Victoria Falls Worldbuilding Thread

Brazil CANNOT be permitted to fall. Does anyone remember the Amazon burning last year because farmers thought that with Bolsonaro behind them, they could hack and slash more farmland for cash crops and beef at will? Consider a situation where industrial agriculture actually breaks down, and people need that farmland for actual subsistence agriculture. Imagine how much damage fire and machete can do.

The Amazon is critical to any of Alexanders environmental plans; the biodiversity and the carbon sink function alike.
A coherent, stable government is important to keep it alive.
So unless the GM suggests that Alexander came up with some magical technology to change that, will need Brazil stable.

So this is a picture of Brazil by population.


And the rainforest.


Brazil's main population and cities aren't really where the rainforest is, and I think ALexander can use that. Honestly, it makes a lot of sense for Alexander to support a breakaway Amazon-Based enviorofacist state. Not only to protect the rainforest. Like, it's his modus operandi, when he has a problem and could solve it by being supportive and nice, or could solve it by arms, he goes for arms. Having the region break-away under his supported enviorfacists might be a good way to do that, especially if the rancher/greater Brazil doesn't want to play ball.
 
So this is a picture of Brazil by population... And the rainforest.

Brazil's main population and cities aren't really where the rainforest is, and I think ALexander can use that. Honestly, it makes a lot of sense for Alexander to support a breakaway Amazon-Based enviorofacist state. Not only to protect the rainforest. Like, it's his modus operandi, when he has a problem and could solve it by being supportive and nice, or could solve it by arms, he goes for arms. Having the region break-away under his supported enviorfacists might be a good way to do that, especially if the rancher/greater Brazil doesn't want to play ball.
The problem is that the ranchers and farmers are a large fraction of the population in the Amazon Basin. They wouldn't pose a deforestation threat to the Amazon rainforest if they didn't, y'know... live there.

So it would be very hard to create an astroturf faction of envirofascists, since (as noted) the local right-wing population is itself the main threat to the environment of the Amazon basin, for the same reason that a bunch of Victorians would be a threat to the Amazon if transplanted there.
 
The problem is that the ranchers and farmers are a large fraction of the population in the Amazon Basin. They wouldn't pose a deforestation threat to the Amazon rainforest if they didn't, y'know... live there.

So it would be very hard to create an astroturf faction of envirofascists, since (as noted) the local right-wing population is itself the main threat to the environment of the Amazon basin, for the same reason that a bunch of Victorians would be a threat to the Amazon if transplanted there.

I mean, he got an astroturf of retroculture fascists in New England, ecofacist Brazil is about as sensible. And given he's willing to work with nominally retroculture people despite his contempt, he can probably stomach working with non-right wing.
 
I'd like a bit of speculation on Uruguay, Paraguay, Ecuador, Peru, the Caribbean, and Central America, please. We've got enough on the biggest players for a first draft.
Carribean:
Haiti is fucked. As is the Dominican Republic.
A lot of their economies are tied into remittances from the US. AND tourism.
After FCNY stabilizes, that probably improves.

Puerto Rico has the capacity for food independence between agriculture and fishing, but isn't currently.
Half its GDP is manufacturing, half its manufacturing is pharmaceuticals. Cheap pharmaceuticals might be valuable if they can export them.
I dont really see Alexander feeding them after maybe the first year or so; there isnt any strategic reason for him to do so, and after the first year or so he'd stop.

How well they are depends on the competence of their government.
And how well they maintain links to places like New York, which has a significant PR population, and might well be interested in cheap pharmaceuticals.

Jamaica does export some bauxite, but its economy is heavily based on tourism and trade.
Its probably doing much better in the 60s and 70s than in the 30s and 40s.
I dont know much about Trinidad and Tobago. Or the Bermudas or Bahamas. Just that theyre in the tourism trade.

Cuba probably wields a disproportionate amount of influence in the Caribbean.
Its not food independent, but it does have a significant well trained military, and an expeditionary tradition.


Over a million EU citizens in the Carribean on various islands: Aruba, Curacao, Sint Maarten, Bonaire, Sint Eustatius, Saint Barthelemy, Saba, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Saint Martin. About 300k of them are Dutch citizens, more than 700k are French, and all those territories are part of the OCTA of the EU.

Cheaper and less disruptive to support them there than to have them finding their way back to the EU.

Central America.
Panama and the Panama Canal are important to Russia.
Costa Rica is probably used as a buffer by Panama against the more unstable nations of Nicaragua/Guatemala/Honduras/El Salvador/Belize.
Whether it survives as a nationstate depends on the nature of that arrangement.

Nicaragua/Guatemala/Honduras/El Salvador all have significant social problems dating back to the Cold War and CIA fuckery.
And they're all close enough to get caught in the backlash of the fall of Mexico.
Expect significant instability here. I would not be surprised to find Russian PMCs recruiting here for cheap infantry.

