Our doctrine requires us to project power balanced with exploratory capability...two missions at once...more than one mission...dare I say...multi-mission? Up-gunning and up-armoring the Lancer with p-beams and yanking out all the FLF capacity and torps damages its capability to meet the mission.
No? We've got separate ships to do meet these requirements. This is in accordance to our doctrine separating the peaceful exploration from maintaining warfare capabilities. You could argue that landings and rescue operations contribute to power projection, but the primary function moves away from exploration after doctrinal changes.
If we wanted an equivalent craft for exploration purposes we'd build something 3K ranged 4+2 or 6+2 and send it out to operate alone in deep space.
No? We've got separate ships to do meet these requirements. This is in accordance to our doctrine separating the peaceful exploration from maintaining warfare capabilities. You could argue that landings and rescue operations contribute to power projection, but the primary function moves away from exploration after doctrinal changes.
If we wanted an equivalent craft for exploration purposes we'd build something 3K ranged 4+2 or 6+2 and send it out to operate alone in deep space.
Peace ends when the first shot's fired-we need something that can back up a scout fleet and until I or someone else can push a Bodkin or another escort into production, the Lancer is our best bet. Beyond that, it's also just plain sensible, after the Heimdall Disaster, to send out something self-sufficient and well armed. Dozens of countries around our world IRL are "at peace", but their navies don't strip the guns off their cruisers and their air forces don't rub the stealth coating off their planes. Exploring peacefully doesn't mean exploring unarmed.
I'd be interested in experimenting with sub-1k ton attack craft, honestly. Depends on what the cost differential ends up being between an IC Block whatever and something like that. See what gets bang-for-buck. It really depends on how cheap we can make something that can fight effectively. Right now a 500 ton system defense boat is about half the cost of an IC but lacks jump capability. I'd have to look at what adding a J-Drive and jump fuel would do to it and it's armament capability.
I think it's worth remembering that a particle bay is 20MCr. while a large particle bay is 40MCr.
Compare to 12MCr. for a missile bay and 18MCr. for a torpedo bay.
P-beam barbettes are also the most expensive barbette.
This isn't bad! Particle beams are good guns but they're also the most expensive per gun.
We've upgraded the Cruisers to be more long-ranged, comfortable, and capable-which is good! It's an efficient way to project power, well within our mission. But why would we want our mainline combat craft being seconded to scout and convoy escort when we need them to do, for example, the kind of drag-out fighting we dodged in S'taxu and may see on and around Hermosa if our new friends the Novans have the right of things. A smaller, longer-ranged, independent escort craft for those operations is the best choice.
Based on 4Wheel's notes there, investing in torps and missiles might be worthwhile, especially if our budget limitations start kicking in. In terms of barbettes, the torp barbettes are almost twice as cheap as the P-beams for equivalent damage if the torps get through.
Disadvantage is the tonnage is more because you need ordinance magazines, but it's definitely handy to reach out and touch someone with.
I'd be kinda interested in tooling around with beam lasers as a medium range weapon considering for sliiightly more money you get equivalent damage to a turret-mounted p-beam at the cost of shorter range; might be interesting to pair with torps or missile launchers.
But why would we want our mainline combat craft being seconded to scout and convoy escort when we need them to do, for example, the kind of drag-out fighting we dodged in S'taxu and may see on and around Hermosa if our new friends the Novans have the right of things. A smaller, longer-ranged, independent escort craft for those operations is the best choice.
If we want an escort it needs to be effective. Building it on the discount with smaller size and worse weapons does a disservice to our scouts. We saw the typical system defense boat being 500 tonnes. We need to be able to at least defeat that.
Hmmm... Escort Carrier might actually be a reasonable use for an otherwise too-small carrier. I still wouldn't build it, because we haven't yet been put in situation that would necessite change from conventional weapon platforms.
If we want an escort it needs to be effective. Building it on the discount with smaller size and worse weapons does a disservice to our scouts. We saw the typical system defense boat being 500 tonnes. We need to be able to at least defeat that.
I mean, if we have to draw naval parallels most escorts for wetwater navies are usually smaller ships - like the destroyers on convoy duty, etc. Their purpose isn't necessarily to fight a battle and win (although it should be capable of fighting and winning), it's to have enough firepower to dissuade people from attacking and run interference. If we want to throw an IC on every scouting mission, yeah, we can do that... but also since they're out there on their own, if someone really wants to fuck with 'em with a lot of local firepower, a lone cruiser won't win that fight either.
