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Transposition, or: Ship Happens [Worm/Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio | Arpeggio of Blue Steel]

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Darth Thanatos said:
And without evidence of criminal activity going on, good luck getting it.
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I wonder, with tinkers being a thing, does law regulates High Energy installation without license.

Javi said:
cause they are better than anything he could do or even Dragon.
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Not necessarily. Taylor made reactors hodge-podge, it's not sleek design delivered from up high.

Franklymydear said:
Really. Has there ever been anything like that that required people to work it out?
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Outer Continental Shelf - Wikipedia
See also disputes about oil extraction in Continental Shelf in general
 
Mashadarof402 said:
only a modicum of investigative work by the PRT.
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Worth noting, though, is that the PRT first needs to know there's something to investigate, to actually go through that modicum of investigative work. And there's also the matter of actually connecting the mysterious new construction to Taylor, which... isn't actually that reasonable, at this point. Realistically, the PRT has a lot more things to pay attention to than Taylor's activities, and that's not even getting to the whole mess of "is this even our jurisdiction?", if the factory is outside the city. While Ziz hasn't destroyed all the orbital infrastructure, it has wrecked a fair amount of it, and there is no guarantee of daily passes at suitable angles by those satellite surveillance systems you mention. How does the PRT actually prove the structure was erected in a single day, if Taylor has fabricated enough (possibly back-dated) electronic records to suggest otherwise?

It's one thing for the PRT to investigate Taylor without the whole thing being hand-waved away, but you seem to be assuming a level of competence, response time and surveillance awareness that the stretched-thin PRT of Brockton Bay doesn't really have. In addition, even if the PRT did somehow have the capabilities to investigate Taylor's activities faster than Taylor's electronic counterintelligence ability can detect it and start covering tracks further, it doesn't make sense for Taylor to immediately be the highest priority target of those capabilities, what with everything the gangs are doing in the city. Quite frankly, it's more likely that Coil will catch on to Taylor's business before the PRT gets the time to do so.
 
Martenzo said:
and that's not even getting to the whole mess of "is this even our jurisdiction?", if the factory is outside the city.
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Do recall that the Brockton Bay group is called "East North-East", which presumably means they're responsible for more than just the city. (It's actually totally possible that the team is officially a fair bit bigger than we've seen, it's just we never meet the other members because they're over in no-name-ville dealing with random local villains. I'm aware that this isn't supported by canon, and we would probably have met them in one of the endbringer battles if nothing else. But even so.)
 
RDJ said:
Fog ships are perfectly capable of pulling off their bullship underwater. Maybe if she's forced to think about it a bit Taylor will move her stuff out to the bottom of the ocean? It's kinda hard to get a warrant for and inspect something that's a couple hundred feet underwater.
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Its also difficult to get legal ownership of the land which would make a warrant necessary, if no one legally owns it then inspecting the site is just a matter of whipping up a submarine and going visiting.
 
Mackon said:
Its also difficult to get legal ownership of the land which would make a warrant necessary, if no one legally owns it then inspecting the site is just a matter of whipping up a submarine and going visiting.
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But again, it's at the bottom of the ocean. Who is going to notice that, and who is going to force Tay to move it? Is a bureaucrat going to take a little sub out there and post a cease and desist on the front door? Physical threats isnt going to work, because in Taylor's home field nothing short of the triumvirate is gonna win if it devolves into a fight.
 
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RDJ said:
But again, it's at the bottom of the ocean. Who is going to notice that, and who is going to force Tay to move it? Is a bureaucrat going to take a little sub out there and post a cease and desist on the front door? Physical threats isnt going to work, because in Taylor's home field nothing short of the triumvirate is gonna win if it devolves into a fight.
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Are we ceasing and desisting now? I thought the idea was about stopping Armsy and Dragon coming around to inspect the tech. Why would random bureaucrats be involved? Personally, I'm not that bothered by the tinker power couple coming around and seeing some stuff but I'd thought I throw my two cents in about the legal entry/warrants idea.
 
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RDJ said:
But again, it's at the bottom of the ocean. Who is going to notice that, and who is going to force Tay to move it? Is a bureaucrat going to take a little sub out there and post a cease and desist on the front door? Physical threats isnt going to work, because in Taylor's home field nothing short of the triumvirate is gonna win if it devolves into a fight.
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And even with them... Well I would find it interesting what a Thanatonium Torpedo would do to Alexandria.
 
Bobkyou said:
Considering that the world of Worm is circling the drain, and that murders, rapists, and human traffickers walk the streets unpunished, would anyone really care enough about some junk properties to dedicate resources to properly investigate and enforce the rules on such a low priority crime?
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As I commented, the shipyard, as described, is so far out of the way, that it feels like not even the Merchants bothered with it.