South America.
The Amazon basin is divided thus as of 2013:
Brazil: 58.6%
Peru:12.8%
Bolivia: 7.7%
Colombia: 7.1%
Venezuela: 6.1%,
Guyana: 3.1%,
Suriname: 2.5%,
French Guyana:1.4%
Ecuador:1%

French Guiana: I dont really see the EU giving up the launch facility here in the middle of a Cold War with the Russian Empire.
They are going to need satellite surveillance and communications capacity. As well as the commercial space community.
It probably gets bundled into the OCTA, along with the other former French territories.

Bolivia: Everything I've heard suggests there are significant social tensions here.
But I dont have the local knowledge to talk one way or the other.

Ecuador: Same here. I dont know enough to comment.

Peru: Moderately prosperous, food-independent, significant producer of raw materials, some petroleum mining and refining, significant manufacturing sector of mostly light industry. And they have a small(<1%) but influential Asian population of mostly Japanese and Chinese extraction; one of their Presidents was of Japanese descent. They should do fine.

Uruguay: To quote Wikipedia
Uruguay is ranked first in Latin America in democracy, peace, low perception of corruption,[11] e-government,[12] and is first in South America when it comes to press freedom, size of the middle class and prosperity.[11] On a per-capita basis, Uruguay contributes more troops to United Nations peacekeeping missions than any other country.[11] It tops the rank of absence of terrorism, a unique position within South America. It ranks second in the region on economic freedom, income equality, per-capita income and inflows of FDI.[11] Uruguay is the third-best country on the continent in terms of HDI, GDP growth,[13] innovation and infrastructure.[11] It is regarded as a high-income country by the UN.[12] Uruguay was also ranked the third-best in the world in e-Participation in 2014.[12] Uruguay is an important global exporter of combed wool, rice, soybeans, frozen beef, malt and milk.[11] Nearly 95% of Uruguay's electricity comes from renewable energy, mostly hydroelectric facilities and wind parks.[14] Uruguay is a founding member of the United Nations, OAS, Mercosur and the Non-Aligned Movement.

Uruguay is regarded as one of the most socially progressive countries in Latin America.[15] It ranks high on global measures of personal rights, tolerance, and inclusion issues[16] including its acceptance of LGBT people, ranking 5th in the world in the 2020 gay travel index.[17] The Economist named Uruguay "country of the year" in 2013,[18] acknowledging the policy of legalizing the production, sale and consumption of cannabis. Same-sex marriage and abortion are also legal.
Total population 3 million.Its only two neighbors are Brazil and Argentina.
It rides out the storm just fine.
 
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Brazil's main population and cities aren't really where the rainforest is, and I think ALexander can use that. Honestly, it makes a lot of sense for Alexander to support a breakaway Amazon-Based enviorofacist state. Not only to protect the rainforest. Like, it's his modus operandi, when he has a problem and could solve it by being supportive and nice, or could solve it by arms, he goes for arms. Having the region break-away under his supported enviorfacists might be a good way to do that, especially if the rancher/greater Brazil doesn't want to play ball.
As evidenced by what we saw last year, enough people live in the Amazon to burn the place down when they're not being restrained by the government in the cities. The average density being really low, doesnt stop them; fire is good that way.

A breakaway Amazon-based envirofascist state, by that said demographic map, wouuld not have the manpower to be viable.
They would not have the economic production to be viable either; the Amazon is immensely valuable for precisely the sort of things that a putatively envirofascist state would want to stop. And theyd be cut off from the coast and any sort of international trade by the rest of the country.

Most people do not actually want to go back to living under Retroculture conditions either.
And from what I can tell, Brazil has significant internal social tensions, but no centrifrugal tendencies.

I agree with you about Alexander's instincts. But there is only so far he can push it. He courted India and Japan; he's courted Iran and Turkey.
Not to mention that it complicates what diplomacy he does elsewhere; Brazil has the largest black population outside Africa, and he's backing the Victorians already.

And this is about where his resources are already stretched handling his near abroad.

And then there's the meta considerations. If we're pushing over Brazil, then there's no real way I can see South America is a power in the modern day.
Brazil constitutes over half its population, and a significant chunk of its heavy industrial capacity. A Brazil in chaos or burning is not going green or protecting the Amazon. A South America worrying about Brazil is in no state to be interested elsewhere.

Its like, how the fall of the United States took down Canada, Mexico and is still destabilizing Central America and the Caribbean.
 
Puerto Rico has the capacity for food independence between agriculture and fishing, but isn't currently.
Half its GDP is manufacturing, half its manufacturing is pharmaceuticals. Cheap pharmaceuticals might be valuable if they can export them.
I dont really see Alexander feeding them after maybe the first year or so; there isnt any strategic reason for him to do so, and after the first year or so he'd stop.
True. On the other hand, he needs more stuff than he has within the borders of Russia if he is to dominate the world- he needs an empire. He regularly wrecks nations that have the ability to be an independent power base outside his control, but Puerto Rico, as of the 2040s and 2050s, isn't that.

So rather than just destroy the place, I think he'd use its pharmaceutical manufacturing infrastructure and whatever else the place has going to benefit his own allies and client states.