Hmmm... Escort Carrier might actually be a reasonable use for an otherwise too-small carrier. I still wouldn't build it, because we haven't yet been put in situation that would necessite change from conventional weapon platforma.
"Because we want to" seems like sufficient justification; after all we're facing an entirely new paradigm of warfare! We've never fought a space war before! Everything is new!
If we want an escort it needs to be effective. Building it on the discount with smaller size and worse weapons does a disservice to our scouts. We saw the typical system defense boat being 500 tonnes. We need to be able to at least defeat that.
The Bodkin-class, as currently proposed, rates 800-850 tons of missiles and P-beams with the best thrusters and ammo stocks we can muster, outweighing your proposed threat by 300 tons, in line with the 700 tons of the Interstellar Scout. I'd say that's more than sufficient for the job. Just because it doesn't fit your view, anyone else's proposals for this quest are not "worse."
I mean, if we have to draw naval parallels most escorts for wetwater navies are usually smaller ships - like the destroyers on convoy duty, etc. Their purpose isn't necessarily to fight a battle and win (although it should be capable of fighting and winning), it's to have enough firepower to dissuade people from attacking and run interference. If we want to throw an IC on every scouting mission, yeah, we can do that... but also since they're out there on their own, if someone really wants to fuck with 'em with a lot of local firepower, a lone cruiser won't win that fight either.
If we're going to draw naval parallels we also have to remember the evolution of scale, destroyers started out as less than a thousand tons in the 1880's to well into the range of light cruiser displacement by the end of the 1940's. The more advanced things we want them to do the more tonnage we're going to have to a lot them, not even just to expand their mission profile but to give them more equipment as we invent it. It's inevitable we're going to do so.
These are not the only expectations the Citizens Council has of the Service, just the most high level ones, nor the only expectations being levelled from behind closed doors. For example, within the next five years it is expected that the Home Space Warfare Service will:
- Develop a marine landing capability with the assistance and coordination of the City Militia and their Landing Infantry units.
- Further develop mineral exploitation platforms outside of Home and provisions security for these platforms.
- Maintain the security of the fleet and its technologies from internal and external enemies, wherever they might be found.
We didn't really get any indication from the most recent post as to what the Council or the City Militia thought of our query about the suitability of converting a MMV to a marine landing ship. Perhaps we need to actually propose a design before they will comment on it.
I think it's worth remembering that a particle bay is 20MCr. while a large particle bay is 40MCr.
Compare to 12MCr. for a missile bay and 18MCr. for a torpedo bay.
With this being the case, I think we should perhaps make use of this to reduce costs by specialising our marine landing ship's weapons. I envisage a ship with armament initially similar to the Squadron Support Ship, though with several additions. I have made use of the Ordinance threadmark for reference. I have also taken this Traveller article as a guide on what capabilities our ship may need.
The below design is envisaged as being tailored as an assault carrier to form and secure the initial 'orbital head' and planetary assault prior to this being consolidated by subsequent troop transports. The mass drivers and missile or/and torpedo bays are predominantly for ortillery to support landings by providing fire support to the troops.
*Insert Heroic Name Here* - class Planetary Assault Carrier - Approx 4000 tons.
Fitted with:
Comprehensive PD network
Limited Particle Barbettes
Mass Driver Bays
Missile / Torpedo Bays
Rapid Launch/Retrieval Hangar
Drop Pod Launcher*
2 Jump + 2 Drop tanks (To maintain pace with rest of fleet).
Complement:
Berthing and facilities for an expeditionary battalion of City Militia / Landing Infantry
Drop Infantry Troop*
Squadron of streamlined fighters
Squadron of streamlined fighter bombers / gunships
Multiple squadrons of streamlined landing craft to land embarked troops and equipment / vehicles
* Regarding drop infantry, I've seen these mentioned on various Traveller websites and they seem like they would be ideal for our purposes to rapidly secure an initial landing site, but I'm not sure whether they are a capability / tech we have at our current TL.
I like the thought but also, again, depends on if they want a small boat or something for like... actual planetary landings that aren't punitive expeditions or a smash and grab or just blasting into a single dome.
I guess we could just make a drop ship from btech lol.
