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Type Moon General

Bludflag said:
Skills = battle modifiers.
Noble Phantasms = weaponry / tools.

For the most part, this should help. Reading official works would help you understand better.

Stats are rough benchmarks. Since they cover a range of ten per mark, they don't tell very well who would win if both heroes had B (40–9) STR. A is even worse, because it covers a wider range (50–99, but it's not an exact science). Plusses are momentary doubling / tripling / quadrupling of rank. They're more of a visualization aid and Nasu seeing if he could put numerals to potency.

This goes out of the window when Shirō has to fight Gilgamesh (B STR).

Oh, as far as the official definition goes, one is an average human's ability.

Could you please clarify? Pretty sure you were going for "Pure Eyes, but they turned into Mystic Eyes since they turned into organs for interacting with the world," but the paragraph seems like it says they were tampered with Thaumaturgy (isn't that a Fujino thing?).
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Bludflag said:
Skills = battle modifiers.
Noble Phantasms = weaponry / tools.

For the most part, this should help. Reading official works would help you understand better.
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Somethings label Skills in FGO though are clearly weapons and do inflict damage.

fallacies said:
There exists a physical universe in Nasu -- a space wherein things such as planets and stars exist.
Humans in Nasu are unable to directly perceive or interact with it.

The "universe" that a given human interacts with is part of a local space-time domain no larger than the solar system, whose chief purpose is to render the collective beliefs of humanity as "phenomenally valid"; "the Laws of Physics" implemented within the domain are a product of human belief. Ergo, the domain itself acts as a kind of perception filter -- preventing humans from comprehending that the physics they think to be "universally valid" are really only local.

A given iteration of this domain is timeline-specific. That is, there are multiple iterations of it -- one for every timeline experienced by humanity. Collectively, a set of possible timelines that humans experience exist within something called the Tree of Time, built on top of the physical universe. This "Tree" is also referred to as the Human Universe of Awareness. The collective "Laws" that govern everything that exists or occurs within the Tree / Universe is referred to as "the Human Order" / "the Common Sense of Man." The phenomenon whereby the Human Order "corrects things" to preserve the survival of humanity is called "the Counter Force of Alaya."

The passage of time as experienced by humans has nothing to do with things outside of their context. Merlin originally exited the Tree of Time into Avalon in what was to him roughly 5XX AD; but because he isn't human, and because Avalon is outside of the Tree, he was able to physically exit Avalon and reenter the Tree as of a chronological position of 2655 BC in Grand Order.

Ergo, if an alien completely unrelated to humanity entered the Solar System, they wouldn't necessary be able to observe any of the same things that humans perceive (e.g. Mars looks completely different to them, compared to what a human might see if they visited Mars); they might not be able to witness the events of any particular human timeline that exists within the Tree of Time. It's even possible that they wouldn't be able to observe direct evidence of the human habitation of Earth.

Naturally, this means that even if the aliens arrived in the atmosphere of the planet, humans wouldn't necessarily be aware of their presence, or vice versa.

One of the functions / privileges of the Counter Force of Alaya is to flag timelines that it deems pointless for deletion / culling / pruning. Generally, "pointless" would encompass timelines that no longer branch, and timelines that have strayed too far from the course of history in the "main trunk" of the Tree of Time. Reaching a Utopia / Dystopia / Heaven / Hell / Apocalypse state without any possibility of further variation is an easy way to get flagged for deletion. Deletion is imposed upon flagged timelines roughly once a century.

The action of deleting all timelines flagged within a given century is this context referred to as a "Quantum Time-Lock." Being that the Counter Force has determined a particular "build" of history to hold the highest branching potential (therby qualifying for prioritization of preservation), the course of history along the "main trunk" of the Tree ends up being largely identical across multiple timelines across consecutive prunings, regardless of minor divergences. That is, it becomes "locked."

There exists more than one "Tree of Time." Grand Order happens in a particular Tree. Tsukihime, Prisma Illya, Prototype, and Extra are amongst those things that occur in other Trees.