Cuba probably wields a disproportionate amount of influence in the Caribbean.
Its not food independent, but it does have a significant well trained military, and an expeditionary tradition.
Russia may need them as a proxy in the '50s and '60s to wind the piracy problem back down without expending Russian manpower. Also, the Cubans fucking around on the Gulf Coast and in Florida further weakens America and Mexico, while Cuba itself cannot realistically become strong enough or widely popular enough to form a regional hegemon capable of saying "no" to Serious Russia.

Over a million EU citizens in the Carribean on various islands: Aruba, Curacao, Sint Maarten, Bonaire, Sint Eustatius, Saint Barthelemy, Saba, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Saint Martin. About 300k of them are Dutch citizens, more than 700k are French, and all those territories are part of the OCTA of the EU.

Cheaper and less disruptive to support them there than to have them finding their way back to the EU.
@uju32 , you keep acting as if the EU is a going concern capable of sustaining intercontinental economic and military activity in the post-Collapse period, at a time when most of its individual member states are in various states of falling the fuck apart and Russia is right next door actively messing with them and menacing them.

It's not.

The EU simply does not have resources to spare on distant populations that are potentially threatened by predatory action from their neighbors. Either they manage to refugee their way 'back' to Europe before things get too bad, or they're on their own.

Now, after considerable reconstruction, the EU is beginning to become a viable counterweight against Russia, capable of making its weight felt in global affairs. That was not the case in the 2040s or '50s; if it had been, the United States would almost certainly not have dissolved as completely as it did.

French Guiana: I dont really see the EU giving up the launch facility here in the middle of a Cold War with the Russian Empire.
They are going to need satellite surveillance and communications capacity. As well as the commercial space community.
It probably gets bundled into the OCTA, along with the other former French territories.
There's a period of 10-20 years in there where the EU is incapable of doing this. They cannot afford to launch satellites, dire as the consequences of failing to do so may be. When you can't even maintain continuity of government in one of your most powerful member states, when there are multiple major epidemics running around in series-parallel, when even feeding everyone is starting to feel like a stretch goal...

Your nation, your coalition of nations, is not going to give a fuck whether or not it retains independent space launch infrastructure.

Peru: Moderately prosperous, food-independent, significant producer of raw materials, some petroleum mining and refining, significant manufacturing sector of mostly light industry. And they have a small(<1%) but influential Asian population of mostly Japanese and Chinese extraction; one of their Presidents was of Japanese descent. They should do fine.
Yes, unless sabotaged, and there's not much incentive to sabotage them because they're too small to be a threat to the Russian global hegemony, and relatively easy to integrate as a client state.

Uruguay: To quote Wikipedia

Total population 3 million.Its only two neighbors are Brazil and Argentina.
It rides out the storm just fine.
Yes... and no... Because by being so small, and strategically located in Argentina's back yard, with no foreign guarantors of its security, it is a prime target for predatory violence by any Argentine government that feels predatory.

It is also going to get hit by spillover from any major civil unrest in Brazil. A nation of three million people has capital-P Problems if, say, 1% of the population of Brazil tries to take refuge within its borders, or even passes through its borders on the way to somewhere else. Because 1% of all Brazilians is something like 60% of all Uruguayans.

So even if Brazil doesn't collapse or have a civil war, Uruguay may still have Problems.
 
@dptullos , I think that's perfect. And it masterfully demonstrates the in-quest-canon strengths and weaknesses of Alexander IV as a ruler and strategist... And also illustrates my point about how supporting things like piracy tends to blow back on the world hegemon. Because when you succeed in owning everything and controlling everything, there's no one else left to rob except you.

Thank you! I really enjoy exploring Alexander's victories all through the period of the Collapse, and then the ongoing crisis when Russia is finally World Hegemon and the world is on fire. I think Alexander really is a genius, but he's overly focused on the things that he's good at. His less brilliant daughter seems to have more common sense than he does; whatever her faults, the Crown Princess seems to understand the value of stability.

Suggestions: Cuba

At the start of the Collapse, Cuba imported most of its food. When those imports began to shrink, the country was quite reasonably terrified. More and more of Cuba's resources were devoted to food production, but rations were shrinking and it was clear that something had to be done. Cuba still had a relatively capable and well-trained military, so the solution was obvious.

The Cuban government sold the services of Cuban "advisors". Then they sold the service of Cuban "volunteers". Finally, they dropped the charade and began to offer entire army units to the highest bidder. Every young man who left the country was one less mouth they had to feed, and so the proud Communist government traded the blood of their nation's citizens for bread.

All that can be said of Cuba is that most of the country did not starve. The government even survived, though that was less of a testament to the people's approval and more of an acknowledgement that Cuba could not afford a civil war. The old and the weak and the sick did die, and to this day many Cubans refuse to speak of the Collapse.

When Russia moved into the Caribbean, they found Cuba a useful proxy. So they struck a deal; Russia would help Cuba with food and basic survival, and in exchange Cuba would serve as Russia's enforcer through Central America. The Communist Council of Ministers signed a treaty with the Tsar of all of the Russias, promising to serve and obey the Russian Empire.

