There is no emotion... (A Jedi Order Quest)
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Voikirium
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I will say, how should I put this?
You can't use two doctrines at the same time, because there is more to it than just ideas-- but you can research both, to get a better idea of what they'll do, if that makes sense? Like, the Council might theoretically create a plan for how to train multiple students, and a plan for singular students, and then follow through with the multiple student plan-- but they'll know how for multiple students, and can examine the benefits and drawbacks of both.
Ok that's what I thought would happen but when you said we could only have 1 of them I was thinking we wouldn't get any benefits. Because researching both is good because we would know both properly so our council would know the beniefts and drawbacks and not just do it because that was the only way they knew. Also mechanic wise Im assuming its like You have both unlocked but only one can be active at a time.
So imma switch my vote back to getting both of the doctrines researched so we know them. Sorry for changing my vote then changing it back, but i thought you meant we cant research both until you clarified it as you cant have both active at the same time.
[X] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
Okay, so, to clarify: we can research both 'One Student' and 'Many Students', though we will have to pick one after research is completed, and we'd only receive the benefits from one doctrine? Is there any concrete benefit to studying both? Does researching 'theoretical plans' give us long-term flexibility, or just give us more information to make the (same) decision after we finish researching?
I'd prefer a Jedi Order where the default expectation was for masters to have multiple students (and ideally, students to have multiple masters, so they can learn from specialists as needed) but at the same time, I'd also like our Jedi Order to have the flexibility so that if a master and student have a strong preference (or, you know, a Force Bond) they could team up as in the prequel trilogy without breaking some inflexible tradition.
But if researching both options would just flesh out what 'more recruitment' means or what 'higher-quality students' means, then that information is low-value and not worth spending points on at this point. Better to research things we'll actually be able to use.
Voikirium
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Mostly just greater information for choice, what the exact mechanical benefits through the next few tiers of research would be.
Okay, so, to clarify: we can research both 'One Student' and 'Many Students', though we will have to pick one after research is completed, and we'd only receive the benefits from one doctrine? Is there any concrete benefit to studying both? Does researching 'theoretical plans' give us long-term flexibility, or just give us more information to make the (same) decision after we finish researching?
I'd prefer a Jedi Order where the default expectation was for masters to have multiple students (and ideally, students to have multiple masters, so they can learn from specialists as needed) but at the same time, I'd also like our Jedi Order to have the flexibility so that if a master and student have a strong preference (or, you know, a Force Bond) they could team up as in the prequel trilogy without breaking some inflexible tradition.
But if researching both options would just flesh out what 'more recruitment' means or what 'higher-quality students' means, then that information is low-value and not worth spending points on at this point. Better to research things we'll actually be able to use.
I will say, it is decidedly easier for Jedi in the "Many Students" doctrine to have just one student than vice versa.
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I think the thing that's bothering me is that the bonuses offered by the teaching techs don't actually have anything to do with the development of initiates, just with the finding of them. Why would a multi-student model make more students likely to sign up? Why would an apprenticeship model result in finding higher quality initiates?
I'll defer to @Publicola on the merits of either model, I'm not terribly familiar with the lore. But maybe we could make the two techs tier 1 recruitment techs alongside Recruitment, and only one of the two bonuses can be taken.
Because I'd rather have higher quality initiates than quantity, but I'd like to go with a multi-student model when we have them.
I'll defer to @Publicola on the merits of either model, I'm not terribly familiar with the lore. But maybe we could make the two techs tier 1 recruitment techs alongside Recruitment, and only one of the two bonuses can be taken.
Because I'd rather have higher quality initiates than quantity, but I'd like to go with a multi-student model when we have them.
Voikirium
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Your Jedi can teach more students, allowing you to recruit more people (and also implicitly lower your standards a little, not like a super noticeable amount, but for instance, Scout would be just low tier, instead of absolute bottom of the barrel) instead of turning them away for lack of educators.
A single Master can focus more on one student, allowing them to tailor individual lessons to draw out more of their potential, instead of having to create a lesson that both the Rosh Penins and Jaiden Korrs of the galaxy can complete.
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Alright, so to clarify then - "Bonus to recruitment quantity" just means "You are eventually able to take more students due to ratios", but provides no bonus to locate said students?
Also, when do the "Bonus stats for new student" apply - at Initiate or Padawan rank?
Voikirium
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It will eventually provide bonuses to locating students, for any number of reasons which I will explain if you choose it, but at the most basic level, yes, the bonus is, essentially, "we recruit more Jedi because every master is personally teaching like, six students."
Bonus applies at Padawan-- Initiates don't have stats. The only reason they are out in the field is because you don't have a training doctrine more advanced yet than "See what I do, then do that."
