant to be delivered.

So, I imagine, would Alexander.

...Pan-Arabism may be relevant in Egypt, even if Egypt isn't groaning specifically under a Russian boot.
 
I'd think that Mossad keeps the nukes concealed via the method of 'disappearing' anyone that appears to be a Russian-aligned spy. Probably with collateral damage or innocents caught up. But excused because Israel knows that those nukes are the only things that have delayed a more permanent solution being applied to them...

The bigger question about Israel in my mind is how have they worked on the Palestine Problem since the collapse? I can't help but feel that the Collapse and Russian Intervention into the region actually opens up avenues for Israel to peacefully resolve the situation in beneficial ways to both sides. As for the rising tide of Pan-Arabism, well, if they've managed to peacefully resolve the Palestine Problem, then they can run with the idea that they don't have a problem with Pan-Arabism, just look at all the Arabs in their borders that they've managed to peacefully integrate. It was always Pan-Islamism that was causing the problems before...

Would be several tight ropes to walk admittedly, but they might have been the only reason Israel didn't collapse with the refugee movements, foreign intervention and loss of foreign support that hit the region.

Sure, they could have continued the current methods, or worsened them... But I feel like Israel is too smart to throw that napalm bomb into the bone-dry forest that the desperate Middle East became. After all, if you are going to die anyway, might as well do so for a holy cause like 'liberating' Palestine.
 
Last edited:
Coolio, so here's an updated zoom in on the world map with the new info. Once again, ignore the stuff going on in Africa, I'll change it once we get there.

Just as an explanation, I assume now that Turkey and Iran are independent and powerful enough to warrant their own color schemes, along with their allies. Oman is surrounded by Iran's primary color to indicate it's influenced but it's not a client and the same goes for Jordan and Lebanon, although it's Russia-aligned in this case. While this might be a bad extrapolation, I assumed that Kuwait was merged with the Shia Iraqi client state and I added back Lake Bakhtegan to Iran's south--not that it's appearance changes much, but I think it makes sense given that Iran has done better for itself.

So far I left Afghanistan's border in the map despite it being dark grey (which means general lawlessness), only because I don't know if it would collapse into itself of just be a quiet country by 2070. When I'm done with this map, I'll put a point of interest describing the presence of pan-arabism, but it won't be getting its own map label since I don't want to confuse thing any more than they already are.

 
Last edited:
Regarding pan-Arabism, my thoughts:
- Oman is unlikely, it is very culturally distinct due to being their own branch of Islam (Ibadi).
- In Lebanon, it'll instantly become a sectarian issue. Maronites will reject it entirely (some of them go as far as claiming they're phoenicians to avoid being bundled with Arabs), as will some of the other minorities, but the rest will in all likelihood embrace it because the Maronites hate it.
- Syria and Iraq are likely to be the hotbeds for it despite the attempts to control it by their occupiers, as happened with the first round of Arab nationalism, simply because they're broken shells. The Kurds won't like it.
- Jordan may join in, but I doubt the Jordanian government (is it still a monarchy?) would want too much to do with it.
- Palestinians (if there's still any living in the place, the diaspora otherwise) will probably take a liking to it because it gives them hope of support from the rest of the Arabs.
- Saudi Arabia without the oil or holy cities frankly doesn't matter one way or another, except maybe as a place to retreat and disappear into.
- Egypt is a cointoss between wanting strongly to be their own thing or being pan Arabist. They may see it as a way to project their power and size in the region, but it's also on a collision course with Russia and they may just want to absorb the more useful refugees and build their own thing while focusing on influencing the AU.
 
Coolio, so here's an updated zoom in on the world map with the new info. Once again, ignore the stuff going on in Africa, I'll change it once we get there.

Just as an explanation, I assume now that Turkey and Iran are independent and powerful enough to warrant their own color schemes, along with their allies. Oman is surrounded by Iran's primary color to indicate it's influenced but it's not a client and the same goes for Jordan and Lebanon, although it's Russia-aligned in this case. While this might be a bad extrapolation, I assumed that Kuwait was merged with the Shia Iraqi client state and I added back Lake Bakhtegan to Iran's south--not that it's appearance changes much, but I think it makes sense given that Iran has done better for itself.

So far I left Afghanistan's border in the map despite it being dark grey (which means general lawlessness), only because I don't know if it would collapse into itself of just be a quiet country by 2070. When I'm done with this map, I'll put a point of interest describing the presence of pan-arabism, but it won't be getting its own map label since I don't want to confuse thing any more than they already are.