Five days later, the people of Cuba assembled. In an event that has been compared to the Singing Revolutions in the Baltic, they marched against the Communist Party and overthrew the government in an almost bloodless revolution. The provisional government assured the Tsar that they would honor the treaty, but that the absurd hypocrisy of being a "Communist" nation was simply too much for them. If they were to be a Russian puppet, they would not go through the absurd pretense that they were somehow keeping to "anti-imperialist" principles.

There is no ideological justification or excuse; Cuba serves Russia because Russia keeps Cuba alive. Cuban mercenaries- they stopped pretending to be anything else- enforce Russia's will throughout Central America. A substantial number of Cuban soldiers fought in the Pacific War, though there were no parades or public celebrations after the Pacific Republic's surrender.

Cuba enjoys a remarkably good relationship with Miami, and they have begun to develop more diplomatic connections to other polities on the American continent. This is somewhat concerning to the Russian Empire, but ultimately Cuba is trapped; as an island which is still dangerously reliant on imports, they cannot afford to turn against the Russians. In the Old World, before the Fall, Cuba took pride in its defiance of a hegemonic power. Now that the Russians have replaced the Americans, they have taken their place as the bitter but obedient dogs of the Tsar.
 
Thank you! I really enjoy exploring Alexander's victories all through the period of the Collapse, and then the ongoing crisis when Russia is finally World Hegemon and the world is on fire. I think Alexander really is a genius, but he's overly focused on the things that he's good at. His less brilliant daughter seems to have more common sense than he does; whatever her faults, the Crown Princess seems to understand the value of stability.

Suggestions: Cuba

At the start of the Collapse, Cuba imported most of its food. When those imports began to shrink, the country was quite reasonably terrified. More and more of Cuba's resources were devoted to food production, but rations were shrinking and it was clear that something had to be done. Cuba still had a relatively capable and well-trained military, so the solution was obvious.

The Cuban government sold the services of Cuban "advisors". Then they sold the service of Cuban "volunteers". Finally, they dropped the charade and began to offer entire army units to the highest bidder. Every young man who left the country was one less mouth they had to feed, and so the proud Communist government traded the blood of their nation's citizens for bread.

All that can be said of Cuba is that most of the country did not starve. The government even survived, though that was less of a testament to the people's approval and more of an acknowledgement that Cuba could not afford a civil war. The old and the weak and the sick did die, and to this day many Cubans refuse to speak of the Collapse.

When Russia moved into the Caribbean, they found Cuba a useful proxy. So they struck a deal; Russia would help Cuba with food and basic survival, and in exchange Cuba would serve as Russia's enforcer through Central America. The Communist Council of Ministers signed a treaty with the Tsar of all of the Russias, promising to serve and obey the Russian Empire.

Five days later, the people of Cuba assembled. In an event that has been compared to the Singing Revolutions in the Baltic, they marched against the Communist Party and overthrew the government in an almost bloodless revolution. The provisional government assured the Tsar that they would honor the treaty, but that the absurd hypocrisy of being a "Communist" nation was simply too much for them. If they were to be a Russian puppet, they would not go through the absurd pretense that they were somehow keeping to "anti-imperialist" principles.

There is no ideological justification or excuse; Cuba serves Russia because Russia keeps Cuba alive. Cuban mercenaries- they stopped pretending to be anything else- enforce Russia's will throughout Central America. A substantial number of Cuban soldiers fought in the Pacific War, though there were no parades or public celebrations after the Pacific Republic's surrender.

Cuba enjoys a remarkably good relationship with Miami, and they have begun to develop more diplomatic connections to other polities on the American continent. This is somewhat concerning to the Russian Empire, but ultimately Cuba is trapped; as an island which is still dangerously reliant on imports, they cannot afford to turn against the Russians. In the Old World, before the Fall, Cuba took pride in its defiance of a hegemonic power. Now that the Russians have replaced the Americans, they have taken their place as the bitter but obedient dogs of the Tsar.

Reminder that Cuba has previous experiences with collapse-type events due to the Special Period of the 90s and you'll recall that the 90s were not a period characterized by a flood of Cuban mercenaries. With the collapse of the American blockade, Cuba is probably better off in the collapse than the Special Period because they can actually trade with their neighbours.
 
Reminder that Cuba has previous experiences with collapse-type events due to the Special Period of the 90s and you'll recall that the 90s were not a period characterized by a flood of Cuban mercenaries. With the collapse of the American blockade, Cuba is probably better off in the collapse than the Special Period because they can actually trade with their neighbours.
In point of fact, trade is something almost nobody was able to do in adequate amounts.

Like, I'm not attached to a specific fate for Cuba, but their answer to impending starvation wasn't gonna be, "lol just trade."
 
In point if fact, trade is something almost nobody was able to do.

Like, I'm not attached to a specific date for Cuba, but their answer to impending starvation wasn't gonna be, "lol just trade."

Right, but my point is that they had famine in the Special Period of the 90s and didn't collapse or start selling mercenary units. Now they have more options that involve having the upper hand on the territories of the former United States and access to a world that's proooobably not likely to care about a blockade organized by a country that no longer exists.
 
You are correct Boss.