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Ok, got it, thanks for elaborating. I'd missed that about initiates not having stats.
Urrrgh, makes it a difficult choice, but in addition to the lore reasons we really just need to grow faster.
[X] Plan Many Low Hanging Fruit
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Mistakes happen.
Editing my plan.
The 5 freed up points along with the 6 in Ossus mean that we can get Form 7 in one turn, so I did that.
I did not actually notice that the one student option was picked over the many students one, what the hell. We are rebuilding the entire order, we need rapid growth by far the most. We can change doctrines once we are no longer less than a dozen dudes and dudettes trying to cover the entire friggin galaxy.
I strongly disagree with last years research turn, both splitting research and investing in this tech first, even if they were not exclusive.
[X] Plan Many Low Hanging Fruit
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The Englanderish
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I do not see the point in wasting away the 2 points we already spent on the other doctrine. They're mutually exclusive and we already had one vote on the matter. Why is everyone suddenly u-turning?
The Englanderish
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As a more proper counterargument (and subsequently an argument for the original Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus sine mine can't win at this point), I will first reiterate my argument for the original vote several updates back.
While we do need more Jedi, it simply won't be fair to divide needed student attention amongst a master - each of the masters available will have a lot of shit to deal with on top of just one padawan. Stretching too thin might get more bodies through the door, but will make for a poor foundation. Padawans will be in our care - they will trust in us not to poorly equip them. Meetra was a unique case where there were next to no other options at all, and the extinction crisis was imminent. We now have the space to do things properly, so we should.
I am now going to further expand on each of the basic points.
Firstly, the students we take on - their lives will be in our hands, they are placing their trust in us to not lead them astray. They need one-to-one attention, and if they don't get it then the bedrock of the new Order will be far less skilled and far more susceptible to Dark Side woes. We may have more Jedi, but we will have a higher body count, we could end up cranking out Dark Jedi in exactly the same way Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma were missed because they did not get the individual tuition they needed - it was split amongst many. Failing our new students in such a way isn't something we can just let happen for pure numbers' sake.
Secondly, our masters - we only have two people in the entire Order who have been Jedi for more than a year. Asking the majority of our Jedi to take on multiple students on top of all the spinning plate they already have to deal with isn't fair on them, and strains their capabilities even more. There is only so far one can push people, especially when their experience is so limited. If Bao-Dur was taking on engineering students, sure. But he's only been a Jedi for a year. Meetra may've ost her connection, but she still had all those years of training and knowledge. We mostly don't have that - and even Bastilla and Juhani spent most of their career as Padawans. Maybe in ten or twenty years, it could be feasible, but now it is unlikely they will be able to manage all that.
And thirdly, the immediate extinction crisis is over. Maybe there will be a new looming threat coming, yes, but it is not on our doorstep rght now. We should use this time to create as robust a crop of Jedi as possible, not just throw numbers at it like a Sith general.
This is the foundation of what will be the new Jedi Order. If it is weak, and stretched thin, it will crack and crumble down the line. So make it firm and only then make it big.
While we do need more Jedi, it simply won't be fair to divide needed student attention amongst a master - each of the masters available will have a lot of shit to deal with on top of just one padawan. Stretching too thin might get more bodies through the door, but will make for a poor foundation. Padawans will be in our care - they will trust in us not to poorly equip them. Meetra was a unique case where there were next to no other options at all, and the extinction crisis was imminent. We now have the space to do things properly, so we should.
I am now going to further expand on each of the basic points.
Firstly, the students we take on - their lives will be in our hands, they are placing their trust in us to not lead them astray. They need one-to-one attention, and if they don't get it then the bedrock of the new Order will be far less skilled and far more susceptible to Dark Side woes. We may have more Jedi, but we will have a higher body count, we could end up cranking out Dark Jedi in exactly the same way Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma were missed because they did not get the individual tuition they needed - it was split amongst many. Failing our new students in such a way isn't something we can just let happen for pure numbers' sake.
Secondly, our masters - we only have two people in the entire Order who have been Jedi for more than a year. Asking the majority of our Jedi to take on multiple students on top of all the spinning plate they already have to deal with isn't fair on them, and strains their capabilities even more. There is only so far one can push people, especially when their experience is so limited. If Bao-Dur was taking on engineering students, sure. But he's only been a Jedi for a year. Meetra may've ost her connection, but she still had all those years of training and knowledge. We mostly don't have that - and even Bastilla and Juhani spent most of their career as Padawans. Maybe in ten or twenty years, it could be feasible, but now it is unlikely they will be able to manage all that.
