Things that I would like to respond to, but won't, because the QM said "take a breath".
"Take a breath" doesn't mean "resume the argument as soon as possible".
Victoria Falls Worldbuilding Thread
- Thread starter PoptartProdigy
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- Worldbuilding
Things that I would like to respond to, but won't, because the QM said "take a breath".
"Take a breath" doesn't mean "resume the argument as soon as possible".
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I will admit that to me personally, an ex-general coming to power after the military deposed the prior government and organized elections which he won with 97% of the vote does not sound good. Like, at the very least I do think it fairly obvious when the military has so recently proven willing to get rid of a government, we may presume that the new one has their active approval — and that they did something to secure it. Beyond that, it would seem that things are difficult to nail down.
That said, the question of Egypt's survival during the Collapse, to me, seems less relevant to the bigness of IRL's Chungus, but rather to their ability to withstand a complete collapse of international trade and finance. This process, in-universe, began with Donald Trump enacting a default on American sovereign debt.
I am confident both that Egypt has sufficient national identity to reform in the aftermath of a collapse, and that nobody nearby has the military capacity/motive to force that not to happen. The real question is if their economy can actually hold together enough that there was no dissolute period.
On that note: what is this I hear about Egypt having to import food?
That said, the question of Egypt's survival during the Collapse, to me, seems less relevant to the bigness of IRL's Chungus, but rather to their ability to withstand a complete collapse of international trade and finance. This process, in-universe, began with Donald Trump enacting a default on American sovereign debt.
I am confident both that Egypt has sufficient national identity to reform in the aftermath of a collapse, and that nobody nearby has the military capacity/motive to force that not to happen. The real question is if their economy can actually hold together enough that there was no dissolute period.
On that note: what is this I hear about Egypt having to import food?
How to Feed Egypt
A country with a bulging population faces crippling food security challenges. A high-level government commitment must address the availability of and access to food.
www.thecairoreview.com
Egypt increases imports, encourages domestic production to maintain food security amid pandemic - Egypt Independent
Egypt has expanded its import contracts and successfully met public demand for food by following a government action plan that came with the coronavirus outbreak in March, according to a report from Egypt’s al-Borsaa news website. Nomani Nasr Nomani, Advisor to Egypt’s supply and trade minister...
egyptindependent.com
Egypt's Food Problem In A Nutshell
www.businessinsider.com
Egypt imports a lot of wheat.
- Location
- The observable universe
Most of that is wheat, mainly cause local demand for its products is high and subsidised
Right. But if they suddenly lose access to those imports in the middle of an economic collapse with possible plague added in...
The argument wasn't "Egypt is completely incapable of food independence". The argument was "Egypt failed to make a successful transition to food independence at the worst possible time to make such a transition".
- Location
- The observable universe
Yes, i saw your worldbuilding suggestion and I mostly agree with Akuz's assesment of it. You neglect several key factors in egypt's food security apparatus like the effects of climate change on it (if you wanna a surefire way of making egypt depndent on russian imports for starts), Sudan being there as a puppet to loot and force to prop up the egyptian markets and the many projects currently aimed at expanding wheat production (so far in infancy but still). But sure if you wanna go the "corrupt oriental military goverment can't do food security" route no problem.
Also I lost all respect for your knowledge on the subject when you brought in pan-arabism into the mix instead of the currently far more widespread pan-islamic current
- Location
- The observable universe
Been looking for this map, thank you kindlyFunny you should mention Abdul Fattah el-Sisi. His predecessor, Mohamed Morsi, was one of the most inept politicians I've ever had the misfortune of researching. His attempt to basically ignore the hardcore Islamist constitution of 2013, one he pushed so hard to pass in parliament, secured his downfall. Among other injustices was his corruption in the 2011 elections (his cousin ram the election commission that oversaw the general elections, which surprise surprise isn't a recipe for transparent elections), the collapse of the rail network, and his ineptitude as a statesman. There's a reason as to why the petition demanding his removal had more signatures than people who protested in 2011. Protests rocked the country before the military ousted him. Ever wonder why there was no counter revolution to oust Sisi? It's because Morsi was that hated.
