Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I don't think anyone thinks we're neglecting Zhen emotionally; it's just that Gui has the advantages cultivation-wise, so the wood side of things will advance faster than the fire all else being equal. That can't be fixed without deliberate effort to fix it.

1: Topic emotional neglect:
My initial argument was that I support the narrative of Verdant Duality, since it focuses on both parts of him (unlike the other two options).

The 'focus only on Gui status quo' (=continued neglect Zhen) idea was introduced by others to twist Verdant Duality into not actually representing both equally.
This post and this one were my attempts to explain why that is a bad argument, even if it were true. I'd be very happy to drop this entire neglect argumentation and go back to my initial argument.

2: Topic elemental balance:

I would like to see more supporting arguments for the claim that there exists an elemental unbalance between Zhen and Gui that needs to be fixed. What metric do you use to determine that it exists and how do you quantify it?
 
[X][Zhengui] Blazing Blood
[X][Hanyi] Lonely Winter Maiden

Gonna believe in Zhen that his techs will improve to be exceptional like Gui's rather than adequate like they are now.
 
I'm just putting this out here, what's the imbalance? Are we talking techs, cultivation, arts? The way I see it we have one art for Gui (mostly) and one tech for Zhen (mostly) and one for the entirety (mostly). There are overlaps and things that don't quite have to do with one side or the other in the art suites, like the stealth mode which involves both. But I'm not sure where people are getting that we aren't teaching both Gui and Zhen, considering the last thing we taught was actually to Zhen to try to make him anti air.
 
1: Topic emotional neglect:
My initial argument was that I support the narrative of Verdant Duality, since it focuses on both parts of him (unlike the other two options).

The 'focus only on Gui status quo' (=continued neglect Zhen) idea was introduced by others to twist Verdant Duality into not actually representing both equally.
This post and this one were my attempts to explain why that is a bad argument, even if it were true. I'd be very happy to drop this entire neglect argumentation and go back to my initial argument.

2: Topic elemental balance:

I would like to see more supporting arguments for the claim that there exists an elemental unbalance between Zhen and Gui that needs to be fixed. What metric do you use to determine that it exists and how do you quantify it?
I think these two topics are the same topic; the Blazing Blood faction thinks Zhen's development has been lagging behind Gui, not that we love turtle more than snek. So we want to actively give focus to snek instead of just pushing both equally. As for why we think that: because after Zhengui's breakthrough, Blooming from Ash gained two techs (Paradise Rampart, a B rank, and Paradise Bedrock, a C rank), whereas Blazing Blood got only one (Volcanic Shot, a B rank). This leaves Blooming from Ash with two B rank techs and Blazing Blood with only one. So, in both number and quality of techs, Blooming from Ash/wood/Gui has been growing faster than Blazing Blood/fire/Zhen. This isn't become we love Gui more, it's just a lot of factors coming together to give more training to that side of him: our Wood cultivation site but no Fire one, our own Wood arts but no Fire ones, and the fact that we use Zhengui in a tanky role more than we have him spitting fire.

Focusing on Blazing Blood seeks to correct that by giving deliberate focus to the side of Zhengui that is being underutilized/has less opportunity to grow. Without deliberate focus, the natural cultivation advantages that one side has over the other will continue to mount.
I'm just putting this out here, what's the imbalance? Are we talking techs, cultivation, arts? The way I see it we have one art for Gui (mostly) and one tech for Zhen (mostly) and one for the entirety (mostly). There are overlaps and things that don't quite have to do with one side or the other in the art suites, like the stealth mode which involves both. But I'm not sure where people are getting that we aren't teaching both Gui and Zhen, considering the last thing we taught was actually to Zhen to try to make him anti air.
I hope the above answers this question. As I point out, Zhengui gained three techs recently; two of them "Gui-side" and one of them "Zhen-side".
 
