Time of the Gods: Into the Amber Age

Though to be entirely fair to AN, he was working from scratch with an untested homebrew engine, so it having flaws should not be taken as criticizing him.
Oh yeah, definitely not going to criticize him over that. Seriously, I think it's an unspoken (and often ignored) rule of thumb that anyone who is poineering a field, will in hindsight, be inevitably crap at it, purely because they are literally making it up as they go along. Everyone after wards is "Standing on the shoulder's of Giants."

What they don't mention is that the giant's are 5'3", and are about to snap in half from all the people standing on top of them. Somebody get Freud a crutch! What? No, not thematic joke crutch, an actual one! Maybe a walker, seriously, I think he's about to give out here...
 
[X] Have it forever ornament your shoal! (Gaerig permanently gains Moonbeam while she controls the Teeth of the Sea Holy Place; Moonbeam grants a Minor Legend roll whenever rolling a Major Astrology success or better.), disallows decomposing the Sphere for silver units, Major Legend roll
 
[X] Have it forever ornament your shoal!

The only options that are even competitive are Basking and Affinity - Moon, in my opinion.
 
I go to sleep, I wake up, two pages of discussion. Almost glad my throat feels lumpy and keeps me from conking out that long, I'm terrified of what a full night would hit me with.
:D


It is hard to say; at this point, I haven't seen Shrine Extensions or the actual implementation of my Fear/Faith suggestion, so I don't know how powerful Shrine would be relative to Fear. That said, assuming that I can believe that Fear/Faith could use a boost - in which case, the natural thing to switch is either the number or max level of Shrine Extensions. That switch is nice because having two different traits control Level and Quantity of shrine extensions makes more gameplay sense than stacking it all in one place for quadratic growth. It also fits with the Faith/Fear to Legend connection; you need a certain amount of reverence before your Symbols are able to hold power.

In that sense, I'd actually slightly lean towards Shrine controlling quantity and Faith/Fear controlling max level. It feels like Faith being a bound for how much power your shrines can store is more natural than it bounding how many places can store it. Especially since Shrine already bounds how many places can store the-threshold-level-of-power-needed-to-make-a-shine-in-the-first-place (i.e. Shrine cap). That said, this is a weak preference and you have info on the system that I don't, so your original choice of having Shrine control max upgrade level and Faith/Fear control number might be the better option after all.
Shrine extensions will have their level of power affected by the shrine tier of the shrine you apply it to, so if you have high influence (more shrines) and high shrine/faith/fear since that's your preference to swap out (better shrines), you can have more, and more powerful, extensions (you have a single T10 shrine at 0 influence and 10 -Shrine/Faith/Fear-; with this, you can unlock multiple different extensions buy picking up Shrine, but you can only apply a single expansion since you only have a single shrine).
@Powerofmind, if we ever want the silver, can we still get it in exchange for giving up the moonbeam trait?
Taking Moonbeam permanently removes your ability to take out the sphere. Enemies with sufficient physical strength can attempt to remove it, removing the ability, but it can never be willingly scrapped for parts.
Dude, we nearly lost our social encounter to Saiga of all people (who hasn't even been around that long)
Has been awake for at least 80 years, assuming roughly 1/3 of a Faith spirit's lifetime is spent sleeping.
On that note. @Powerofmind - are you changing the way demispirits/monsters work in this quest? Because frankly, the way they worked in AN's quest was very imbalanced. It was a totally unopposed way of Legend farming, and perhaps as importantly, the system wasn't sustainable once you got to >10 demispirits (and even less than that, actually). Cause honestly, keeping track of that many NPCs is tricky.

Do you have any solutions in mind?
I am fiddling with them as well, with only specifically empowered demispirits capable of ascension or legend generation, both of which are reduced, in how easily it can happen, and in how much they generate/how much goes to you on ascension (this empowerment is very costly to enact and can only be done during the creation of the demispirit). For those not specifically empowered, they are basically children-of-demis in terms of ability and notability for narrative. Their sole purpose is to birth non-human sapient races.
 