Go ahead and expand the Russian Arabian client state along the rest of the Hejaz, and the Iranian Arabian puppet along the whole of the Persian Gulf coastline. The aim for those is partially sea control.

The Persian Gulf coastline of Saudi Arabia. The various Gulf States remain, mostly because Iran lacks the sheer heft of Russia and could use smallened and weakened allies even more.
 
Last edited:
Awesome, thanks for the tip. Attached is the updated map, where I also tried to thicken the borders to make it more clear that there are several separate client states along the Persian Gulf. Either than that, not much else in terms of differences, so I'll just spoiler it.

 
Awesome, thanks for the tip. Attached is the updated map, where I also tried to thicken the borders to make it more clear that there are several separate client states along the Persian Gulf. Either than that, not much else in terms of differences, so I'll just spoiler it.

Almost perfect! Can you extend the Iranian client all the way down to the UAE?
 
I thought that the Russian client state of Syria actually doesn't hold all it's territory that it does now? With the focus being to have controlled the coastline regions as that's all that's important to Russia. Or was that lost with how much more 'intact' the Middle East is now?

... Or is that map of Syria what they officially control, but everything away from the coast and maybe Damascus is a hot bed of revolution that needs regular purges to keep control of?
 
- Egypt is a cointoss between wanting strongly to be their own thing or being pan Arabist. They may see it as a way to project their power and size in the region, but it's also on a collision course with Russia and they may just want to absorb the more useful refugees and build their own thing while focusing on influencing the AU.

UAR 2 Gang gang!
 
Regarding pan-Arabism, my thoughts:
- Oman is unlikely, it is very culturally distinct due to being their own branch of Islam (Ibadi).
Pretty much, it's just part of the Gulf Council because it's in the same geographic region and speaks the same language.
- In Lebanon, it'll instantly become a sectarian issue. Maronites will reject it entirely (some of them go as far as claiming they're phoenicians to avoid being bundled with Arabs), as will some of the other minorities, but the rest will in all likelihood embrace it because the Maronites hate it.
"some of them"? I think some of them already did during the Lebanese civil war to legitimize their break from the Sunnis and Shi'ites, and some even before that. It's not exactly new. The Shi'ites might be chummy towards Iran and Syria (both ruled by Shi'ites) but would rather not have to be pawns in someone else's game. The Sunnis, as always, would be the ones most eager for Pan-Arabism.
- Syria and Iraq are likely to be the hotbeds for it despite the attempts to control it by their occupiers, as happened with the first round of Arab nationalism, simply because they're broken shells. The Kurds won't like it.
Iraq more likely, since we've established Syria as being Alexander's loyal ally, though yes, the Syrian Sunnis will still heed the siren call of Pan-Arabism.
- Jordan may join in, but I doubt the Jordanian government (is it still a monarchy?) would want too much to do with it.
If the government is stable, it will be the monarchy. Simply because a lot of the socio-political and ethnic juggling act that is Jordanian politics is centered around the Hashemites keeping the throne. They'll amend the laws to keep it that way, and do whatever it takes to keep the Army loyal too. Though should there ever be a weak Hashemite monarch, or if the monarchy breaks, the whole state is going to implode. Frankly, I'm impressed they made it this long: they'd be the last bastions of whatever passes for sanity in the Middle East, but then again, Middle Eastern monarchies tend to be hardier than most give them credit for, since failures tend to end in brutal bloodshed. King Hussein II would be pushing 80 if he's still alive; if not, it's up to his successor.

The government will not want to do anything to do with Pan-Arabism, because it was trouble the last time around (the 1950s and 1960s) and it'll get them in trouble with Alex now. They've already got issues with the collapse of various states around them, and the fact that Syria likes to lean on them sometimes to flex its strength. But the living standards are getting worse, and society is probably mostly under the poverty line. Pan-Arabism unites them and gives them a cause.
- Palestinians (if there's still any living in the place, the diaspora otherwise) will probably take a liking to it because it gives them hope of support from the rest of the Arabs.
Some of the older folks would argue against it; their grandparents believed in Nasser and he failed. But with radical Islamic movements defeated or discredited, the Palestinians would probably look to Arab Nationalism (or Arab Neo-Nationalism - damn, that sounded ominous) for larger Arab support.
- Saudi Arabia without the oil or holy cities frankly doesn't matter one way or another, except maybe as a place to retreat and disappear into.
Back to being an empty wasteland where nomads and outlaws live, dotted with fewer oases than there once was.
- Egypt is a cointoss between wanting strongly to be their own thing or being pan Arabist. They may see it as a way to project their power and size in the region, but it's also on a collision course with Russia and they may just want to absorb the more useful refugees and build their own thing while focusing on influencing the AU.
Pretty much. Egypt may not have been the birthplace of Arab Nationalism the first time around, but it was certainly a big part of the ideology in its heyday. With the collapse of the Sykes-Picot world and the Collapse in general, it's returning to its former strength in a rather Malthusian way, and Pan-Arabism is a possible way of returning to leadership in the Arab world in general.

