OK, I understand your point now. But, it does it compare to jest invalidating half of enemy countermeasures because there's nothing there to counter?
Perhaps... We could do some simulated combat exercises in Home to test these theories of ours? We could pit some ICs against SDDs.
Anyways, it's 2AM. To summarize, I think Lancer ought to be modified in following ways: upscale to 4K tonnes, 3+1 or 4+1 jumps, M-4 or better, more armour, one less shuttle, weapon loadout undecided for the moment.
By the same token, if they have an effective countermeasure for your one major weapon system you're now kinda in a pickle, aren't you?
I'd be alright with upscaling to 3.5k maybe, but I'd prefer to keep it lean if possible so we can keep our yard-space relatively open and have a bit of slack, even if we're building in parallel or conducting repairs.
If we need to add something, I'd want to upgrade the engines, leave armor as-is.
Would prefer to maintain some of the landing/boarding ability (doubles as SAR).
To be honest I think planning some Home War Games sounds like the best thing we can do to settle on on what we should do, we should wait for the Monitor to be completed and then use it as a test bed for practicing fighting against a larger massed ship as well as fighting multiple opponents as a small formation.
OK, if that's the case it makes sense to weight the offensive potential of a ship towards one of them. Against an unprepared opponent, half of their countermeasures don't work. Against someone who designed their warships to counter ours, it's just going back to the baseline effectivness. Since we're doing particle beams, no reason not to stick with them.
This presupposes that countermeasures trade 1-to-1 in a way that I'm...not exactly convinced is accurate. I feel like going heavy skew is just asking to run face-first into a hard counter at some point, though admittedly that's drawing more on general game design principles than my extremely fragmentary memories of Traveler in specific.
This presupposes that countermeasures trade 1-to-1 in a way that I'm...not exactly convinced is accurate. I feel like going heavy skew is just asking to run face-first into a hard counter at some point, though admittedly that's drawing more on general game design principles than my extremely fragmentary memories of Traveler in specific.
Yeah in a perfect world every missile and particle beam gets stopped, but I'm with you that it's better to assume that it only lessens the damage not eliminates it.
Yeah, have to say that saturating the battlespace with more threats than the enemy can deal with is a good idea and mixed weapons packages help do that.
I'm also in favor of keeping the tonnage at ~3-3.5k. I think 4k is too heavy.
By the same token, if they have an effective countermeasure for your one major weapon system you're now kinda in a pickle, aren't you?
I'd be alright with upscaling to 3.5k maybe, but I'd prefer to keep it lean if possible so we can keep our yard-space relatively open and have a bit of slack, even if we're building in parallel or conducting repairs.
If we need to add something, I'd want to upgrade the engines, leave armor as-is.
Would prefer to maintain some of the landing/boarding ability (doubles as SAR).
I can personally attest that the point of the Lancer's expeditionary complement is primarily SAR and defense, especially the former-think of it as a "oh fuck, we broke a cultural taboo on Planet Skuark and need to leave NOW" force.
Eh.... I just can't approve of sending a massive flotilla everywhere. if something like that jumped into Home we'd have no choice but to regard it as an invasion fleet, wouldn't we?
I can personally attest that the point of the Lancer's expeditionary complement is primarily SAR and defense, especially the former-think of it as a "oh fuck, we broke a cultural taboo on Planet Skuark and need to leave NOW" force.
It wouldn't work in the described situation. If we wanted it to be able to do rescue or do evacuations we'd need to put some staterooms to in there to hold the guys we're rescuing.
I'd be alright with upscaling to 3.5k maybe, but I'd prefer to keep it lean if possible so we can keep our yard-space relatively open and have a bit of slack, even if we're building in parallel or conducting repairs.
OK, as a compromise let's say I'd approve the Lancer being upscaled to 3,5K, plus an even split of weapon systems. I'd do that as long as it gets an improved M-4 engine, 3+1 jump capabilities and has just one shuttle instead of two. As for armor, if there's leftover space it should be increased, if there's not I'll accept 4 even though I think it's too thin.