Last edited:
I'm just putting this out here, what's the imbalance? Are we talking techs, cultivation, arts? The way I see it we have one art for Gui (mostly) and one tech for Zhen (mostly) and one for the entirety (mostly). There are overlaps and things that don't quite have to do with one side or the other in the art suites, like the stealth mode which involves both. But I'm not sure where people are getting that we aren't teaching both Gui and Zhen, considering the last thing we taught was actually to Zhen to try to make him anti air.
Well, let's first look at Zhengui's insights:
E rank Health Regeneration
May use Stamina in Dispel Tests against physical arts and effects.
May use Stamina in Resist Tests
+10 to Physical Armor of Ling Qi and Hanyi when in the same scene
Grants one grade increase to allied Stamina tests in scene
Up to three times per scene, may change the target of a enemy spiritual effect to himself. This effect cannot be used on effects used by a cultivator more than two stages above Zhengui
May reduce his size by up to two thirds and remain combat capable. All damage dealing techniques scaled down while reduced in size. (Max one rank at full reduction)
Of those, the size reduction might be Verdant, as could the spirit tanking... but the rest are clearly 'Ash Blooming'. None of the insights seems likely to come from Boiling Blood.

Now, Zhengui's techs are also significantly unbalanced: Boiling Blood is more similar to what Ashing Bloom was before he got to G2. E.G, it has one B tech, 3 C techs and 2 D techs. At the time, Zhengui had similar-ish level of techs for Ash Blooming (it had one less tech, but that's because it had merged two). Now, it has merged two techs again in blooming ash, and not only has 2 B rank techs there but all the other techs are very polished.

What I expect by training Boiling Blood is a similar effect: 2 techs would merge into a more polished C ranked tech, and he would gain a completely new B rank one. It's only at that point that both his Zhen and Gui side would be more 'balanced', to me.
 
[X][Zhengui] Blazing Blood
[X][Hanyi] Lonely Winter Maiden


All 3 are fine for Zhengui since he's fairly well rounded, each option has its obvious immediate benefits but we don't know for sure which would be most relevant or how fast he'll get to develop the others. Imo defense or attack should be picked over meta for Zhengui atm; duality is strongest long term (probably) but it needs a solid base to build on top of.

Blazing blood works just fine since Ashfield and the longer range stuff are gonna be pretty relevant.

For Hanyi LWM is a no-brainer; gets it to a usable level hopefully and gives her something uniquely strong to do. Defense/mobility are fine working with us/Zhengui, and the FSS equivalent will likely see major development when we'll be working on FSS+ (assuming that plan survives the next few turns).
 
I think these two topics are the same topic; the Blazing Blood faction thinks Zhen's development has been lagging behind Gui, not that we love turtle more than snek. So we want to actively give focus to snek instead of just pushing both equally. As for why we think that: because after Zhengui's breakthrough, Blooming from Ash gained two techs (Paradise Rampart, a B rank, and Paradise Bedrock, a C rank), whereas Blazing Blood got only one (Volcanic Shot, a B rank). This leaves Blooming from Ash with two B rank techs and Blazing Blood with only one. So, in both number and quality of techs, Blooming from Ash/wood/Gui has been growing faster than Blazing Blood/fire/Zhen. This isn't become we love Gui more, it's just a lot of factors coming together to give more training to that side of him: our Wood cultivation site but no Fire one, our own Wood arts but no Fire ones, and the fact that we use Zhengui in a tanky role more than we have him spitting fire.

Focusing on Blazing Blood seeks to correct that by giving deliberate focus to the side of Zhengui that is being underutilized/has less opportunity to grow. Without deliberate focus, the natural cultivation advantages that one side has over the other will continue to mount.

I hope the above answers this question. As I point out, Zhengui gained three techs recently; two of them "Gui-side" and one of them "Zhen-side".


Your first sentence confuses me. Does it mean that you actually insist on continuing the emotional neglect argument? Or do you want to argue that Verdant Duality does not inherently represent Zhengui as a whole? Or do you argue that 'elemental unbalance' = emotional neglect ?


I think that the term 'elemental unbalance' is poorly chosen. Zhengui is a spirit beast, his elements dont change that easily.
What you do mean is that Burning Blood is the currently the weakest of Zhengui's abilities and needs a buff more than the other two. Burning Blood still has more techs than Blooming from Ash or Verdant Duality, but 4 out of 6 of those techs are just different versions of 'deal X damage over Y distance'. Those techs also have the problem of not being very cool (3 projectile shooting techs and one bite is just boring), so Zhen cant get much screentime in epic fight scenes.