Sudan would have run itself into the ground thanks to successive incompetent and corrupt governments that leaned too heavily on the ethnic fault lines and broke the country then abused the hell out of its resources. Egypt would have consumed its Arab parts easily. As for Libya, IIRC, there were reports a few years back that the aquifer supplying Libya is being depleted and that salt water is seeping in - I think it was around 2016. By 2070, it would have absolutely been depleted, and if Alexander just wrecks any desalination projects, then Libya's dead. There's no real way to keep it going, especially if the oil trade is dead or very strictly regulated by Russia. It wouldn't take much for Egypt to absorb it (Tunisia is too small to take much except a few border areas for security, and Algeria's main population concentration is too far away to care about the rest) or at least absorb Cyrenaica (the eastern part), but it would be seen as an empty backwater with oil they can't use and hard-to-deal-with locals.
 
South And Central America
We move now to South and Central America, as they will shortly and very immediately become relevant.

I'm not really sure what the shape of these things will be. I know that Panama is a Russian puppet. I know that Puerto Rico walks the Russian party line. The Caribbean in general should see heavy Russian influence, with other powers largely contesting regions elsewhere and therefore not mounting challenges in the Caribbean. Central America, of course, will be heavily influenced by this -- it won't be a priority kill region for Alexander, but he'll have his finger on things. Venezuela is almost certainly dead, although I don't know what might have come of it afterwards.

South America, however, largely would have been left alone.

With the United States gone and Alexander focusing on strategically relevant areas, South America has largely been left to itself. Nobody competes there. For the first time, the continent may develop on its own terms, free of outside interference.

I want to focus on South and Central America in particular, here, but given my similar plans for Africa (largely left to itself as powers focus limited resources on challenging Russian hegemony elsewhere) and Africa's proximity to South America, I'm sure there'll be some cross-pollination. Let's keep it focused on the Americas, but go ahead and draw on Africa if you need to make a point.

So, folks, let's get talking about the CFC's neighborhood, and how things might have gone down.
 
I think it would be safe to say Venezuela is probably dead and gone with the way their economy is now they probably took a fair few body blows.
 
I'd argue the Lithium deposites in the Andes Mountains would give countries like Chile serious geopolitical relevance, so it's a bit of a stretch to say they'd be *completely* left alone.
 
We move now to South and Central America, as they will shortly and very immediately become relevant.

I'm not really sure what the shape of these things will be. I know that Panama is a Russian puppet. I know that Puerto Rico walks the Russian party line. The Caribbean in general should see heavy Russian influence, with other powers largely contesting regions elsewhere and therefore not mounting challenges in the Caribbean.
Cuba should be interesting. The place is used to bunkering down and having a relatively internal-focused economy, as I understand it, on account of the embargo. And Alexander doesn't really have a reason to destroy it, because it's not a threat. Cuba simply does not have the population, natural resources, or wealth to seriously interfere with Russia's ambitions outside its own immediate backyard, and is probably smart enough not to try.

Furthermore, Cuba is very likely, even of its own accord without Russian behest, to seek footholds and influence along the Gulf and Florida coasts of the United States... while being an essentially foreign influence on those coasts, and having an inherently limited ability to expand their influence inland (especially if the Vicks are being held in reserve).

This would tend to further disorder and break down the reason, while making it harder for any American successor states to thrive along that coast, or so I would think. So Cuba might be in a quasi-independent position simply because they are already going to do anyway what Alexander would want them to do, and he doesn't pressingly need to control them as long as they don't impinge on his sphere of interest.

I may be missing something here.

