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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

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[] No

With this offer I feel the Aslan are making clear that they are not our friends.

Perhaps there's some cultural mismatch going on where they're starting with a ridiculous opening negotiation position, but they could have asked for money or something that doesn't require our effective subservience. We should be very alarmed by this, it's straight out of the imperialist textbook.
 
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edqu said:
[] No

With this offer I feel the Aslan are making clear that they are not our friends.

Perhaps there's some cultural mismatch going on where they're starting with a ridiculous opening negotiation position, but they could have asked for money or something that doesn't require our effective subservience. They're asking for an unequal treaty.
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To be fair, I feel like the Aslan have been very good trade partners with how willing they have been to make reasonable deals with us to provide tech to uplift our capabilities.

I think it's perfectly reasonable that they would want a favourable deal to give away their latest weapons technology. We would do the same.

Would be sweet to lay down a 10,000 ton Battlecruiser or Fleet Carrier hull as a new flagship, though it would probably be more reasonable to lay down x2 Patrol Carriers.
 
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Tallhart said:
I think it's perfectly reasonable that they would want a favourable deal to give away their latest weapons technology. We would do the same.
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I don't think we would do the same to someone we saw as a partner rather than a target.

Aslan troops and ships on permanently stationed on Home? State-subsidized Aslan corporations dominating our key industries until we're economically dependent? Agreeing to send out spacers and ships to get blown up defending Aslan space?

I don't think I'm fearmongering here, I'm pretty sure this story usually plays out the same way, and it doesn't end well for the subservient state.

It's not worth the risk.

(Also the Home political establishment will not be happy to hear if we agree to put our sovereignty on the line, even if it's for weapons tech.)
 
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I think it's just a cultural clash, honestly. So far, they've otherwise been pretty straight shooters with us.

I'd support CFA-D Flight III or additional logistics hubs to keep building up our forward operating base.
 
Tallhart said:
I think it's perfectly reasonable that they would want a favourable deal to give away their latest weapons technology. We would do the same.
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edqu said:
I don't think we would do the same to someone we saw as a partner rather than a target.
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Gotta agree with edqu here, this does seem a bit excessive. Especially when we have very much been ready to pay them for it, hell I would have been all for a defensive alliance, but this? No, they can take their offer and give it to someone more stupid, maybe a seagull or something.
 
I could see that from their perspective they see a rapidly rising power asking for all their weapons tech and see this as an absurd request. Kind of like if China asked the US to share all its weapons tech (obviously this metaphor breaks down after the simplest examination, but hopefully it illustrates the point).

But they're a bunch of mf'ing lions with a huge appetite for risk so instead of saying no they say "sure, winner takes all".
 
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UnbegottenProxy said:
We have Aslan citizens at Home right. Just hire some Aslan cultural advisers.
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We asked the MIC to do that, and it resulted in this.

I'm leaning towards a final counteroffer of "if we win, we get the weapons tech and a defence treaty, if you win, you get 10% of our budget for 10 years and a defence treaty",and then us walking away if they reject it. We can always do a FFBNW thing where the large cruisers mount laser or railgun bays in the turrets for now and we replace them with mass driver cannons in a refit if we need to.
 
Alright. We have 10000+ tons free. We're not going to be able to pay for it this year, but our annual budget just increased and this thing will take multiple years to build anyways.

Can we finally get started on a fleet carrier?

As for the Aslan, we seem to be at an impasse. They want land, and we can't give it to them. We want advanced tech, and they understandably won't give us it until we give them what they won't in return. A final offer of cash and a (strictly defensive) alliance would be reasonable, but I doubt Keoiri would accept it.
 
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Could we pull a Molotov-Ribbentrop and agree to split Lydian "space", defence treaty and lower tariffs if they win?
Even if we want the defence treaty, we should act like we don't to make them pay for it.
 
Yeah, let's just give this one up. At least for now. Negotiations have fallen through, and the price for a loss is high.

Doubly so when the Aslan have much more experience with carrier warfare than us.
 