In addition, Egypt has a real democracy that has attenuated to the demands of its people. It has real elections, and a genuine government. I even consulted with an actual Egyptian to make an election map of their real-life elections, not alternate elections.
If you don't believe me, here's the National Election Authority's website
silverpower
Communism is yuri and nothing else!
- Location
- Portland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
IOTL, Egypt has made moves to assert currency sovereignity, like issuing bonds paying out in their own currency - this would simply accelerate the process. Honestly I think the forcible collapse of China and the destabilization of their eastern neighbors would be a bigger problem for Egypt than the prospect of maybe having to take Russia's coin again. But I think it's fair to say that they've got a good shot at staying at least nominally independent, whether in a Russia-dominated or multipolar world.
Also, yes, their politics are a complete clusterfuck. (Our mutual friend has done his best to explain it to me. I'd be far more alarmed if it *weren't* a messy clusterfuck.) It's hardly some weird "seamless dictatorship" model; it's as messy and bullshit as any other democracy, it's just that the West seems to be infatuated with the Muslim Brotherhood for some bizarre reason.
Also, yes, their politics are a complete clusterfuck. (Our mutual friend has done his best to explain it to me. I'd be far more alarmed if it *weren't* a messy clusterfuck.) It's hardly some weird "seamless dictatorship" model; it's as messy and bullshit as any other democracy, it's just that the West seems to be infatuated with the Muslim Brotherhood for some bizarre reason.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Take a look at the earliest threadmarks. The Middle East section eventually settled on the notion of pan-Islamism being discredited, in large part due to Iran's eager -- and Turkey's eventual -- cooperation with Alexander in razing the region to the ground. The notion of a pan-Islamic identity is discredited because clearly, ITTL, it has no motive force on national actors, and everybody can see that. Pan-Arabism is something we established as making a comeback because the common theme of the places in the ME Alexander dicked over is that they are Arabic regions, and his most active assistants in that were not. It is not a dominant movement at this time; I'm quite aware it's thoroughly discredited in our modern day, and has a lot of ground to make up.
Furthermore, in general, the present year we are worldbuilding to is 2076. The present state of things has quite a bit of time and pressure to change.
...I'm not here to give you any sort of fight, you realize. I am not opining that Morsi was an angel, and nor did my post opine anything on el-Sisi besides, "97% approval is kinda sketch, especially under the circumstances, and however it happened, clearly at some point the military decided they didn't really mind having him around." I did not accuse him of anything. I did not start ranting from a pulpit about corruption. I am not some arrogant westerner condemning an entire nation as a failed state based on secondhand reports I know to be suspect. The entire purpose of this exercise is me freely admitting my lack of grounding in the regions we are here to cover, and soliciting insight from those more learned. I do not particularly welcome the aggression of your entrance to the argument.Funny you should mention Abdul Fattah el-Sisi. His predecessor, Mohamed Morsi, was one of the most inept politicians I've ever had the misfortune of researching. His attempt to basically ignore the hardcore Islamist constitution of 2013, one he pushed so hard to pass in parliament, secured his downfall. Among other injustices was his corruption in the 2011 elections (his cousin ram the election commission that oversaw the general elections, which surprise surprise isn't a recipe for transparent elections), the collapse of the rail network, and his ineptitude as a statesman. There's a reason as to why the petition demanding his removal had more signatures than people who protested in 2011. Protests rocked the country before the military ousted him. Ever wonder why there was no counter revolution to oust Sisi? It's because Morsi was that hated.
In addition, Egypt has a real democracy that has attenuated to the demands of its people. It has real elections, and a genuine government. I even consulted with an Egyptian to make an election map of their real-life elections, not alternate elections.