[X] Plan Minor Improvement
-[X] Yes, this is good. Approved.
--[X] The third DSS, HSWS Tishtrya, is not a part of the flotilla. It's tasked with jumping to Heimdall and conducting long-range observations on hexes adjacent to Hermosa. Due to the risk of interception, one Interstellar Cruiser is assigned as an escort.
-[X] No, it should be modified in the following ways:
--[X] Change the designation to MMC, Multi-Mission Cruiser.
--[X] Add a small infirmary and reduce cargo space.
[X] OPLAN: Sharpening the Lance
-[X] Yes, this is good. Approved.
-[X] No, it should be modified in the following ways: increase torpedo ammo capacity and re-add the dedicated dropship abandoned in the original design alongside the regular shuttle, along with a further 15 ground troops. In order to affect these changes, reduce armor and number of particle beams the MMV is equipped with, but maintain speed, which will make up for the difference in durability by allowing better evasive maneuvering.
What does the senior membership make of the plan? Yes, this is good. Approved. Does this meet the needs of the HSWS? No, it should be modified in the following ways
A Return To Form
The MMV, now on it's 5th design iteration, is to be returned to what was originally planned for it. Re-adding the second shuttle - this one a specialist FLIF boarding craft - and expanding the marines aboard to a full strength platoon of forty-five ensures that the MMV will be able to conduct customs, boarding and assault operations with the full support of an infantry contingent. Armour is reduced very slightly, and two of the particle cannons are exchanged for another pair of torpedo tubes, which allows for the significant expansion of the torpedo magazine as well as the addition of common areas to improve crew comfort during long journeys. After all, the MMV is fully expected to be capable of operating for its full planned 8 weeks without support, and longer with the addition of a flotilla supply ship to any formation.
This final version of the MMV will run some billion credits and will be laid down in the eleventh month of this year. Meanwhile, another team looks into the potential for a specialist marine landing variant which would carry significantly more forces. As it is, the FLIF complement aboard the ship requires:
- Three staterooms for the commanding officer and senior non-coms - 12 tons.
- Barracks space for forty junior non-coms and enlisted soldiers - 80 tons.
- A drop-shuttle in a standard hangar for rapid deployment - 117 tons.
This absolute minimum requirement of 209 tons means we can relatively easily assess what it would take to land a company (836 tons) or a battalion (~4,180 tons). It is plausible that a stripped down version of the MMV, reducing armour, torpedo load and endurance significantly, would be able to carry and land a full FLIF coy in combat conditions without significant enough modifications to be considered an entirely separate class. Notably this only uses the 'standard' FLIF boarding and landing shuttle, without any new construction being required.
First Operations
On 07y02m00w the 1st Scout Flotilla departs without fanfare or celebration but with much hope and pride in their hearts. Five ships, each with their own missions, depart home for Xyri in formation, four of the ships bulged outwards by fat drop-tanks and the FSS dwarfing the others significantly despite this. Arriving in Xyri a week later, all five spend a week refilling their tanks and checking in on the local embassy (including attending a dinner hosted by the leader of the senior polity on the planet) before moving on to their missions proper.
07y02m02w - Four ships arrive in sector 02,00 and tank from the FSS. HSWS Uenuku begins jump 'South' to sector 02,01 - Drop tank is lost. HSWS Janus and Culsans proceed to sector 03,01 - Drop tanks are recovered by HSWS Lakapati.
07y02m03w - HSWS Uenuku arrives in sector 02,01 and begins month long scan of dark space. HSWS Janus and Culsans arrive in sector 03,01 and begin local scans. Significant inaccuracy in jump reported, both ships scattered around inner system.
03,01
Survey Index: 8 System Code: -000000-0 Star(s): Brown Dwarf Orbitals: 0301-1 (Rocky planet), 0301-2 (Rocky planet), 0301-1 (Planetoid belt) Comments: Potential for mining in the planetoid, but lack of a local gas giant would mean cracking water or shipping fuel in. Value uncertain.
07y03m00w - HSWS Janus and Culsans depart sector 03,01. HSWS Lakapati departs sector 02,00. HSWS Aditi departs Xyri.