As far as we can tell per current canon (and I say this because the available sources aren't entirely helpful), humans who for whatever reason fail to interface properly with Human Order are able "perceive" things that lie outside of it, and are therefore said to be "Psychics" who possess "Extra-Sensory Perception." Since "the Laws of Physics" are included amongst those things that humans "perceive" as a consequence of the Human Order, Psychics sometimes obtain the apparent ability to violate the Laws in a particular way.

For example, humans aren't supposed to be able to perceive "Death" as a visible existence. However, because carriers of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception have been disconnected from properly interfacing with the Human Order, Death becomes something physically tangible to them, even though it isn't tangible to anyone else. Ergo, the "thing" prevents "everyone else" from interacting with Death is the Common Sense of Man / the Human Order.

Magecraft doesn't work like this.

Go read CM3.
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The CM3 link I read over didn't mention ESP. Is there another more complete one?

Squirtodyle said:
That's because strength isn't the only issue. EMIYA very very rarely locks blades with Cu. His fighting style revolves around his Mind's Eye skill to analyze the battle and then intentionally leaving holes in his guard so he knows where an attack is likely to come from. This means he can block, and because he doesn't need to keep a grip on his weapon since it's faster to make a new one, he can work very well when it comes to defense. Cu is stronger than EMIYA, very much so, but EMIYA compensates by fighting cleverly.

To answer some of your other questions, stats don't really matter a whole bunch usually, and ESP is explicitly something that one can only be born with and usually only lasts one generation, while magecraft can be taught and learned and passed on.
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So your interpretation is, Cu is stronger, but not by enough Emiya can't hold his own with other skills and attributes?

linkhyrule5 said:
Magecraft is... kind of like science, in that it's something you learn, that grants you power because you understand it, and doesn't necessarily come in discrete, well defined "superpowers."

ESP, on the other hand, basically is "superpowers." As far as we've seen, anyway. Certainly the Mystic Eyes of Distortion and Crimson Red Vermillion seem to fall in that category.

Magecraft is "I know how things work so I make a (conceptual, mental) tool to change it." ESP is more... "I'm misaligned from the Common Sense of Humans, so my actions don't always obey their rules - that is, the laws of physics." ESP is therefore idiosyncratic and limited in scope to particular applications/powers.
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Azrael said:
Magecraft is a broader ability. Rather, magecraft is an entire suit of abilities, a single psychic has a single ability. They are also distinct in-setting because they operate on different rules.
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I see. That and some other explanations helps explain what the term ESP means in Nasuverse a lot. Thanks.
 
Something that occurred to me, apropos of nothing...

In Eastern literature, one major source of spiritual impurities is meant to be food; mortal food and drink, as "pleasures of the flesh," are a large part of why mortal bodies are impure (hence weak and fragile.) As such, one of the first tasks of anyone seeking spiritual transcendence of any kind is to replace all food and drink with as simple a meal as you can get, and one of the ultimate goals, inevitably, is to transcend food and drink entirely.

... This is the point where I mention that Ryougi Shiki's refrigerator stocks absolutely nothing but distilled water until Mikiya gifts her some strawberry ice cream.

*amused*
 
fallacies said:
Unrelatedly, speaking of mental pollution, the very picture of mental health:


EDIT:

The rawtext of Fujinon Material, in case anyone cares.

