Victoria Falls Worldbuilding Thread

Agreed.
Local trade isnt likely to go away even in the worst of the Collapse. Regional trade isnt likely to go away.
Both Japan and India kinda need it. Especially Japan.

I'm picturing a string of Cuban-dominated enclaves along the Gulf Coast, all close to the sea, that are basically just auxiliary extension farmland for the Cuba proper. Russia might very well smile and nod at this because it accomplishes several goals at once:
Frankly, Cuba has more regional links in places like Nicaragua and Honduras, where it has supplied both doctors and military personnel in the past, and where it will find people willing to work with them in return for skilled personnel and pharmaceuticals.
And those will have people with actual experience with limited resource agriculture.

The Gulf Coast of the US is just unnecessary.
Doesn't mean someone might not do it, because a lot of people seem to be stupid in fiction and IRL, but it plain costs them less to stick to familiar territory.


...You entirely missed my point.
My point is that Puerto Rico is a naturally vulnerable place with a disrupted economy and no protector in this situation. It also has specific kinds of light manufacturing that make it useful, and not a real threat or competitor from Alexander's perspective.

Alexander IV does not need to waste manpower conquering Puerto Rico or skilled engineers to build up its economy (much). All he needs is to sign a deal; they will have every reason to comply of their own accord. Puerto Rico thus falls under the "ally of convenience" category, or possibly the "easily bullied hanger-on" category if you're less sympathetic.
I'm squinting at it and trying to figure out why they simply wouldnt buy that stuff from Victoria.
But I guess its possible.


In answer to the first, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Beating piracy in a maritime region with naval power is only one way to do it. The other is to break the landward power of the factions that engage in piracy. See for instance the Barbary Corsairs- sporadically suppressed with naval actions throughout the Early Modern era, but only finally and permanently crushed out when the French conquered North Africa in the 1830s and destroyed the institutions that operated the ships.

In answer to the second, successful piracy (which includes raids against coastal communities) has a LOT of potential to pay for itself, even if keeping the pirates in operation requires expensive commodities (like fuel). There's a limit, but given that you're still going on about how the EU can maintain a million people in overseas possessions even while undergoing intensive Collapse conditions, you really shouldn't be questioning how a bunch of guys with AKs and boats can get marine diesel fuel during the same time period.
1)Modern piracy does not seem to work like old-timey piracy.
The Somalis held hijacked ships and their crew for ransom. In the Gulf of Guinea they kidnap crew members for ransom and leave the ship. In parts of the South China Sea its basically larceny writ large, where they steal shit small enough to be manportable like cellphones and and run away.

Old timey cargos were fungible. You can sell silk and spices untraceably, and gold was gold. You can even fence the ship. Modern cargos are not. Pirates are not able to fence the contents of an international cargo ship. You can't exactly unload containers or handle bulk grain or oil without big port cargo handling equipment, and no big port will willingly take in a hijacked ship flagged by a bigname country for fear of bigtime retaliation.

And if you stumble on stuff like heavy machinery or crude or iron ore, you cant use it.
And noone will buy the ship because its identifiable.

2) Given that the scenario explicitly has Russia driving up the price of gas and squeezing fossil fuel-powered transport vessels, I'm allowed to express skepticism about pirates getting their hands on the fuel to continue to operate motor boats for very long in the Caribbean. Its much harder to practice piracy if you need to use a rowboat/sailboat to catch a cargoship moving at 15-20 knots.

And it's not like the pirates can just walk out and find a ship either.
The Somalis for instance would sometimes have to range far into the Indian Ocean on motherships to identify potential targets before unloading motorboats with pirate parties.


Yes. This still represents an investment of easily a billion euros a year or more, at a time when the territorial security and food security of Europe itself is very much uncertain.

Funds for anything off the European mainland are going to be ridiculously tight. If they DO, as you repeatedly assert in an exasperatingly cocksure manner, have the funds to maintain their space launch infrastructure, they're going to be doing it out of desperate "do or die" commitment to maintaining their military budget. And there won't be a lot left over to feed people on islands of no strategic value.
1) For one thing, I'm fairly sure you are way off in your numbers.

Aid to war-torn Yemen in 2019 according to Human Rights Watch was 3.6 billion dollars for 14 million people, which comes out to about 250 million per million people. In comparison, in 2018 Germany spent 23 billion euros on both integrating a million refugees and fighting the root causes of migration; 7.9 billion dollars on keeping more refugees at home, with the remaining 14 billion or so on housing, integration and other costs. Reuters citation

The price of transplanting a couple hundred thousand refugees to the mainland and maintaining them is going to be significantly higher than helping them stay home. A set of tropical Caribbean islands at peace with almost a tenth the population are going to cost much less. I'd be surprised to be spending more than a couple hundred million a year in total for all of them.

2) For another, Europe produces a food surplus. Allegedly even today 20% of European food production ends up in landfills or as animal feed, and thats down from the 1980s. If they are shipping food, most of the cost is in transportation, and sea shipping costs are low. Paying your own farmers and your own workers for stuff youre shipping to EU territory is economic stimulus, not a waste of money.

If they're simply sending over people to help train the locals to improve local production of essentials and moving a shipment of extras every six months or so, the costs drop even more.

Even, say, subsidising a chunk of the French Foreign Legion to squat on French Guiana's launch facilities as security against bandits and vandalism has the benefit of ensuring several thousand very well trained light infantry who would normally be off in parts of Francophone Africa arent sitting in Europe with no employment.

The ex-military mercs who were paid to fight in the Pacific War are something for national security experts to remember.

3) Feeding people of no strategic value is in part a national cohesion thing anyway. The Commonwealth is not the first place to figure out that feeding people who are your citizens or on your claimed territory is a net good for social stability. FDR did it in the middle of the Great Depression. The EU has social welfare programs and had to deal with refugee flows from both North America and the UK.


4)Exasperating? Not intentionally.
But the facts as I see them are fairly unforgiving.

We've been told Alexander did not willingly stop pushing into Europe.
Did not just eat Ukraine and Moldova, Belarus and the Baltics, Romania and Bulgaria, burp and decide he was full. He came back for seconds and thirds until he was physically stopped at the buffet table.