In fact...the answer is quite obvious.

Raid the American heartland for the goods. They have the military means to do it.

Raid.... or "Support the territorial integrity of our fraternal socialist allies (who are sooo grateful they send us their food surpluses)"?

>: V
 
Sell doctors. You get a doctor, and you get a doctor, everyone gets a doctor!

And seeing as how they're an important asset, the doctors also come with heavily armed "guards".
 
Reminder that Cuba has previous experiences with collapse-type events due to the Special Period of the 90s and you'll recall that the 90s were not a period characterized by a flood of Cuban mercenaries. With the collapse of the American blockade, Cuba is probably better off in the collapse than the Special Period because they can actually trade with their neighbours.

I may be wrong; I am certainly no expert in Central or South America.

However, it seems that Cuba currently relies heavily on trade with Venezuela, which is undergoing its own Collapse. Cuba can theoretically trade with their neighbors, but they are undergoing very hard times and Cuba has very little to offer them in exchange for food. The most valuable resources during the Collapse are food and guns; Cuba has one of these, but not the other.

In a sense, my proposal does have Cuba "trading" with their neighbors. They offer them trained soldiers with no personal stake in the outcome of an internal conflict, and their neighbors offer them food. This is probably one of the few forms of trade that survives and even thrives during the Collapse.

Right, but my point is that they had famine in the Special Period of the 90s and didn't collapse or start selling mercenary units. Now they have more options that involve having the upper hand on the territories of the former United States and access to a world that's proooobably not likely to care about a blockade organized by a country that no longer exists.

Cuba's issue here is not a blockade or sanctions, but the simple fact that one of the world's major food exporters has fallen apart. Chile and Argentina are not selling them food because Cuba has nothing to give them in exchange, and because countries that normally would export food are now storing it up so that their own people don't have to fear starvation. Cuba can't produce enough food to feed its own people, and in the Collapse world trade is more difficult and food is vastly more expensive.

I suppose Cuba could try to raid America for food, but it's more effective to sell your services to the local warlord rather than trying to gather the crops yourself.

Raid.... or "Support the territorial integrity of our fraternal socialist allies (who are sooo grateful they send us their food surpluses)"?

>: V

"Food surpluses" are a lot less common in the Collapsed world. I suppose Cuba could go full imperialist on parts of the American South, demanding tribute in food. That would be one alternative to serving as mercenaries, and I bet that Alexander would be happy to employ them to beat down any polities that started being too successful.

I wrote the Communist government's collapse because no matter what they do, they're going to end up bending the knee to Russia. Once they become part of the Tsar's Russosphere, the whole "Communist" thing is just going to be a bad joke.
 
Raid.... or "Support the territorial integrity of our fraternal socialist allies (who are sooo grateful they send us their food surpluses)"?

>: V
@AKuz you know what I said, and the American People would not take kindly to madness, as in there would be problems to the wider Cuban security.

Problems that can only be solved by Cuban Light Infentry.

I mean they can try to get some coastal puppets but the North American Confederacy (And their successors by and by) was a somewhat successful power dealer...and they'd have to deal with the early Revivalist movement who may have used Cuban intervention fear-mongering as a rallying point.

I'm not claiming that Cuban support doesn't have some brand of benevolence and good PR I looked at their economy, its gonna take more then the end of global trade to kill it.

But I'm also aware that communist and socialist states do not like organized opposition of people that have "Abused the citizenry" in the past.

Or maybe they are taking out their aggression for the Blockade of '62.

I suppose Cuba could try to raid America for food, but it's more effective to sell your services to the local warlord rather than trying to gather the crops yourself.
Texas Cowboy Warlord Era with Cuban Light infentry.

@AKuz I have an Idea for an Omake! If you want to consider it.
 
True. On the other hand, he needs more stuff than he has within the borders of Russia if he is to dominate the world- he needs an empire. He regularly wrecks nations that have the ability to be an independent power base outside his control, but Puerto Rico, as of the 2040s and 2050s, isn't that.

So rather than just destroy the place, I think he'd use its pharmaceutical manufacturing infrastructure and whatever else the place has going to benefit his own allies and client states.
He just occupied all of the ex-Soviet republics including multiple EU members, annexed Alaska, subverted Romania and Bulgaria, Iran and Turkey, set up a client state in Canada, and is squatting on much of the Middle East.
He already has an Empire which requires maintenance.

And he has skilled manpower constraints.
Russia was 150 million pre-conquests, is probably around 250 million now, and has to police the conquered, attempt to conquer more of continental Europe, and still build the basis of a first world economy while funding green research.

There are limits to how much he can do even with plotshields.

Note that he declined to go into Afghanistan despite it being resource-rich, and sharing a land border.
The US had trusted allies during much of its hegemony whose economies were intertwined with hers, and who shared much the same values.
Alex has allies of convenience whose interests sometimes coincide.

That alters what you can afford to spare. The more you grab, the less spare force you have.