Also, while the shipyard is inside the area under Brockton Bay jurisdiction, there is an important difference betwen the urban area, i.e. the buildings and land properties that make the city itself, and the areas that are outside of that. The regulations related to water, sewers, electricity, etc. apply usually only to the built area of a city, be it residential or commercial areas.

I think that as long as the shipyard's taxes are paid and up to date, City Hall will not give a shit about the shipyard. Unless Taylor starts hiring. That might attract attention.

Martenzo said:
Worth noting, though, is that the PRT first needs to know there's something to investigate, to actually go through that modicum of investigative work.
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That's also what I said. Out of sight, out of mind. And the shipyard has been out of notice for so long that Taylor will have a lot of time to fix the records and so whatever she needs to do.

Also, the buildings have been refurbished, but nothing in the outside indicates their function, so there is no way to know if there is tinkertech or not inside. So unless Taylor starts putting signs like "Fusion Plant #1" or "Thanatonium production facility #4" in the outside, there are no signs of tinkertech for the PRT to investigate. Just a pristine shipyard with one submarine in one of the drydocks. At least she didn't start by building a Fletcher.
 
Establish it in the ocean floor, where only Dragon can reach, and declare it sovereign territory of Relentless. Now, Dragon must obey Relentless when in that region.
 
Segev said:
Establish it in the ocean floor, where only Dragon can reach, and declare it sovereign territory of Relentless. Now, Dragon must obey Relentless when in that region.
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While being an excellent example of the stupidity of Dragon's restraints, unfortunately Taylor is not SB/SV competent and wouldn't know about that exploit.

Mackon said:
Are we ceasing and desisting now? I thought the idea was about stopping Armsy and Dragon coming around to inspect the tech. Why would random bureaucrats be involved? Personally, I'm not that bothered by the tinker power couple coming around and seeing some stuff but I'd thought I throw my two cents in about the legal entry/warrants idea.
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The whole arguement was about the illegality of Taylor's actions and what Armsy and the people he works for would do in response. Even then, Armsy/Dragon in a sub can do jack shit to an underwater Fog installation. Humans don't underwater very well and Fog ships have alot of dakka, y'see?

Alayne said:
And even with them... Well I would find it interesting what a Thanatonium Torpedo would do to Alexandria.
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Alexandria is probably rendered impotent right off the bat right away regardless, Legend too, because of the whole needing to breathe thing. Any breathing gear would be stripped away rather quickly by even conventional Fog munitions. Mr. Grab Bag would probably have a power to compensate though.
 
RDJ said:
The whole arguement was about the illegality of Taylor's actions and what Armsy and the people he works for would do in response. Even then, Armsy/Dragon in a sub can do jack shit to an underwater Fog installation. Humans don't underwater very well and Fog ships have alot of dakka, y'see?
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I think its over the top, first up people were saying Arsmy and Dragon can't come into the compound because that would be illegal trespassing all nice and civilized in the courts with lawyers and the next step killing everybody :confused: If you want to go villain and declare war on America that's cool but if you are just setting up boundaries and ownership under American law then not killing people from the government is probably good guideline to stick to.
 
Mackon said:
I think its over the top, first up people were saying Arsmy and Dragon can't come into the compound because that would be illegal trespassing all nice and civilized in the courts with lawyers and the next step killing everybody :confused: If you want to go villain and declare war on America that's cool but if you are just setting up boundaries and ownership under American law then not killing people from the government is probably good guideline to stick to.
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I get that .The whole point of Taylor going deep underwater would be to make it too much of a hassle to prosecute/inspect/whatever her. Is it really worth bugging the powerful cape who has generally shown to be heroically minded over building something out in an area that literally nobody else would care about otherwise?

If Taylor had announced a desire to carpet-nuke the PRT or something equally violent then yeah, she'd have capes coming out the wazoo to bring her down no matter where she sets up. But Taylor hasn't done that.
 
Martenzo said:
Worth noting, though, is that the PRT first needs to know there's something to investigate, to actually go through that modicum of investigative work. And there's also the matter of actually connecting the mysterious new construction to Taylor, which... isn't actually that reasonable, at this point. Realistically, the PRT has a lot more things to pay attention to than Taylor's activities, and that's not even getting to the whole mess of "is this even our jurisdiction?", if the factory is outside the city. While Ziz hasn't destroyed all the orbital infrastructure, it has wrecked a fair amount of it, and there is no guarantee of daily passes at suitable angles by those satellite surveillance systems you mention. How does the PRT actually prove the structure was erected in a single day, if Taylor has fabricated enough (possibly back-dated) electronic records to suggest otherwise?

