Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

Josiah · Sep 4, 2024

[ ] The usage of nuclear weapons - when it is allowed and when it is not - ???
[ ] The usage of chemical weapons - when it is allowed and when it is not - ???
[ ] The usage of weapons against domed cities where is cannot be expected that civilians would be able to survive
[ ] Rules on the treatment of the sick, wounded, or shipless in space combat (tbh we probably can't do anything about sick and wounded in ship combat, except if they surrender; shipless probably could have some protections)
[ ] Rules on the treatment of prisoners of war
[ ] Rules on the treatment of civilians in war time and what constitutes a civilian
[ ] The establishment of a right to safe passage for medical personnel clearly identified
[ ] The establishment of a series of guidelines on how to treat neutral parties, especially merchants and diplomats, in times of war
[ ] The establishment of a protocol on the treatment of merchant and civilian vessels in war time, especially enemy merchants in disputed territory at the time of wars declaration. (actually scratch my previous opinion, this could be good)

Not sure about the chemical and nuclear weapons - if they are the weapons of mass destruction that endanger civilians they may be covered in a "treatment of civilians" section. And maybe nukes could be covered in "civilian sections" too?
On other hand, if they do not endanger the civilians here and now, but make planet less inhabitable later (like this "conventional plasma gun"), then maybe these would be worthy clauses

scientific thing is un-enforcable basically. Though it could be tempting to ban things that can destroy planets or star systems - but again, these probably would be covered in "civilian sections"

"Rules on the treatment of the sick and wounded in ground combat"- probably un-enforcable too, unless they are pows, but should be aleviated by safe passage of medics

Briefvoice · Sep 4, 2024

Pinniped said:
Huh? What is this about chemical weapons not needing to be banned in a high tech setting? Higher tech makes chemical/biological weapons more terrifying, not less. High-tech chemical/biological weapons could include stuff like man-eating self replicating nanomachines or a weaponized biological agent targeting specific ethnic groups. That is freaking terrifying, abd must be banned and the ban enforced with extreme prejudice.

Sorry, but I disagree. I am not in favor of a blanket ban on these weapons. If you're worried about them being used on civilians, that falls under the "don't attack civilians" rule. If something thinks it's effective to use them in combat, that's their call. A soldier eaten by nanomachines isn't any deader that someone with a hole blown through their chest.

Pinniped · Sep 4, 2024

Briefvoice said:
If something thinks it's effective to use them in combat, that's their call. A soldier eaten by nanomachines isn't any deader that someone with a hole blown through their chest.

You could make the same argument for nukes, yet we are still planning on restricting them as well, right?

Josiah said:
Not sure about the chemical weapons - if they are the weapons of mass destruction that endanger civilians they may be covered

Briefvoice said:
Sorry, but I disagree. I am not in favor of a blanket ban on these weapons. If you're worried about them being used on civilians, that falls under the "don't attack civilians

The thing I an worried about with respect to chemical/biological weapons is that both have the capability to destroy the population of an entire planet, or worse, if something goes wrong. A runaway nanomachine weapon is how you get a grey goo scenario, after all. A blanket ban on this would reduce the risk of such an end of world scenario, since most people would know that developing weapons with such potential is a bad idea and will cause a HSWS response.

Magnificate · Sep 4, 2024

Here's some early thoughts:

4WheelSword said:
[ ] The usage of nuclear weapons - when it is allowed and when it is not

OK in space combat. NOK in atmosphere of habitable planets and against inhabited civilian space stations.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] The usage of chemical weapons - when it is allowed and when it is not

Irrelevant. With vacc suits combatants tend to be insulated against this sort of weapon, so there's no real reason to use chemical weapons over conventional warfare.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] The usage of orbit to surface weapons - what is considered a valid use and what is not

Always a valid option, except against domes or cities.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] The usage of weapons against domed cities where is cannot be expected that civilians would be able to survive.

Prohibited.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] Rules on the treatment of the sick and wounded in ground combat

What about it? With the medical technology available you just put them in an icebox and evacuate. You can do ceasefires for that.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] Rules on the treatment of the sick, wounded, or shipless in space combat

No shooting at escape pods.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] Rules on the treatment of prisoners of war

Current rules are OK.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] Rules on the treatment of civilians in war time and what constitutes a civilian

Now, that is difficult. I'm partial to everything that is outside of these designated safe-zones is a combatant.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] The establishment of a right to safe passage for medical personnel clearly identified

Ehhh… Sure, but what counts as clear identification? It'd need to be some sort of IFF and it would need to involve their internal systems being open for penetration by the opposing side to verify.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] The establishment of a series of guidelines on how to treat neutral parties, especially merchants and diplomats, in times of war

Gotta safeguard the diplomatic immunity, but I'm not opposed to allowing deportation.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] The establishment of a protocol on the treatment of merchant and civilian vessels in war time, especially enemy merchants in disputed territory at the time of wars declaration.