Russia may need them as a proxy in the '50s and '60s to wind the piracy problem back down without expending Russian manpower. Also, the Cubans fucking around on the Gulf Coast and in Florida further weakens America and Mexico, while Cuba itself cannot realistically become strong enough or widely popular enough to form a regional hegemon capable of saying "no" to Serious Russia.
Cuba is a light infantry power, not a naval power.
I dont really see where said piracy problem is going to start from as petroleum products spike in price anyway.

I suspect, like I think I've said before on the main thread, that they were probably involved in stabilizing some portion of Mexico or Latin America in exchange for stable trade links of the things they couldnt grow domestically.
Not because they're too pure to take contracts from Russia. But it's a surer thing than getting entangled with Alex.


@uju32 , you keep acting as if the EU is a going concern capable of sustaining intercontinental economic and military activity in the post-Collapse period, at a time when most of its individual member states are in various states of falling the fuck apart and Russia is right next door actively messing with them and menacing them.

It's not.
The EU simply does not have resources to spare on distant populations that are potentially threatened by predatory action from their neighbors. Either they manage to refugee their way 'back' to Europe before things get too bad, or they're on their own.

Now, after considerable reconstruction, the EU is beginning to become a viable counterweight against Russia, capable of making its weight felt in global affairs. That was not the case in the 2040s or '50s; if it had been, the United States would almost certainly not have dissolved as completely as it did.
The EU does not need to project military power to subsidise keeping less than 2 million people able to feed themselves and stay on their islands, instead of attempting to make it to Europe as EU citizens and worsen the refugee and social situation there.
The basic yearly requirements are pretty fucking spartan; an official consulate with offical EU staff, advice, and the occasional cargo ship.

And most of these places are valuable as vacation spots and for their people. Not for resources or industry.
They are not at risk of say Cuba deciding to anschluss them for their oil.

The EU is 26 nations.
Of that number, Russia invaded Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and instigated Rumania and Bulgaria to drop out. They still have 21 nations and >350 million people. They may have been largely occupied by internal turmoil at the time, but controlling the movement of people is internal business.

This is not a simulation, so if the GM chooses to handwave these people as well, it happens.
But they asked.

There's a period of 10-20 years in there where the EU is incapable of doing this. They cannot afford to launch satellites, dire as the consequences of failing to do so may be. When you can't even maintain continuity of government in one of your most powerful member states, when there are multiple major epidemics running around in series-parallel, when even feeding everyone is starting to feel like a stretch goal...

Your nation, your coalition of nations, is not going to give a fuck whether or not it retains independent space launch infrastructure.
In which case Alexander would have parked tanks on the Channel coast by now after first striking everybody.
A place can only be so defenceless in front of a rapaciously expansionist authoritarian.

Maintaining a geolocation network is essential to the ability to use PGMs and modern aircraft, early warning satellites do just that, and communication satellites are equally critical to both civilian and military. I mean, you think Germany + Austria + the Netherlands + Belgium + the Scandis + Poland + Czech Republic + Slovakia + Slovenia + Hungary wont? The Poles wouldn't?

The country of Israel manages the recon satellite bit just fine on a defense budget of less than twenty billion.

French Guiana is not actually at territorial risk anyway barring the intervention of Alien Space Bats or plot fiat; its a country of 270,000 people with no oil or natural resources besides wood.
Its valuable to the EU because of its location, but all its neighbours share the same location.
Yes, unless sabotaged, and there's not much incentive to sabotage them because they're too small to be a threat to the Russian global hegemony, and relatively easy to integrate as a client state.
Not a client state, I dont think.
Both because they are too small and too far away,


Yes... and no... Because by being so small, and strategically located in Argentina's back yard, with no foreign guarantors of its security, it is a prime target for predatory violence by any Argentine government that feels predatory.

It is also going to get hit by spillover from any major civil unrest in Brazil. A nation of three million people has capital-P Problems if, say, 1% of the population of Brazil tries to take refuge within its borders, or even passes through its borders on the way to somewhere else. Because 1% of all Brazilians is something like 60% of all Uruguayans.

So even if Brazil doesn't collapse or have a civil war, Uruguay may still have Problems.
Argentina has evidenced zero territorial intentions towards Uruguay that Im aware of. They dont even have border disputes.
Nor do they have anything a presumptive expansionist government in Argentina would want.
And invasions are expensive.

As for Brazil, I maintain my assertion that Brazil is the linchpin of the subcontinent.
If it was destabilized at this time, South America is going to be in no state to be looking beyond its borders and the world is quite probably terminally fucked. I dont expect theres sufficient civil unrest in Brazil to cause significant population movement.
 
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Mexico and Central America are both outside the continental United States.
And are both in the sort of turmoil where professional soldiers and trained medical personnel would come in useful.
While I can see Cuba trying to form a socialist Caribbean bloc - and maybe even having some success with it, although dealing with Venzualan fallout would be awkward - the same equation would still apply. When the "Black Magic" powered plot devices are roaming the world before reality starts setting in and demanding sanity's due, they're going to torch any place that looks like it's doing too good or restoring order to their regions.

Now, as time passes, it's totally possible for Cuba to change, but we do need to address how they'd survive the worst parts of the Collapse, and it's looking like that's through total submission to Russian interests and utilizing what advantages the country has to work with.
 
