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Type Moon General

A Nation's Virtue said:
Well, it's something all Masters were supposed to do, and he was telling it to his student who he trusted.
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not realy, most Masters were told only 6 Servants had to die so they can get a wish, only the Tohsaka's, Makiri's and Einzberns knew about the whole "7 dead Servants = gate to the Root" deal. Kirei had no reason to know this little tidbit since he was not supposed to win the War. heck, even Kariya probably didnt know that, since Zouken was more interested in watching him suffer then actualy help him win.
 
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Yonatan said:
not realy, most Masters were told only 6 Servants had to die so they can get a wish, only the Tohsaka's, Makiri's and Einzberns knew about the whole "7 dead Servants = gate to the Root" deal. Kirei had no reason to know this little tidbit since he was not supposed to win the War.
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Considering that Tokiomi was supposed to be teaching him, I don't see why he would do that. Not everyone operates on a "need to know" basis like the military.
 
Well, there's the fact that up until Kirei stabbed him in the back, Tokiomi had practically zero reason to distrust him. Kirei didn't even begin to desire the grail until halfway through the war, and up until that point, he has played the role of a loyal apprentice very well. Short of Tokiomi developing mind reading powers, there was really no chance he could have foreseen the betrayal coming in advance.
 
UBW good is fine because Saber gets some reprieve. Is that the reason for the Shirou Saber scenes? I don't know. Ufotable may have just decided to showcase the differences between Kiritsugu and Shirou in every other episode.
 
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The second Tokiomi summoned Gil, he had probably lost already. Hakuno in CCC has to use all 3 command seals to prevent Gil from offing him on a whim. A suicide command would never have worked.
 
Really, the best (and only) way to deal with Servant Gil in a Grail War is "I'm going to sit here and be a good little prana battery while you, O King of Kings, handle your affairs, unless of course you have some other task for which your humble vassal is well suited."

Don't try to boss him, don't try to command seal him, just shut up and take orders while hoping that raw hax and firepower will trump the man's Luciferean ego tripping him up.

Should that happy eventuality come to pass, humbly ask if the King feels like charitably allowing his dutiful vassal to wish on the grail.

There are several flaws in this plan (Gil's ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, Gil being in a grumpy mood and just sticking the Grail inside Gate of Babylon because, Angra Mainyu in general) but if you wanted to be sure of winning you should have summoned Seibah.
 
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Wade Garrett said:
Really, the best (and only) way to deal with Servant Gil in a Grail War is "I'm going to sit here and be a good little prana battery while you, o King of k Kings, handle your affairs, unless of course you have some other task for which your humble vassal is well suited."

Don't try to boss him, don't try to command seal him, just shut up and take orders while hoping that raw hax and firepower will trump the man's Luciferean ego tripping him up.

Should that happy eventuality come to pass, humbly ask if the King feels like charitably allowing his humble vassal to wish on the grail.

There are several flaws in this plan (Gil's ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, Gil being in a grumpy mood and just sticking the Grail inside Gate of Babylon because, Angra Mainyu in general) but if you wanted to be sure of winning you should have summoned Seibah.
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Nah, Karna or Herakles as Archer would be better than Seibah. Of course if you give her Avalon then she stomps.
 
Wade Garrett said:
Really, the best (and only) way to deal with Servant Gil in a Grail War is "I'm going to sit here and be a good little prana battery while you, O King of Kings, handle your affairs, unless of course you have some other task for which your humble vassal is well suited."
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Honestly, I think Taiga would be the best type of Master for Gilgamesh. An idiot who lives their life to the fullest, and wholeheartedly chase their dreams.
 
Well in Gil's case, you probably could get some mileage out of a Command Spelled "Do as you wish, your majesty" to buff him on everything. Since he's going to do whatever the hell he feels like anyway :p
 
Angelicon said:
I think ''I take only a tenth of damage'' Karna and ''I can snipe you with hypersonic arrows'' Herakles would win against Saber, with or without Avalon. And that is without taking Karna's nukes and Herakles' God Hand to consideration.
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No. Avalon lolnopes everything. Not even any of the True Magics could harm her, and this included the Second Magic. If not even the Second Magic could hurt her, nothing could. Of course, Saber has a limited prana but even just holding it boosted her prana so much she throws out so much Excaliblasts like it was going out of fashion.
 
Feng Lengshun said:
No. Avalon lolnopes everything. Not even any of the True Magics could harm her, and this included the Second Magic. If not even the Second Magic could hurt her, nothing could. Of course, Saber has a limited prana but even just holding it boosted her prana so much she throws out so much Excaliblasts like it was going out of fashion.
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Right... You missed my point, kinda. While Avalon lolnopes everything, the problem is that she herself is kinda inefficient against these two. She needs her strongest ability to even put a dent on one and to seriously injure/kill the other.