Give a grace period to leave the system, afterwards all enemy ships are considered combatants. Except medical ships.

4WheelSword said:
[ ] The establishment of certain rules and limitations on the deployment and usage of specific kinds of weapons in war time, and their research in times of peace.

No weapons research is unenforceable.

Josiah · Sep 4, 2024

Pinniped said:
The thing I an worried about with respect to chemical/biological weapons is that both have the capability to destroy the population of an entire planet, or worse, if something goes wrong. A runaway nanomachine weapon is how you get a grey goo scenario, after all. A blanket ban on this would reduce the risk of such an end of world scenario, since most people would know that developing weapons with such potential is a bad idea and will cause a HSWS response.

Yeah, planet-killing is a big elephant in the room, I agree

Magnificate said:
No shooting at escape pods.

No abandoning them in, say, uninhabited system to die of suffocation/thirst/hunger, either - if they reasonably could be recovered they should be.

Magnificate said:
Always a valid option, except against domes or cities.

If the orbital strikes by some "convetional" weapons are used to cause tsunamies/earthquakes/volcano erruptions that would kill civilians and/or wreck the planet, these should be prohibited too

Briefvoice · Sep 4, 2024

I don't think that Traveller as a setting really deals with Grey Goo nanomachines at anything approaching our technology levels.

Magnificate · Sep 4, 2024

Josiah said:
No abandoning them in, say, uninhabited system to die of suffocation/thirst/hunger, either - if they reasonably could be recovered they should be.

Well, that put an obligation on the enemy to save your combatants. If you are pushed from a particular system, what is then expected to happen with the guys on lifeboats left there? It's not like warships have room to spare to pick them up. We've got rescue modules for merchant vessels planned, do we expect others to build them as well?

Night · Sep 4, 2024

With the caveat that those who aren't signatories to this will have their own behavior mirror-imaged back at them at the discretion of Home's leadership:

[ ] The usage of nuclear weapons - when it is allowed and when it is not

The target must be a minimum of twenty or thirty kilometers from the surface of any civilian-inhabited celestial body. Beyond that it's fair game. (You can add a zero if you want to stop airbursts, but there are useful things you could do with airbursts that won't necessarily be a ground problem.)

[ ] The usage of chemical weapons - when it is allowed and when it is not

Only useful against civilian targets rather than even moderately equipped troops, so might as well ban it. No, nanomachines aren't chemical weapons, chemical compounds are chemical weapons. (This does not necessarily cover incendiaries.)

[ ] The usage of orbit to surface weapons - what is considered a valid use and what is not

Non-nuclear return fire against surface to orbit weapons is acceptable in all circumstances. Missile and torpedo strikes are preferred for other uses, given the mess particle beams made on Cassalon, but I'm not willing to rule out particle beam strikes entirely.

[ ] The usage of weapons against domed cities where is cannot be expected that civilians would be able to survive

Domes are not to be attacked unless they are themselves somehow being used as combatants, like weapons are emplaced on the dome. Cracking the dome is a last resort to deal with that, and should proceed only after warning and a period to evacuate to shelter.

[ ] Rules on the treatment of the sick and wounded in ground combat

We should probably ask Cassalon about this, they've got a lot more experience on the subject than we do.

[ ] Rules on the treatment of the sick, wounded, or shipless in space combat

Those without ships or without functional ships are noncombatants unless they prove otherwise, and should be recovered by victorious forces if feasible.

[ ] Rules on the treatment of prisoners of war

Again: ask Cassalon.

[ ] Rules on the treatment of civilians in war time and what constitutes a civilian

Consult with Cassalon for ground issues but in a space context: unarmed ships that do not behave aggressively (making collision approaches with ships, stations, or inhabited bodies) are civilians. Civilians should respond to general traffic control orders/inspections already, so there shouldn't be too much problem with increased supervision in wartime. Those that don't respond to orders might get shot at.

[ ] The establishment of a right to safe passage for medical personnel clearly identified

With inspection, probably. Inspection can obviously be waived at discretion.

[ ] The establishment of a series of guidelines on how to treat neutral parties, especially merchants and diplomats, in times of war

Innocent passage of open space is allowed, but moving near combat forces or in orbital space has to accept restrictions and controls; again this probably isn't anything new. Civilian shipping is advised to remain clear of combat forces to prevent misunderstandings.