変異特異点・境界式にて発見された少女。

厳格な趣きの女学院の制服、慎み深い言葉づかい、果断すぎる行動力。すべてが日常的でありながら、どこか立 ち位置のズレた危うさを感じさせる。
視界に映るものであれば、硬度・構造・規模を無視してねじ曲げる"歪曲の魔眼"の保持者。
浅上という名字は古くは浅神と書き、神（異能）に通じる巫女の家系だったという。

身長／体重：157cm・51kg
出典：空の境界
地域：日本
属性：秩序・悪 性別：女性

日本人形を思わせる美人。陰のある立ち振る舞いは、しかし、滲むような清楚さがある。

Bond 1

無痛症―――五感のうち触覚が麻痺しており、
痛覚を知らずに生きてきた少女。
痛みを知らない為、他人の気持ちに共感する事ができず、人々の輪から孤立していた。
幼い頃から知性の高かった藤乃は、自分を守るために"自分は普通の人間である"とまわりに知らしめるために 無痛症である事を隠し、また、自分の心も偽ってきた。
コラボイベント『復刻版:空の境界/the Garden of Order -Revival-』の追加サーヴァント。シナリオで登場する事はない。ゲストとしてのスペシャル参戦。​

Bond 2

○歪曲の魔眼：ＥＸ
魔眼と呼称される異能の中でも最上級のもの。
異能の中の異能、希少品の中の希少品。無機・有機問わず、"物質として存在するもの"を一枚のプリント映像 として捉え、これをねじる事で対象の強度・規模を問わずに捻り、切断する。

○痛覚残留：Ａ
完治したというのに繰り返す死の痛み。人間の証明。浅神の一族は少女の異能を封じる為、その触覚を閉じ込め た。

○単独行動：Ａ＋
孤独を好む訳ではないが、なんとなくひとりでぶらつく悪癖がある。尾行とか得意。魔力切れを起こして本人は とても辛い筈なのだが、痛覚が薄いため気付いていない。​

Bond 3

『唯識・歪曲の魔眼』
ランク：ＥＸ 種別：対界宝具 レンジ：１～9999
ゆいしき・わいきょくのまがん。
夏に降る懐（なつかし）の。
千里眼（クレアボイアンス）を併発した事により、人間の視界から外れた視界―――
神の視点である俯瞰の視点から対象を"視認"し、ねじ曲げる超遠距離物理崩壊。

封鎖されていた痛みは堰を切って螺旋を描く。
―――その崩落は泣き崩れる女のように。​

Bond 4

十代後半の少女。温和で受け身な性格。
夫の影踏まずタイプの控えめな女性像。
男性の暴力的なところは苦手だが、同時にそんな子供らしい一面を愛らしいとも思っている。
なので、完全な理性の人に対しては愛情より憧れ（恋の感情）を抱くようだ。

常識を重んじ相手を立てる才女だが、根底は徹底した悲観主義者かつリアリストなので時に辛辣な意見を口にす る事も。忍耐強いが、一度たがが外れると相手を追い詰めるまで（事態を解決するまで）止まらない、暴走ダン プカーでもある。
このあたり、決断に容赦のない式と似ている。

女性的な仕草、口調、性格ではあるが、趣味は少女趣味からかけ離れたもの。ホラー映画鑑賞など、ひとりでこ っそりと楽しむ暗いものを好む。
本人は最期まで自覚する事はないが、潜在的な加虐性質。追い詰められると途端に残酷・冷酷・悪趣味になるの はこのため。​

Bond 5

藤乃のいた時代は人理焼却によって灰になった。
彼女も同様に燃え尽きたが、その特異性を世界の抑止力は見逃さなかった。
アラヤ識は人理焼却を覆す為の戦力の一つとして彼女の異能を採用し、彼女は仮初めのサーヴァントとしてカル デアに召喚される事になった。
彼女にとって今の自分は『夢』にすぎない。
式同様、燃え尽きる直前に見ている、人理焼却を覆さなければ消えるだけの一夜の幻だ。
普通の感性なら混乱し、パニックに陥るところだが、藤乃はこの異常をすんなりと受け入れた。
サーヴァントとして呼ばれた自分の立場をきっちりと理解し、自分にできる範囲でマスターの力になろうと努め るだろう。​

Yuishiki ・ The Mystic Eyes of Distortion
Rank EX, Anti-World, Range: 1 ~ 9999
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Freddy?
 
sapphirenebula said:
Somethings label Skills in FGO though are clearly weapons and do inflict damage.
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"Battle modifier" is a broad category. Sometimes, this is so because things that might qualify as NPs are artificially stamped as skills. In Japanese, Noble Phantasm is hōgu—a tool used by a hero or a god. However, a legend might take a different form upon summoning, so taking it at face value is hopeless.
sapphirenebula said:
The CM3 link I read over didn't mention ESP. Is there another more complete one?
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Kara no Kyōkai Glossary said:
ESP (Others)

Abnormal powers. Functions that normal humans do not possess. A kind of circuitry that leads to what are commonly called paranormal activities.