And thirdly, the immediate extinction crisis is over. Maybe there will be a new looming threat coming, yes, but it is not on our doorstep rght now. We should use this time to create as robust a crop of Jedi as possible, not just throw numbers at it like a Sith general.
This is the foundation of what will be the new Jedi Order. If it is weak, and stretched thin, it will crack and crumble down the line. So make it firm and only then make it big.
The Englanderish
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Why? There is no immediate threat to the stability of the galaxy, the Republic, or the Order - nothing akin to Nihilus and Sion's shadow campaign. The true Sith presumably will be, eventually. But I'd rather have good Jedi ready to face them than dilute, half-baked Jedi with a bunch of Exar Kun style offshoot Darksiders, overstretched Masters, and too many KIA students. There isn't actually a reason to rush, and fucking about with the quality of the Order's new generation is hardly warranted for a galaxy that's more stable than it's been for over ten years.
Random Member
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I'm usually one for Quantity over Quality.... but that mentality doesn't fit Jedi at all.
[X] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
[X] Plan Low Hanging Fruit and Ossus
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
The more Jedi we have, the more initiates we get (greater coverage so more events), and the more teachers to teach them. Exponential growth. The difference in our numbers in time between those two approaches should be order of magnitude.
There will be diminishing returns in time of course, such as when when most force sensitives that did not receive training because of the recent troubles are recruited we have to find new recruitment grounds or do with the number of force sensitives that are born per year in our area of influence. Once that happens, I fully support switching to quality over quantity, but we do not have the teachers right now. Not even if every single of our Jedi retired and only taught without any missions whatsoever. And the galaxy needs fifty mediocre Jedies more than ten good ones, it's a big place and a Jedi can only be in one place at once.
We are far too few at this time to afford one on one teaching. See what Luke Skywalker did after the movies (not the Disney ones).
There will be diminishing returns in time of course, such as when when most force sensitives that did not receive training because of the recent troubles are recruited we have to find new recruitment grounds or do with the number of force sensitives that are born per year in our area of influence. Once that happens, I fully support switching to quality over quantity, but we do not have the teachers right now. Not even if every single of our Jedi retired and only taught without any missions whatsoever. And the galaxy needs fifty mediocre Jedies more than ten good ones, it's a big place and a Jedi can only be in one place at once.
We are far too few at this time to afford one on one teaching. See what Luke Skywalker did after the movies (not the Disney ones).
The Englanderish
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Luke was existing in an entirely different environment with an entirely different state of the galaxy. Luke's Jedi were brought up in a galaxy where the New Republic and Imperial remnant's bajillion splinter factions were still going at it - and they had far less to go on to build their order than we do. To say nothing of the fact that many student did cause a lot of problems because of students not having their needs met. If we follow this doctrine, we may have more Jedi, but they will most likely be significantly less good than they could be - and that will be our foundation: substandard Jedi. Switching doctrines then won't matter because our foundation will already be lacklustre. It'll stagnate the Order's ability to be Jedi and not just randos with lightsabers and half-formed ideas. And in a galaxy that's only 40-50 years on from the Exar Kun uprising which was spawned in no small part thanks to Padawans not having the attention and time they needed given to them, this seems like an at-best dangerous attitude. Kun's fall came about when the Jedi were following this doctrine on their very best day. We are not even close to our very best day.
In short: Do you want Exar Kun? This is how you get Exar Kun.
The Englanderish
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Probably not, no, but we do want to try and make the best Order we can. We probably won't be inundated with dark Jedi, but we'll lose more students than necessary to death, Dark Side, or bad decisions because they won't get the growth they need - and it puts a lot of strain on masters who've almost all only been Jedi for a year or two and are also trying to help out in all sorts of other things.
I'll also add, that from an in-character perspective as Bao-Dur and the others, the most familiar we'll be with multi-master training will be the relatively recent Exar Kun debacle, up until then it being standard practice - and the one master one pupil thing was a new reform to come out of that before the one-two punch of Revan/Malak, followed up by the Triumvirate kinda killed it in the cradle.
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Only to increase numbers in the early stages.
Surely this means we can switch to the 'One Student' doctrine later once we have a larger number of knights to take on individual Padawan's. I mean that's how things go when organisations grow multiple things things are tried and things change due to current needs.
It's not like we are the Prequel Jedi Council with a bunch of 'Old guard' Masters who are set in their ways and refusing to adapt.
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The Englanderish
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The problem is that the worse our starting crop of Jedi produced, the more that'll carry over to if we do switch to only having 1:1. Reverse dilution is an absolute pain, and I doubt it would work very well.
Voikirium
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Ah, well. Or Meetra training all of you.