Data Dump 2
CIA World Factbook 2021
SCREENSHOTS
Imgur album link with these screenshots and more
CIA World Factbook 2021
SCREENSHOTS
https://imgur.com/a/RAHSE2i
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While I am not a scientist, the article you linked seems to suggest that the effects of climate change will make things worse for Egypt's domestic food production. Which would increase the likelihood of a famine. Sudan is also a net food importer, and I don't think they're rich enough for prop Egypt up. The Collapse takes place in an alternate future during Donald Trump's presidency, which means the projects aimed at expanding wheat production probably wouldn't be complete.
As far as I can tell, Egypt does not have food security in the event of a worldwide economic collapse. Even if they did have food security, major food exporters like America still suffered from famine as a result of political instability, violence, plague, and general societal collapse.
In the QM's Middle East worldbuilding document, they mention that pan-Islamism is less popular in the world of the Collapse. It has largely been succeeded by a renewed sense of pan-Arabism. If you object to that decision, take your objections to the QM; I'm simply following the world as it has already been established.
As a general rule, I try not to be rude. When I am rude, though, I try to be right. You have been rude, and you have not been right.
Guys.
When the QM said "take a breath", I took that as a signal that the QM does not want us to further blow up the thread with a lengthy and furious debate about Egypt's current government. If that debate is still ongoing, I'm probably going to jump back in, because I have a great deal to say on this subject.
Or we can end it here, because someone has to have the last word, and that someone can be you. The QM can consider what we've said, and do their own research, and make up their own mind about Egypt. I very much doubt any of us are going to convince the other at this point, and despite my desire to continue the argument, this is the Victoria Falls Worldbuilding Thread, not the Debate Current Middle Eastern Politics Thread.
When I said "we could end this and you could have the last word", I meant "we could end this and you could have the last word". Not "let's keep going".
Yay food security.
Let me talk about an African country I know.
www.wathi.org
www.reuters.com
www.theafricareport.com
Nigeria consumed about 7.1 million tons of rice in 2019/2020. It imported 2.4 million tons of that, roughly a third of the total, primarily from Thailand, and produced the rest at home. It was also projected to consume 5.2 million tons of wheat in the same time period; Nigerians really like their bread, and have acquired a taste for pasta.
Much of their milk is imported from the EU, I think, but given that most Nigerians are lactose intolerant, its only used to sweeten cocoa and tea and coffee.
Classic case of food insecurity, right? Gonna get screwed by collapsing international trade? Well, it gets complicated.
For one thing, the picture is distorted by the fact that foreign exporters manage to sell rice at significantly lower prices than local producers(anywhere from 15-25%), which obscures the actual production capacity of the nation.
For another, the agricultural sector retains a shitton of slack, with Nigerian rice productivity at roughly 2 tons a hectare; according to Reuters, thats half the global average and less than a quarter of Egypt's 9.4 tons a hectare.
But here's the point that people who dont know the country miss: rice is not the king crop. Nor is wheat.
Nigeria is the world's single biggest producer of cassava(~59 million tons, FAO, 2019) and yam(~50 million tons, FAO, 2019), produces a lot of maize (11 million tons, FAO, 2019) the fifth largest producer of oil palm(10 million tons, FAO, 2019), and is also a significant producer of pulses and cereals like millet and sorghum. Rice or wheat shortages due to the Collapse would just drives consumption of other things instead.
I mean, dont get me wrong.
Nigeria has a large and growing population, currently at 219 million and projected to hit 260 million by 2030 and 400 million by 2050, and >700 million by 2100. Food production has to keep scaling up. And there are currently local food shortages in the northeast due to population displacement subsequent to the Boko Haram insurgency; coincidentally, that's where most of Nigeria's native wheat comes from.
But none of these should be taken to imply that the Collapse would lead to actual caloric shortages due to demand exceeding supply.
You need war and fleeing populations for that.
Let me talk about an African country I know.