Those are perfectly fine arguments for Burning Blood, they just dont have anything to do with (elemental/emotional) balance. Balance is the argument for Verdant Duality, while 'yrs, please give Zhen cooler techs' is the reason to vote Burning Blood.
 
Well, let's first look at Zhengui's insights:

Of those, the size reduction might be Verdant, as could the spirit tanking... but the rest are clearly 'Ash Blooming'. None of the insights seems likely to come from Boiling Blood.

Now, Zhengui's techs are also significantly unbalanced: Boiling Blood is more similar to what Ashing Bloom was before he got to G2. E.G, it has one B tech, 3 C techs and 2 D techs. At the time, Zhengui had similar-ish level of techs for Ash Blooming (it had one less tech, but that's because it had merged two). Now, it has merged two techs again in blooming ash, and not only has 2 B rank techs there but all the other techs are very polished.

What I expect by training Boiling Blood is a similar effect: 2 techs would merge into a more polished C ranked tech, and he would gain a completely new B rank one. It's only at that point that both his Zhen and Gui side would be more 'balanced', to me.

Not quite buying this. I almost feel pedantic right now but I am just going to put this page. For one, I think you are interpreting Zhengui's way and what he is the wrong way. For one, Zhen and Gui do not have different techs. They are the same being with two separate minds, but they are not different creatures. He is one creature. Then is the fact that this way came from Zhengui making his mind to support us and keep up. This way is meant to protect Qi and help as much as possible, and a way almost completely focused on tanking/healing/ and taking aggro (or close enough) makes a huge amount of sense. His cultivation is similar, but how it works and relates to his way is not the same as ours. Again, these "arts" are somewhat intresnic to his being, we have seen no indication that he can learn others except by his own invention. They are not truly separate, and even the techs show this. Almost every tech is "Zhengui" not Zhen or Gui. And actually, the ones that do not say that are only Zhen in Boiling Blood. Ash Blooming only says Zhengui. More than that, Ash Blooming has things like Qi's stealth technique, which I could make the argument to have nothing to do with the so called Gut side.

How I end up looking at it is that one is focused more on growth, the other on destruction, and the last has both and a seeming increase in potency. The growth one is more polished, with less techniques and even one that does not quite relate. While destruction has many attacks and is also the one most likely to have a lot of work put into in the coming days. I can picture "Zhen's" abilities and techs evolving more often in the coming war than "Gui's" would have the chance to. The other relates to his unique nature as both growth and destruction, with seemingly less chances to directly improve as I do not think we have gained a new Tech there yet.
 
I can picture "Zhen's" abilities and techs evolving more often in the coming war than "Gui's" would have the chance to.
You would think so, but it's dependable on his objective's, this turn it was - 'protect the village', his arts was insufficient to that, so he evolved them, the that protect, on the other hand with Lan Lan and her spirit nearby he had enough firepower and didn't have desperate need to upgrade his projectile attacks, so he didn't get them. And now his Way is screaming -"'I will protect my big sis and Hanyi", that means BFM and VAD, not BB.
 
To circle back to the Cultivation problems we're having, I think most agree that the snarl is coming from a desire to endlessly go forward, while listening to family, while having them not get left behind.

Teacher has been suggested, and I like that. But it's not the only thing, because if we teach others too much and neglect ourselves we'll never find the new heights to help belay the others up to. Someone in the Belay reaches the top first, and helps pull the rest up. In my opinion we will have to find a way to either do these two things simultaneously, or do them alternatingly. I'm open to suggestions.

we are out of balance right now. We just had a very intense stakes-raising sequence of events that could derail short-term thoughts of Dreams and Art for Art's sake. Throwing them on the altar of War and Raw Direct Power, even for a short time . . . we should consider how Six feels. We know that cultivators get a warped sense of time as they progress, so saying that there is no time for dreams and art sometimes is . . . not comforting to the muse of Dreams and Art. Especially because they're confined to our dantian. With Six, we can see a microcosm of what I believe to be the snarl. It's not actually the insights at conflict, it's our Way. Yes, this sounds like a dumb redundant statement, but hear me out for a bit.