He was stopped in Finland and Poland by people posing a credible enough threat that he backed off, even back when large parts of the EU were in serious turmoil. He failed in the Balkans. He still has a bunch of Hohenzollerns in his backpocket for a claim on Germany.
Is still trying to destabilize France even in the face of a much stronger EU and with China on his other border.

Its hard to square the idea of Alexander as an expansionist authoritarian fascist with his passing up a continent that was both vulnerable to energy supply disruption due to his control of the Middle East and significantly militarily inferior due to lack of access to space infrastructure.
A continent that he has land borders with; where Kaliningrad Oblast has been a major Russian base for decades.

Unless it wasn't militarily inferior. Unless it had access to the force multipliers necessary to make that threat stick.

I mean, for some idea how important this stuff is, India put up its own indigenous GPS constellation starting in 2013 called NavIC after the US denied India GPS access in Kargil in 1999 while they were having clashes with Pakistan. Japan started putting up its own in 2018. And the Soviets/Russians started putting Glonass up in the 1980s, and maintained it even during the rough 1990s. The Chinese put up BeiDou in 2000.

Israel has been putting up recon satellites since 1988. Poland alone has a GDP 4x its size.

Of course, the GM can always wave plot fiat.
This is a quest, not a simulation, and theres only so much fidelity possible . But there are minimal levels of force necessary to deter military adventurism from an expansionist superpower with which you have a land border.

In my opinion.
 
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I feel that we don't need to do anything fancy with Cuba.

International trade collapsed, Cuban was struggling to feed/supply itself, Alexander reached out and said "be a Russian client state and enforcer and we'll feed you", and Cuba- which has a precedent for being a Russian client- accepted. At some point the regime in Havana dropped the pretense of Communism.

No fancy business with doctors or mercenaries.
 
I feel that we don't need to do anything fancy with Cuba.

International trade collapsed, Cuban was struggling to feed/supply itself, Alexander reached out and said "be a Russian client state and enforcer and we'll feed you", and Cuba- which has a precedent for being a Russian client- accepted. At some point the regime in Havana dropped the pretense of Communism.

No fancy business with doctors or mercenaries.
I mean. That's basically a more succinct version of the existing plot. Just varying the details of who the Cubans are mercenary-ing for. And the doctors thing is... well, something Cuba already does in real life.

Frankly, Cuba has more regional links in places like Nicaragua and Honduras, where it has supplied both doctors and military personnel in the past, and where it will find people willing to work with them in return for skilled personnel and pharmaceuticals.
And those will have people with actual experience with limited resource agriculture.

The Gulf Coast of the US is just unnecessary.
Doesn't mean someone might not do it, because a lot of people seem to be stupid in fiction and IRL, but it plain costs them less to stick to familiar territory.
Fair point. I can see the Cubans somehow getting entangled on the US coast, especially Florida, but maybe not.

I'm squinting at it and trying to figure out why they simply wouldnt buy that stuff from Victoria.
But I guess its possible.
Because in the relevant time period (2035-50, roughly), Victoria is undergoing White Supremacist Year Zero. It's in no shape to manufacture pharmaceuticals or medical equipment or much of anything else except wandering death squads and human trafficking victims.

Puerto Rico, meanwhile, is a relatively helpless island that has the facilities to make something valuable, but no means of posing a threat or somehow acting as the basis of a reunited America (Alexander's bugbear). Exactly the kind of polity that can be trivially subordinated into the Russosphere with a casual flex of military and economic muscle, on terms strict enough to ensure that they don't mess up anything Alexander doesn't want messed, but not so strict as to inspire revolts.

Alexander breaks things because he doesn't want to have to deal with potential rivals. Puerto Rico isn't a rival; it's loose change that fell out of the pocket of the rival he just broke.

1)Modern piracy does not seem to work like old-timey piracy.
The Somalis held hijacked ships and their crew for ransom. In the Gulf of Guinea they kidnap crew members for ransom and leave the ship. In parts of the South China Sea its basically larceny writ large, where they steal shit small enough to be manportable like cellphones and and run away.

Old timey cargos were fungible. You can sell silk and spices untraceably, and gold was gold. You can even fence the ship. Modern cargos are not. Pirates are not able to fence the contents of an international cargo ship. You can't exactly unload containers or handle bulk grain or oil without big port cargo handling equipment, and no big port will willingly take in a hijacked ship flagged by a bigname country for fear of bigtime retaliation.

And if you stumble on stuff like heavy machinery or crude or iron ore, you cant use it.
And noone will buy the ship because its identifiable.
That is VERY true in the modern international order. It is less true in a relatively lawless environment, or one where there is no clear hegemony, or where the hegemony doesn't care that you rob someone unless it's a friend of theirs.

Victoria, for example, will no doubt buy just about anything and not give a shit that you stole it from a foreign ship, as long as the ship in question wasn't under Russian protection.

The Caribbean is in real danger, in a situation like this, of breaking down into the maritime equivalent of the post-Collapse Midwest: lots of little warlords, periodically terrorized by the big boys whenever they come through. But "lots of little warlords" equates to "piracy" in an ocean region.

2) Given that the scenario explicitly has Russia driving up the price of gas and squeezing fossil fuel-powered transport vessels, I'm allowed to express skepticism about pirates getting their hands on the fuel to continue to operate motor boats for very long in the Caribbean. Its much harder to practice piracy if you need to use a rowboat/sailboat to catch a cargoship moving at 15-20 knots.

And it's not like the pirates can just walk out and find a ship either.
The Somalis for instance would sometimes have to range far into the Indian Ocean on motherships to identify potential targets before unloading motorboats with pirate parties.
The big difference is that pirates can get away with operating smaller ships, more infrequently, than the merchants they prey upon. Keeping up a fuel supply would be a problem, and it might well be a limiting factor on piracy in the region, but if the economy of the Caribbean is so poor that fuel for ships can't be had at any relevant price, then the region has other bigger problems of its own... and so does the global economy.