While I can see Cuba trying to form a socialist Caribbean bloc - and maybe even having some success with it, although dealing with Venzualan fallout would be awkward - the same equation would still apply. When the "Black Magic" powered plot devices are roaming the world before reality starts setting in and demanding sanity's due, they're going to torch any place that looks like it's doing too good or restoring order to their regions.

Now, as time passes, it's totally possible for Cuba to change, but we do need to address how they'd survive the worst parts of the Collapse, and it's looking like that's through total submission to Russian interests and utilizing what advantages the country has to work with.
Forming a socialist bloc?
Maybe after the Collapse, though I doubt thats something the post-Castro Cuban govt is interested in.
Acquiring a protectorate ally where they trade skilled personnel in return for food exports? Way more likely.

The submission to Russian interests thing would only be a last resort IMO.

I mean, Cuba has generally had pretty good relations with Russia and its predecessor, both Soviet and post-Soviet. But having a frontseat for the destabilization of Central America, a bunch of whom were places Cubans bled for in the 1980s is the sort of thing that would make them avoid existential entanglements with Alexander's Russia.

And frankly, Alexander doesn't need them. He has Panama.

They'd be more likely to double down on domestic agriculture.
They export a lot of cash crops and import food; that is the sort of thing that would likely change drastically as the US collapsed.
They do have a significant pharmaceutical industry, but that requires the ability to export it.
 
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Cuba enjoys a remarkably good relationship with Miami, and they have begun to develop more diplomatic connections to other polities on the American continent. This is somewhat concerning to the Russian Empire, but ultimately Cuba is trapped; as an island which is still dangerously reliant on imports, they cannot afford to turn against the Russians. In the Old World, before the Fall, Cuba took pride in its defiance of a hegemonic power. Now that the Russians have replaced the Americans, they have taken their place as the bitter but obedient dogs of the Tsar.
If we go with your scenario, the Commonwealth clearing the Mississippi trade route and revitalizing the agriculture of the Midwest and select bits of the Great Plains may actually give Cuba an out from their situation...

Reminder that Cuba has previous experiences with collapse-type events due to the Special Period of the 90s and you'll recall that the 90s were not a period characterized by a flood of Cuban mercenaries. With the collapse of the American blockade, Cuba is probably better off in the collapse than the Special Period because they can actually trade with their neighbours.

In point of fact, trade is something almost nobody was able to do in adequate amounts.

Like, I'm not attached to a specific fate for Cuba, but their answer to impending starvation wasn't gonna be, "lol just trade."
Yesbut.

On the one hand, what must have utterly collapsed was high-volume, intercontinental trade. Tramp freighters operating over shorter distances probably didn't collapse quite so completely, as long as you could park a rifle platoon aboard to deter casual hijacking attempts. That kind of trade relies less heavily on the global financial system and is sustainable even on the level of city-states making deals with one another. Trying to stop it fully requires exactly the kind of expansive, fiddly deployment of large scale occupying forces that Russia can't afford and is specifically trying to avoid in most of the world. This is something to bear in mind.

On the other hand, by the time the US stopped blockading and refusing to trade with Cuba, the main food exporter in the region- the US itself- was no longer in the business, having been thoroughly wrecked as Step One. Cuba would be hard pressed to import food from anywhere.

On the other other hand, @AKuz isn't wrong to point out that this isn't the first time Cuba's been experiencing a famine caused by a shutdown of international trade enforced by the asinine dictates of a superpower, and indeed their Collapse-era situation may be no more restrictive, or even LESS restrictive, of their trade than the existing embargo imposed by the United States.

That's not a case of the solution to their problems being "lol just trade," it's just that almost all their options for trade were cut off or greatly cramped even before the Collapse, so they're in a very perverse situation now that on the one hand the global economy (which they were heavily fenced off from) is collapsing but on the other hand so is the superpower right next door that was personally making it their immediate business to hurt Cuba as much as possible. Russia hurts nearly everyone on general principles, but they have no direct grudge against Cuba personally, and Cuba simply isn't an adequate base of territory or resources or population to be any real threat to Russian ambitions. Which is a step up for the Cubans compared to the situation with the US.

I don't think the Russians or Victorians would be particularly thrilled about that happening, Akuz.
I'm picturing a string of Cuban-dominated enclaves along the Gulf Coast, all close to the sea, that are basically just auxiliary extension farmland for the Cuba proper. Russia might very well smile and nod at this because it accomplishes several goals at once:

1) It gives Americans in the general vicinity more targets to hate.
2) Specifically, someone to hate who isn't the Victorians, and whose presence indirectly helps the Victorians cultivate their network of influence in the American South.
3) It entangles the Cubans in a blatantly imperialist project on the American mainland, hurting their diplomatic credibility with other powers outside his immediate circle of control, even as the Cubans try to pass it off as "helping fraternal socialist allies" while grabbing all the food.
4) It keeps the Cubans busy maintaining those enclaves and securing them against the general chaos and bullshit of the North American mainland, and in particular garrisoning them heavily enough that the Victorians will pay heavily if they get any stupid ideas about "liberating" the place.
5) Specifically in the wake of the collapse of the New American Confederacy, having Cubans muscle in on some choice chunks of reasonably accessible farmland near the coast further stirs up the pot. It distracts attention from HOLY SHIT DID THE VICKS JUST DO NUCLEAR TERRORISM. And it introduces a faction that can soak up sporadic fire from any NAC remnants still reasonably well armed and equipped until those remnants are easy enough to break that the Vicks can finish them off.