There are clearly some things about us that don't change regardless of what we're doing. We, of course, will pick up tools and patches where and when needed but these things are simply true about us.
1. We move. We move forward. Anything perceived as standing still is literally death, so even our standing still must be moving forward.
2. We care. We care deeply, and strongly, and if something is attempting to hurt our connections we will move to protect even if it'd be easier to flow around or lose the tie.
3. We're honest. We hate deception and illusion (having had many bad experiences with it in our formative years) and chose to cut out even our self-delusions. We prefer honest work to get to the top than cheating-grease and lies that smooth the journey.
4. We're greedy. When confronted with choices that tell us to pick one, we try to grab as many as we can and simply shoulder the burden of that choice. This includes "your family might have opinions differing from yours which will be an obstacle to your self-improvement". A response to that specific quote would be "self-improvement that would cost my family anything, when I could shoulder the load instead, is not worth doing."

Let me ask then, if these next statements are true:
5. We are curious. Even if it has an opportunity cost now, we still would prefer being tight on budget than low on information. Even if that budget is "health" and the knowledge is "could this assassin's alphastrike kill someone that wasn't me"
6. We are a dreamer. Even when cultivating with capital E the End, we derive hope and forward looking ideas. Even in the darkest of scenarios we attempt to spin beauty anyway. Do we make time for Art for the sake of Art even in times of trouble and hardship? Do we seek new paths and new ways to express what we feel and know?

in my opinion, these statements *should* be true but we haven't quite been acting these out. For example, if 5 were true we would have pursued the barbarians after they failed to find us with our new Fade tech. If 6 were true we wouldn't have been neglecting Six as well as *every* art related hook for the past however-many-updates. I know Art of War exists but come on, finding that from the War side and not the Art side isn't very Dreamer of us xD

What I'm trying to say, is that we have many tools and abilities to live our Grin side. We need to focus on what our Secrets and Dreams mean to us and better live those out too. Not only in moments, not only when we're safe, but as permanent facets of self. We should make promises as deeply committed to Zhengui and Hanyi to our patrons Secret Moon and Dreaming Moon. Grinning is currently the only one that is expressed at all times, with enough arguments for Dream and Secret that they didn't reject our idea at triple-patronage. However, I think that thinking of it in terms of "there's conflict between going forward and not abandoning family" is a little reductive. This is a magical world and we could simply do both if given the right path (assuming that it doesn't conflict with a fundamental law in setting) and enough power. I believe the conflict in our Way is that we Live Grinning and Greedy at all times but we don't seem to be vigorously pursuing Art for Art's sake nor Knowledge for Knowledge's sake. Let's put a little faith in our patrons just like we're putting faith in our spirits Hanyi and Zhengui. We won't let them fall behind just because they're our little siblings! Our patrons won't leave us behind just because we're a small mortal! Heck, they literally have gifted us pills in the past! Who needs to play pill gacha when you can pray and worship and grow through study and living both! With a lil bit of faith we could absolutely *wreck* the current math equations denying our free expression of exploration and art and knowledge-seeking.

let's go make art for art's sake, that will do Six some good. Let's learn for learning's sake, and talk long with Six to make plans to later teach the "kids". Let's seek songs of truth both emotional and technical, and perform them with a grin and a nod to the goddesses that got us here.
 
Well, this is a nice snarl to walk right into. I agree with the people voting for the duality focus, though, at the moment.

Also, teaching is exactly the sort of thing I think might help resolve the conflict in our Way a bit? It feels right.

But yeah, we really, really have neglected Sixiang here and that needs fixing.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Dec 8, 2019 at 4:43 PM, finished with 250 posts and 81 votes.
 
Well, this is a nice snarl to walk right into. I agree with the people voting for the duality focus, though, at the moment.

Also, teaching is exactly the sort of thing I think might help resolve the conflict in our Way a bit? It feels right.

But yeah, we really, really have neglected Sixiang here and that needs fixing.
absolutely! It's the kind of thing that I think would get all four of us (maybe 5 or 6 if we count our blood family) interacting and bouncing off of eachother. Teaching is the best way to learn (after a base knowledge is reached) after all! And we definitely don't treat Six like the peer in terms of age/maturity that they are. We're mostly just saddling them with burdens because it's refreshing to have someone with us that we can trust so totally and completely to be with us no matter what.

