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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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I have said it before, but I will do it again. As we have seen with Dodge, an advanced Skill is themed after the art we used to train it. I absolutely despise the idea of our Fade advanced Skill being based around memory deletion along the 'you dont remember me' line, which is a very real possibility with the ENM + Fade plan.

Further, as it is now Moon and Snakes kind of assumes the following plan for turn 5

4 physical
4 spiritual
4 TRF
2 CDE
3 PLR
1 SCS
1 Meridian opening
1 Xiao Fen tutoring

These are all needed if we want to complete all those arts and keep them equipped along with our base cultivation and the likely continuation of the tutoring.
Any plan of 'pushing back' an AP PLR from turn 4 means we have to sacrifice one of the above for the single AP ENM you want.

1 AP ENM is not enough to make it anywhere close to viable, so you will want more AP to it and to equip it you will need another AP for meridian opening and these AP will need to come from somewhere and i would like to know which other Art you want to sacrifice for ENM.

If you argue that you would wait until turn 6 or 7 for further training ENM then you might as well wait with that single AP until then

If you need to do your 'but i want to have stealth' plan then you should at least be upfront and honest about the things you want to abandon for it
 
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I do like the fact that stealth is fine is learning new arts but I just can't give up that explore option.
 
naths said:
I have said it before, but I will do it again. As we have seen with Dodge, an advanced Skill is themed after the art we used to train it. I absolutely despise the idea of our Fade advanced Skill being based around memory deletion along the 'you dont remember me' line, which is a very real possibility with the ENM + Fade plan.

Further, as it is now Moon and Snakes kind of assumes the following plan for turn 5

4 physical
4 spiritual
4 TRF
2 CDE
3 PLR
1 SCS
1 Meridian opening
1 Xiao Fen tutoring

These are all needed if we want to complete all those arts and keep them equipped along with our base cultivation and the likely continuation of the tutoring.
Any plan of 'pushing back' an AP PLR from turn 4 means we have to sacrifice one of the above for the single AP ENM you want.

1 AP ENM is not enough to make it anywhere close to viable, so you will want more AP to it and to equip it you will need another AP for meridian opening and these AP will need to come from somewhere and i would like to know which other Art you want to sacrifice for ENM.

If you argue that you would wait until turn 6 or 7 for further training ENM then you might as well wait with that single AP until then

If you need to do your 'but i want to have stealth' plan then you should at least be upfront and honest about the things you want to abandon for it
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The only art related thing we're sacrificing for ENM this turn is 1 AP of PLR. Will this make a difference for our PLR goals for turn 5?

One level of ENM also still gives attribute bonuses and more time to test the viability of stealth. The abilities may also still be situationally useful.

You're also making assumptions about ENM's message. I saw this earlier in the thread as well. ENM's message could just as well be about the value of memories or about treasuring moments in the present as you might forget them later. I don't think yrsillar would give us such a blatant trap option.
 
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Huo Yuhao said:
We will still get PLR 3 even with only 1 AP invested this turn. Even with only 1 level of ENM, we still get the attribute bonuses, and the skills may still be situationally useful. We may have more opportunities try out stealth as well if we get it now.
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PLR 3 now isnt the aim of this, PLR 5 in turn 5 is and that needs the 5 AP we plan for it, so if a plan does only 1 AP for it in turn 4, then we need 4 AP in turn 5 and that requires that you take one from the other options listed in my post.

Iirc, arkeus was hoping that the tutoring doesnt happen each month or that CDE completes with 3 instead of 4 AP (last i checked that had like 73% chance) but those are best case assumptions, so what if that doesnt happen? Then we are back to sacrificing stuff next turn and I would like to know what you see as priorities in that case
 
naths said:
PLR 3 now isnt the aim of this, PLR 5 in turn 5 is and that needs the 5 AP we plan for it, so if a plan does only 1 AP for it in turn 4, then we need 4 AP in turn 5 and that requires that you take one from the other options listed in my post.

Iirc, arkeus was hoping that the tutoring doesnt happen each month or that CDE completes with 3 instead of 4 AP (last i checked that had like 73% chance) but those are best case assumptions, so what if that doesnt happen? Then we are back to sacrificing stuff next turn and I would like to know what you see as priorities in that case
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I'd take the risk with CDE but I'll admit that it's concerning. I'd still prefer to take ENM now, if only for the derived attribute boosts and extra time to test out stealth. Is there a reason we need CDE to complete in turn 5, other than for potentially slotting it into our domain?

Our exact priorities for turn 6 would depend on our situation then. I believe taking ENM now and giving ourselves more options is worth it for developing our overall skillset. If we delay for too long, ENM may no longer be worth picking up.
 