It's one thing for the PRT to investigate Taylor without the whole thing being hand-waved away, but you seem to be assuming a level of competence, response time and surveillance awareness that the stretched-thin PRT of Brockton Bay doesn't really have. In addition, even if the PRT did somehow have the capabilities to investigate Taylor's activities faster than Taylor's electronic counterintelligence ability can detect it and start covering tracks further, it doesn't make sense for Taylor to immediately be the highest priority target of those capabilities, what with everything the gangs are doing in the city. Quite frankly, it's more likely that Coil will catch on to Taylor's business before the PRT gets the time to do so.
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I don't think her refurbishment of the shipyard was particularly subtle.

And while PRT ENE is thin stretched, work on this scale practically begs for attention. She isn't setting up shop in an abandoned warehouse which is low key and easy to hide, but refurbishing a large scale industrial district (military shipyards aren't small).

On top of that, they don't need to do it all by themselves. The kind of paperwork fraud she's committed isn't just the PRT's fief, but the IRS and other regulatory bodies as well, so they'd have to be called in to pitch their resources towards finding out how big this apparently well entrenched criminal organization is (because the scale of her work looks too big to be done by any individual or small group of newbie individuals).

Remember, Taylor can mess with electronic records, but she'll not have any of the actual paperwork, and she doesn't have any witnesses (because there are none) for any of the usual legal contracts that would be signed for all of this.

Unless the US government went entirely digital, very unlikely, she has some very big holes in her legal cover that anyone investigating will easily dig up.
 
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Mashadarof402 said:
I don't think her refurbishment of the shipyard was particularly subtle.
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I mean... By large works standards I'd say it was?

Sure it's not terribly subtle to have construction and structures spring up literally overnight, but it's a lot more covert than building it conventionally would have been, what with the weeks if not months of labor and the infrastructure needed to put it all to use, not to mention the raw materials necessities...
 
I think you all are blowing this all out of proportion and should wait until ensou show what will happen , since i think that this discussion is getting kinda pointless by now .
 
All this talk of underwater bases makes me wander if Taylor cant eventually just build a massive submarine with her factory equipment in it. What kind of laws would apply to a factory submarine that stays out in International Waters where no one can find it? Does she need to register the ship with some government agency? It would be damn hard for anyone to enforce laws on something they cant find or catch.
 
Mashadarof402 said:
Unless the US government went entirely digital, very unlikely, she has some very big holes in her legal cover that anyone investigating will easily dig up.
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In theory, they could have. An all digital bureaucracy would better facilitate Cauldron pulling the strings in the background. Sure it'd be a really dumb thing to do in a world with tinkers and thinkers, but when has that ever stopped Cauldron? :cool:
 
Solacen said:
All this talk of underwater bases makes me wander if Taylor cant eventually just build a massive submarine with her factory equipment in it. What kind of laws would apply to a factory submarine that stays out in International Waters where no one can find it? Does she need to register the ship with some government agency? It would be damn hard for anyone to enforce laws on something they cant find or catch.
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All ships are required to register to a nation and be subject to the laws in regards to it.

Yes, that includes submarines.

Sure, Taylor could go pirate queen, but it wouldn't make her legally untouchable. The opposite in fact.

Bobkyou said:
In theory, they could have. An all digital bureaucracy would better facilitate Cauldron pulling the strings in the background. Sure it'd be a really dumb thing to do in a world with tinkers and thinkers, but when has that ever stopped Cauldron? :cool:
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It would be a momentous task far in excess of what Cauldron can do with the assets they have, especially considering the opportunity cost. While you're busy getting tax returns digitized, a dozen new S class threats that they normally would have nipped in the bud are now off burning down the White House, Congress and the IRS.

So no. Cauldron is not your "handwave stupidity" button.
 
She could, as an alternative to piracy or registering with an extant nation, declare her sub a sovereign nation and attempt to convince other nations to recognize its legitimacy.
 
Segev said:
She could, as an alternative to piracy or registering with an extant nation, declare her sub a sovereign nation and attempt to convince other nations to recognize its legitimacy.
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Hah, we're right back to my suggestion! :V

13th Fleet said:
Taylor should create the First National Fog Bank. :V

She should also hack the global banking system so that it's a recognized financial institution, and whenever they correct it just hack them again. Eventually the world's financial institutions just give up and let it stay because of a combination of it not being worth the effort and it basically being like the central bank of a nation.

After this, Taylor the Fog applies for UN membership. You know you want this to happen @ensou!
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If you try to not have the law apply to you you will most likely fail. Should you somehow succeed anyways you won't have achieved anything because what someone would have done to uphold the law can now be done just because they feel like it. In an effort to remove your constraints you will actually have removed all protections aside from your own personal power.
 
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