.... I just can't approve of sending a massive flotilla everywhere. if something like that jumped into Home we'd have no choice but to regard it as an invasion fleet, wouldn't we?
OK, as a compromise let's say I'd approve the Lancer being upscaled to 3,5K, plus an even split of weapon systems. I'd do that as long as it gets an improved M-4 engine, 3+1 jump capabilities and has just one shuttle instead of two. As for armor, if there's leftover space it should be increased, if there's not I'll accept 4 even though I think it's too thin.
Adhoc vote count started by 4WheelSword on Aug 2, 2024 at 5:50 AM, finished with 117 posts and 9 votes.
[X] Plan South
-[X] HSWS Aditi, HSWS Tishtrya, HSWS Janus, HSLS Lakapati and 4 Interstellar Cruisers are assigned to the operation. -01+01 is designated as the staging area.
-[X] S'Taxu governments are informed of the purpose of the operation, we don't want them scared. The full taskforce resupplies at S'Taxu and jumps into -01+01. At -01+01 all ships resupply from HSLS Lakapati. Operation proper beings, orders as follow:
-[X] HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtrya jump in tandem to -02+02 and continues along the green route, charting the systems and observing into the distance. As usual, one of the surveyors is meant to keep its distance, so that assistance from the staging area can be called-in. Be cautious, remember the earlier forays into S'taxu and Xyri. If peaceful contact is made, arrange for proper diplomatic meeting later.
-[X] 4 Interstellar Cruisers are on standby in -01+01. HSLS Lakapati jumps back to S'Taxu, to get fresh supplies and returns to -01+01. HSWS Janus is on standby, but after 15 days jumps into -02+02 to conduct mining surveys.
-[X] Operation is expected to end when all surveyors return to the staging area. If nothing unexpected happens, HSLS Lakapati drops the fuel and supplies on the asteroid for later use and the entire task group returns Home.
-[X] Construct: one Deep Space Surveyor and the fifth Deep Hope segment
[X] OPLAN: Prepare to Drink Vacuum
-[X] Conduct deep space surveys of the other unknowns before any penetration of potentially hostile space.
-[X] A small, long range escort of some kind.
How does the Navy's scouting proceed? Plan South What would we fill that space with? Construct: one Deep Space Surveyor and the fifth Deep Hope segment
Operation Southern View
The first major operation planned by the Home Space Warfare Service and the largest since the orbital strike against Xyphon positions, Operation Southern View will encompass a scouting operation deep into potentially hostile territory and thus will bring the forces to match. The ORBAT is as follows:
- Task Force Southern View
-- Flotilla Command ship - HSWS Pallas
--- Operational Cruiser Squadron - HSWS Apedemak, HSWS Sakumo, HSWS Sekhmet
--- First Scout Element - HSWS Aditi, HSWS Tishtrya
--- Second Scout Element - HSWS Janus
--- Logistics Support Ship - HSLS Lakapiti
These eight ships plan to conduct an operation deep into unknown space, though most of them will hopefully hang back at ready points without ever needing to be placed in dangerous situations. The operation calls for a multi-month deployment, split into several phases, as follows:
- Phase 1 - 00w>04w
-- TFSV transits from Home to S'Taxu.
-- Refuels and tops up supplies at S'Taxu-5 facilities.
-- TFSV transits from S'Taxu to -0101, labelled 'Staging Point' for this operations.
-- All ships resupply from HSLS Lakapati before initiating Phase 2.
- Phase 2 - 04w>08w
-- HSWS Lakapati transits from Staging Point to S'Taxu to resupply.
-- HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtrya tandem jump (Drop Tanks) to sector designated -0202, conducting a week long survey.
-- HSWS Lakapati returns to Staging Point with fresh supplies, recovers surviving drop tanks.
-- HSWS Janus, refuelled and resupplied, transits to -0202 to conduct mineral survey.