And also: like I wrote in the effort post I do think that the idea that "sometimes there's no time for curiosity or art" is what is really and truly grinding the relationship to dust. Cultivators get a really weird sense of time as they grow, and "sometimes" becomes "lifetimes" and seriously why should Six put up with 50 years of "this is winter and there's no joyous expression or learning, outside of what converts to damage" just for the end goal of "eventually you'll enjoy existing again".

We should learn that although the journey may be perilous and hard there is still time for life even in the depths of winter. The utilizing of every available "power" to the cause of force and violence is a very yang and misguided way to try to live. Putting up with misery for eventual glory, unbalanced by a concern for the present, is an easy way to be perpetually forced to grind miserable work. We have to reject this. We literally have three patron goddesses. If we put faith in them and live divinely I bet we'll make even more progress than the "optimal" routing of the rational and known world. One of them is Dreams and one is Secrets and one is Literally Greedily Snatching Tons of power we may or may not have been "entitled" to naturally haha. We got this.
 
And also: like I wrote in the effort post I do think that the idea that "sometimes there's no time for curiosity or art" is what is really and truly grinding the relationship to dust. Cultivators get a really weird sense of time as they grow, and "sometimes" becomes "lifetimes" and seriously why should Six put up with 50 years of "this is winter and there's no joyous expression or learning, outside of what converts to damage" just for the end goal of "eventually you'll enjoy existing again".

We should learn that although the journey may be perilous and hard there is still time for life even in the depths of winter. The utilizing of every available "power" to the cause of force and violence is a very yang and misguided way to try to live. Putting up with misery for eventual glory, unbalanced by a concern for the present, is an easy way to be perpetually forced to grind miserable work. We have to reject this. We literally have three patron goddesses. If we put faith in them and live divinely I bet we'll make even more progress than the "optimal" routing of the rational and known world. One of them is Dreams and one is Secrets and one is Literally Greedily Snatching Tons of power we may or may not have been "entitled" to naturally haha. We got this.


Hmm that would be very interesting. Having life in between our cycles of ends and the "long, lonely, hard path" would be a very interesting branch. It would actually solve most domain problems I think. Like I am not sure we will get that, from teaching or anything else though I definitely support anything we would get there.

Something like "without taking the time to build the home, all is meaningless. Grow it over time, bear its weight, and take what lessons present in the process." Or something, maybe not exactly that.
 
Hmm that would be very interesting. Having life in between our cycles of ends and the "long, lonely, hard path" would be a very interesting branch. It would actually solve most domain problems I think. Like I am not sure we will get that, from teaching or anything else though I definitely support anything we would get there.

Something like "without taking the time to build the home, all is meaningless. Grow it over time, bear its weight, and take what lessons present in the process." Or something, maybe not exactly that.
right! If we don't carry spring with us we will forget how to grow when the winter passes. If we forget to live we might only survive
 
So if a cultivator can function with conflicting insights so long as they don't encounter said conflict, does that mean hermits are potentially glass powerhouses?

Since they don't interact with greater society and spend their time in solitude they are less likely to be exposed to feedback that would challenge their insights?
Naw, remember you get insights from your experiences. A dedicated hermit's growth revolves around the following:
-The insights must not motivate them to take action. Insights associated with ties to anything external will force them out of hermitage eventually.

-The insights will revolve around recursive philosophy. Something deeply profound in order to overcome the limitations of not being physically challenged and confronted, they must consider their own insights, challenge them and overcome their own challenges.

A Green hermit might be vulnerable to their entire nature being thrown out of sorts by an unexpected revelation.
A Cyan hermit probably had already started on the path of no longer being able to perceive there being a conflict anymore.

It does mean that soliphistic, selfish insights are probably the least likely to conflict with anything internally however. Instead those are going to conflict externally because an insight built around "fuck you, got mine" concepts can't accrue more political power than personal power, and either they go into irrelevant seclusion or they step on one too many toes and a coalition forms against them.
 
[X][Zhengui] Verdant Ash Duality
[X][Hanyi] Fleeting Spring's Chill

Apparently I havent voted yet? I could have sworn I already did though.
 
Back
Top