Nigeria’s Imports of Wheat and Rice to Rise, FAS-USDA
Author: Mariano J. Beillard Site of publication: USDA – Foreign Agricultural Service (FAS-USDA) Type of publication: Report Date of publication: May 6,
www.wathi.org
A growing problem: Nigerian rice farmers fall short after borders close
Thomas Tyavwva Maji is planting rice on more of his land in Nigeria's Benue State than ever to take advantage of a surge in prices since the country shut its land borders in August.
www.reuters.com
Nigeria takes drastic measures to ensure local rice production - The Africa Report.com
Nigeria has taken drastic measures to develop its local rice production, riding on the coattails of Mali, Senegal and Côte d’Ivoire.
www.theafricareport.com
Nigeria consumed about 7.1 million tons of rice in 2019/2020. It imported 2.4 million tons of that, roughly a third of the total, primarily from Thailand, and produced the rest at home. It was also projected to consume 5.2 million tons of wheat in the same time period; Nigerians really like their bread, and have acquired a taste for pasta.
Much of their milk is imported from the EU, I think, but given that most Nigerians are lactose intolerant, its only used to sweeten cocoa and tea and coffee.
Classic case of food insecurity, right? Gonna get screwed by collapsing international trade? Well, it gets complicated.
For one thing, the picture is distorted by the fact that foreign exporters manage to sell rice at significantly lower prices than local producers(anywhere from 15-25%), which obscures the actual production capacity of the nation.
For another, the agricultural sector retains a shitton of slack, with Nigerian rice productivity at roughly 2 tons a hectare; according to Reuters, thats half the global average and less than a quarter of Egypt's 9.4 tons a hectare.
But here's the point that people who dont know the country miss: rice is not the king crop. Nor is wheat.
Nigeria is the world's single biggest producer of cassava(~59 million tons, FAO, 2019) and yam(~50 million tons, FAO, 2019), produces a lot of maize (11 million tons, FAO, 2019) the fifth largest producer of oil palm(10 million tons, FAO, 2019), and is also a significant producer of pulses and cereals like millet and sorghum. Rice or wheat shortages due to the Collapse would just drives consumption of other things instead.
I mean, dont get me wrong.
Nigeria has a large and growing population, currently at 219 million and projected to hit 260 million by 2030 and 400 million by 2050, and >700 million by 2100. Food production has to keep scaling up. And there are currently local food shortages in the northeast due to population displacement subsequent to the Boko Haram insurgency; coincidentally, that's where most of Nigeria's native wheat comes from.
But none of these should be taken to imply that the Collapse would lead to actual caloric shortages due to demand exceeding supply.
You need war and fleeing populations for that.
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silverpower
Communism is yuri and nothing else!
- Location
- Portland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The sense I'm getting from discussing this with our mutual friend is "the future is still in flux" - it's just that we're obviously disagreeing about what the initial conditions are. Egypt is still very much in transition, but "to what" is a question impossible to answer right now. I still think they'd at the very least survive the initial stages of the Collapse - they're just stuck in the same boat as everyone else who pivoted to China. It really doesn't help that their system is a relatively new development - it's been in power for six years when Trump decides to light sovereign debt on fire. (Debt that Egypt has limited exposure to.)
One intriguing possibility is "Egypt as Arab metropole", which seems to be what the neoliberal faction wants even IOTL. The Collapse, should their faction survive and take power, would give them leverage to start reshaping the Middle East in their favor. For obvious reasons, they wouldn't be uncontested, but this faction would probably also be very willing to get in bed with Russia and act as their junior strategic partner, much as they did with America under Sadat and Mubarak. While numerically small within the parliament, they do have influence in Egypt's media landscape and the private banks. If they play their cards right, the boot stamping on the faces of those Alexander couldn't be bothered with in the Middle East will almost certainly be Egyptian. "Modern Egypt"-branded, at that.
There are, of course, other possibilities. While the neoliberal faction has some support, this is not a neoliberal wank, for obvious reasons. Since the European Union is off the board, China will be off the board after a while (but still quite interested in Africa until the PRC *does* implode), and Russia is ascendant, the response by the Egyptian ruling class may also be to pivot to Africa, basically going it alone, or "alone". Not doing anything to cross Russia, but not particularly interested in playing off-continent geopolitics. They are an African great power, and it's high time they acted like it. I'm less confident about what that would look like or what it would entail. This would probably result from staying the course with China until they implode and B&R falls apart. What would be true is that they're a major player in African politics. So long as no other party attempts to monopolize the Suez Canal, Egypt need not care for what happens outside the continent.