I imagine that Russia may find Cuba actively more useful as a deniable, semi-independent catspaw in the Caribbean than as a dominated client state. Between this and the need to keep regional piracy down to a mild roar, the Cubans' own strategic necessities force them to do a lot of the things the Russians would want them doing anyway, while also undermining any popularity or credibility they could use to rally the region into any kind of coherent power bloc. Light influence over Havana- suggestions rather than blatant dominance- could well be enough to keep Cuba under control.

He just occupied all of the ex-Soviet republics including multiple EU members, annexed Alaska, subverted Romania and Bulgaria, Iran and Turkey, set up a client state in Canada, and is squatting on much of the Middle East.
He already has an Empire which requires maintenance.

And he has skilled manpower constraints.
Russia was 150 million pre-conquests, is probably around 250 million now, and has to police the conquered, attempt to conquer more of continental Europe, and still build the basis of a first world economy while funding green research.

There are limits to how much he can do even with plotshields.

Note that he declined to go into Afghanistan despite it being resource-rich, and sharing a land border.
The US had trusted allies during much of its hegemony whose economies were intertwined with hers, and who shared much the same values.
Alex has allies of convenience whose interests sometimes coincide.

That alters what you can afford to spare. The more you grab, the less spare force you have.
...You entirely missed my point.

My point is that Puerto Rico is a naturally vulnerable place with a disrupted economy and no protector in this situation. It also has specific kinds of light manufacturing that make it useful, and not a real threat or competitor from Alexander's perspective.

Alexander IV does not need to waste manpower conquering Puerto Rico or skilled engineers to build up its economy (much). All he needs is to sign a deal; they will have every reason to comply of their own accord. Puerto Rico thus falls under the "ally of convenience" category, or possibly the "easily bullied hanger-on" category if you're less sympathetic.

Cuba is a light infantry power, not a naval power.
I dont really see where said piracy problem is going to start from as petroleum products spike in price anyway.
In answer to the first, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Beating piracy in a maritime region with naval power is only one way to do it. The other is to break the landward power of the factions that engage in piracy. See for instance the Barbary Corsairs- sporadically suppressed with naval actions throughout the Early Modern era, but only finally and permanently crushed out when the French conquered North Africa in the 1830s and destroyed the institutions that operated the ships.

In answer to the second, successful piracy (which includes raids against coastal communities) has a LOT of potential to pay for itself, even if keeping the pirates in operation requires expensive commodities (like fuel). There's a limit, but given that you're still going on about how the EU can maintain a million people in overseas possessions even while undergoing intensive Collapse conditions, you really shouldn't be questioning how a bunch of guys with AKs and boats can get marine diesel fuel during the same time period.

The EU does not need to project military power to subsidise keeping less than 2 million people able to feed themselves and stay on their islands, instead of attempting to make it to Europe as EU citizens and worsen the refugee and social situation there.
The basic yearly requirements are pretty fucking spartan; an official consulate with offical EU staff, advice, and the occasional cargo ship.
Yes. This still represents an investment of easily a billion euros a year or more, at a time when the territorial security and food security of Europe itself is very much uncertain.

Funds for anything off the European mainland are going to be ridiculously tight. If they DO, as you repeatedly assert in an exasperatingly cocksure manner, have the funds to maintain their space launch infrastructure, they're going to be doing it out of desperate "do or die" commitment to maintaining their military budget. And there won't be a lot left over to feed people on islands of no strategic value.

Argentina has evidenced zero territorial intentions towards Uruguay that Im aware of. They dont even have border disputes.
Nor do they have anything a presumptive expansionist government in Argentina would want.
And invasions are expensive.
Take it up with the guy who pointed this out first...
 
Cuba is probably in a similar situation to the Native Americans, in absolute terms they are probably worse off from the collapse, but in relative terms they could weather it better than most.

With the European Caribbean I have to agree that they were probably mostly ignored during the collapse. Most of the EU had trouble projecting power within their own borders, let alone across the Atlantic. Luckily(?) for the islands they probably weren't concurred by anyone for they same reason they were ignored, their strategic irrelevance. They probably have been started to be reintegrated now that the EU has gotten a bit stabler recently.
French Guiana I could see control being maintained if launch capacity is that important, but effective control away from the coast has probably been pretty thin until recently.
 
As cool as the idea of Cuban mercenaries sounds, I have to admit they probably aren't the best candidates in the region to fill that niche, and if anyone can weather the collapse decently well it's Cuba.
 
Honestly?

What Cuba could probably trade food for with the former US is a continuation of their Doctors program.
 
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