Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
This is basically a rich lawyer showing up to some college kids theater club and asking for us to add their kid to our final project. They show up talk to us for what, 5 minutes, and then give us nothing and ask for something. yeah no. If she was being sincere about it she would offer to a meeting with the three of us first. Instead it is straight to do this for me.
We are doing them a favor, and a big one. By joining closer to the Cai and getting on the ground floor of the negotiation they are strengthing the position of this internal fraction. It is a big deal to them, but they think we won't figure that out. Very rude.
- Location
- Finland
I think the idea that we would not be completely aware of that, probably never even entered their minds.
This is how the thing is done.
deadcrystal
Slaaneshi Cultist
- Location
- The Warp
Hadn't really seen this discussed, so I just wanted to point out Meng Diu's little test/inquiry here.
Whilst we haven't seen it discussed entirely explicitly, I think we've had enough hints that we can see that the Imperial Conservative position is that spirits are pokemon, resources to be captured and utilised. Spirits may receive supplication from Imperial Conservatives, but this is only part of a cost/benefit analysis, and is essentially the same as fertilising a field. Spirits are to be manipulated, captured, or excised, not treated as entities with agency.
The social default would be to consider Hanyi nothing but an extension of Ling Qi, and that Hanyi having resources outside of Ling Qi's control is something to be derided as it gives the false impression that Hanyi is allowed to make choices of her own recognisance.
I'd wager the Weilu Traditionalist position spins the other way, with Spirit Courts something to treat with, not to steamroll over.
This puts the Imperial Conservative position somewhat at odds with families of Great Spirit descent, as we've seen how Bai Meizhen considers Cui to be a cousin.
You're missing out on a lot of what is actually going on here.
Cai Renxiang is Her Dread Tyranny's Heir. By putting a Meng scion in CRX's orbit, it's establishing a relationship between clans as CRX begins to move out of the adolescent space (i.e. The Sect) and into being a political figure.
It also allows CRX to begin establishing what clan relations will be like going forward. We know that Cai Shenhua has acted as a reformer, ousting corruption and changing the way many institutions operate, and the Meng need to see how they're going to fit into the new shape of the Emerald Seas.
By going on this mission in particular, it allows the Meng, and by extension the Weilu political grouping to put forward a case for their role and use in the reformed Emerald Seas, and the value of their particular position.
I am pretty sceptical if accepting is such a good idea. The choices provided to us are also too unambiguous for my taste. I would like to answer with a non-answer like "I will relay your words to Lady Cai" and not make it clear which side we stand on. The decision if the boy will accompany us can be made later and with a lot more information.
If she pressures us for a clearer answer we can always say that we don't even know who she wants to send and simply accepting it would be careless or that this is a descision that can not be so easily made. We would be pretty reasonable and it is a lot better than a full rejection.
She basically insulted us with this proposal. It seems we have enough influence to pressure CRX but are not important enough to even know the name of before accepting to help the Meng. If we promise to work for them so willingly, it could weaken our position. It would look like we could be easily exploited.
To balance this vote a bit:
[x] Decline, you can't afford to involve internal politics in something as delicate as diplomacy with an unknown faction.
If she pressures us for a clearer answer we can always say that we don't even know who she wants to send and simply accepting it would be careless or that this is a descision that can not be so easily made. We would be pretty reasonable and it is a lot better than a full rejection.
She basically insulted us with this proposal. It seems we have enough influence to pressure CRX but are not important enough to even know the name of before accepting to help the Meng. If we promise to work for them so willingly, it could weaken our position. It would look like we could be easily exploited.
To balance this vote a bit:
[x] Decline, you can't afford to involve internal politics in something as delicate as diplomacy with an unknown faction.
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EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Insert Tally
I think the important distinction to make here is that Meng Diu's grandson isn't actually a person. Not in the context of the offer. He's her agent. His identity doesn't matter, not really, or not yet, because we're not being asked to advocate for him. We're being asked to enter into a relationship of trust with Meng Diu, contingent on the later performance of the agent she is lending to our liege's cause.
I agree in terms of Ling Qi's mindset, it's something that should put her ill at ease. She doesn't know this guy, and she does lean heavily into examining political ties in terms of personal relationships. But she's also starting to recognize the larger games that are played.
[X] Accept the offer, you can convince Renxiang and sponsorship from even a faction of a count house is a valuable thing.
- Location
- Athens, Greece
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Accept the offer, you can convince Renxiang and sponsorship from even a faction of a count house is a valuable thing.
