Victoria Falls Worldbuilding Thread

I like the general co-operation, but I feel like it would be better without the mouth noises part. Just, SA has kinda... stopped fighting, and ignores the powers when they try to get something going. Sure, Alexander probably could punish them for it, but in order to do so, he'd have to take forces off Europe, or China, or the Mid East. None of which he can really afford but... SA is kinda ignoring him. It's one of the real stretch-point that show how much his grip is weakening.
If you are pushing them to make hostile noises at each other, then you cant really object when they arm up their military with heavy metal.
If those weapons are coincidentally significant enough to make things very rough for Russian fleet basing in the Caribbean, well, South America is a big place, no? You need big, long range weapons to reach all of it.

*carefully hides the longrange cruise missiles under the bed*
*Nevermind Brazil's program for six domestically built nuclear submarines, they're for whale research*
 
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Should have clarified, Columbia's outreach has spread to all of Venezuela by now. The style of expansion is less open imperialism and more them trying to stabilize things so they don't have a border in chaos. Thus, their actions were not motivated by extracting value, but by setting up something viable — and hey, might as well tie themselves into it to get something back. They honestly have just about accidentally stumbled into expanding this way, and it's important to note that they haven't de jure annexed anybody; it's just that, functionally, the style of aid they've been working in has led to extremely tight political and economic ties to an area that cannot help but be subordinate, given how low it sank, with an extremely grateful populace.
 
If the Colombians are smart, their "grand Colombia" will be an alliance, and they'll rule Venezuela and Ecuador through friendly local elites that are very grateful for Colombia's aid during the bad times and who are loyal allies who take pains to make their countries friendly places for Colombian businesses to operate.

I second this. Client states make more sense than direct annexations.
 
I second this. Client states make more sense than direct annexations.
From the sounds of it, at least for Venezuela, they are something between a puppet state, client state and closely tied economic, political, military and basically everything else ally. They've just won the hearts and minds campaign so hard that the only reason the two nations haven't merged is probably the Columbian politicians absolutely not wanting to do that because it might give Russia the idea that they actually will be running with that whole 'Gran Columbia' thing. As well as emboldening the Gran Columbia popular movement to the extent it does take power. And Columbia is very aware of just what the Russian response to anything that hits of them having an interest in taking 'back' Panama will be...
 
Argentina seizes the Falklands. This probably isn't spectacular for the locals but there's no real impetus for a genocide, so at least they live. Their economy certainly crash-converts to fishing and fishing alone, though.
While part of the Falkland's economy is fish (mostly 200,000 tons of squid, significant export to the Far East) a second significant part is wool and sheep products, depending on how New Zealand goes the Falklands May end up contributing somewhat significantly to an uptick in lamb or mutton in the South American and regional diet. Plus the roughly 2000 tons of wool for Argentina/somebody's new textile industry. Or export to Russia.
 
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While part of the Falkland's economy is fish (mostly 200,000 tons of squid, significant export to the Far East) a second significant part is wool and sheep products, depending on how New Zealand goes the Falklands May end up contributing somewhat significantly to an uptick in lamb or mutton in the South American and regional diet. Plus the roughly 2000 tons of wool for Argentina/somebody's new textile industry. Or export to Russia.
New Zealand seems to have weathered the Collapse extremely well compared to many. With the only reason they didn't do as well as Australia (head of an alliance that is the major power in the south Pacific) is they lacked the natural resources and landmass to take advantage of.
 
This might be a bit cliche, but what do people think of the possibility of pf some of the Central American countries uniting? On on hand, it's a bit of a trope and I'm not sure if Russia would like that rallying of influence, but on the other maybe it's a Russian project itself. Maybe it serves as the main way of keeping Mexico disunited--although it would be significantly less important of a goal than the US, for personal reasons.
 
Some thoughts on a timeline of events spurred by trying to reconcile FCNY receiving substantial European aid and the EU not being able to control their Caribbean territories

2034- FCNY comes into existence because Victoria would be unable to absorb it due to its importance and massive population. Europe would be unlikely to support it at this stage because everything is going to putting out at fires at home and making sure Russia stops at Finland and Poland. Food and support probably comes from the New American Confederation.