[ ] The establishment of a protocol on the treatment of merchant and civilian vessels in war time, especially enemy merchants in disputed territory at the time of wars declaration.

Enemy civilian craft should be interned/taken as prize if possible. Allow for evacuation and then destroy the ship if not.

[ ] The establishment of certain rules and limitations on the deployment and usage of specific kinds of weapons in war time, and their research in times of peace.

Deliberate attempts to render planets uninhabitable and weapons that risk the same, via permanent poisoning of water supplies, biosphere destruction, mass nuclear bombardment to "salt the earth", or any other current or future method, are prohibited.

Josiah · Sep 4, 2024

Briefvoice said:
I don't think that Traveller as a setting really deals with Grey Goo nanomachines at anything approaching our technology levels.

In terms of biological dangers, however, *looks at "Deepnight Revelation" meaningfully*

Magnificate said:
Well, that put an obligation on the enemy to save your combatants. If you are pushed from a particular system, what is then expected to happen with the guys on lifeboats left there? It's not like warships have room to spare to pick them up. We've got rescue modules for merchant vessels planned, do we expect others to build them as well?

Well, I believe our bigger ships should have brigs, then. ~~Sailors can always stash moonshine or weed there, when they are unused~~
Also if our ships have no ability to recover enemy lifeboats, they do not have ability to recover our own lifebots either.

Night said:
[ ] Rules on the treatment of prisoners of war

Again: ask Cassalon.

I mildly suspect that we won't like the answer, given how hostile the parties were to each other there.

Pinniped · Sep 4, 2024

Josiah said:
Yeah, planet-killing is a big elephant in the room, I agree

Yes, exactly. And chemical/biological weapons are unique in the sense that they have the capability to become planet killer weapons by accident. All it takes is a "programming error" in the nanomachines or the bioweapon, and we have a planet killer scenario on our hands. Which is why we should ban all of these, since they are not that useful for combat anyway.

Night said:
No, nanomachines aren't chemical weapons, chemical compounds are chemical weapons. (This does not necessarily cover incendiaries.)

Most things are chemical compounds, so that definition does not really track. Nanomachines and nanotechnology in general sit in that grey zone between chemistry and physics, and molecular machines are definitely a thing.

Molecular machine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Josiah · Sep 4, 2024

Pinniped said:
Most things are chemical compounds, so that definition does not really track. Nanomachines and nanotechnology in general sit in that grey zone between chemistry and physics, and molecular machines are definitely a thing.

Molecular machine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Arguing about definitions is exactly the wrong thing to do here - what we care about is the end result the weapon's usage, not how exactly to categorize it ("are synthetic weaponized prions biological, chemical or bionanothecnical?" - "who cares, if they kill civilians at mass or kill only military personnel BUT make planet uninhabitable later, they should be prohibited")

Rat King · Sep 4, 2024

Moving forward, I would like to see a broader willingess to rely on other polities in a system when they're at least nominally friendly to us (or neutral).

Pinniped · Sep 4, 2024

Josiah said:
Arguing about definitions is exactly the wrong thing to do here - what we care about is the end result the weapon's usage, not how exactly to categorize it ("are synthetic weaponized prions biological, chemical or bionanothecnical?" - "who cares, if they kill civilians at mass or kill only military personnel NUT make planet uninhabitable later, they should be prohibited"

You are not wrong here. But a ban on potential planet killers must also mean a blanket ban on all self-replicating chemical/biological/nanotech weapons, due to these weapons having the potential to be planet killers accidentally, despite not being designed for this purpose.

Josiah · Sep 4, 2024

Rat King said:
Moving forward, I would like to see a broader willingess to rely on other polities in a system when they're at least nominally friendly to us (or neutral).

In terms of technocrats I thought that "rewarding" them with spacetech for shooting down our shuttle was very wrong. However, it indeed costed us lifes of our personnel. Which is an unhappy result.

we should include more marines/SAR capabilities in our task forces in future, so we should not wait for weeks until the ship would come from Home, that's for sure. And also equip our shuttles by first aid/survival gear.

AKCHOOALLY
I want us to have an exercise - "we have a two-IC taskforce in system X; one got wrecked by a derelict space-mine, but crew escaped in life pods and in shuttle which crash-landed on a nearby uninhabitable planet. Can the other IC resque the lifepods and the shuttle? How long can crewmen survive in them? Are there any emergency supplies - food, water, air (like, spare ballons for spacesuits), medications?"