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I am fiddling with them as well, with only specifically empowered demispirits capable of ascension or legend generation, both of which are reduced, in how easily it can happen, and in how much they generate/how much goes to you on ascension (this empowerment is very costly to enact and can only be done during the creation of the spirit).
Is the empowerment done on the point of their death(which is when they become a spirit) or birth?

Mythology would tend to say on death. Many of Zeus's children never amounted to anything, but the ones that DID largely seized their destiny by the balls with their own hands. Likewise, the rest of Medea's family lived and died as mildly exceptional mortals, but she was deified.

Mechanics would say at birth, since it flags "Pay Attention To This Baby" and makes your life SO much easier when most of the children and monsters are just background material. If so I hope it's AFTER the trait rolls, since well...not all of them are going to be winners, and a big investment there would suck if the rolls don't favor us on the baby.
Which makes me wonder what kind of investment it would take.

Couple of guesses:
-Legend - Simple thing, pump in a chunk of our Legend(probably % base of our total legend?), so the child is born a Protagonist and capable of catalyzing their own ascension. Basically a fixed deposit, to be paid back on their ascension. Or if they flop, we just lose the Legend outright.

-Attribute/Trait investment - Commit an Attribute/Trait to them and suffer significant diminishment in the form of an external penalty(investment model, get paid back on their death, caps maximum number) or permanent point loss(payment model, no repayment guarantee, but can be repurchased)

-Slot lock - Like a shrine slot, maximum number of Significant Children is capped. Simplest approach to reducing overhead, but strongly incentivizes maintaining at least one at any given time, unless they share slots. One possibly painful one is satiation consumption, if they just automatically consume that much of our attention every year and thus reduce our ability to act(this hopefully would be tied to a number of freebie actions interacting with them if so)

Any hints?
 
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Is the empowerment done on the point of their death(which is when they become a spirit) or birth?

Mythology would tend to say on death. Many of Zeus's children never amounted to anything, but the ones that DID largely seized their destiny by the balls with their own hands. Likewise, the rest of Medea's family lived and died as mildly exceptional mortals, but she was deified.

Mechanics would say at birth, since it flags "Pay Attention To This Baby" and makes your life SO much easier when most of the children and monsters are just background material. If so I hope it's AFTER the trait rolls, since well...not all of them are going to be winners, and a big investment there would suck if the rolls don't favor us.
Which makes me wonder what kind of investment it would take.

Couple of guesses:
-Legend - Simple thing, pump in a chunk of our Legend(probably % base of our total legend?), so the child is born a Protagonist and capable of catalyzing their own ascension. Basically a fixed deposit, to be paid back on their ascension.

-Attribute/Trait investment - Commit an Attribute/Trait to them and suffer significant diminishment in the form of an external penalty(investment model, get paid back on their death, caps maximum number) or permanent point loss(payment model, no repayment guarantee, but can be repurchased)

-Slot lock - Like a shrine slot, maximum number of Significant Children is capped. Simplest approach to reducing overhead, but strongly incentivizes maintaining at least one at any given time, unless they share slots.

Any hints?
Deification on death is locked for spirits. You could potentially do that at a higher tier.

It does go from the mechanical perspective as you figured. I'm also going to be fiddling with the cost-per-kid formula so they are cheaper in general principle. Sustenance is such a useful game mechanic for things like this, don't you think?

I am especially attached to the unspent Legend investment, where the child can provide a maximum return on investment of around twice what you put in (though they have to meet their original investment to ascend); the only caveat is that they have to survive that long or be that impressive, otherwise you lose the whole investment.

Attribute investment was my second, primarily Avatar, as it would provide a means of capping the maximum number of kids you could spit out at once and basically swinging around like additional avatars. You wouldn't lose the investment if they die, of course, which sort of creates that 'you should always have at least X demispirits' problem.

The other two suggested I was not especially fond of.
 