1) For one thing, I'm fairly sure you are way off in your numbers.

Aid to war-torn Yemen in 2019 according to Human Rights Watch was 3.6 billion dollars for 14 million people, which comes out to about 250 million per million people. In comparison, in 2018 Germany spent 23 billion euros on both integrating a million refugees and fighting the root causes of migration; 7.9 billion dollars on keeping more refugees at home, with the remaining 14 billion or so on housing, integration and other costs. Reuters citation

The price of transplanting a couple hundred thousand refugees to the mainland and maintaining them is going to be significantly higher than helping them stay home. A set of tropical Caribbean islands at peace with almost a tenth the population are going to cost much less. I'd be surprised to be spending more than a couple hundred million a year in total for all of them.
False comparison.

The comparison isn't between supporting these overseas islands economically and spending money settling refugees. It's on supporting these overseas islands economically and NOT supporting them, including not spending money to integrate them as refugees, because the money just ain't there. Because, ahem...

2) For another, Europe produces a food surplus. Allegedly even today 20% of European food production ends up in landfills or as animal feed, and thats down from the 1980s. If they are shipping food, most of the cost is in transportation, and sea shipping costs are low. Paying your own farmers and your own workers for stuff youre shipping to EU territory is economic stimulus, not a waste of money.

If they're simply sending over people to help train the locals to improve local production of essentials and moving a shipment of extras every six months or so, the costs drop even more.

Even, say, subsidising a chunk of the French Foreign Legion to squat on French Guiana's launch facilities as security against bandits and vandalism has the benefit of ensuring several thousand very well trained light infantry who would normally be off in parts of Francophone Africa arent sitting in Europe with no employment.

The ex-military mercs who were paid to fight in the Pacific War are something for national security experts to remember.
I'll grant you that they may be able to find extremely cheap ways to help those particular locals. The big complication is...

4)Exasperating? Not intentionally.
But the facts as I see them are fairly unforgiving.

We've been told Alexander did not willingly stop pushing into Europe.
Did not just eat Ukraine and Moldova, Belarus and the Baltics, Romania and Bulgaria, burp and decide he was full. He came back for seconds and thirds until he was physically stopped at the buffet table.

He was stopped in Finland and Poland by people posing a credible enough threat that he backed off, even back when large parts of the EU were in serious turmoil. He failed in the Balkans. He still has a bunch of Hohenzollerns in his backpocket for a claim on Germany.
Is still trying to destabilize France even in the face of a much stronger EU and with China on his other border.

Its hard to square the idea of Alexander as an expansionist authoritarian fascist with his passing up a continent that was both vulnerable to energy supply disruption due to his control of the Middle East and significantly militarily inferior due to lack of access to space infrastructure.
A continent that he has land borders with; where Kaliningrad Oblast has been a major Russian base for decades.

Unless it wasn't militarily inferior. Unless it had access to the force multipliers necessary to make that threat stick.
...See, this is the big thing.

Europe is here undergoing a major, and actively enhanced by Alexander, economic collapse. In the middle of that, they have to maintain an extensive military buildup, because they need to rapidly transition from "we spend 1% of GDP on the military, continentwide, due to lack of pressing military threat" to "oh shit there's a pressing military threat, and half our member states have collapsed so the other half have to spend even MORE money proportionately speaking."

Will they be maintaining French Guiana as a launch site? Maybe Dunno. It depends on what their alternatives are. They will be doing literally the cheapest possible things in many, many, many areas involving anything BUT military security, and even in military security they'll be scrimping and saving where possible, because military muscle is the only thing deterring Alexander from sending Little Green Men in to take over another tier of countries.

Of course, the GM can always wave plot fiat.
This is a quest, not a simulation, and theres only so much fidelity possible . But there are minimal levels of force necessary to deter military adventurism from an expansionist superpower with which you have a land border.

In my opinion.
We may see false economies, too- the EU collectively fails to maintain the launch site for long enough that it falls apart, then they have to spend more to compensate in some other way (e.g. building a new site somewhere they didn't lose control of, or rebuilding the site in Guiana, or developing military capabilities that function adequately without satellite support).

Come to think of it, Alexander almost certainly has viable ASAT capabilities, probably including space-based lasers if he wants to. It may not be such a great idea to rely on having satellites if you're planning to fight him.
 
Do you have any Net-accessible citations?

Here's the 2016 census headline results. For more data you can pour over, see here. This graph based on UN data gives you a good sense of the population dynamics over time. The economy and population are too small to see the sort of smooth growth you are used to in larger economies, because individual decisions to have a baby or start a business are a much larger part of the overall average.

1) It bears noting that the current fishing situation in the Falklands is due to their reportedly excellent management of their fishing resources, and tight control of who is allowed to fish what. In the absence of the policing forces to do this, or the diesel to even fuel the patrol vessels , you are looking at what happened to the fish in a lot of Africa's coastal waters.

There's a few things to keep in mind though:

1) As a rule Islanders don't eat fish (just one of those local cultural oddities) and there's no local fishing besides sport fishing in the local rivers, which is itself rare. So in a collapse situation, people aren't going to be breaking out the fishing boats.

2) Fishing fleets from the outside need the fuel, good maintenance and organization to reach the South Atlantic and stay there. Depending on exactly how the collapse unfolds, that may not be possible. Certainly at the point where the Falkland Islands government cant fuel its own vessels, how many companies or independent captains will be able to do so?

2) Speaking as someone who has personal experience of human-powered subsistence agriculture , I have strong reservations of the Falklands ability to feed itself in that situation. Or to say, have halfway trained medical personnel.
But you have more personal knowledge than I do.

The Falklands fed itself before the war and the climate is good enough that you can raise enough food to keep a population as small as that on the Islands fed on a reasonably varied diet (though with the fish aversion, the main source of omega 3 oils is sheep brains, yummmm). Though these days, the Falklands are very much NOT food independent since it makes more economic sense to work for money and use money to buy food, rather than grow most of your own food in your own garden. So again, it very much depends exactly how the collapse happens. If the collapse is sudden and lasts longer than an emergency diet of almost exclusively sheep-meat can sustain the population, things would look pretty bad.