Briefvoice · Sep 4, 2024

Keep in mind we were only asked to say what topics should be addressed. We do not have to write out what the actual rules will be for each item.

[X] Restrained Rules
-[X] The usage of nuclear weapons - when it is allowed and when it is not
-[X] The usage of orbit to surface weapons - what is considered a valid use and what is not
-[X] The usage of weapons against domed cities where is cannot be expected that civilians would be able to survive
-[X] Rules on the treatment of the sick and wounded in ground combat
-[X] Rules on the treatment of the sick, wounded, or shipless in space combat
-[X] Rules on the treatment of prisoners of war
-[X] Rules on the treatment of civilians in war time and what constitutes a civilian
-[X] Other - Rule addressing "weapons that can proliferate independently" whether diseases, grey goo, AI, etc.

Night · Sep 4, 2024

Pinniped said:
Most things are chemical compounds,

Do you refer to your car as a chemical compound? Your toaster? No. It's a machine.

Theonetruelordke · Sep 4, 2024

[X] Restrained Rules

Josiah · Sep 4, 2024

[X] Plan "Around the Shitlibs, Never Go Edgy"
-[X] The usage of nuclear weapons - when it is allowed and when it is not
-[X] The usage of orbit to surface weapons - what is considered a valid use and what is not
-[X] The usage of weapons against domed cities where is cannot be expected that civilians would be able to survive
-[X] Rules on the treatment of the sick and wounded in ground combat
-[X] Rules on the treatment of the sick, wounded and shipless in space combat
-[X] Rules on the treatment of prisoners of war
-[X] Rules on the treatment of civilians in war time and what constitutes a civilian
-[X] The establishment of a right to safe passage for medical personnel clearly identified
-[X] The establishment of a series of guidelines on how to treat neutral parties, especially merchants and diplomats, in times of war
-[X] The establishment of a protocol on the treatment of merchant and civilian vessels in war time, especially enemy merchants in disputed territory at the time of wars declaration.
-[X] Write-in: The establishment of bans and limitations on the deployment and usage of weapons that can threaten planet's habitability, mass-kill populations, threaten entire space systems - chemical, biological, radiological, (bio)nanotechnological, other sorts of self-replicating weapons, deliberately causing "natural" disasters.
-[X] Write-in: Totally unrelated exercise - "we have a two-IC taskforce in system X; one got wrecked by a derelict space-mine, but crew escaped in life pods and in shuttle which crash-landed on a nearby uninhabitable planet. Can the other IC resque the lifepods and the shuttle? How long can crewmen survive in them? Are there any emergency supplies - food, water, air (like, spare ballons for spacesuits), medications?"

Lukepop · Sep 4, 2024

I just want to point out that the technocrat convoy didn't respond to our hails. Why do we think we could trust them with our personell?

It's possible, plausible even, that they would heal our personnel. But judging by the fact that they didn't respond to hails and didn't stop moving until we dropped a deactivated bomb in front of them, I'm pretty sure they would've used our people as hostages. Which is... arguably better? Arguably. If they did that I don't see a world in which we aren't drawn into the Xyri conflict in one way or another. Either on the side of the technocrats to get our people back or against them because they're probably the ones that shot down our shuttle and killed some of our people, and they're definitely the ones that took the survivors hostage. To me the real answer here is, in future, to keep ground troops ready when conducting operations like this.

Traveller76 · Sep 4, 2024

[X] Restrained Rules

Night · Sep 4, 2024

Lukepop said:
I just want to point out that the technocrat convoy didn't respond to our hails. Why do we think we could trust them with our personell?

It's possible, plausible even, that they would heal our personnel. But judging by the fact that they didn't respond to hails and didn't stop moving until we dropped a deactivated bomb in front of them, I'm pretty sure they would've used our people as hostages.

So far they're not clearly involved in the conflict yet; it's primarily between republican and dictatorship, if not exclusively. There really wasn't much point in them taking hostages that we know of. And, like, if they want security guarantees from us in return for something...that's good! That's fine! We'll probably give them!

I also sorta wonder what the Xyri spaceborne military think they can accomplish with the Aslan cruiser sitting there. Their ability to enforce a cease-fire will be short-lived without dealing with it.

Rat King · Sep 4, 2024

Night said:
So far they're not clearly involved in the conflict yet; it's primarily between republican and dictatorship, if not exclusively. There really wasn't much point in them taking hostages that we know of. And, like, if they want security guarantees from us in return for something...that's good! That's fine! We'll probably give them!