- Phase 3 - 06w>11w
-- HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtrya tandem jump (Drop Tanks) to sector designated -0102, conducting a week long survey.
-- HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtrya tandem jump (Internal Fuel) to sector designated 0002, conducting a week long survey.
-- HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtrya tandem jump (Internal Fuel) to Staging Point.
- Phase 4 - 11w>14w
-- Regrouped TFSV transits from Staging Point to S'Taxu.
-- Refuels and tops up supplies at S'Taxu-5 facilities.
-- TFSV transits from S'Taxu to Home, reporting for debriefing.
This four phase, three-and-a-half month operation will be the most ambitious ever conducted by the HSWS, and it will begin in just a few short weeks, on 05y05m00w. It will last (probably) until 05y08m02w, unless something interferes with the progress of the operation.
Across the course of four weeks, the task force is assembled, the Deep Space Surveyors are fitted with their drop tanks, and the group of eight ships assemble at the 100D limit of Home-3. Phase 1
- Mission Clock Set to 00m00w
- 00m00w - All ships begin jump from Home to S'Taxu. Last contact with task force for 3.5 months.
- 00m01w - All ships arrive in S'Taxu over the course of eight hours. Task force regroups and transits into S'Taxu-5, flashing IFF signals. HSLS Lakapati suffers minor hull damage after collision with fuelling tanker. Ability to continue mission unaffected.
- 00m02w - Task Force begins jump from S'Taxu to Staging point.
- 00m03w - All ships arrive at Staging Point over the course of six hours. Refuelling operations begin, emptying a third of the Lakapati's tanks. After checks and several test operations, the Task Force begins Phase 2.
Phase 2
- 01m00w - HSLS Lakapati begins jump to S'Taxu to resupply. HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtaya being jump to sector designated -0202. HSWS Aditi is targeting the outer system, while HSWS Tishtaya is attempting to jump to the 100D limit of the main stars polar north. Both drop tanks are destroyed by the jump.
- 01m01w - HSLS Lakapati arrives in S'Taxu and transits to S'Taxu-5 for resupply. Both HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtaya are off course upon arrival in -0202, scattered seemingly at random around the inner system, although both arrive within minutes of each other. Their captains, thoroughly confused, nonetheless begin their task of surveying the system. A broad system-wide survey takes just four days with both ships combined. -0202
Survey Index: 10 System Code: -000000-0 Star(s): K2V-K0V Orange Binary with distant M4V companion. Orbitals: -0202-1 (Small Gas Giant), -0202-2 (Planetoid Belt), -0202-3 (Small Gas Giant) Comments: -0202 is a seemingly empty system with little to benefit it but the presence of gas giants for fuelling operations.
- 01m02w - HSLS Lakapati, unable to recover drop tanks, nonetheless conducts several UNREP evolutions, including resupplying the Janus. The HSWS Janus begins a jump into -0202 to conduct a mineral survey. HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtaya begin jump to sector designated -0102, utilising their remaining drop tanks.
- 01m03w - HSWS Janus arrives in -0202 to conduct mineral survey, receiving telemetry from beacon left behind by HSWS Aditi. Survey is expected to take three weeks. HSWS Janus also encounters an intact drop tank alongside a ruined one. HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtaya arrive in -0102, again both scattered. A broad system-wide survey takes six days with both ships combined. -0102
Survey Index: 8 System Code: ?9DA???-? Star(s): G7V with distant K3V companion - 100D limit: 129.1Gm - Habitable Zone: 0.82AU-1.18AU/122.7-176.5Gm Orbitals: -0102-1 (Rocky Planet), -0102-2 (Rocky Planet), -0102-3 (Rocky Planet), -0102-4 (Planetoid Belt), -0102-5 (Planetoid Belt), -0102-6 (Planetoid Belt), -0102-7 (Temperate Oceanic Mainworld), -0102-8 (Transient Body), -0102-9 (Planetoid Belt), -0102-A (Rocky Planet), -0102-B (Planetoid Belt), -0102-C (Rocky Planet), -0102-D (Rocky Planet) Comments: No contact could be made with surface population, despite evidence of such. There is limited evidence of orbital infrastructure and no evidence of a space-going industry. A repeater beacon has been left in the system just in case.