I'd argue the Lithium deposites in the Andes Mountains would give countries like Chile serious geopolitical relevance, so it's a bit of a stretch to say they'd be *completely* left alone.
Yes, but on the other hand, Alexander doesn't have the manpower or the attention to take over every country in the world with relevant resources. He'll want Chile functional and exporting lithium or whatever, because he legitimately needs the lithium, but it's probably not worth his trouble to start yet another coup or breakup of yet another country that is functionally incapable of being a threat.
 
I would also like to bear in mind that looking at Brazil's nuclear energy development history in the 20th century and their Cooperation with Argentian I wouldn't be surprised that in the Chaos of the Collapse forced them to develop nuclear weapons (Unlikely) and expand upon their nuclear energy sector.

See the Angra Nuclear Power Plant for what I think they have. They have the material.

In fact here is an article on South America's big Uranium deposits.

Hell if they saw the way the winds blowing...nukes might not be that unbelievable.

www.mining.com

Latin America poised to become uranium superpower

Uranium exploration and production is on a fast track in Latin American, as investors begin to realize that a few small-cap companies are controlling deposits that could be worth billions of dollars.
.
 
Last edited:
I put this up in discord but would Venezuela attack Guyana? Since they have disputed territory called the Guayana Esequiba.
 
Last edited:
Yes, but on the other hand, Alexander doesn't have the manpower or the attention to take over every country in the world with relevant resources. He'll want Chile functional and exporting lithium or whatever, because he legitimately needs the lithium, but it's probably not worth his trouble to start yet another coup or breakup of yet another country that is functionally incapable of being a threat.
It is possible for the Russians to interact with nations in ways other than direct hostility, even if Alexander seems pathologically opposed to the very idea of mutually beneficial agreement. Sure, it might not be worth his time and effort to puppet a crucial recourse producing South American nation (which technically includes Bolivia and Argentina, but they're historically less than successful at taking advantage of their own Lithium deposits) but that's not to say he has to ignore them. It'd be trivial for his pacific fleet to take a gander near the Chilean coast and say that they'll send every cargo tanker to the seafloor unless they pay a 50% tariff ... unless the Chilean government was to come to an understanding with the Tsar. This goes for pretty much every South American nation whose economy is dependant on recourse production, which is a lot of them, but Chile's unique situation might provoke Russian interest where others would fly under the radar.
 
Speaking of Guyana.

So, French Guiana is part of France and thus the EU. It has the Guiana Space Centre (responsible for about 15% of its GDP!), and I'm wondering whether Alex would try to wreck it and, more importantly, whether he would succeed? Without it, the EU has no spaceport, so I can imagine that they would want to make sure it stays intact and that the country either stays in the Union or has a pro-European government. Of course, the EU and France have plenty of other problems to deal with so they may not be able to spare the resources.

Which makes me wonder if this isn't a place where the African Union can step in, either to secure the Space Centre for themselves, or as part of a deal with the EU?
 
Speaking of Guyana.

So, French Guiana is part of France and thus the EU. It has the Guiana Space Centre (responsible for about 15% of its GDP!), and I'm wondering whether Alex would try to wreck it and, more importantly, whether he would succeed? Without it, the EU has no spaceport, so I can imagine that they would want to make sure it stays intact and that the country either stays in the Union or has a pro-European government. Of course, the EU and France have plenty of other problems to deal with so they may not be able to spare the resources.

Which makes me wonder if this isn't a place where the African Union can step in, either to secure the Space Centre for themselves, or as part of a deal with the EU?

Depends if how many resources Russia has to do this endeavour going off from what I understand Alexander during the collapse was having to juggle 12 balls in the air at once it may have been on his list but given the general state of France, the launch site in French Guiana could have been taken down by infighting, invasion or maybe as you say sabotage though it could be Alexander or someone else with a bone to pick with France.
 
Suggestions for South America: Chile

Chile survived the Collapse as an intact democracy, though it was not easy. They became self-sufficient by necessity, rather than choice, and to this day most of Chile distrusts any kind of reliance on trade. They had trusted in a global economy once before, only to be ruined by the Collapse.

Though self-sufficient autarky is the official goal of Chile's governing party (and the opposition), it is largely impractical. Chile exports food and raw materials to Europe and the Russosphere, and they sell farm equipment to some of the recovering regions along America's southern coast. They import most advanced technology, despite their consistent efforts to build up domestic industry.

Most Chileans want to stay out of global politics, but the leading political factions in the largely isolationist nation know that global politics might not stay out of Chile . America has collapsed, and Chile now looks on the Russosphere with the same suspicion and distrust that was once directed at the United States. Alexander's diplomats have been received with every courtesy, and always given the same message; Chile is a proud and independent nation, and while they are not Russia's enemy, they will not be Russia's ally.