I'm not sure how. The name really isn't relevant. In the end, this isn't about placing a specific person, but a faction of the Meng Clan wanting to build a closer relationship with the Ducal heir and her rising star retainer, Baroness Ling. Lady Meng has already given Ling Qi plenty of face by traveling from the capital to this small town to meet with us in person, so it's far from insulting.
- Location
- Colorado
Again, if we can snag Xuan Shi, I'm all for that. No need to sell me on it. But where does this idea that every person on this mission has to be a major noble come from? The official diplomat/head of mission is CRX, we are her second who will be doing most of the actual communicating, the Xia officer is head of security, if you're right about Xuan Shi he'll be a cultural advisor, and we don't actually know what the Meng kid brings to the table yet. That's more than enough VIPs, we need to fill out the body of the delegation.
My initial point was that we know so few people who are available that adding the Meng kid isn't taking a potential place from one of our friends, Alingge and Yu Nuan are pretty much the only two I can think of. Is Alingge's cultural group descended from the hill tribes? If so she's a good pick on her own merits, but I can't remember.
How would knowing his name be relevant to this decision?
Either we're willing to put trust in Meng Diu's judgement that he'd be useful or we're not; given we'd be just as clueless about Meng Whoever's capabilities if we were told the name...
Besides, giving us the kid's name is a weapon against the Meng, or at least the kid, should we refuse. No reason to demand they take that risk.
Anyone going on the mission is ticking off the Sect. Anyone who comes with us either needs their own pre-existing support base, or a guarantee of access to CRX's, lest the Sect take petty vengeance that would nevertheless have significant implications to their cultivation.
That narrows the set of options.
- Location
- United States of America
Meng Diu is basically asking us to say to CRX "no no dude trust me this guys cool Hes solid and hes cool" ...
Errr no, shes not.
Do you not know how favour trading works.
Shes literally asking us to pass down a name to crx to give a chance to interview off of meng dius merits/reputation. Becuase it's coming directly from us , crx is more likely to give them an interview/chance...
When I was a manager at a job ppl approached me that I knew all the time and asked to give X relative an interview.
- Location
- Finland
Yes, but also no.Meng Diu is basically asking us to say to CRX "no no dude trust me this guys cool Hes solid and hes cool" ...
They are asking us to say that "Meng Diu says this guy is cool, and we think we can/should trust her".
Maybe this is moving her into more of the public role but that is just an argument as to why we shouldn't do this. She was always going to enter the adult political spehere, she is the ducal heir. But she was going to do it when it suited the Cai and not the Meng. As for the allying with the Meng, if this fraction wants to ally themselves then they should be a bit more forward about it. They are trying to get someone into her inner circle without ever meeting and by using us but not even letting us know anything about him. Also, if that is what they are doing then we are doing them a favor by bringing him. What are they offering back? Seems like building this sort of alliance would be worth a lot.
Also, the convesation we can have with CRX about this now is basically:
LQ: So there is this meng guy we should bring.
CRX: Who is he?
LQ: idk, lol. Some grandkid of the diplomat
CRX: What is he good at
LQ: idk, diplomacy?
CRX: What is he like?
LQ: idk, lol
and so forth. But we will still convince crx of this somehow anyway I guess. Really my issue is that agreeing here feels very strange for LQ and not useful. Also, I think it is the meng treating LQ and her judgment very poorly. If anything we should be agreeing to meeting with him first.
- Location
- Finland
Or, we could not be stupid about it, and go
LQ: Meng Diu wants her nephew to join us, i think it would be a good way to make further ties to the Meng to agree to it.
CRX: Sounds good.
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
Ouch, that's harsh. What gives?
All the logistics are already handled. It's a Cai Shenhua sponsored diplomatic envoy. Any role that needs to be filled is already filled. For instance, we didn't need to make a translation technique because translation is already going to be handled through a specialist or talisman, more likely the latter.
Anyone we add is a matter of politics, or a specific viewpoint/image we want to project, not an issue of practicality or filling out the body of the delegation. Especially anyone our age/cultivation bracket only merits being there because of political connections.
To be frank, this Meng grandson has no real expectation to help make the delegation more successful. He has, like, four jobs. One, don't fuck up. Two, be a bug in the ear of Cai Renxiang and probably Ling Qi. Three, report back what happens on the trip to his grandmother. Four, broadly attempt to get along with or impress Cai Renxiang. Actually contributing to an international diplomatic meeting is way out of his pay grade. Even Ling Qi's role is likely to be pretty heavily curated/limited to breaking the ice.