Were I writing the full timeline, and not William Lind, there would obviously be the possibility of an Egyptian transition to (open) socialism. This has been foreclosed in part by geopolitics, but was a possibility at one or even several points. Yet, as a libertarian communist myself, never say never. Our Egyptian comrades may yet prevail in the 2070s, just not today.
How they would respond to resurgent pan-Arabism would remain to be seen. Alexander IV's decarbonization politics align with current and apparently future Egyptian domestic policy goals, so it's unlikely Alexander IV needs to use the stick to get Egypt to abide by the climate goals that Russia sets. (He might have to rap the knuckles of the Egyptian neoliberals, but there is a pretty broad consensus towards decarbonization. The oil money won't last forever, after all.) Tensions over Ethiopia's GERD project aren't fully resolved yet, either. The good news IOTL is that things haven't gone too badly. That might be a crisis flashpoint, but hardly a fatal one.
One intriguing possibility is "Egypt as Arab metropole", which seems to be what the neoliberal faction wants even IOTL. The Collapse, should their faction survive and take power, would give them leverage to start reshaping the Middle East in their favor. For obvious reasons, they wouldn't be uncontested, but this faction would probably also be very willing to get in bed with Russia and act as their junior strategic partner, much as they did with America under Sadat and Mubarak. While numerically small within the parliament, they do have influence in Egypt's media landscape and the private banks. If they play their cards right, the boot stamping on the faces of those Alexander couldn't be bothered with in the Middle East will almost certainly be Egyptian. "Modern Egypt"-branded, at that.
There are, of course, other possibilities. While the neoliberal faction has some support, this is not a neoliberal wank, for obvious reasons. Since the European Union is off the board, China will be off the board after a while (but still quite interested in Africa until the PRC *does* implode), and Russia is ascendant, the response by the Egyptian ruling class may also be to pivot to Africa, basically going it alone, or "alone". Not doing anything to cross Russia, but not particularly interested in playing off-continent geopolitics. They are an African great power, and it's high time they acted like it. I'm less confident about what that would look like or what it would entail. This would probably result from staying the course with China until they implode and B&R falls apart. What would be true is that they're a major player in African politics. So long as no other party attempts to monopolize the Suez Canal, Egypt need not care for what happens outside the continent.
Were I writing the full timeline, and not William Lind, there would obviously be the possibility of an Egyptian transition to (open) socialism. This has been foreclosed in part by geopolitics, but was a possibility at one or even several points. Yet, as a libertarian communist myself, never say never. Our Egyptian comrades may yet prevail in the 2070s, just not today.
How they would respond to resurgent pan-Arabism would remain to be seen. Alexander IV's decarbonization politics align with current and apparently future Egyptian domestic policy goals, so it's unlikely Alexander IV needs to use the stick to get Egypt to abide by the climate goals that Russia sets. (He might have to rap the knuckles of the Egyptian neoliberals, but there is a pretty broad consensus towards decarbonization. The oil money won't last forever, after all.) Tensions over Ethiopia's GERD project aren't fully resolved yet, either. The good news IOTL is that things haven't gone too badly. That might be a crisis flashpoint, but hardly a fatal one.
In order:
The Delta insurgency died after the Federal government paid off the agitators.
There has always been a real problem with how the oil companies operated in the Niger Delta, and sympathies for the agitators, but there has never been the will in the area for violence, and the insurgents were frankly more into oil bunkering and kidnap for ransom than anything else.
Nigeria is weathering the pandemic surprisingly well IRL.
There was a quick spate of deaths of older rich people in the north, but between public health measures and Nigeria's relatively young population, Im not seeing anything like the India situation.
Boko Haram is a northeast problem.
It started with political patronage of a religious extremist for votes, continued into extrajudicial killing of their leader, and is currently where we are at, with a force of ~10k or more people fighting a bush war in the northeast with arms trickling out of Libya. But it has stayed a primarily Borno-area issue. Youll know that the Nigerian government has actually decided its an existential threat when they decide to add a couple extra divisions to the army.