2038-NAC collapses making FCNY very vulnerable, however the reasons Victoria didn't absorb it earlier still apply. Europe would see that FCNY is the only viable successor to the USA they have access too so supporting it would move up in priority, but there would still be very little to spare. This is probably the period were most of the treaties from Victoria limiting FCNY come from. There would still be some room on long island for agriculture, but a lot of Victoria's agricultural exports for that sweet hard currency were probably to FCNY.

2047- the pacific republic is subjugated making FCNY the most legitimate successor to many, meaning that refugees that previously wouldn't have gone to it due to it being nextdoor to Victoria(probably most of them) would now be more willing to go there, greatly boosting its population. Conveniently, this is about the time international trade starts to pick up again, so FCNY can start converting agricultural land to housing for the new population and getting less reliant on Victoria.

2050's- we know that sometime around 2060 that the EU puts the UK back together and that the EU is stable enough that it can contribute to a international economy, so the 2050s would probably be the decade that it puts itself back together. The countries that didn't collapse get reasonably stable and help put together the ones that did (eg Spain, France) or at least stabilize the situation (Italy probably). The lack of everything being on fire means a growing amount of spare budget that could be spent on FCNY, which probably increases after continental EU is stable enough that they start trying to reintegrate the Caribbean EU, where a friendly port on the other side of the Atlantic would be very helpful. Brazils outreach to the Guianas probably happens in the mid 50's as France is still disunited, but enough time has passed that the international economy has had several years of being on an upward trend of not dying, giving Brazil ehough confidence to do its own thing.

2060's- The EU starts to really be able to act on a global stage, French Guiana gets reintegrated (with autonomy) maybe some other Caribbean territories too, shenanigans in North Africa start to really get going, FCNY aid keeps flowing as it creeps ever closer to Maximum Land Use. Also trying really hard to keep the Balkans from exploding too hard.

2070s- the fact that Argentina has been getting Russian investment for over a decade and still hasn't really done anything against Brazil, and has faced no consequences for that is probably one of the things contributing to the sense that Russia's power is on the decline.
 
Some thoughts on a timeline of events spurred by trying to reconcile FCNY receiving substantial European aid and the EU not being able to control their Caribbean territories

You know, this is a REALLY good point.

Though, maybe the reason why Europe would support FCNY over their own colonies in the area is because they need Wall St? It is going to be hard for a currency to step into the shoes of the dollar after the US collapses, and it might be more convenient for the powers still standing - especially the pro-US/anti-Russia ones, to pretend that the US dollar is still good... And over time the zombie US dollar becomes de facto the FCNY dollar.

But of course, with Wall St. losing basically all of the rest of the US economy, it may be that a zombie dollar is just completely implausible. I'm not sure. People can pretend some right funny stuff about finance when they put their minds to it.

fasquardon
 
You know, this is a REALLY good point.

Though, maybe the reason why Europe would support FCNY over their own colonies in the area is because they need Wall St? It is going to be hard for a currency to step into the shoes of the dollar after the US collapses, and it might be more convenient for the powers still standing - especially the pro-US/anti-Russia ones, to pretend that the US dollar is still good... And over time the zombie US dollar becomes de facto the FCNY dollar.

But of course, with Wall St. losing basically all of the rest of the US economy, it may be that a zombie dollar is just completely implausible. I'm not sure. People can pretend some right funny stuff about finance when they put their minds to it.

fasquardon
Given the circumstances of how the Collapse started (with US financial fuckery under Trump), I'm pretty sure that the dollar as a global reserve currency was a dead or at least dying letter even before the final dissolution of the United States.

Wall Street is, realistically, very, very dead, and the financial markets relevant to the EU operate out of, uh... some city in Germany, I forget which one(s) have major exchange(s).
 
Wall Street is, realistically, very, very dead, and the financial markets relevant to the EU operate out of, uh... some city in Germany, I forget which one(s) have major exchange(s).
Frankfurt mostly. Probably the only one given that London's is likely dead, dead, dead, Paris is none too better. Maybe the Stockholm or Copenhagen ones made it through alright.
 