The point of adding people to the delegation is mostly internal politics, which is the realm of higher nobility. It affects our presentation a little bit too, obviously, but we're not recruiting people for the skills, really.
Can't speak for their issues with him, but Luo has proven himself to be inconsiderate. When we attended his party, he spent the whole time tweaking things and putting us on the spot as some kind of elaborate test that also deliberately polarized our reception. This undermined our broad goal of engaging with our peers on a larger scale, and he acted like he was doing us a favor the whole time. He didn't act inappropriately, it was within his reasonable discretion to put us through the wringer, even though he was the one who invited us because of our recent notable achievements, but it's hard to say he wasn't wasting our time.
Then there's the whole thing with Bao Qingling. Despite her frequent objections and denials, he continues trying to convince her to marry him as part of a political gambit he's come up with.
He has an established habit of coming up with a brilliant idea but not considering how it intersects with the goals and motivations of other people. His social status and cultivation both prevent us from simply beating some sense into him, so there's not much we can do to remedy how not worth our time he is.
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- Location
- Finland
The guy we are being offered is irrelevant, they could give us a sack of rocks for all i care.
The point is that an envoy to the Duchesses court, came to to us, and asked for something.
Yes, it is not stated quite as blatantly, but this is us doing them a favor, and it is up to them to not fuck it up.
Also, unless i am off in a major way, this is not a retainer position, it is a purely temporary companion for one mission, with a recommendation from a major player in a count house, with the understanding that he is there to report on, and make friends with, CRX/LQ.
I'm honestly puzzled on why people are upset about this.
The point is that an envoy to the Duchesses court, came to to us, and asked for something.
Yes, it is not stated quite as blatantly, but this is us doing them a favor, and it is up to them to not fuck it up.
Also, unless i am off in a major way, this is not a retainer position, it is a purely temporary companion for one mission, with a recommendation from a major player in a count house, with the understanding that he is there to report on, and make friends with, CRX/LQ.
I'm honestly puzzled on why people are upset about this.
I think people have grown used to the way that, in the sect, Cai Renxiang and Ling Qi's circles have primarily been predicated on personal bonds. But they both need to start adapting the fact that in the larger world of Emerald Seas and Imperial politics they will have to work with and ally with people who aren't necessarily their friends and are going to have to open to a reasonable level of quid pro quo. And this isn't even that: this is an exchange in which both sides benefit:
Cai Renxiang and Ling Qi could both really use a closer relationship with upper level Emerald Seas nobility, and the Meng Clan sees them both as up and coming and worth being friends with early on. They might even want to marry one of their sons off to Ling Qi. The speed with which she's progressing through the Green realm is worth attention all on its own and they likely figure the House of Ling will end up higher than a barony.
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al103
Grumpy Russian Bear (SV edition)
- Location
- Russia, Krasnoyarsk
Oh, he's very very relevant. In judging Meng worth as a future partner both for us and for our liege. Meng also do understand this so they'll send "sack of rocks" only if they decided that Cai-jr is somebody they'll never have to deal with in the future. But in such case we unlikely to get offer in the first place.
No, he would be good. How good and what bad sides he would have are in the air. But "good" is default.
PS. And if Meng representative at the court work for somebody else and sabotages Meng... then Meng aren't worth to be dealing with in the future anyway.
PPS. It's not "let this guy go with us" vote. It's "is strengthening ties with Meng worth it right now" vote.
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Anyone else see similarities between Meng Diu and Meizhen's father? They both cultivate not being seen, though Lady Meng seems to cultivate ambiguity and secrecy whereas Hou Zhuang cultivate obscurity and being beneath notice. What if her grandson is the same?
[X] Accept the offer, you can convince Renxiang and sponsorship from even a faction of a count house is a valuable thing.
Imagine if we could arrange a marriage between him and Meizhen. For the same reason her spy father was married off to her spymistress mother the young Meng could be Hou Zhuang with a diplomatic bent the way Meizhen is her mother's more gracious successor. It'd ensure an alliance between the Meng and Bai and it'd be thematically appropriate for Meizhen to marry a similar man as the father she despises who doesn't have the flaw that made her hate him. It'd turn them into a power duo like Meizhen's parents, her the spymistress, him the courtier and leave us as our friends favorite infiltrator.