The political class is a major part of Nigeria's actual problem.
But the detonation of the Anglosphere and the world financial system neuters them by wiping out most of their expropriated assets and eliminating the foreign havens they customarily flee to and send their children to for education. You're looking at potentially a very different situation in play.
Im not sure where you see tension from.
Britain's colonies in West Africa retain significant cultural links with the country for good and for ill. Even when the British government is unpopular, the British people are generally quite welcome in West Africa. At least, the people they send to West Africa.
And West African emigres in the West funnel significant amounts of funds home, so they would be welcome even if they didnt already have bloodlinks.
EDIT
Basically, bloody?
Not very likely. Nigeria is nothing like the powder keg picture you're painting.
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The Egypt discussion has been very interesting. I'm gonna be digesting that discussion for a while.
Regardless of how we interpret what Egypt looks like now, I am optimistic for Egypt's capability to survive the collapse. The country is a strong middle income country with a vital geostrategic location. Given that Alex had been busy using Russian power to smash so much of the world, I don't see how he'd have the resources to go after Egypt. Especially when he needs a functioning state able to keep the Suez canal open and water from the Nile flowing to the canal.
I don't doubt there'd be hardship, but I think Egypt could cope. Indeed, with an artery as important as the Suez under their control, I think they'd manage relatively well, since they're always going to have some amount of hard currency to hand, whatever currencies count as hard when and because pretty much everyone has an interest in the country staying stable.
And as far as pan-Arabism-versus-Islamism, what if instead Egypt goes back to Pharonism?
And there's no particular reason why Nigeria couldn't get significantly higher yields. The technology exists, the know-how exists, the main obstacle in the way is that it is just not profitable to invest in agriculture when it is easier and cheaper to import subsidized milk from the EU and subsidized grain from North America.
The main issue is whether Nigeria can invest enough into agriculture to avoid serious starvation before the collapse hits them hard. Personally, I am optimistic on that front. I am less optimistic about food distribution being handled well during the collapse, but I think the state could survive those issues.
fasquardon
Regardless of how we interpret what Egypt looks like now, I am optimistic for Egypt's capability to survive the collapse. The country is a strong middle income country with a vital geostrategic location. Given that Alex had been busy using Russian power to smash so much of the world, I don't see how he'd have the resources to go after Egypt. Especially when he needs a functioning state able to keep the Suez canal open and water from the Nile flowing to the canal.
I don't doubt there'd be hardship, but I think Egypt could cope. Indeed, with an artery as important as the Suez under their control, I think they'd manage relatively well, since they're always going to have some amount of hard currency to hand, whatever currencies count as hard when and because pretty much everyone has an interest in the country staying stable.
And as far as pan-Arabism-versus-Islamism, what if instead Egypt goes back to Pharonism?
And there's no particular reason why Nigeria couldn't get significantly higher yields. The technology exists, the know-how exists, the main obstacle in the way is that it is just not profitable to invest in agriculture when it is easier and cheaper to import subsidized milk from the EU and subsidized grain from North America.
The main issue is whether Nigeria can invest enough into agriculture to avoid serious starvation before the collapse hits them hard. Personally, I am optimistic on that front. I am less optimistic about food distribution being handled well during the collapse, but I think the state could survive those issues.
fasquardon
Believe me when I say internal distribution in Nigeria seems to manage just fine IRL.
Nigeria is one of the surviving significant oil producers after Alexander nuked the Middle East, and his jacking up the prices of petroleum products benefits them in the short to medium term. They have the funds, they have no border threats to distract them. They should do fine in that regard.
The actual problems I see are mainly to do with things like the pandemics that allegedly hit that century.
Since Nigeria doesnt have a significant indigenous pharmaceutical research capacity in the modern day, they and most of the rest of Africa will be sucking hind tit on that. Public health measures only.
Not heroin, codeine.