Final Draft On South And Central America
Guess who's back? :D

We return to work, now to wrap up the section on the Americas! The general consensus on the writeup from last time seemed to be that it was generally plausible, with some exceptions; thus, there aren't many changes I needed to make. Final versions of my rulings are down below, with changes from last time marked in bold.
  • Caribbean America
    • Puerto Rico
      • Coerced Russian client, massive native Revivalist sentiment as the result of a colossal refugee population. Dependent on external aid for food security, which is Russia's primary lever. Active rebel movements, none effective at preventing Russia's profitable exploitation of native biomedical production. PR has not been a darling for foreign support to date, and the rebels wither for lack of adequate armaments.
    • Jamaica.
      • A similar situation to Puerto Rico, save that they were conquered outright, and with virtually no prospects of liberation. The same kinds of rebel bands hide inland, but tend to be crushed more frequently; Jamaica sits very near to the Panama Canal, and is not understood to be permitted to be too troublesome.
    • Minor Island Nations And Various Overseas Territories
      • Nommed by Alexander at some point irrelevant to the story. They were never going to affect things. To varying degrees, they are Russian fleet bases, and receive precisely as much investment as they need to remain not an active problem from the increasingly stretched and unambitious Caribbean Fleet Command in Colón. Some sit atop vital routes of trade or supply for Russia's presence and commercial operations, and do not breathe without permission. Some enjoy de facto independence as long as they make the right mouth noises. This may make sense from a force conservation perspective, but it doesn't do the solidity of Russia's grasp on the region any favors. They are, indeed, an outstanding point of tension with their former owners, who are not happy.
    • The Bahamas
      • Meaningfully independent aside from mouth noises, and apparently affiliated with Miami to some degree.
    • Hispaniola
      • Haiti is an old Russian client from the earliest days of the Collapse, and is fairly comfortable with the arrangement.
      • The Dominican Republic was a PRC client, before the Cascadian Crisis, and thus are in a very awkward position. They play a delicate diplomatic game, trying to balance retaining independence -- including through foreign aid, where possible -- and being too troublesome and unprofitable to squish. The game has gotten considerably easier, now that Russia's grasp in Central and South America has been so visibly slipping. Lately, the DR has been openly reaching out to Europe, and to a lesser extent to the PRC's successor.
    • Cuba
      • Cuba had a rough time of it in the early Collapse, but were able to endure as always. Russia was willing to ignore the leftist aesthetics of their regime in the name of bringing them into the fold, and Cuba happily took the out. They are an independently active member of the Russosphere in the Caribbean, using traditional and more open means of intervention to exercise their interests in the Sea. They can be counted upon to resist encroachments on Russosphere interests in the theater, acting in concert with the Russian Caribbean Fleet.
    • Panama
      • A Russian client, and the center of Russian administration. Colón is the base for the Russian Caribbean Fleet. The nation is a focus region, and is kept thoroughly locked down.
    • Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Belize
      • As far as Alexander is concerned, all of a set. Nations in Panama's neighborhood that must understand they are not to make trouble. He honestly probably didn't actually topple regimes here, but the Caribbean Fleet certainly demonstrated in force to make clear that there was a new top dog, not to be messed with. The only people to actually feel the sting would be people who elected to be recalcitrant. I'm unsure of who that might, be, and it frankly doesn't matter. It's Russian-aligned country, now.
    • Venezuela
      • The Saudi Arabia of the Americas. In other words, annihilated to make the oil worthless. Past that point they became a part of Colombia's story.
    • Ecuador
      • Another oil export economy, they get a similar treatment to Venezuela, although their position on the Pacific means that Japan was likely the actual actor to make it happen, there.
    • Colombia
      • Due to their size and cooperatively-shaped energy sector, Colombia was an example of one of Alexander's rare experiments in bilateral diplomacy. He makes it profitable for them to cooperate with Russian interests -- including not fucking with Panama -- and they get his patronage, and blessing to act with nearly complete leeway in their neighborhood.
      • Colombia has, out of general self-interest, exercised this by acting to restore order in Ecuador and Venezuela in the name of not having borders in complete chaos. While there, they ensured they had a profitable stake in re-emerging local commerce, and in this manner ensured close ties with the extremely economically and politically dependent governments that resulted. It is definitely not a formal annexation, but it is equally true that everything from the Peruvian border to the eastern edge of Venezuela generally takes its cues from Bogotá.
      • This has sparked a yet-minor populist movement recalling the old ideal of Gran Colombia. Not yet a majority or even plurality cause, the leadership still has noted it, and are very careful with how they engage with it, in order to avoid any suggestion that they might have an interest in Panama.
    • The Guianas.
      • Brazilian-influenced states in recovery from the Collapse.
      • French Guiana in particular rejoined France in talks facilitated and mediated by Brazil, who used their support of the state during France's period of dissolution as a diplomatic in with the resurgent EU. The ESA facilities are intact, and the ESA continues to make use of them. Brazil also has a stake in them and use of them, as a part of their payoff for investing in the region.
  • Sub-Caribbean America
    • Brazil
      • The Amazon's significance to the climate forced Alexander to proactively engage to ensure the country stayed healthy. However, his ability to force people to do as they're told absolutely does not cover a nation as large, as distant, and as difficult to coerce as Brazil. He was forced to play nice, and essentially bribe them into surviving and keeping their hands off the jungle.
      • Brazil, however, has no reason to play the Russian game over the long term. Once they started outreach in the Guianas, Alexander pulled his support, as they clearly were doing fine. Today they are a power player in South America, and begin to make outreach further beyond. The Amazon is still fine; the tide internationally is firmly with environmentalism, and Brazil wants to be tapped into that current.
    • Argentina
      • Alexander panicked at Brazil proving unmanageable and tried to set up Argentina as their local rival. But Argentina and Brazil honestly get along fine. Argentina was happy to take Alexander's money and make mouth noises at Brazil, but there's no real public animus. Argentina prospers. They also took the Falklands, while the UK was busy not existing. The locals aren't really thrilled, but they live.
    • Chile
      • Japan attempted to make them a client, but that brought them into the Russosphere...with, temporarily, Brazil. And Brazil was a more attractive partner by far. Officially, they are in an alliance which vaguely promises mutual defense should any nation that share a land border with them start trouble, which is meant to imply Argentina without actually saying it in a way that could actually piss off anybody with influence. Nobody actually wants a fight, and the reality is an increasing trend of cooperation.
      • The situation with Brazil, Argentina, and Chile, and particularly with how comprehensively helpless Alexander is to impact it, is an increasing sign abroad of waning Russian power.
    • Bolivia
      • Probably the only actively angry nation in South America, and one completely helpless to do anything about it. Alexander doesn't even bother with them.
    • Paraguay
      • Drawn into the orbit of the growing bloc, pretty happy to be included since it brings in some money.
    • Peru
      • Fairly wary of being sandwiched in between a newly prominent Colombia and the southern bloc. Having received Japanese aid as part of Japan's sphere-building before Japan lost its ability to do that, Peru wound up tied loosely into the southern bloc, but they're still quite conscious of the fact that they're front-and-center to the still-Russian-aligned Colombian power to their north. They are slowly pursuing closer ties with the south, but are wary of making themselves a problem for Russia. Russian's increasingly-apparent inability to object to developments in South America is emboldening them.
    • Uruguay
      • Probably still trading happily with their neighbors. They have certainly suffered. Their economy relies on the export of food, so they didn't starve, but they certainly suffered. But with a developing South American consensus, a food exporter is always welcome. Also, 95% of their energy today is in renewables, so they have an exceptionally painless transition process, allowing them to kip back to their feet fairly swiftly once things resurge.
And that's the lot!