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I admit that my stated possibility about the advanced skill is speculation, but it is a reasonable one given what is known about the art and about how advanced skills work. It isnt even a 'trap option', just an unpleasant theme for a skill defined by our training choice.

Completing CDE is not strictly necessary if you dont want the option for a domain insight (means we have to take SCS for sure though).

Before the last event ENM needed about 1AP per level (iirc that stayed true, but correct me if im wrong) and one 1AP for merdians to equip it from the very beginning, so repurposing the 2 AP CDE gives either ENM 1 and equipping it or ENM 2 and keeping it unequipped, which is both kind of underwhelming and not worth giving up completing CDE for me
 
naths said:
I admit that my stated possibility about the advanced skill is speculation, but it is a reasonable one given what is known about the art and about how advanced skills work. It isnt even a 'trap option', just an unpleasant theme for a skill defined by our training choice.

Completing CDE is not strictly necessary if you dont want the option for a domain insight (means we have to take SCS for sure though).

Before the last event ENM needed about 1AP per level (iirc that stayed true, but correct me if im wrong) and one 1AP for merdians to equip it from the very beginning, so repurposing the 2 AP CDE gives either ENM 1 and equipping it or ENM 2 and keeping it unequipped, which is both kind of underwhelming and not worth giving up completing CDE for me
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Right now, we're repurposing 1 PLR AP and 1 exploration AP for meridians and ENM 1. We would only have to sacrifice 1 CDE AP next turn (assuming we're increasing PLR AP to make up for this turn) and according to you, that still leaves us with a 73% chance of completing CDE. We could also delay PLR instead, unless there's a reason we want that by turn 5 as well, other than it being a very good art. As I said before, I'd take the risk with CDE though.

Thinking about it, you're right that it wouldn't be a trap option. If we don't like ENM's themes and don't slot it into our domain, however, the consequences probably wouldn't be worse than those of the King of the Forest arc, and even that seems very unlikely. My honest opinion is that the themes can actually be very good for us depending on how they're interpreted. There's a good chance that they'll be interpreted positively, as seen by FVM and FSS. If they are, I would really like themes centered around valuing memories.
 
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naths said:
I have said it before, but I will do it again. As we have seen with Dodge, an advanced Skill is themed after the art we used to train it. I absolutely despise the idea of our Fade advanced Skill being based around memory deletion along the 'you dont remember me' line, which is a very real possibility with the ENM + Fade plan.

Further, as it is now Moon and Snakes kind of assumes the following plan for turn 5

4 physical
4 spiritual
4 TRF
2 CDE
3 PLR
1 SCS
1 Meridian opening
1 Xiao Fen tutoring

These are all needed if we want to complete all those arts and keep them equipped along with our base cultivation and the likely continuation of the tutoring.
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Those aren't "all needed". 1 CDE has 73% chance of mastering CDE, for example, which means we can put 1 more PLR instead of it. 1 Xiao Fen tutoring is making the assumption we'd tutor her every turn, which seems unlikely to me. 4 Physical also is nice but not "needed". Here is another possibility:

3 physical
4 spiritual
4 TRF
1 CDE
4 PLR
2 ENM
1 SCS
1 Meridian opening

This would master all our arts except ENM which would be at ENM3 (so, appraisal potency). It does need us to not have Xiao Fen locked, but if it's locked I don't think sacrificing 1 ENM is a dealbreaker for making ENM usable, just make it weaker than it would otherwise be.
 
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My complains about the theme are less centred around the domain as i dont think it would get slotted anyways. It is instead about the advanced skill for Fade. SCS turned Dodge to Sable Grace, so capping Fade with ENM as our only art for it (which is one of the points of the stealth plan) will result in an ENM themed fade advancement and that one is themed around 'severing memories', so id guess the skill derived from it would too.

Yeah, i overlooked that exploration was turned to ENM too, but really if you want to use the hopefully free AP from not needing it for CDE, why not wait for the turn 5 plan? We would then know for sure what the odds would be for that, same for the tutoring btw

Edit: also i dont like that physical keeps getting reduced. It is already lagging by roughly 900 xp behind and doing so will just increase the gap
 
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I think the point is to get ENM earlier so that we have more time to use it and test out stealth. Also, the exploration AP that we would otherwise have this turn is a relatively poor investment, so it would be better to use that AP for ENM now instead of exploring this turn and having to sacrifice something else next turn.

I agree that we need to keep track of our physical cultivation so that it doesn't fall too far behind.
 
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I think doing ENM now is an attempt to ensure that ENM gets done ("we already started it") even in less optimal cases, because the plan went up after it was said that if we dont train it in the turns 4-6, then we might as well do a new archive 2 art instead.