As Chile's economy slowly recovers, a substantial fraction of their budget now goes into the military. The government resents every peso they spend on guns when they could be rebuilding their country's roads and bridges, their education system, their obsolete hospitals...

It does not matter what they want. The government knows what Tsar Alexander did in the Middle East. As they forge defense pacts with their neighbors and purchase weapons from the Europeans, they may grieve at the cost. But children may be hungry and illiterate and still free, citizens of a nation that will not grovel before the new lords of the world. Those children may dream of a world at peace, a world where Chileans can truly dedicate themselves to their many domestic problems and lift themselves out of the Third World. It is a beautiful dream, a worthy dream, but ultimately it is a child's dream.

They were lucky. Chile emerged from the Collapse with a functioning democracy and the capacity to feed their people. If many of their children cannot read or write, at least they can eat well enough. Chile is alive and free, and who could ask for more than that?
 
@dptullos - Any interactions with Bolivia? The Bolivians are still unbelievably salty about losing their sea access, and although the country is a wreck compared to their prosperous rival, that also means they'd be less affected by the collapse of international trade, which might've put them in a position to settle the score.
 
I'd argue the Lithium deposites in the Andes Mountains would give countries like Chile serious geopolitical relevance, so it's a bit of a stretch to say they'd be *completely* left alone.
It is possible for the Russians to interact with nations in ways other than direct hostility, even if Alexander seems pathologically opposed to the very idea of mutually beneficial agreement. Sure, it might not be worth his time and effort to puppet a crucial recourse producing South American nation (which technically includes Bolivia and Argentina, but they're historically less than successful at taking advantage of their own Lithium deposits) but that's not to say he has to ignore them. It'd be trivial for his pacific fleet to take a gander near the Chilean coast and say that they'll send every cargo tanker to the seafloor unless they pay a 50% tariff ... unless the Chilean government was to come to an understanding with the Tsar. This goes for pretty much every South American nation whose economy is dependant on recourse production, which is a lot of them, but Chile's unique situation might provoke Russian interest where others would fly under the radar.
When I say they were left alone, I mean stuff like this. Alexander launching this kind of operation could only happen from the 2030s — when the USN was well and truly gone — to around 2060 — when serious rival power blocs began demanding Russian attention and force commitment. And Alexander would start taking the Russian Navy from...this...to a proper force starting in the mid-2020s. Let's assume 2035 to 2060, 25 years. In that time, Alexander needs to conquer most of his neighbors, conduct his expansion in the Middle East, reach out to and financially support Japan and India, launch his green revolution, and fight an ever-escalating intelligence war with the rest of the planet.

The plot armor has a limit, and I feel comfortable placing that limit here.
 
@dptullos - Any interactions with Bolivia? The Bolivians are still unbelievably salty about losing their sea access, and although the country is a wreck compared to their prosperous rival, that also means they'd be less affected by the collapse of international trade, which might've put them in a position to settle the score.

My ignorance of South America is showing.

I deliberately wrote a short description, precisely because I don't know very little about Chilean society, and I forgot about the neighbors.

The first impulse is to say no. Despite my limited knowledge of Bolivia, I don't think that they would go to war with Chile. Both countries have much bigger problems, and if Bolivia survived as a sane democracy then they're probably allies with Chile.
 
When I say they were left alone, I mean stuff like this. Alexander launching this kind of operation could only happen from the 2030s — when the USN was well and truly gone — to around 2060 — when serious rival power blocs began demanding Russian attention and force commitment. And Alexander would start taking the Russian Navy from...this...to a proper force starting in the mid-2020s. Let's assume 2035 to 2060, 25 years. In that time, Alexander needs to conquer most of his neighbors, conduct his expansion in the Middle East, reach out to and financially support Japan and India, launch his green revolution, and fight an ever-escalating intelligence war with the rest of the planet.

The plot armor has a limit, and I feel comfortable placing that limit here.
That makes sense - I find the timeline a little confusing to grasp, but Russia's never going to be a Thassalocrasy. Perhaps Japan could have done something like that, when they were still riding off their heyday? Chile almost certainly would have been able to assert their sovereignty when the Rising Sun's star dimmed, but it'd make sense for Japan's dream of Pacific domination and habit of serious overextension.
 
Back
Top