Next up: Africa, at long last.
 
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Lind depicts the pre-Collapse America as comprehensively incapable of doing anything much.

So, nope.

Ah, shame. Still, between us, Miami, and that big Puerto Rican revivalist movement I think there's still a chance it may become one eventually.

It would be a nice example of one way in which the new America is better than the old one.
 
I forget, what happened to the Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa?
Pacific/South East Asia.
Probably covered when we get to that, but my bet is on Australia getting to them first on general principles, with the help and active cooperation of USPACFLT at Guam. Said principles being "Keep Japanese fleet basing as far away as possible".
 
Pacific/South East Asia.
Probably covered when we get to that, but my bet is on Australia getting to them first on general principles, with the help and active cooperation of USPACFLT at Guam. Said principles being "Keep Japanese fleet basing as far away as possible".

The Virgin Islands are in the Caribbean though. I assume they're covered under "Minor Island Nations And Various Overseas Territories".
 
I forget, what happened to the Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa?
Virgin Islands were likely lumped in with Puerto Rico if they weren't taken as Russian territory. I want to say that they actually weren't because one of the things we've seen is that Alex was very careful to never actually claim American territory himself. He always had a newly created vassal or ally take it over if it was actually American territory. And wouldn't you know it, but there's the newly created Puerto Rico puppet right next door able to take control of it for him. Whilst at the same time ensuring that he has full access to the islands for any military need he develops there. But I can't be sure.