If everyone thinks that exploration is a waste of AP then it would be better to put it back to physical
 
[X]Plan: Stealth is fine too
[X] Skill plan: Renxiang needs Help that won't get wrecked by spiritual attacks!
 
I'm going to say it again, dismissing Exploration just because "If it doesn't give us something amazing it's a waste" seems like folly to me. We got that map for a reason, and it wasn't to shove it under our pillows and forget about it.

Major Sites after all have been proven to be super good, and even a minor site can be good if it's got Wind. Hell, what happens if we find a site that gives a modifier to Base Cultivation? Doesn't that save us an absurd amount of AP?
 
In the long run, I'd rather have another art like ENM even if it means taking some minor risks and slightly delaying our cultivation and/or art progression. Having more options is very powerful in combat and new arts like ENM raise our attributes significantly as well.
 
Alectai said:
I'm going to say it again, dismissing Exploration just because "If it doesn't give us something amazing it's a waste" seems like folly to me. We got that map for a reason, and it wasn't to shove it under our pillows and forget about it.

Major Sites after all have been proven to be super good, and even a minor site can be good if it's got Wind. Hell, what happens if we find a site that gives a modifier to Base Cultivation? Doesn't that save us an absurd amount of AP?
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The thing is, according to Arkeus, the chance of finding anything useful is relatively low, unless yrsillar is rigging it for us.
 
... When I remember what happened after HDW and SES correctly, then I have a hard time believing all the claims about ENM (another archive 1 art) being a powerful new tool.
 
Huo Yuhao said:
The thing is, according to Arkeus, the chance of finding anything useful is relatively low, unless yrsillar is rigging it for us.
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To be honest, the map was given to us by Xin, it's likely curated to some degree that things we find using it are probably not going to be worthless to us. Hell, the Standing Stones in itself saved us a crazy amount of AP and is giving a boost to our skills too.

After that, it's a matter of making the rolls--and that means there's about a 35% chance per roll of getting something useful based on how the last one went. We get two to three rolls per AP.

Like, if you consider it as a single AP gives a single roll, it's garbage. But we're getting more than that.

Exploration is probably one of the only avenues we have to gain further Advanced Insights and potentially potent Arts--and the latter is becoming increasingly important now that we're mastering our current core stuff, and we can't count on the Cai Archive to give us successors for everything. Discarding that in favor of... Another Archive 1 Art after they've been proven to be mediocre gap fillers at best seems to me like taking a dollar for free, when you can do some work to get five instead with an offchance of not knowing where you're going and not arriving to claim it.
 
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Alectai said:
To be honest, the map was given to us by Xin, it's likely curated to some degree that things we find using it are probably not going to be worthless to us. Hell, the Standing Stones in itself saved us a crazy amount of AP and is giving a boost to our skills too.

After that, it's a matter of making the rolls--and that means there's about a 35% chance per roll of getting something useful based on how the last one went. We get two to three rolls per AP.

Like, if you consider it as a single AP gives a single roll, it's garbage. But we're getting more than that.

Exploration is probably one of the only avenues we have to gain further Advanced Insights and potentially potent Arts--and the latter is becoming increasingly important now that we're mastering our current core stuff, and we can't count on the Cai Archive to give us successors for everything. Discarding that in favor of... Another Archive 1 Art after they've been proven to be mediocre gap fillers at best seems to me like taking a dollar for free, when you can do some work to get five instead with an offchance of not knowing where you're going and not arriving to claim it.
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It seems like we only have a 58% chance of finding a site with 1 exploration AP, since having Shen Hu with us gave us a bonus roll for every AP used and an extra AP. It's less likely than last time that the sites we discover will be useful for us as well, since we're only currently interested in darkness or wind sites. It seems very unlikely that we'll get arts or insights through exploring unless we get a crit. I don't think any of our arts or insights have come through pure exploration.
 
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We get three rolls per AP of exploration.

One AP give use 1-0.65^3=72% chance of getting a site or better. A site can go from 0.10 to 0.25 AP per use (minor or major). Given how we lack both a darkness site and a wind one, and that we will have hundreds of AP spent on arts, it's very likely we will get our money back so to speak.

[X]Plan: Moon and Snakes

Moreover, if we want to train a fade stealth art DLS has a far better theme, and is vastly more consistent with our core art SCS.

yrsillar said:
Darting Labyrinth Shadow
In days far past there was once a bamboo grove sacred to the Grinning Moon, filled with laughing shadows that danced and darted under the pale moonlight. In that labyrinthine grove, an incautious person could be lost for years, grasping for a light that they would never reach. Though the grove is long gone, this art preserves the lessons once taught to those who aspire to the favor of the Grinning Moon
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