I also sorta wonder what the Xyri spaceborne military think they can accomplish with the Aslan cruiser sitting there. Their ability to enforce a cease-fire will be short-lived without dealing with it.

Well, the Aslan haven't interfered with their orbital strikes. It's possible the dictatorship could only afford ground pounders and there's not enough cash to hire the cruiser (or hiring the cruiser might run afoul of our "don't fuck around in orbit" thing, who knows). Or the Aslan don't hire the cruiser out because they prefer to use it as a mobile base?

Coyote Niff · Sep 4, 2024

[X] OPLAN: Binding Wall
-[X] The usage of nuclear weapons - when it is allowed and when it is not
-[X] The usage of chemical weapons - when it is allowed and when it is not
-[X] The usage of orbit to surface weapons - what is considered a valid use and what is not
-[X] The usage of weapons against domed cities where is cannot be expected that civilians would be able to survive
-[X] Rules on the treatment of the sick and wounded in ground combat
-[X] Rules on the treatment of the sick, wounded, or shipless in space combat
-[X] Rules on the treatment of prisoners of war
-[X] Rules on the treatment of civilians in war time and what constitutes a civilian
-[X] The establishment of a right to safe passage for medical personnel clearly identified
-[X] The establishment of a series of guidelines on how to treat neutral parties, especially merchants and diplomats, in times of war
-[X] The establishment of a protocol on the treatment of merchant and civilian vessels in war time, especially enemy merchants in disputed territory at the time of wars declaration.
-[X] The establishment of certain rules and limitations on the deployment and usage of specific kinds of weapons in war time, and their research in times of peace.
-[X] Write-in: The establishment of rules on the extraction of information, both in combat and as part of wartime bodies such as intelligence agencies, including the prohibition of torture.
-[X] Write-in: the establishment of rules on "life-collapsing" weapons capable of scouring a planet's livable capabilities, including all CBRN threats and exotic materials such as nanotechnology.
-[X] Write-in: the establishment of rules and bodies designed to investigate war crimes and crimes against humanity, as well as standards of military and humanitarian intervention to prevent said crimes, and their prosecution under international law.
-----
-[X] Write-in: a crash deployment of all available FLF drop squadrons to the known high command bases of all active belligerents, as well as hardening the war crimes sites FLF troops already occupy for investigations purposes. FLF forces must also transpose themselves between active belligerents to formulate a de-militarized zone. Simultaneously, current SWS orbital forces must order Xyrian space forces to stand down or be fired upon. FLF Ranger forces are to be detailed to a kill/capture mission against new plasma technology as well as all known WMD sites. Should Ranger complements fail in their mission, WMD sites are to be subject to conventional ortillery targeting.

To: Marshal-General Qiu Meers, Home Primary Command Council-Space Warfare Section

General Meers,

Sir, please find attached the official Multispectrum Warfare Office recommendation for exploratory research into the formal "laws of war" within our volume. Internally, we've started calling it "the 15 goals". Additionally, I, speaking for all MWO personnel, feel that the best way to put our commitment to these rules into action is by intervening directly, and with overwhelming ground force, in the current Xyrian conflict. The Xyri Combined Fleet has made their desire to intervene clear, and to avoid nuclear bloodshed like TAXBURN and the Cassalon Genocide, we must pre-empt that plan of action with all haste. Please find contained deployment authorization and strategic planning for a crash deployment of all available FLF assets via Interstellar Conveyor, MMV, and Interstellar Cruiser, as well as additional prospectives on fitting as many troopers into anything with drop capability and a jump drive.

We must act now, before the situation on the ground forces others to act for us.

Your obedient servant,

Lenore Novohal, Major, Multispectrum Warfare Office, 45th Pathfinder Squadron (Res.)

C_Z · Sep 4, 2024

[X] OPLAN: Binding Wall

Rat King · Sep 4, 2024

[X] OPLAN: Binding Wall

General Meers,

Enclosed please find preliminary reporting on the ongoing Xyrian crisis and the recent escalation. It is the belief of my own office that we should immediately implement an emergency plan to end (or at least freeze) the conflict before the escalation leads to mass death as it did on Cassalon. Nuclear warheads are in play. And even if they were not, there is evidence of massacres against civilians with conventional weapons. The only way to ensure long-term safety and security and that Xyri remains a viable partner is to end the conflict before it spirals out of control.

As such, in my role on the Command Staff, I endorse the plan recommended by the Multispectrum War Office and Major Novohal.

It will also grant our FLF troops further ground experience and provide valuable lessons for the future deployment of the MAT.

Colonel Amine Bennani, HSWS Command Staff

Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

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