Admittedly in regards to actually taking American territory, there is the exception of Alaska but that's a lot more murky because it was historically Russian territory which was sold to America. He likely was able to excuse that once North America fell into chaos by basically saying that with the collapse of the purchaser, Russia is using their historical claim to come in and ensure the region stabilises.

As for Guam and American Samoa... I'd say that they both likely did align with Australia to start with. But I strongly suspect that Guam ended up conquered by Japan. Hell, it might be the trip line that had Australia go from 'Japan shouldn't bother with us unless we cause them problems' to 'Okay, now we need to plan for what happens when Japan decides to vassalise or completely isolate us'. American Samoa is probably still free though.
 
Minor Island Nations And Various Overseas Territories
  • Nommed by Alexander at some point irrelevant to the story. They were never going to affect things. To varying degrees, they are Russian fleet bases, and receive precisely as much investment as they need to remain not an active problem from the increasingly stretched and unambitious Caribbean Fleet Command in Colón. Some sit atop vital routes of trade or supply for Russia's presence and commercial operations, and do not breathe without permission. Some enjoy de facto independence as long as they make the right mouth noises. This may make sense from a force conservation perspective, but it doesn't do the solidity of Russia's grasp on the region any favors. They are, indeed, an outstanding point of tension with their former owners, who are not happy.
Talk of overextending.
That counts territories belonging to the UK, France, and the Netherlands.
Well, that certainly explains who is funding the Revivalists in Louisiana.

Jamaica.
  • A similar situation to Puerto Rico, save that they were conquered outright, and with virtually no prospects of liberation. The same kinds of rebel bands hide inland, but tend to be crushed more frequently; Jamaica sits very near to the Panama Canal, and is not understood to be permitted to be too troublesome.
This? Really not helping their PR in Africa. At all.
The optics of white Russian troops shooting up black and mixed Jamaican rebels is probably making Katrina tear her hair out.
 
Talk of overextending.
That counts territories belonging to the UK, France, and the Netherlands.
Well, that certainly explains who is funding the Revivalists in Louisiana.
None of those three countries are in any shape to get pissy over random islands several thousand miles from the metropole, when at least two out of three of them lost continuity of government.

Especially since an obvious Russian gambit would be to simply pressure the local government of the islands in question to declare independence during the decade-or-so period when their nominal 'owners' were providing no meaningful security. Or to use the Cubans as a puppet state to establish protectorates.
 
Eh not sure how big the ripple effect would be after the initial collapse of the USA or how long the after affects would go on for after the fall but a lot of south and central American Countries tend to use USD for a lot of purchase I've been through in some places like Ecuador, Costa Rica and Nicaraguas I found they prefer to take that over the local currency while in some other places like Argentina the dollar is used for more large scale purchases like say buying a house though I'm not so sure how accurate this one is since I only heard it in passing.
 
Eh not sure how big the ripple effect would be after the initial collapse of the USA or how long the after affects would go on for after the fall but a lot of south and central American Countries tend to use USD for a lot of purchase I've been through in some places like Ecuador, Costa Rica and Nicaraguas I found they prefer to take that over the local currency while in some other places like Argentina the dollar is used for more large scale purchases like say buying a house though I'm not so sure how accurate this one is since I only heard it in passing.
Being fair, there was the decade or more before the actual collapse of the USA in which the global financial situation was very shaky. With the USA hit rather hard. So it wouldn't be a surprise that by the time the true collapse hit, if those nations had actually already gone through those currency calamities. And then the global trade collapse truly took effect, along with Russia's rise. Which likely meant that they grabbed the Ruble with both hands as a stabiliser.
 
Being fair, there was the decade or more before the actual collapse of the USA in which the global financial situation was very shaky. With the USA hit rather hard. So it wouldn't be a surprise that by the time the true collapse hit, if those nations had actually already gone through those currency calamities. And then the global trade collapse truly took effect, along with Russia's rise. Which likely meant that they grabbed the Ruble with both hands as a stabiliser.

True but a lot is used for regular transactions it probably bit deep and hard when it did happen.
 
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