As far as medical personnel go, yeah, the current (very good) health infrastructure of the Falklands can't be maintained without trade and migration links to the outside, but the great majority of ensuring good health revolves around preventative measures, the state of hygiene and the state of education - things that don't require an extensive health infrastructure.

If the UK had still been part of the EU when they collapsed, that would be different.

Um... How?

The fourteen year orgy of violence that was the final collapse of the United States and it's successor states between 2033 and 2047 was preceded by seventeen years of progressive decline after whatsisface defaulted on US debt in 2016 and the Euros kicked the US out of Europe, and progressive internal political dysfunction hit the US.

Major economies and businesses would have hedged their bets. Doesn't mean it wouldnt hurt.
The fall of the US was a shattering cataclysm with earthshaking effects. But it didnt hit people out of the blue.

A slower collapse would help maintain oil output for sure.

I mean, look at the timeline.
We know the Chinese splintered sometime around 2045, and were back on the scene in enough strength by the Rainbow Revolt of 2062 that they thought Chinese diplomatic recognition would be decisive.

Ummmm. I mean. A civil war that is less than 17 years isn't at all implausible.

A country as unified as China breaking up and re-forming within 17 years without violence definitely is.

Look at any case of an empire breaking apart, and by far the most usual way it happens is along the bounderies of pre-existing local subdivisions. The USSR fractured along the lines of dividing the SSRs. China and Iran during previous periods of disunion have fractured along the lines of regional military command areas (which is why we call the last period of Chinese disunity the "warlord era"). The British Empire for the most part broke up along the lines of previously established colonial/dominion boundaries. As did the other colonial empires. The US Civil War only involved one state actually breaking up - for the most part the borders between the Union and Confederacy were previously existing state and territory boundaries.

And generally, the exceptions involve previously existing cultural or religious divides, like the religious differences between North and South Ireland, or the ethnic differences between Moldova and Transdniestria.

And situations like the "velvet divorce" between the Czech Republic and Slovakia are very unusual. Even when something can't really be called a civil war, there is generally some degree of violence.

So ya. China just falling apart and falling back together with no violence seems really darn odd to me. The only significant divide in China is the North/South divide, between the politically more important and industrially declining North and the less politically powerful but economically dynamic South. Tibet and Xingjiang are big on the map, but very little of China's population and economy are in those Western regions, so while they might have gained independence for a short time or still be independent in the 2070s, they're like insects compared to even half of China's core. As such, I can imagine a scenario where the Chinese Communist Party loses its grip under the buffeting of disaster after disaster and there's a period of confusion in which two major successor regimes emerge, one in Northern China, and one in Southern China. But I expect both regimes would very much consider themselves "China" and would be working to quickly decide who got to form the nucleus of the new united China.

Not wanting to open themselves up too much to Russian or Japanese intervention might keep the violence between claimants from becoming too severe, and the division may be ended by negotiation, but I would expect there to be at least low-level skirmishes every so often. Alternatively, I would expect to see a short, sharp civil war. Or a longer civil war drawn out by Russia, Japan and India playing games.

Note that while Italy may have fought a civil war in this AU(the GM hasn't decided), France splintered in this AU without significant internal violence.
Lots of civil unrest, but no actual fighting.
There seems to be precedent for it.

I think the idea that France will (relatively) peacefully splinter is a nonsensical idea also.

Given the source material this quest is based on, I accept that this world will be full of silly things happening so that Lind's dumb ideas can appear to work for a couple decades, but I will still call out the silliness for what it is.

And I think you underestimate the capacity to retool that exists outside the US; North America accounts for about 18% of the world's manufacturing capacity IRL by dollar value. Half of the worlds manufacturing value comes out of Asia right now.

I love that source chart. Still. Overall manufacturing output gives no indication about how much of a particular sector is in any one country. The UK still puts out a respectable portion of world manufacturing, but makes no important parts of a modern hard disk and has no cutting edge chip foundries. Also, the US role in the world oil market is not limited to only manufacturing - US firms are major players in consulting and in oil financing. Before the current crisis in Venezuela, one of the reasons why oil output was steadily declining is because it was not willing or able to access the cutting edge oil extraction technology that pretty much only comes from the US. Or comes from non-US firms that are nonetheless completely enmeshed in the US oil industry. Attempts by regimes with hostile or uneasy relations with the US to develop self-sufficiency in their local oil industries have completely failed. Though notably those failures have also attempted to free themselves from dependence on Western Europe also.

Still, given the complete dominance US firms have over fracking technology (which has increasing relevance to what used to be called "conventional" oil drilling, to the point that it may not be sensible to talk about a difference between the two) and the financial infrastructure of the oil industry make me dubious that Western Europe can maintain the world oil industry on its here-and-now footing, or even close to it. Especially with the UK (perhaps the second most important player in the oil industry service sector) falling into a bad civil war.

Its canon in the background material that Toyota was exporting and selling electric cars in Victoria after they seceded. Its canon in this quest that the Chinese had the expertise and funding to start the Fundy Bay tidal projects in the late 2030s and early 2040s. Its canon that everywhere went greentech, which implies the manufacturing capacity to replace old polluting technology with the new hotness.

Making electric vehicles and building power plants are completely different branches of industrial technology. Humans are now slurping up the dregs of the planet's oil reserves. It is a very specialized branch of finance, technology and engineering reliant on over a century of experience.

There's enough capacity outside the US that output won't fall to zero, but it will fall considerably.

Shell is Anglo-Dutch.
Eni is Italian. Total is French. BP is British. Sinopec is Chinese. Petrobras is Brazilian. Gazprom is Russian.
The US is a major player, but large parts of the world have no direct significant US oil company presence.

Shell, Eni, Total and BP are heavily enmeshed in the US oil industry. Sinopec, Petrobras and Gazprom are very much reliant on the West to maintain current levels of effectiveness.