Would those also apply to monsters? I am quite interested in rolling out a monstrous race or two (or twenty). They don't add npcs the same way a bunch of the time, but the far reaching consequences seem a lot more fun.

Honestly I am not particularly interested in getting some demispirit to ascend either way. I really doubt he will grow up liking his mother, we are kind of nasty to the villagers after all. We would probably be better off just having sex with Saiga and making another faith spirit that could bless our people and help defray our excesses, but that wouldn't have decades of being concerned about mommy dearest killing daddy or his friends.
 
It does go from the mechanical perspective as you figured. I'm also going to be fiddling with the cost-per-kid formula so they are cheaper in general principle. Sustenance is such a useful game mechanic for things like this, don't you think?
It does make a useful way to handle significant kids. Fixed sustenance upkeep per significant child would hard AND softcap them, since the more kids we have the fewer avatar actions we have left. Does translate a bit poorly to fire and forget monsters though.



I am especially attached to the unspent Legend investment, where the child can provide a maximum return on investment of around twice what you put in (though they have to meet their original investment to ascend); the only caveat is that they have to survive that long or be that impressive, otherwise you lose the whole investment.
Personally I like that approach the most too, though since we're a Fear spirit, it means that whether we have enough Legend for that would be very difficult to establish, since we spend Legend as fast as we earn it. Unless we can bank Legend like we might bank ambrosia for a significant child. That conflicts with the "assign legend after we see the trait rolls" option though.
 
It does make a useful way to handle significant kids. Fixed sustenance upkeep per significant child would hard AND softcap them, since the more kids we have the fewer avatar actions we have left. Does translate a bit poorly to fire and forget monsters though.




Personally I like that approach the most too, though since we're a Fear spirit, it means that whether we have enough Legend for that would be very difficult to establish, since we spend Legend as fast as we earn it. Unless we can bank Legend like we might bank ambrosia for a significant child. That conflicts with the "assign legend after we see the trait rolls" option though.
No, sustenance wouldn't be an upkeep per kid, it would be a cost-per-kid element, dictating total traits received on birth.

Demispirits are harder for fear spirits. Monsters aren't, though. They're the ones I'm thinking of putting an Avatar penalty on to cap the maximum number of (since you can't swing them around like extra arms as demispirits will trend towards if you're a good mommy).
 
Ah so you won't actually need any sort of limiter on them at all?
Not sure which thing you're talking about, but here's the relative pros and cons of each as it stands:
Demi-spirit Pros-
Easier to control.
What you get in is what you get out if you're careful about keeping them alive.
Doesn't remove avatar attribute.

Demi-spirit Cons-
Costs your unspent legend for potentially extreme amounts of time before they can give you a return on your investment (especially rough on Fear spirits who don't sleep and get longer apparent wait times for R.O.I.).
Costs your unspent legend as a gamble; if they die too soon, you get nothing back, so if you want to make Demi-spirit kids who can be useful to you and use them, you run the risk of losing legend permanently, or you get very little return when they die and clog up your area with spirits you may eventually have to kill.

Monster Pros-
Omegahugger likes them, thus, for some arcane reason, I like them.
Can give you legend with no permanent loss of investment if they die too soon (still not 100% on the mechanics behind when they give you legend/ascend, but definitely not 100% of legend at-the-time, maybe closer to the Avatar Level Locked by them+half or a quarter of at-the-time legend).
Doesn't interfere with legend count/doesn't require legend a Fear spirit may not have access to.

Monster Cons-
Hard to control, even if you're as bad as they are.
Weakens you directly as long as they haven't ascended, provides incentive to kill off your own young to consolidate your strength.
Probably going to provide noticeably less net legend than demispirits (due to the punishing nature of the gamble mechanic).
 
