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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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fictionfan said:
We don't actually do turns anymore. It seems likely to me that if we dash towards him he leaps back.
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Initiative still exists, however. While 'we don't do turns', Yrs still writes things happening consecutively, not 'all at once'. It could be that he just 'leaps back', though that would probably be him dodging our attack mechanically.

I think people are being confused because of the distance involved, but here is the actual same scenario: Ji Rong and Liling are sparring and they are 5m away from each others. If Liling wins initiative, she will attack first, it won't be 'Liling moves one metre, and then Ji Rong attacks'. Likewise, Ji Rong 'leaping back' would be him dodging.

The BINO is 2m away from our mist, and as such he is very much within 'melee range' of us.
naths said:
As I see it, a dash needs time. A few seconds maybe, but that is still time that is needed for it. During that time he can of course do something too, given that he is a cultivator with a higher cultivation than us, and probably at least decent speed stat. Also, this is not so strictly turn based that someone 'wins initiative' and then the other guy needs to wait until it is his turn. It should be quite possible for both to do something.

Now to the question if he can actually break FVM. We dont know if he can, but since I was arguing for a worst case scenario, I assumed that he can. And in that case doing the dash is more risky than not doing it. That could of course end up ending up as a 'higher risk - higher reward' case, but it could also end up as a 'only risk - no reward' case.

You can of course argue that you consider my worst case scenario as unlikely enough to try it anyways, just the same as I can argue that I dont like the 'higher risk' part.
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I am arguing that your scenario is impossible, because it not only contradicts every prior fights in the current system, but assume initiative doesn't do anything.
 
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Arkeus said:
Initiative still exists, however. While 'we don't do turns', Yrs still writes things happening consecutively, not 'all at once'. It could be that he just 'leaps back', though that would probably be him dodging our attack mechanically.

I think people are being confused because of the distance involved, but here is the actual same scenario: Ji Rong and Liling are sparring and they are 5m away from each others. If Liling wins initiative, she will attack first, it won't be 'Liling moves one metre, and then Ji Rong attacks'. Likewise, Ji Rong 'leaping back' would be him dodging.

The BINO is 2m away from our mist, and as such he is very much within 'melee range' of us.

I am arguing that your scenario is impossible, because it not only contradicts every prior fights in the current system, but assume initiative doesn't do anything.
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for one, our Initiative isnt higher than his or equal, it is worse. Why? because we are Green 2 while he is Green 5, so the cultivation penalty applies

For reference: ```Differing cultivation gives penalties or bonuses to an opponent's statistics in comparison to the protagonist. Each level of cultivation beneath yours inflicts a -10 to all derived attributes in comparison to yours, each one above grants a +10. ```

So if we have both B as starting stat, he will have effective B30 Initiative now.

and for second, he had all the time in the world to set up his defensive and supporting techs, that we cant remove before this happens. And unless he is very stupid he will have done this setup. As it is, it feels like you are arguing that none of those techs could be a problem for us or that he has none.
 
I'm more concerned about triggering a Bai brand counter to punish us for moving towards him.

Their whole thing after all is about inviting attack and then punishing you for it. And what do you call his current posture but inviting our attack before we get reinforced?
 
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I think that exploding TE now is better because otherwise Renxiang might decide to go into the mist, fully expecting Ling Qi to share her mist-vision with her and her people (which is not an unreasonable assumption if one doesn't know how much qi it costs). In that case Ling Qi is going to be stuck in an uncomfortable position of needing to explode the mist while allies are inside it too.
 
naths said:
for one, our Initiative isnt higher than his or equal, it is worse. Why? because we are Green 2 while he is Green 5, so the cultivation penalty applies

For reference: ```Differing cultivation gives penalties or bonuses to an opponent's statistics in comparison to the protagonist. Each level of cultivation beneath yours inflicts a -10 to all derived attributes in comparison to yours, each one above grants a +10. ```

So if we have both B as starting stat, he will have effective B30 Initiative now.
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His stats are given to us including the cultivation bonuses.
yrsillar said:
cultivation difference added
Qi B Init ~B
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But yeah, please remove the bit where we try to get a railgunbowman from a counter happy clan into our big attack radius? Expanded on my last post to explain. Winning plan is otherwise good.
 
Alectai said:
I'm more concerned about triggering a Bai brand counter to punish us for moving towards him.