Brazil CANNOT be permitted to fall. Does anyone remember the Amazon burning last year because farmers thought that with Bolsonaro behind them, they could hack and slash more farmland for cash crops and beef at will? Consider a situation where industrial agriculture actually breaks down, and people need that farmland for actual subsistence agriculture. Imagine how much damage fire and machete can do.

Yeah, I was just thinking the same myself.

The Amazon basin has been teetering on the edge of becoming a desert since the ice age ended, its current ecology is maintained by the rainforest being engaged in a constant process of self-terraforming. If Bazil collapses, probably the Amazon collapses. And with it, the world climate would change significantly. Thus, the quest MUST be set in a world where Brazil has stayed strong and has protected the rainforest effectively.

This also means that the other countries who hold part of the Amazon basin - Colombia, Venezuela, Guiana, French Guiana, Suriname, Bolivia and Peru - if they have collapsed they must have collapsed in a way that has not threatened their parts of the rainforest - perhaps because Brazil just annexed those territories, perhaps because they haven't been allowed to collapse, or perhaps because of something else.

As such, Brazil is either an ally of Russia or it is an indispensable rival. A state that opposes Alexander but that he must work with to some degree because he needs the Amazon.

Brazil as Russia's most important enemy anyone?

(Certainly I think Brazil would be more capable of opposing Russia than the EU at this point.)

fasquardon
 
Well.

I think the EU would be in the position of a state struggling desperately to maintain enough economic and political leverage to remain relevant on a global state, and to defend themselves against the prospect of direct Russian military aggression. They'd be particularly hard-pressed doing this despite being second most heavily Russia-disrupted of any major power (with the US in undisputed first place, and China in third).

Brazil is in the position of it being very dangerous for Alexander to destabilize because their rural population effectively holds the Amazon rainforest hostage, which Alexander may very well fear more than he fears nukes given how willing he's been to fuck up various nuclear powers. He can (somehow!) use some combination of spies and weaponry to overcome a nuclear power without getting hit by its missiles; he may not be able to figure out a way to stop millions of ranchers and subsistence farmers from burning down an irreplaceable jungle faster than he can assume control over its territory.

This gives Brazil some insurance against Alexander-sabotage, but that has to be offset against the EU's greater pre-Collapse economic strength and population.

Hard to say which is "more capable of opposing" Alexander. Brazil can do it more safely; the EU can probably do it harder because they've now reached a point where they have enough firepower to tell him to fuck off, albeit at considerable risk because the Okhrana likes to use anti-Russian politicians and for that matter entire political parties for target practice and/or destabilization.
 
Brazil is in the position of it being very dangerous for Alexander to destabilize because their rural population effectively holds the Amazon rainforest hostage, which Alexander may very well fear more than he fears nukes given how willing he's been to fuck up various nuclear powers.
Hmmmm, you think it may be possible for the commonwealth to achieve something similar? We obviously don't have anything as important as the Amazon near us but on a smaller scale could we do it? There must be something of ecological importance within our eventual reach.
 
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Well.

I think the EU would be in the position of a state struggling desperately to maintain enough economic and political leverage to remain relevant on a global state, and to defend themselves against the prospect of direct Russian military aggression. They'd be particularly hard-pressed doing this despite being second most heavily Russia-disrupted of any major power (with the US in undisputed first place, and China in third).

Brazil is in the position of it being very dangerous for Alexander to destabilize because their rural population effectively holds the Amazon rainforest hostage, which Alexander may very well fear more than he fears nukes given how willing he's been to fuck up various nuclear powers. He can (somehow!) use some combination of spies and weaponry to overcome a nuclear power without getting hit by its missiles; he may not be able to figure out a way to stop millions of ranchers and subsistence farmers from burning down an irreplaceable jungle faster than he can assume control over its territory.

This gives Brazil some insurance against Alexander-sabotage, but that has to be offset against the EU's greater pre-Collapse economic strength and population.

Hard to say which is "more capable of opposing" Alexander. Brazil can do it more safely; the EU can probably do it harder because they've now reached a point where they have enough firepower to tell him to fuck off, albeit at considerable risk because the Okhrana likes to use anti-Russian politicians and for that matter entire political parties for target practice and/or destabilization.

For sure. The EU has many factors in its favour if it were able to federalize. However, if the EU has staggered along in a form more or less like it is today, the opposition it will be able to offer Russia will be somewhere between zero and laughable. Given what Russia has been able to do, I suspect the EU is still for the most part a fractious economic alliance. Though France's far more favourable demography likely means the French and the Germans will have a truly equal partnership by 2070, and the decline of Italy and the UK should make it pretty easy for the two core members to tell the rest what to do.

By contrast, Brazil is already far more united, has favourable demographics, is far from Russia, is one place Russia can't afford to disrupt, and has had another 50 years to converge in economy, technology and scientific proficiency.

It is entirely possible that by 2070 all the states of South America are more developed and prosperous than the EU members.

Hmmmm, you think it may be possible for the commonwealth to achieve something similar? We obviously don't have anything as important as the Amazon near us but on a smaller scale could we do it?

Maybe if the temperate rainforest of the east coast and great lakes area has recovered? But I doubt it has recovered enough to be so important to Russia.

But the facts as I see them are fairly unforgiving.

We've been told Alexander did not willingly stop pushing into Europe.
Did not just eat Ukraine and Moldova, Belarus and the Baltics, Romania and Bulgaria, burp and decide he was full. He came back for seconds and thirds until he was physically stopped at the buffet table.

He was stopped in Finland and Poland by people posing a credible enough threat that he backed off, even back when large parts of the EU were in serious turmoil. He failed in the Balkans. He still has a bunch of Hohenzollerns in his backpocket for a claim on Germany.
Is still trying to destabilize France even in the face of a much stronger EU and with China on his other border.

Its hard to square the idea of Alexander as an expansionist authoritarian fascist with his passing up a continent that was both vulnerable to energy supply disruption due to his control of the Middle East and significantly militarily inferior due to lack of access to space infrastructure.
A continent that he has land borders with; where Kaliningrad Oblast has been a major Russian base for decades.

Unless it wasn't militarily inferior. Unless it had access to the force multipliers necessary to make that threat stick.