Different from magecraft, inborn talents are absolutely necessary for ESP. Those possessing ESP circuits can induce paranormal phenomena as naturally as breathing. The ESPers themselves take ESP for granted, and treat it as something they simply "can do." They only realise that they are abnormal after others (who can only comprehend "normal") have pointed it out.

In this story, Asagami Fujino is an ESPer, but since she was tampered with somewhat, her ability falls between ESP and magecraft.

ESP is normally an incidental occurrence, a sudden mutation limited to one generation.
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TMdict | Psychic Power
TMdict | Psychic User
 
BrokenAscendent said:
Not a counter guardian, she is on loan, not permanently.
Apparently when everything is over this will be just a dream to her.
According to reddit ;p
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What her profile actually says:
Fujinon Material said:
藤乃のいた時代は人理焼却によって灰になった。
By way of the Incineration of the Human Order, the era that Fujino existed within has become as ashes.
彼女も同様に燃え尽きたが、
She was likewise consumed by the flames,
その特異性を世界の抑止力は見逃さなかった。
but the Counter Force of the World could not overlook her peculiarity.
アラヤ識は人理焼却を覆す為の戦力の一つとして彼女の異能を採用し、
To the end of overturning the Incineration, Alaya-Shiki engaged her services as an asset for combat,
彼女は仮初めのサーヴァントとしてカルデアに召喚される事になった。
permitting that she be summoned by Chaldea as a temporary Servant.
彼女にとって今の自分は『夢』にすぎない。
To her, her existence as of present is little more than a 『dream』.
式同様、燃え尽きる直前に見ている、
As in the case of Shiki, she was conscious unto the moment just prior to consumption;
人理焼却を覆さなければ消えるだけの一夜の幻だ。
and shall in the condition that the Incineration isn't overturned become only as an illusion of a single night.
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Whether or not her existence as of the Incineration would qualify as a Counter Guardian isn't really given. If you define a Counter Guardian merely as "a human soul of a deceased individual not regaled as a Heroic Spirit, engaged by the World to service the purposes of the Counter Force," then Fujino qualifies -- for a certain value of 'deceased.'

And the overturning of the Incineration isn't a certain thing. This is why it's "in the condition of not overturning." If the overturning doesn't eventually come about, then "her existence as of present" will instead become as a dream from which she never wakes.

一夜の幻 gives beyond the literal meaning of "an illusion of a single night" the sense of being an illusion that is merely transient; and it's "her existence as of present" that becomes the illusion, rather than "her experiences as a Servant."
sapphirenebula said:
Somethings label Skills in FGO though are clearly weapons and do inflict damage.
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Certain things are called Skills because Word of God.
Why are they Skills? Because the author said so.
I'm not sure that there's anything deeper there for you to understand.
sapphirenebula said:
ESP and magecraft both seem to be like 'activate ability', 'get result', but is magecraft more flexible or something? Less narrowly defined or categorized or limited?
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fallacies said:
Go read CM3.
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sapphirenebula said:
The CM3 link I read over didn't mention ESP. Is there another more complete one?
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I said this after spending a lengthy amount of time explaining Psychic abilities. If you read it, this should've answered part of your question. The expectation was that you would go and read CM3 to understand how magecraft works by comparison.

More to the point, getting questions answered in a thread isn't a replacement for directly engaging the source material.
 