Their whole thing after all is about inviting attack and then punishing you for it. And what do you call his current posture but inviting our attack before we get reinforced?
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Getting as close as he can get to us without actually entering our field?

Also, if he's going to counter us, then it might as well be against a big B-rank hit. If he can counter *FVM*, then that's good info to get now, because it could also mean that he can counter SEA/Echoes and Renxiang's various auras later on.

Like, seriously, if you're this worried about counters the only reasonable conclusion is that you think we just shouldn't attack him or even get within Echoes range because we're too weak and will die. Yet you also think that his *main attacks* are manageable enough that we don't need to be focusing on throwing up all our defenses immediately and can for instance LW the Greens?
 
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Erebeal said:
Getting as close as he can get to us without actually entering our field?

Also, if he's going to counter us, then it might as well be against a big B-rank hit. If he can counter *FVM*, then that's good info to get now, because it could also mean that he can counter SEA/Echoes and Renxiang's various auras later on.

Like, seriously, if you're this worried about counters the only reasonable conclusion is that you think we just shouldn't attack him or even get within Echoes range because we're too weak and will die. Yet you also think that his *main attacks* are manageable enough that we don't need to be focusing on throwing up all our defenses immediately and can for instance LW the Greens?
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I'm suggesting we don't risk him nearly one shotting us with a buffed counter while we're out of the Cai buff chain, not that he has Meizhen grade aura counters.
 
Varder said:
I think that exploding TE now is better because otherwise Renxiang might decide to go into the mist, fully expecting Ling Qi to share her mist-vision with her and her people (which is not an unreasonable assumption if one doesn't know how much qi it costs). In that case Ling Qi is going to be stuck in an uncomfortable position of needing to explode the mist while allies are inside it too.
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In both plans we detonate TE as soon as it's possible, there is no case where we wait to do it.
Alectai said:
I'm more concerned about triggering a Bai brand counter to punish us for moving towards him.

Their whole thing after all is about inviting attack and then punishing you for it. And what do you call his current posture but inviting our attack before we get reinforced?
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That, huh, doesn't look like he is provocking an attack to counter:
yrsillar said:
"Can't expect peasants to do a Bai's work I suppose," she heard him sneer as he began to once again pull back that monstrous bow. Ling Qi found herself all too aware of how swiftly the cultivation advantage could change. He was a Framing Stage Cultivator, the fifth step of the third realm, and his spirit beast at the third step.
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He is getting ready to attack once again, he is keeping a couple metre away from the mist, and he already tried and failed to get his people out with an art. If he can counter FVM he is purposefully hiding it, or else he would have been within the mist to get free counters every turns from dissonance.

Furthermore, if we decide to exclude him from a B damage attack because we are afraid of his counters, this means we are assuming that we shouldn't do anything against him at all and just hope CRX can solo him.
Adhoc vote count started by Arkeus on May 30, 2019 at 7:08 AM, finished with 342 posts and 96 votes.
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Alectai said:
I'm suggesting we don't risk him nearly one shotting us with a buffed counter while we're out of the Cai buff chain, not that he has Meizhen grade aura counters.
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Tbh, I'm way more concerned that he's about to shoot past DWV with a C-rank Watchful Moon Analysis-like tech. It feels like the kind of thing I'd expect a Green 5 archer to have.

Mmm, though taking that and then a counter would be erk I guess.

And it is certainly true that we don't have our spiritual armor up at all.

Edit: that aside though, while I'm kinda convinced now, I really don't feel I can edit my plan in that regard. This is a point of discussion and one of the key differences between the three plans. I don't really think it's minor enough that I can just edit it out at the last minute here.
 
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I'm just advocating legioning up before we attack, trying silly games with positioning is too dangerous given the risk of counter attack, given our best defense against burst damage is easily overcome.given examples like CDE
 
Erebeal said:
Tbh, I'm way more concerned that he's about to shoot past DWV with a C-rank Watchful Moon Analysis-like tech. It feels like the kind of thing I'd expect a Green 5 archer to have.

Mmm, though taking that and then a counter would be erk I guess.

And it is certainly true that we don't have our spiritual armor up at all.
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Our only quick spiritual armour art is Heaven Scarred trunk, right? I don't think a counter would be 'spiritual', though. Iirc even Meizhen's counters to FVM were physical?