Well... Keep in mind that at the time that Alexander is launching his attacks, Russia will have very few young people to man large armies of conquest. The collapse of the Soviet Union amplified the demographic disaster of WW2. It also led to a collapse of the education system, so furnishing that military with enough high-skill specialists while also keeping the civilian economy together is pretty well impossible. Each conquest is going to bleed that military and will require portions of that military to be assigned to garrison duty. By the time Alexander gets to Poland and Finland it is entirely possible that if he doesn't go nuclear (assuming that the shortage of high-skill specialists hasn't forced Russia to mothball its entire nuclear force) Poland and Finland can stop Russia on their own.

Alexander needs a chain of miracles to even be able to manage as much as has been locked in. All that is needed to stop him at the Polish and Finnish borders is that he gets no more miracles. Which in turn means that the EU can be a military and economic fruitcake and still not be militarily inferior to the shredded remnants of Russia's military might.

...See, this is the big thing.

Europe is here undergoing a major, and actively enhanced by Alexander, economic collapse. In the middle of that, they have to maintain an extensive military buildup, because they need to rapidly transition from "we spend 1% of GDP on the military, continentwide, due to lack of pressing military threat" to "oh shit there's a pressing military threat, and half our member states have collapsed so the other half have to spend even MORE money proportionately speaking."

I mean... Probably they don't. See what I was saying to Uju above. Russia has serious hard limits to the amount of military power it can generate.

Come to think of it, Alexander almost certainly has viable ASAT capabilities, probably including space-based lasers if he wants to. It may not be such a great idea to rely on having satellites if you're planning to fight him.

I mean... Maybe. But I doubt it. A ground-based ASAT weapon would probably do just fine and be much more affordable to the stretched Russian economy.

fasquardon
 
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Something everyone needs to keep in mind is that this entire scenario is laughably absurd. It's okay to just handwave the state of the Amazon and to admit Russia's ... everything makes zero sense. Some stuff just needs to be swept under the table in order to make the setting click, and our job is to figure out what can be made to work and what can't. Or rather, if stretching things to cover the plot holes makes the setting actively more stupid than just ignoring them would entail.
 
If I had to guess, I'd say it just got bundled into the Overseas Countries and Territories Association of the EU when France schismed.
Its right there next to Aruba, which is a Dutch territory. There's a whole bunch of EU territories there in the Caribbean that would be mutually self-supporting with EU help. And its launch facility, while not critical, is a useful place for them to maintain.
Huh yeah. Forgot about those.

My point in general RE: French Guiana, and the EU at large is that there is a limit to how messed up the EU can be without Ol'Alex in Moscow being able to roll over them. If the EU is not able to, at the very least once it got going again to look outside and take back Kourou, and the old Caribbean possessions, then it is not an EU that you can call a great power if it cannot maintain a sphere of influence amongst what should be, logically, the most open targets for doing so.
 
Do we actually have a WOG on what happened to the USN? Was it destroyed in wartime, or did it just end up languishing in port/sold for scrap/sold to other nations? B/c I have the skeleton of an idea where Brazil buys some warships and 'trainers' from the US before the collapse is total... and the purchases are escorted by 2-3 carrier groups that include most of the personnel from Atlantic naval bases and dependents. At which point the fleet admiral in charge of this mass exodus uses the SEALS to kidnap most of the high ranking government officials to tell them that the navy will defend Brazil's interests and stay out of politics the navy pledges its loyalty to the Brazilian government in exchange for resources and food.

Early on this navy contested Russia's attempts to foster piracy in the Gulf, up until the Russian Navy became involved. There was a single naval engagement between Russian and Brazil, but it became readily apparent that Brazil did not have the ability to make good losses sustained to the Navy, so while the battle was a defeat for the Russians... the BN ceded the Caribbean to Russian influence and focused on keeping the Southern Atlantic safe for travel.

As the fleet aged, the subs were able to make contact with Finland and were able to secure blueprints and tooling mostly using boomers to build their ultra quiet attack subs. Boomers were also able to secure advanced tool and dye machines, CnC setups, industrial 3D printers and such over time as well. The oldest of the carriers is now an offshore town off the coast of Rio, and has since had its reactor shut down. It now hosts a great deal of solar panels, a wind turbine and has modified its screws to be ac generators; and it uses all this power to run the litany of tooling the boomers acquired to hand make any replacement parts the fleet needs to stay operational that can't be sourced from the mainland (mostly f-35 parts and creating the tools needed to create AV Gas).

The nuclear ships were long since decommissioned, but before they were they were invaluable to maintaining the navy due to their excess power generation. They were able to get enough plans to sustain less complicated vessels through the initial collapse, scared the hell out of the Brazilian government into acting with competence to get advanced industry up and running, and acts to stabilize the Southern Atlantic. Today the navy is a hub of advanced machining, training and education, though it's only able to field half the ships it came from
 
Hmmmm, you think it may be possible for the commonwealth to achieve something similar? We obviously don't have anything as important as the Amazon near us but on a smaller scale could we do it? There must be something of ecological importance within our eventual reach.
We don't have anything that unique and ecologically valuable on a planetary level.

Something everyone needs to keep in mind is that this entire scenario is laughably absurd. It's okay to just handwave the state of the Amazon and to admit Russia's ... everything makes zero sense. Some stuff just needs to be swept under the table in order to make the setting click, and our job is to figure out what can be made to work and what can't. Or rather, if stretching things to cover the plot holes makes the setting actively more stupid than just ignoring them would entail.
Right.

On the other hand, "Brazil is the one place Alexander didn't destabilize, and actively even maybe tried to stabilize, because of the Amazon rainforest and because he doesn't have a grudge against it or view it as an immediate threat to Russian power in the world as a whole" is a perfectly reasonable element of the scenario.