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Demi-spirit Cons-
Costs your unspent legend for potentially extreme amounts of time before they can give you a return on your investment (especially rough on Fear spirits who don't sleep and get longer apparent wait times for R.O.I.).
Costs your unspent legend as a gamble; if they die too soon, you get nothing back, so if you want to make Demi-spirit kids who can be useful to you and use them, you run the risk of losing legend permanently, or you get very little return when they die and clog up your area with spirits you may eventually have to kill.
I actually really like this. It means that dumping your Demispirit in the wilderness is a gamble within a gamble. Increased chance of your offspring dying in return for basically insuring you get your money's worth if it lives.

Not that I recommend we do that, there's a slight difference in temperature between us and Harzivan's area.
 
Not sure which thing you're talking about, but here's the relative pros and cons of each as it stands:
Demi-spirit Pros-
Easier to control.
What you get in is what you get out if you're careful about keeping them alive.
Doesn't remove avatar attribute.

Demi-spirit Cons-
Costs your unspent legend for potentially extreme amounts of time before they can give you a return on your investment (especially rough on Fear spirits who don't sleep and get longer apparent wait times for R.O.I.).
Costs your unspent legend as a gamble; if they die too soon, you get nothing back, so if you want to make Demi-spirit kids who can be useful to you and use them, you run the risk of losing legend permanently, or you get very little return when they die and clog up your area with spirits you may eventually have to kill.

Monster Pros-
Omegahugger likes them, thus, for some arcane reason, I like them.
Can give you legend with no permanent loss of investment if they die too soon (still not 100% on the mechanics behind when they give you legend/ascend, but definitely not 100% of legend at-the-time, maybe closer to the Avatar Level Locked by them+half or a quarter of at-the-time legend).
Doesn't interfere with legend count/doesn't require legend a Fear spirit may not have access to.

Monster Cons-
Hard to control, even if you're as bad as they are.
Weakens you directly as long as they haven't ascended, provides incentive to kill off your own young to consolidate your strength.
Probably going to provide noticeably less net legend than demispirits (due to the punishing nature of the gamble mechanic).

I presume this means Significant children rather than gene pool randoms?

Anyway for Demispirits, I see them mainly as ways to fill out skills your spirit lacks, so we see less competition even if they ascend, as they would be in a useful position to dominate. So ironically we might want to produce either weak demispirits(in the early game phase like we are in now), who can focus on their human element and ascend with skills we lack, or VERY strong demispirits, who are packed with enough trait rolls that they basically roulette into some role we can't fill.


Honestly I am not particularly interested in getting some demispirit to ascend either way. I really doubt he will grow up liking his mother, we are kind of nasty to the villagers after all. We would probably be better off just having sex with Saiga and making another faith spirit that could bless our people and help defray our excesses, but that wouldn't have decades of being concerned about mommy dearest killing daddy or his friends.
Not very difficult to keep a specific demispirit happy with you even while being a jerk to everyone else really.
 
I presume this means Significant children rather than gene pool randoms?
Both demispirit and monster gene pool randoms lose many of the defining traits of Ur-spawn (I like that, from now on Significant demi/monster are Ur-children and Ur-beasts). Demispirits gain no legend and only get their traits to modify their base skill cap 5, and act as any other sapient with the exception of possible light compulsion/stereotypes given by traits. Monsters act as any natural beast would, as they have no incentive or compulsion to generate fear. They are basically gene-engineered wild animals barring, again, light compulsions/special effects of their traits. The difference between an Ur-spawn and a regular spawn is on the same level as the fantasy difference between a drake and a dragon. Using a taxonomical description, the parent spirit dictates the Order classification, the base mate determines the Family (with Ur-spawn and spawn being split into sub-families), and Genus being the particular mix of traits the child is born with. Species are developed over time as the spawn disseminates into the general population of the area.
 
[X] Have it forever ornament your shoal!

The thing with Fear spirits is that you don't have to worry about not gaining enough traits.
 