Boss Tweed said:
Alright. We have 10000+ tons free. We're not going to be able to pay for it this year, but our annual budget just increased and this thing will take multiple years to build anyways.

Can we finally get started on a fleet carrier?
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I question the usefulness of a proper carrier. The M.O. of our opponents has to be to sneak within medium range, then open fire with fusion guns. Carriers are good at defending against missile/torpedo attacks, and similarly, can launch missile/torpedo salvoes at longer range than a conventional ship. However, they are not efficient torpedo platforms close-in (since conventional platforms can launch torpedoes without the overhead of carriers' handling decks or extra crew - the new carrier hits about as hard as a CFA IMO). Patrol carriers were justified in that they can carry an EWAR squadron, but a bigger ship won't improve on that (and I'd argue in the future for a smaller "aviation cruiser" that can do the same while having a gun armament).

IMO, if we're going to lay down a capital ship of a new type, we should pick something that is meant to turn the tables on how the Lydians fight. We've had the greatest success when we let the Lydians get close, are designed to withstand the initial salvoes from their fusion bays, and then we open fire with our mass driver cannons and torpedoes on the now-spotted enemy ships.

What I'd suggest doing is designing a ship fitted for but not with our new, fancy weapons. To start with, the big upgrades for us at TL 10 will be turreted LMDCs on ships of >5000 tons, turreted HMDCs on ships of >10000 tons, and point defence batteries. The LMDCs are an easy swap, I think; we can put the turrets on, but then fit them with a missile bay instead of the mass drivers. Once we find a supplier for non-prototype LMDCs, we can replace the missile bays. Yes, we're wasting 5 tons per bay, and a additional 50 tons over the entire ship (for a 5,000 ton ship), but that's really not that much when it gives us growth potential. Alternatively, we could build a 10,000 ton ship and use LMDCs for now and HMDCs later. Point defence is a bit harder, but we can do that by designing the ship with the crew and weapons we'd use if we had PD batteries, then removing them and adding virtual crew-controlled PD turrets until we hit the cap; spare hardpoints post-upgrade can be fitted with the zero tonnage missile racks carrying point defence missiles.

That said are you sure we have 10,000 tons free? I thought we had less...
 
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The Aslan conditions are optimistic, but.
If we want the previous offer we should accept it now instead.

Fighting means both sides have greater prizes to win: we get the guns for free, or they get their pie-in-the-sky maximal goals.

Double or nothing.

Do you feel lucky?

Alternately:
do you suppose Garda-Villis might sell us some MMDCs and PD bays? Please, sir, just a few crumbs of militia-grade hardware, only TL12, my civilian infrastructure is under attack by pirates.
4WheelSword said:
Just to be 100% crystal: A virtual crew member or gunner is not an AI. It has no intelligence or ability to learn. It is a program that responds to certain inputs by completing pre-programmed tasks.
Now, the schema of things it can respond to is massive - but it's as 'smart' as chat gpt is.
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chat gpt
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DOCTRINAL UPDATE: Thou shalt not make a machine in the image of a human mind.
C_Z said:
I question the usefulness of a proper carrier. The M.O. of our opponents has to be to sneak within medium range, then open fire with fusion guns. Carriers are good at defending against missile/torpedo attacks, and similarly, can launch missile/torpedo salvoes at longer range than a conventional ship. However, they are not efficient torpedo platforms close-in (since conventional platforms can launch torpedoes without the overhead of carriers' handling decks or extra crew - the new carrier hits about as hard as a CFA IMO). Patrol carriers were justified in that they can carry an EWAR squadron, but a bigger ship won't improve on that (and I'd argue in the future for a smaller "aviation cruiser" that can do the same while having a gun armament).

IMO, if we're going to lay down a capital ship of a new type, we should pick something that is meant to turn the tables on how the Lydians fight. We've had the greatest success when we let the Lydians get close, are designed to withstand the initial salvoes from their fusion bays, and then we open fire with our mass driver cannons and torpedoes on the now-spotted enemy ships.