Do we actually have a WOG on what happened to the USN? Was it destroyed in wartime, or did it just end up languishing in port/sold for scrap/sold to other nations? B/c I have the skeleton of an idea where Brazil buys some warships and 'trainers' from the US before the collapse is total... and the purchases are escorted by 2-3 carrier groups that include most of the personnel from Atlantic naval bases and dependents. At which point the fleet admiral in charge of this mass exodus uses the SEALS to kidnap most of the high ranking government officials to tell them that the navy will defend Brazil's interests and stay out of politics the navy pledges its loyalty to the Brazilian government in exchange for resources and food.
That would actually make a lot of sense.

Early on this navy contested Russia's attempts to foster piracy in the Gulf, up until the Russian Navy became involved. There was a single naval engagement between Russian and Brazil, but it became readily apparent that Brazil did not have the ability to make good losses sustained to the Navy, so while the battle was a defeat for the Russians... the BN ceded the Caribbean to Russian influence and focused on keeping the Southern Atlantic safe for travel.

As the fleet aged, the subs were able to make contact with Finland and were able to secure blueprints and tooling mostly using boomers to build their ultra quiet attack subs. Boomers were also able to secure advanced tool and dye machines, CnC setups, industrial 3D printers and such over time as well. The oldest of the carriers is now an offshore town off the coast of Rio, and has since had its reactor shut down. It now hosts a great deal of solar panels, a wind turbine and has modified its screws to be ac generators; and it uses all this power to run the litany of tooling the boomers acquired to hand make any replacement parts the fleet needs to stay operational that can't be sourced from the mainland (mostly f-35 parts and creating the tools needed to create AV Gas).

The nuclear ships were long since decommissioned, but before they were they were invaluable to maintaining the navy due to their excess power generation. They were able to get enough plans to sustain less complicated vessels through the initial collapse, scared the hell out of the Brazilian government into acting with competence to get advanced industry up and running, and acts to stabilize the Southern Atlantic. Today the navy is a hub of advanced machining, training and education, though it's only able to field half the ships it came from
Hwwrm. Maaaybe.

The details of this might be iffy, but the broad outlines of "Brazil, relatively safe from being driven further into collapse by Alexander, is just about the only 'neutral' nation left on Earth with a respectable blue-water navy not under Russian control" seems plausible. As is the core idea of US Navy assets escaping to Brazil if Brazil is in relatively good shape.
 
Hwwrm. Maaaybe.

The details of this might be iffy, but the broad outlines of "Brazil, relatively safe from being driven further into collapse by Alexander, is just about the only 'neutral' nation left on Earth with a respectable blue-water navy not under Russian control" seems plausible. As is the core idea of US Navy assets escaping to Brazil if Brazil is in relatively good shape.
But why would the navy not set sail for Germany or the EU? The EU has many things Brazil does not. Historical ties, presumably personal contacts between the flag officers (Veeery important if the navy is left adrift). Shipyards to maintain the ships, an effective shared language, even a group of nations that would welcome extra firepower against the Russians.
 
...We have something in the General region that is SOMEWHAT important if you can look at it like that.


The Problem now is actually getting to it.

And I don't even know if its still got the H20.
Would that screw up the planet if we messed with it though? This feels like a situation where if we mess with it the only people suffering will be us and our neighbours, which makes it useless for the purposes of global blackmail.
 
...What about Yellowstone, the Massive Supervolcano in that area won't just go away and given that people are living there.

I'd want to at least keep an eye on that particular area of Gaia's wrath.
Think this through.

We have no control over whether the Yellowstone supervolcano blows up or not. Plus, any ecological global problem Yellowstone could cause, would hurt US far more than it hurt anyone else who didn't live even closer to the epicenter than we do. So no, it doesn't give us an insurance policy against Russia somehow.
 
The way things develop in South America would also be influenced to an extent by the fact that Spain also sort of implodes, it seems.

There are large financial interests moving in both directions, since Spain invests extensively in Latin America and serves South American investors as a gateway into the EU markets.

Depending on timing, Spain's economy cratering could be an additional stress factor in a few countries across the Atlantic.
 
But why would the navy not set sail for Germany or the EU? The EU has many things Brazil does not. Historical ties, presumably personal contacts between the flag officers (Veeery important if the navy is left adrift). Shipyards to maintain the ships, an effective shared language, even a group of nations that would welcome extra firepower against the Russians.
A fair point, but my thought was that the sailors just want out of a failing state and to keep their families safe. The Admiral who pulled it off sold it as 'We'll be out of the coming land war in Eurasia and might be able to keep another nation from collapsing due to the amount of firepower and skill we bring to bear'.
 