- 02m00w - HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtaya begin jump to sector designated 0002 solely using internal fuel.
- 02m01w - HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtaya arrive in sector 0002 on time and on target, emerging into real space with an eight hour separation. Seven day system survey conducted by both ships.
Nova Refugio
Survey Index: 8 System Code: D227222-8 Star(s): M3V Red - 100D limit: 50.3Gm - Habitable Zone: 0.12AU-0.17AU/17.9-25.4Gm Orbitals: 0002-1 (Planetoid Belt), 0002-2 (Mainworld), 0002-3 (Planetoid Belt), 0002-4 (Rocky Planet), 0002-5 (Highly Unusual Composition), 0002-6 (Rocky Planet), 0002-7 (Rocky Planet), 0002-8 (Planetoid Belt), 0002-9 (Rocky Planet), 0002-A (Rocky Planet) Comments: Contact made with small (below replacement) population living on wet inner world. While initial dialogue is anxious to the point of hostile, reassurances that we are not an unidentified enemy are successful. Peaceful first introductions made, including a rendezvous in orbit between HSWS Tishtrya and 'Away Sloop One'. Quarantine and first contact policies maintained. Sector 0002 logged as Nova Refugio according to local names.
- 02m02w - HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtaya begin jump to Staging Point, expending the last of their jump fuel.
- 02m03w - HSWS Janus departs -0202 after three week mineral survey. HSWS Aditi and HSWS Tishtaya arrive at Staging Point, begin fuelling from HSLS Lakapati.
- 03m00w - HSWS Janus arrives at Staging Point, tanks from HSWS Lakapati and begins preparation to jump from Staging Point with the rest of Task Force Southern View. TFSV begins jump to S'Taxu as a combined group.
- 03m01w - TFSV arrives in S'Taxu, begins transit to fuelling stations.
- 03m02w - TSFV prepares for and begins jump to Home.
- 03m03w - Task Force Southern View returns to Home, disperses and begins preparation for debriefing.
The date is 05y08m03w
In the wake of these new discoveries, the Citizens Council would like a full survey of -0102 and a diplomatic return to Nova Refugio. What would the Home Space Warfare Service like in an ideal world? Answer the following questions as a plan vote: What would the Navy like from -0202?
[ ] To aim to establish a fuelling operation for outgoing Naval missions.
[ ] To aim to establish a fleet base to support civillian mining operations.
[ ] To aim to support a civilian outpost in the sector.
[ ] Other - write in. What would the Navy like from -0102?
[ ] To conduct long duration studies of the populated planet - to work out what is going on there.
[ ] To conduct mineral surveys of the system to assess viability of commercial development.
[ ] To survey and assess the anomalous body in the system.
[ ] Other - write in. What would the Navy like from Nova Refugio?
[ ] To gain refuelling rights in the system.
[ ] To establish a fleet base alongside the present population.
[ ] To survey and assess the anomalous body in the system.
[ ] Other - write in.
[ ] To aim to establish a fleet base to support civillian mining operations.
[ ] To conduct mineral surveys of the system to assess viability of commercial development.
[ ] To establish a fleet base alongside the present population.
All three systems had something interesting in them, but I think unnamed inhabited planet might be most important. Especially if its humans that live there.
[ ] To aim to establish a fleet base to support civillian mining operations - which should include the fuel production for Naval missions.
[ ] To conduct long duration studies of the populated planet - to work out what is going on there.
[ ] To conduct more diplomacy with the aim of learning who is the unidentified enemy is, and what are their capabilities. Survey and assess the anomalous body in the system, if it is not explicitly connected to said enemy.