What I'd suggest doing is designing a ship fitted for but not with our new, fancy weapons. To start with, the big upgrades for us at TL 10 will be turreted LMDCs on ships of >5000 tons, turreted HMDCs on ships of >10000 tons, and point defence batteries. The LMDCs are an easy swap, I think; we can put the turrets on, but then fit them with a missile bay instead of the mass drivers. Once we find a supplier for non-prototype LMDCs, we can replace the missile bays. Yes, we're wasting 5 tons per bay, and a additional 50 tons over the entire ship (for a 5,000 ton ship), but that's really not that much when it gives us growth potential. Alternatively, we could build a 10,000 ton ship and use LMDCs for now and HMDCs later. Point defence is a bit harder, but we can do that by designing the ship with the crew and weapons we'd use if we had PD batteries, then removing them and adding virtual crew-controlled PD turrets until we hit the cap; spare hardpoints post-upgrade can be fitted with the zero tonnage missile racks carrying point defence missiles.

That said are you sure we have 10,000 tons free? I thought we had less...
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The new census came through halfway down the update.

Don't think there's enough money for a Large Cruiser but a couple of support station modules should be doable.

Maybe some defence stuff or ramscoop ships for FSS range extension - can the original FSSes be refit to the Flight II or is it a different hull?

Might be able to pad the budget a bit by flogging off some ICs to system defence squadrons.
 
while we still have 25 pilots left, i think a "attack" tug .IE a tug that we use to transport other jump-ships into hostile systems, could or would be a good idea. though the tugs would have to be modular and MASSIVE. with this we could have more combat-ships in our fleet than we have pilots. alternatively we could also replace any defensive jump-ships with system monitors, using the tugs to move them around.
 
Right now, I'm thinking we build another defensive monitor, ask our civilian yards to build another station segment (and if they can, also start drafting up a defensive monitor replenishment vessel to free up modular conveyors from shuttling crews around), and save the rest for big ships once we get our new budget.

[X] Plan: Someone else come up with a plan too pls
-[X] An additional System Defence Monitor (572.725Mcr.)
-[X] An additional station segment in civilian yards, for connecting to external cargo containers, storing cargo, and transferring cargo between external containers, replenishment vessels, and warships.
-[X] No, and point out that the Aslan negotiators already offered a defence treaty and 10% of our budget in exchange for the tech; that should be what's on the table. If they refuse, walk away and see if one of the other polities is willing to sell us production mass driver cannons and PD batteries.
 
[X] Plan: Rebuild our Diplomatic Courier
-[X] Rebuild our Diplomatic Courier, but with updates and lessons learned
-[X] An additional station segment in civilian yards, for connecting to external cargo containers, storing cargo, and transferring cargo between external containers, replenishment vessels, and warships.
-[X] No, but ask if they'd like to duel anyways with only honour and glory as the stakes.

IIRC we use one of our other ship types as a multi-purpose vessel that hosts a small amount of diplomatic staff but for high level negotiations (e.g. our interaction with Hermosa) we should have a dedicated ship.

Here's my best attempt at an alternative plan.
 
[X] Plan Double or Nothing
-[X] An additional System Defence Monitor (572.725Mcr.)
-[X] An additional station segment in civilian yards, for connecting to external cargo containers, storing cargo, and transferring cargo between external containers, replenishment vessels, and warships.
-[X] Yes.

I am confident in the capabilities of our carrier force, nascent as it is. Our academy trained crews need to be put to the test.
 
[X] Plan Double or Nothing
[X] Plan: Rebuild our Diplomatic Courier

It isn't a peacegame, and my comments earlier about trying to have our cake and eating it too still hold.

Would have expected an RnR station module to be more important than cargo.

Are we planning any ops towards Lydian space on the next year or so?
A modular merchant module for carrying some ramscoop tenders could be good. Also the tenders. Something is going to have to carry them into position and they could do a lot to pad out fuel logistics in a mobile flotilla even if they aren't as maintainable without a hangar.

Also if we raid the prison we'll need more merchants to transport anyone we rescue.

Maybe another minelayer?
 
The vote is tied, and I have some home stuff going on. Have an extra day and feel free to iterate on or develop new plans.
 
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