Vote Tally : Original - Time of the Gods: Into the Amber Age | Page 154 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.5

[X] Have it forever ornament your shoal!
No. of Votes: 23
Pandemonious Ivy
Ando Owen
Calanor
chocolote12
Crabs
Darkcrest
Fumbles
godofsmallthings
Killer_Whale
Mannan
Maragas
Melum
Mrl567
nixter
Omegahugger
paintedspear
PrimalShadow
Quest
Raising Kittens
Romv
sidestory
Sivantic
zeusthemoose

[X] Astral Affinity - Moon, Major Legend roll
No. of Votes: 6
ninjafish
Edkose
frostgiant
RedV
Vanguard_D
Zoxabels

[X] Have it forever ornament your shoal! (Gaerig permanently gains Moonbeam while she controls the Teeth of the Sea Holy Place; Moonbeam grants a Minor Legend roll whenever rolling a Major Astrology success or better.), disallows decomposing the Sphere for silver units, Major Legend roll
No. of Votes: 5
Shard
Broken25
Ephemeral_Dreamer
Van Ropen
veekie

[X] Accumulating Avatar discount +5, Major Legend roll
No. of Votes: 1
lioli

[X] Minor Spirit of Strength (+2 melee, 3 accumulating discount to Avatar), Major Legend roll
No. of Votes: 1
mc2rpg

[X] Accumulating Shrine discount +5, Major Legend roll
No. of Votes: 1
Abby Normal

Total No. of Voters: 37
28 to 6 in favour of keeping the giant ball.
 
Vote Tally : Original - Time of the Gods: Into the Amber Age | Page 154 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.5

[X] Have it forever ornament your shoal!
No. of Votes: 23
Pandemonious Ivy
Ando Owen
Calanor
chocolote12
Crabs
Darkcrest
Fumbles
godofsmallthings
Killer_Whale
Mannan
Maragas
Melum
Mrl567
nixter
Omegahugger
paintedspear
PrimalShadow
Quest
Raising Kittens
Romv
sidestory
Sivantic
zeusthemoose

[X] Astral Affinity - Moon, Major Legend roll
No. of Votes: 6
ninjafish
Edkose
frostgiant
RedV
Vanguard_D
Zoxabels

[X] Have it forever ornament your shoal! (Gaerig permanently gains Moonbeam while she controls the Teeth of the Sea Holy Place; Moonbeam grants a Minor Legend roll whenever rolling a Major Astrology success or better.), disallows decomposing the Sphere for silver units, Major Legend roll
No. of Votes: 5
Shard
Broken25
Ephemeral_Dreamer
Van Ropen
veekie

[X] Accumulating Avatar discount +5, Major Legend roll
No. of Votes: 1
lioli

[X] Minor Spirit of Strength (+2 melee, 3 accumulating discount to Avatar), Major Legend roll
No. of Votes: 1
mc2rpg

[X] Accumulating Shrine discount +5, Major Legend roll
No. of Votes: 1
Abby Normal

Total No. of Voters: 37
28 to 6 in favour of keeping the giant ball.
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were somehow trying to convince me to lock the vote already. But you wouldn't try to get me to lock a vote within 6 hours of opening it, would you?

Give it at least until 8 or 9 AM EST (2-3 hours). I may be excitable and do early locks sometimes, but I have that much control of myself, at least.
 
Monsters act as any natural beast would, as they have no incentive or compulsion to generate fear. They are basically gene-engineered wild animals barring, again, light compulsions/special effects of their traits.

Excellent.
This also relieves the issue of rapidly producing a deathworld from making more than a few monsters.

Demispirits gain no legend and only get their traits to modify their base skill cap 5, and act as any other sapient with the exception of possible light compulsion/stereotypes given by traits.


So Beastfolk and culture role traits would be very popular then for demis, while elementals work better for Ur-children who'd actually excel far enough to matter.
 
This also relieves the issue of rapidly producing a deathworld from making more than a few monsters.
I didn't change anything there. That was AN's own rule. Only the direct monster children of a parent spirit acted as fear-seekers, unless their passed-on traits were specifically designed for them to benefit from Fear (somewhat like Breathtaker).
 
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