Because it was sold over the counter in cough syrup, and some pharmaceutical agents chose to make a killing. And in places where alcohol was
There is significant problems with government income, because its dominated by petroleum.
Thats really not the same thing.
Oil is 9% of Nigeria's GDP. It just happens to be ~70% of government revenues.
I dont see Nigeria collapsing. The core fundamentals remain strong, and some are actually improved by Alexander's actions.
If it did, I'd expect it to take down the rest of the West African region with it and Central Africa as well; its half of West Africa's population and roughly 80% of the region's economic activity. Something like that doesnt go down without major ripple effects
EDIT
Eh. West Africa is not North America, and borders are more suggestions for people living near them. You'd be surprised at how many immigrants there are in Nigeria from neighboring countries, and vice versa.
Tribal violence is a thing, but xenophobia is not an established thing there to my knowledge.
Now over in South Africa, yes. There's a documented history.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
Going back to the time of the pharohes would make as much sense as Rome returning to the Principate Empire or the UK returning to tribal warlordism. Frankly its pretty orientalist to suggest it, even in jest.
- Location
- Amman, Jordan
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- He/Him/His
That would require a return to the cultural tenets of Ancient Egypt which... let's be honest, was deader than dead since the death of Cleopatra. The only ones who speak the language today are the Copts, and they're a minority in the country. Plus, even they don't really follow ancient Egyptian culture anymore. The vast majority of the populace, meanwhile, is more decidedly Arab, so Pharaonism will make as much sense to them as the Mandate of Heaven.
Speaking of the Copts, though, I recall from Coiler's Let's Read that Rumford exchanged the Muslims in Victoria for the Copts in Egypt, so that they'd be Christians free from oppression. Am I misremembering this? And if not, did this actually happen or did the QM go "nope, my bullshit meter can't cope with this"?
kelgar04
Knight Watcher
- Location
- Here and no were
Pretty much also Cleopatra the last pharaoh was Greek as were most of them after Alexander the Greats death.
With out saying to much she was one of the better Pharaohs of her Dynasty since the whole Ptolemy was nuts and their inbreeding makes the Hapaburgs and Targs look like the pinnacle of genetic diversity.
But on the Subject of Egypt it's probably had a shotgun wedding to the Russian sphere of influence since they will want the Suez Canal under their influence if not direct control assuming they can get it. That's all predicated on the assumption that is still there of course and not damages though I could see russia and the EU wanting to rebuild it eventually. Mainly beacuse it's to damned convient from an economic and strategic stand point even if Globalisation has hit rock bottom there is still going to be merchant traffic out there.
With out saying to much she was one of the better Pharaohs of her Dynasty since the whole Ptolemy was nuts and their inbreeding makes the Hapaburgs and Targs look like the pinnacle of genetic diversity.
But on the Subject of Egypt it's probably had a shotgun wedding to the Russian sphere of influence since they will want the Suez Canal under their influence if not direct control assuming they can get it. That's all predicated on the assumption that is still there of course and not damages though I could see russia and the EU wanting to rebuild it eventually. Mainly beacuse it's to damned convient from an economic and strategic stand point even if Globalisation has hit rock bottom there is still going to be merchant traffic out there.
- Location
- Amman, Jordan
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The Ptolemy dynasty pretty much did as any Pharaoh dynasty would; hell, they followed the Egyptian laws to better fit in with the populace and be accepted as rulers. Sort of how the Qing upheld the Mandate of Heaven when they became rulers of China. Admittedly, the Egyptians were more accepting of the Ptolemys than the Chinese were of the Manchu.
kelgar04
Knight Watcher
- Location
- Here and no were
Fair point I just remember my brain breaking a bit when I looked at their family tree when I first for a look at it.
- Location
- Amman, Jordan
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
That's certainly true. That kind of families made you wonder how they didn't all become eight-toed drooling morons.
kelgar04
Knight Watcher
- Location
- Here and no were
True it is rather baffling that
Heck look at Charles the Second of Spain and his continued ability to surprise people by the fact he lived as long as he did. When he was born the he was practically waiting to die given all that was wrong with him.