Huh, so two inhabited planets, but one isn't space age and the other has like.... less than a thousand people. Our big bottleneck is going to be population for basically the next century if this keeps up.
I think missiles might be better than torpedoes. Certainly they're much easier to mass enough to punch through any practical defence.
I think the "standoff" stuff is 70% a red herring in open space but there is a big angle that hasn't been mentioned yet: when fighting among orbitals or planetoids, you can fling missiles along all kinds of trajectories and attack people who can't see the launching ship yet, or get at them from unexpected angles or pincerings.
Beams need a direct line of sight and can be dodged if you can get below the horizon. Though that does presume any people on the surface won't jam a torpedo into you if you fly too low.
There's a lesson here: we didn't say for the scout to follow behind the surveyors.
It also looks like using droptanks fucks jump accuracy even more than usual.
Might need some kind of planetary/system survey ship to go with the DSS. Something that can give them a thorough looksee. The interstellar surveyor might be becoming obsolete and need a refit; it can do mining surveys but if we're going to keep using DSSes for initial gatecrashing what's the point of it?
-0201 isn't very interesting but we didn't want it to be. -0102 looks like asteroid miner heaven, possibly with a dead or regressed colony. Nova Refugio seems.. sad, but promising. Are they just paranoid or do they have good reason to worry about attack?
A base there would be absolutely fantastic. 2 jumps from Home, nice easy logistics. But they probably won't want a foreign naval base hanging overhead. Unless they're in danger, in which case it might be exactly what they want.
The options are a lot of "all of the above".
What would the Navy like from -0202?
[ ] To aim to establish a fleet base to support civillian mining operations.
[ ] To aim to support a civilian outpost in the sector.
Specifically: a base that can fuel and supply missions in its direction, and civilian infrastructure to make it less dependent on supply chains and generally give the economy something to chew on in a known-empty system.
What would the Navy like from -0102?
[ ] To conduct long duration studies of the populated planet - to work out what is going on there.
We need to know. Among other things, if there are people living there then they have first claim to any resources in that system.
What would the Navy like from Nova Refugio?
[ ] To establish a fleet base alongside the present population.
BASE BASE BASE 2 JUMP BASE GIB GIB
If they're ok?? 😳👉👈
-0202 : Same as in Deep Hope, but low priority since Nova Refugio has existing infrastructure.
[ ] To aim to establish a fuelling operation for outgoing Naval missions.
-0102 : Here we want to establish a protectorate. This planet is not far away from being space-capable. We could be building a starport and yards there and reap the benefits of an entire second planet.
[ ] To conduct long duration studies of the populated planet - to work out what is going on there.
Nova Refugio? : This system is withon two jumps of Home and one jump away from -0102, it's an useful waypoint.
[ ] To gain refuelling rights in the system.
Anomalous bodies could be handled by Interstellar Surveyors when time permits.
For -0102 I'm against taking their resources and turning them into a client; the system rightfully belongs to them - they just haven't managed advanced space flight. That's not an invitation for us to move in on them.
[ ] To aim to establish a fleet base to support civillian mining operations.
[ ] To conduct long duration studies of the populated planet - to work out what is going on there.
I'd also like to survey the various anomalies, honestly.
-0102 : Here we want to establish a protectorate. This planet is not far away from being space-capable. We could be building a starport and yards there and reap the benefits of an entire second planet.
For -0102 and Nova Refugio I think we should survey the anomalies first to make sure there's no hidden surprises or other problems before we start building things or initiate first contact; Nova Refugio would also be worth talking to the people there to get more of their story.
The uninhabited gas giant I think we could probably set up a station to support mining (and provide a re-fuelling depot).
MongTrav core rulebook, I actually don't know which version you're using or what splats you're bringing in so I could easily be off base. I suppose at a minimum you're using High Guard but I don't think it added new weapons.
There've been so many over the years, right now there's an edition split between the modernized Mongoose Traveller and the more Classic Traveller inspired Traveller5.