First Draft on South and Central America
It's become quite clear that the way things break down, in broad terms, is going to reduce to two spheres: nations with a Caribbean coastline, and those without (although I may include El Salvador in the former given its positioning, depending on what people say). So, I'll be approaching things with that in mind. Here's my stream-of-consciousness from what we've discussed so far. As ever, everything is still quite up for discussion.
  • Caribbean Sea
    • Focus region for Alexander during the Collapse. High-impact, just about indispensable for trade. Furthermore, once the EU reorganizes, the first thing they contest is going to be the Mediterranean, not the Caribbean. So he uses his usual methods to secure power.
    • However, Alexander won't have as much liberty to act, relative to his backyard, the Middle East. Where he could simply waltz in there and roll over problem states with his tanks, the Caribbean requires sea power. Thus, much as the bulk of North America saw him using Victoria and covert action for deniability even after the collapse of the United States, the Caribbean will see him use a lighter touch.
      • Lighter or not, this is relative to him going scorched earth on Saudi Arabia, so it's still not great.
    • Broad sequence of events as follows:
      • Collapse hits, world in chaos, everybody abruptly has to reconsider their economic situations. Several people are in a great deal of trouble. Things actually have an opportunity to start settling out prior to Alexander's first involvement; he waits not just until the United States is dead, but until the New American Confederation is dead and gone and he feels confident of the status of the nukes.
      • Alexander starts moving in. There is absolutely no difficulty in finding an excuse to, "restore order," in Panama. It's a major shipping lane. Probably fell under PRC influence for a while, actually; their efforts to establish a sphere in the Americas -- and especially their early outreach to Victoria -- would almost demand control of that. So that would place Alexander cementing control over the region at least after the Cascadian War.
        • We might see him establishing some footholds prior to the PRC's dissolution, but his subjugation of Panama, and overall control of the region, would need to be at least after that. Thus, after 2042.
        • That said, it would need to be done by 2047, because the Russian Navy needs to be capable of conducting an intervention in the Pacific War by then. We have a five-year span of naval action for Alexander's Caribbean Fleet to gain field experience and secure the region (in fact, this general expedition is likely the foundation of Imperial Russia's navy; it would be constant, albeit low-intensity, action to establish and develop their doctrine and inform build plans in the future. The Caribbean Fleet is likely the best in the Russian Navy).
        • By convenient coincidence, this is the time span where Rumford places his exciting pirate adventure.
        • So, have Rumford's, "Ineffectually flailing at pirates," period be Victoria's one and only contribution to Russia' efforts at stabilizing the region. Rumford personally commands the very finest of Victorian naval forces in joining Russia's task force sent to level-grind and clear out the cruft so that the region may once more be made usable. Rumford promptly humiliates himself, gets bitched out by the local Russian Admiral -- who has enough to deal with trying to teach Russian naval officers how to boat -- and then goes home making up stories about Aztecs to make himself feel better (he does find Maria in all of this, the poor woman).
        • Alexander's efforts here consist of directly invading Panama, and then using blunt economic and military force to intimidate those remaining into doing as he says. Aside from Mexico, we'd see much less of him outright collapsing nation-states; what he wants out of the region is not any sort of conquest, and with one glaring exception -- Venezuela -- he has little reason to want them permanently destroyed. In fact, if the various states on the Caribbean can economically contribute to it, then all to Alexander's benefit.
      • By 2047, major operations in the Caribbean come to an end, regardless of whether or not their objectives are complete, as the Caribbean Fleet is pulled off-station in order to participate in the Pacific War (the downside of not using Japan for the war is that Alexander has to intervene himself even though he hasn't really built a fleet for that theater and has to pull in other ships to do so). By the time the ships come back, the new command has gotten used to simply holding ground and reporting success, so the pressure to be aggressive has passed. From here on, Russian forces mainly act to preserve the status quo, wherein they have secured control over the overall region, but left some nations largely uncoerced. This carries us through to the modern day.
  • Sub-Caribbean South America
    • Alexander simply did not have time or resources to overtly interfere here. The plot armor runs out somewhere, and it ran out here. I've listed just how many things he had to do in a very short time frame elsewhere; what already strains credulity would shatter gullibility if expanded to sub-Caribbean South America. This corner of the globe, at least, is left to develop more or less on its own -- although, of course, that does not equate to prosperity.
    • The initial collapse hits like a sledgehammer, as the economies are all quite involved in the global economy. That said, unlike the rest of the planet, they are not the subject of Alexander's determined wrecking efforts, and it has been decades. You will not have nations still barely struggling to their feet unless intra-continental conflicts have made it so. The top dogs in this region are on their feet, have established or are attempting to establish their place in the local order, and have recovered from the Collapse to whatever degree it is realistic for them to do so.
    • Alexander's efforts here would actually be -- gasp -- minimally prosocial. As pointed out, the Amazon is a carbon bomb waiting to go off, so Brazil would be the subject of Alexander's bold and risky endeavors in the world of mutual profit. See, Russia had no capacity to go to town on South America, but neither did Nazi Germany realistically have the capacity to conquer the entire planet. It doesn't always look that way while you're experiencing the events in question. A good bluff can open doors if you -- miraculously, to contemporary eyes -- look willing just to chat and deal.
    • So, by way of Brazil, South America would actually become the focus of genuinely positive Russian investment intended to stabilize the region, as long as Brazil played ball on Amazon protection. What would start with Russosphere nations being encouraged to give good terms to Brazil on critical goods would develop to similar deals elsewhere to ensure that Brazil never really had to deal with too much chaos on its borders. Keeping the lithium suppliers' pulses going wouldn't be an insignificant motivation, either. Thus, Alexander actually helps somebody, albeit offloading the actual cost of doing so to others insofar as is practical.
      • This is a deal Alexander can realistically promise -- and which has real attraction -- because, in the chaos of the Collapse, one trades if and only if one is able to see one's ships to the destination, by force if necessary. With Russia just about the only power able to promise such services on other people's behalf, Alexander has a lot of soft power at his disposal. He rarely uses it because he doesn't trust it when he has other options, but he has it, and uses it here.
    • Trouble is, you can't actually control people if you aren't controlling them, and as discussed, Alexander can't do that when the specific aim is to keep the region stable. And goods they use to stay stable, they can also use to grow. I don't actually foresee any sub-Caribbean South American nations falling -- and, in fact, they'll have enough breathing space and support to actually rebound on their own merits.
    • Come the quest's modern day, South America is back on its feet, and an active participant in the global stage in its own right. The days of Russian support are quite over; Alexander wanted them to survive. He has no interest in propping up rival powers. And they are rival powers; Russia has neither capacity nor interest in supporting South America beyond the resources he can get form them, and they trade for that. Thus, their interests in expanding their reach directly conflict with his -- and unlike them, his grip is visibly weakening. This is one among a few reasons for the powers of sub-Caribbean South America to take an interest in supporting Miami, as it causing trouble for Alexander that doesn't blow back on them is an obvious outcome. It's not like anybody wants to see the United States reborn, after all. Miami clearly is doomed for a squashing. Even if Alexander has no time, as looks likely, there's always Victoria-
    • Wait. The Midwest did what?
So, this is the broad shape of things. Any thoughts on further fleshing out the specifics? Within that framework, who's on top? Who's great friends? And will Bolivia ever be less fucked by quirks of geopolitics?
 
Argintina would def be on top I think. Not quite regional hegemon but first among equals at least. Probably the nation with the most abilityin influencing events in North America as well.

Brazil's economy is around 5 times that of Argentina's and it's per capita GDP is nearly the same. Plus Brazil is the one nation Alexander has to actively work to help, Argentina he just doesn't screw over. Why in the world would Argentina be on top?
 
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