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fallacies said:
Whether or not her existence as of the Incineration would qualify as a Counter Guardian isn't really given. If you define a Counter Guardian merely as "a human soul of a deceased individual not regaled as a Heroic Spirit, engaged by the World to service the purposes of the Counter Force," then Fujino qualifies -- for a certain value of 'deceased.'

And the overturning of the Incineration isn't a certain thing. This is why it's "in the condition of overturning." If the overturning doesn't eventually come about, then "her existence as of present" will instead become as a dream from which she never wakes.

Also, 一夜の幻 gives beyond the literal meaning of "an illusion of a single night" the sense of being an illusion that is merely transient; and it's "her existence as of present" that becomes the illusion, rather than anything she experiences as a Servant.
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Ohhh direct translations are love thank you.

But I think my general idea was correct.
 
BrokenAscendent said:
Ohhh direct translations are love thank you.
But I think my general idea was correct.
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She's not confirmed not to be a Counter Guardian.
Her status as a Servant could be "permanent," presumably so long as she's maintained as an existence by Chaldea. It's just that if not the overturning of the Incineration, she becomes as a "transient illusion."
The act of waking will not make her experiences as a Servant into a dream, because her existence as a Servant is already as a dream. Certainly, it would probably "seem like a dream" whenever it is that she happens wakes up from the Incineration, but that's not what is directly meant in the text.
 
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fallacies said:
She's not confirmed not to be a Counter Guardian.
Her status as a Servant could be "permanent," so long as she's maintained as an existence by Chaldea. It's just that subsequent to the overturning of the Incineration, she becomes as a "transient illusion."
The act of waking will not make experiences as a Servant into a dream, because her existence as a Servant is already as a "dream." Certainly, it would "seem like a dream" when she wakes up from the Incineration, but that's not what is meant in the text.
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Japanese is confusing...

But My idea was she isn't exactly a counter guardian and this is sort of a 'real, yet not real' situation.
 
Warning: Can we not
  • Staff Post
    • can we not
    GaRbS said:
    I see nothing wrong with any of this :drevil:
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    See, I've got a problem here. TYPE-Moon related material keeps showing up in the report queue, and it is nearly always because someone is being incredibly creepy towards children or beings that look like children.

    Let me make things very clear. Do not sexualise children, or beings that resemble children. There is no wiggle room here, just do not do it. Implying that you're heavily in favour of a character that looks like a child having porn made of her falls under this, and I'll be giving you a Staff Notice to ensure that you remember this. Next time, it's points.
     
  • Staff Post
    • So, having watched Future Gospel earlier today, a thought occurred: isn't Musashi's Empyrean Eye basically Evaluative future-sight? What's the difference?
     
    LostDeviljho said:
    So, having watched Future Gospel earlier today, a thought occurred: isn't Musashi's Empyrean Eye basically Evaluative future-sight? What's the difference?
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    I'd say it's effectively the same end result - there's only one future - but the way it works is different.

    Bomber man sees the future with one eye and the results required to make the future occur in the other. Musashi condenses the various futures into the one she wants.

    I think that's how it works, anyways.
     
    Last Encore - World / Word 04:
    西暦3020年・AD 3020

    本作品における現在の年。
    The year wherein the present work is set.
    SE.RA.PH崩壊から約1,000年。
    Roughly 1000 years since the collapse of Se.Ra.Ph.
    地上の人口は10万をきり、じき滅亡域に到達する。
    The terrestrial population is no more than 100,000, and has entered unto the domain of extinction.
    文明圏を維持することが人の証であると仮定すると、
    If, hypothetically, the matter of the maintenance of civilization corresponds to existence of a testament to Man,
    SE.RA.PHにいるマスターが最後の人類。
    then the Masters present within Se.Ra.Ph were the last of the Humans.
    そしてSE.RA.PHが崩壊すると人類は宇宙から消えることになる。
    With the collapse of Se.Ra.Ph, Man will have departed from the Universe.​
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