Herakles is fully capable of going toe-to-toe with her in close combat due to his extraordinary stats and skills. He can also snipe her via the Nine-Lives: Shooting Hundred Heads while she is unaware. While I don't think he would do it at first encounter because of his personality, after seeing Avalon or Excalibur(she cannot even pierce God Hand without Excalibur and Herakles is not going to sit and wait for Excalibur to be unleashed in his face) he will keep away from her, waiting for a chance to take her out.

Worse case, he may have to take out the master him/herself. Herakles will not like it but considering the shit he has done in his life, simply sniping another Hero or her master won't be the worst thing he did if it is the only way. And didn't Saber used Excalibur on Herakles and the latter survived it?(Heaven's Feel) I didn't read the third route fully due to not liking it but I think I remember something like that. If he is capable of taking that to the face and survive, he is going to be immune to it the second time anyway.

Karna... Karna is easily capable of keeping up with Saber in close quarters. Due to Kavacha and Kundala, she will need to bring out the Excalibur if she wants to take Karna down. Karna will not wait there and take it to the face either. That is the main problem. However I will give it to you that Karna's personality may keep him from going to sniping like Herakles would do in that situation.

Edit: I remember Achilles. He would be the perfect counter against her. He doesn't like Kings and you need Divinity to hurt him. He also is not that bad and actually has the potential to be a very good friend to his master if his master is a ''good person''. He has a soft spot for people he recognizes as good people I think.
 
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Wade Garrett said:
Counterpoint:
Tokiomi successfully orders Gil to retreat from a battle with...everyone but Caster and Assassin with just one seal.
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Shirou and Kiritsugu can also order Saber around with a single seal, but if she puts her head into it she can resist one. Gilgamesh's sheer power allows him to do much more. And Herakles can also resist command seals, even if three are used at the same time. It takes Illya's special seals to make him obey his master. Otherwise, he can freely resist the commands.
 
Angelicon said:
Right... You missed my point, kinda. While Avalon lolnopes everything, the problem is that she herself is kinda inefficient against these two. She needs her strongest ability to even put a dent on one and to seriously injure/kill the other.

Herakles is fully capable of going toe-to-toe with her in close combat due to his extraordinary stats and skills. He can also snipe her via the Nine-Lives: Shooting Hundred Heads while she is unaware. While I don't think he would do it at first encounter because of his personality, after seeing Avalon or Excalibur(she cannot even pierce God Hand without Excalibur and Herakles is not going to sit and wait for Excalibur to be unleashed in his face) he will keep away from her, waiting for a chance to take her out.

Worse case, he may have to take out the master him/herself. Herakles will not like it but considering the shit he has done in his life, simply sniping another Hero or her master won't be the worst thing he did if it is the only way. And didn't Saber used Excalibur on Herakles and the latter survived it?(Heaven's Feel) I didn't read the third route fully due to not liking it but I think I remember something like that. If he is capable of taking that to the face and survive, he is going to be immune to it the second time anyway.

Karna... Karna is easily capable of keeping up with Saber in close quarters. Due to Kavacha and Kundala, she will need to bring out the Excalibur if she wants to take Karna down. Karna will not wait there and take it to the face either. That is the main problem. However I will give it to you that Karna's personality may keep him from going to sniping like Herakles would do in that situation.

Edit: I remember Achilles. He would be the perfect counter against her. He doesn't like Kings and you need Divinity to hurt him. He also is not that bad and actually has the potential to be a very good friend to his master if his master is a ''good person''. He has a soft spot for people he recognizes as good people I think.
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Hm, good point. God, the sword that embodies mankind's hope and wishes felt kind of weaksauce when you think about it.
 
hyperion said:
You are right. I don't know CCC, that's why I'm asking.
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The lunar alien supercomputer running Hakuno whatshername's war runs on different rules than the Holy Grail of Fuyuki, is my explanation.

Gil seemed extremely cheesed off at the order in Zero ("Tohsaka! You dare command the retreat of a king?") But he still went along with it. So I maintain that Archer class Gilgamesh being able to ignore seals is fanon.
 
Feng Lengshun said:
Hm, good point. God, the sword that embodies mankind's hope and wishes felt kind of weaksauce when you think about it.
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It's still powerful. The only weapons that can actually match it are Brahmastra Kundala, Ea, and God Force, with Balmung edging in. The fault ehre I'd say lies with Saber herself, or rather that she doesn't get summoned with all of her other cool stuff.
 
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