Also I agree, the main danger is that he is going to shoot past DWV with a defensive-tech ignore buffing tech. Not much we can do against that except hope that he fails IPF filter, or gets paralized by TE, or that CRX can protect us. Zhengui can technically heal us a bit, but we really don't have much we can do against a S.Hit archer but hope that our B armour can at least somewhat blunt the blow, even though he has A pen.
 
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Arkeus said:
Our only quick spiritual armour art is Heaven Scarred trunk, right? I don't think a counter would be 'spiritual', though. Iirc even Meizhen's counters to FVM were physical?
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No, her spiritual counter is blackwater riptide. Which is spiritual.

Regardless, it is certainly true that our defenses are low right now, and what we do have is physical focused. Opening ourselves up to a double hit would be pretty dangerous. Once we have SEA/Echoes, ILoF, and TRU up our spiritual defenses should be decent and I would be less worried about counters.

Anyway, as noted above, I don't feel I can change my plan at the last minute on this mater.
 
Erebeal said:
No, her spiritual counter is blackwater riptide. Which is spiritual.
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Looking it up, she had both a physical and a spiritual counter for spiritual. She countered HC with a physical counter, and then countered MotV with blackwater Riptide.

Regardless, it is certainly true that our defenses are low right now, and what we do have is physical focused. Opening ourselves up to a double hit would be pretty dangerous. Once we have SEA/Echoes, ILoF, and TRU up our spiritual defenses should be decent and I would be less worried about counters.

Anyway, as noted above, I don't feel I can change my plan at the last minute on this mater.
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Well, his pure hit is going to hurt more than a potential counter that he doesn't want to use (as he is staying out of the mist), and detonation in his face is the most likely way for him to not hit us this turn, given the chance of pazalysis. I guess it's also possible IPF will work, but I am not too confident given how lacklustre it was against yellows.

So I'd argue detonation in his face is our best defence :p
 
Alectai said:
It's literally just removing a conditional though.
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There are not that many differences between these plans you know :p

It's something that has been discussed. It's something that people have talked about as a reason for voting for one plan or another. I do not feel it is reasonable to change it at this stage.

I agree there are reasonable concerns about incoming damage. If you are concerned about them, I recommend BN's plan which doesn't do this and which prioritises getting Echoes up to mitigate the incoming fire.
 
Arkeus said:
It is immediate, the same way Ji Rong punching Ling Qi who is 2m away is immediate. At this distance it might arguably be faster to get him in the mist than trigger the explosion.
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Combat in this system is narrative. And I doubt that 'expand and detonate' action takes the same amount of time as 'detonate' action in a narrative system.
 
Hey, I don't know how time works. I'm just being amazed that Cai was somehow this close behind us. We haven't even destroyed the crappy sword yet!
 
Varder said:
Combat in this system is narrative. And I doubt that 'expand and detonate' action takes the same amount of time as 'detonate' action in a narrative system.
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"Walk and Detonate" takes the longer of "detonate" and "walk" for time, as we can do both at once, as Ling Qi isn't a robot.

"Speed" is an abstraction for how much she can walk while concentrating to "Detonate". Here is the vote:
-[] immediately detonate TE to even the odds and clear the way for our troops. See if we can catch the Bai in the blast with a quick dash forward, but don't worry if he avoids.
This clearly immediately detonate while walking. If we walk fast enough during the detonation to include him, then he is included. If we don't, then he isn't.

It depends on whether we can walk 2m during the time it takes to trigger the explosion. The vote clearly says that if we can't, it doesn't matter. So no matter what, the explosion will be immediate, the only difference is that Ling Qi will take one step forward while triggering the detonation.
 
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Arkeus said:
It depends on whether we can walk 2m during the time it takes to trigger the explosion. The vote clearly says that if we can't, it doesn't matter. So no matter what, the explosion will be immediate, the only difference is that Ling Qi will take one step forward while triggering the detonation.
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Why do you assume it's only two meters?
 
Varder said:
Why do you assume it's only two meters?
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Or that he'll just stand still and let us do it if it would actually hurt him?

But I've made my closing arguments, and they've been dismissed. We take where it goes I guess.

I would say though that assuming he couldn't nail the composure test with an innate +30 from the cultivation difference and laugh off the paralysis as a Bai, of all things, is super arrogant. It'd work on the bandits, but there's a world if difference between barely green deserters and rogues and a trained, middle green expert of an ancient and well established lineage.
 
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