07y03m01w - HSWS Janus and Culsans arrive in sector 03,00. Significant inaccuracy in jump reported, both ships scattered around inner system. HSWS Lakapati arrives in sector 02,-01. HSWS Aditi arrives in 02,-01, tanks from HSWS Lakapati before heading 'North' to conduct its survey of dark space - Drop tank is recovered by HSWS Lakapati.
03,00
Survey Index: 8 System Code: -323???-? Star(s): Type K (Orange Star) with distant binary companion Orbitals: 0300-1 (Rocky planet), 0300-2 (Small Gas Giant) Comments: Significant evidence of fuelling activities in 03,00's gas giant. Questions raised about signs of mining on surface of 'main' world. Repeater beacon left in system, signalling peaceful intentions.
07y03m02w - HSWS Janus and Culsans depart sector 03,00.
07y03m03w - HSWS Janus and Culsans arrive in sector 03,-01. Accurate jump reported, recommendation to investigate inaccuracy caused by drop tanks. HSWS Uenuku departs sector 02,01, heading for Xyri.
03,-01
Survey Index: 6
System Code: ??????-? Star(s): Type F (Yellow-White Star) with distant binary companion Orbitals: 03-01-1 (Rocky planet), 03-01-2 (Rocky planet), 03-01-3 (Small Gas Giant), 03-01-4 (Rocky planet), 03-01-5 (Large Gas Giant), 03-01-6 (Rocky planet), 03-01-7 (Rocky planet), 03-01-8 (Small Gas Giant), Comments: Both scout ships have been pinged with requests to submit to boarding. Active and potentially hostile vessels present in system. HSWS Janus was lased with what may be a targeting beam. Both ships took emergency evasive manoeuvres, dumped peace probes and jumped away before any further contact could be made. Survey incomplete.
07y04m00w - HSWS Janus and Culsans arrive in sector 02,-01, a week ahead of schedule. With a further five weeks until HSWS Aditi returns it is decided that all ships will return home a week early to notify Home of the new discovery. HSWS Aditi was not expecting an escort, nor shall she have one.
07y04m02w - 1st Scouting Flotilla (minus HSWS Aditi) return to Home and submit urgent reports of a close by and potentially hostile force.
You will now plan a response from the Home Space Warfare Service:
We should (select all appropriate):
[ ] Dispatch forces to 02,-01 urgently, to escort HSWS Aditi home. What forces?
[ ] Dispatch forces to Xyri to safeguard against a potential incursion. Coordinate with Xyri space forces in planning a defence. What forces?
[ ] Dispatch forces to 03,-01 with the intent of opening diplomatic relations. What forces?
[ ] Dispatch forces to 03,-01 with the intent of demonstrating capabilities. What forces?
[ ] Something else. Write in. Note that this can be as broad or as shallow a plan as you think appropriate. I promise I won't 'get you' because you didn't include a response for every potential outcome. Your captains are smart and can be (relatively) trusted.
Ehhh... that ship was scanning from an empty hex, it's unlikely that it encountered someone in deep space. It's in danger if there's an immediate incursion into Xyri, but that is also not all that probable, because there's no way to track jump destinations.
IMO, we ought to revisit 03,-01 or 03,00. It's a similar situation to what happened in S'taxu. It's imporant for us to know who claims this system. These guys were quite jumpy, so it might be those are pirates.
This absolute minimum requirement of 209 tons means we can relatively easily assess what it would take to land a company (836 tons) or a battalion (~4,180 tons). It is plausible that a stripped down version of the MMV, reducing armour, torpedo load and endurance significantly, would be able to carry and land a full FLIF coy in combat conditions without significant enough modifications to be considered an entirely separate class. Notably this only uses the 'standard' FLIF boarding and landing shuttle, without any new construction being required.
Interesting to see these tonnage requirements extrapolated out. Seems like deploying a full battalion would require quite the large ship, probably around 6000+ tons.
I do think it would be worth laying down such a ship eventually. This is a capability that has been requested by the Council and is essential for us to be able to project force. It's all good and well being able to control the orbits and pound a planet into submission, but if you can't take and hold ground - what's the point?
Stripping out a MMV for it to be able to carry a full company seems like a valuable variant to have, but a basic troopship with standard shuttles is still going to be inadequate for anything more than police actions. I can't imagine such a ship faring well against a near-peer.
A dedicated ship with purpose-designed shuttles for landing in a contested environment and with supporting aerospace fighters / gunships would be a much more formidable capability.
