No, the matter was that Magnus was such a fucking Witch that nobody wanted to fight alongside him or anyone he trained. Which caused massive disruptions to the Great Crusade with the whole Legions refusing to cooperate with each other. It was either side with the Psyker or the Anti-Psykers, and Magnus ruined any chance for the Psyker faction with his blatant Witchery.
Ok for a start witchery was psykery for the anti psyker primarchs, they made no real distinctions between the two and for that matter neither did Magnus.
To many of the Primarchs like Mortarion all Psykery was sorcery, to Magnus sorcery was a word used by superstitious idiots like Russ to justify their paranoia.
This supreme lack of definition is one of the biggest problems of the council since as far as I understand most librarians outside of the sons were like the librarians of the modern day using psycic abilities to help their legions out while the sons were the only ones with the abilities to do rituals and stuff.
This is reflected in how the council ended with Emps banning astartes from using psycic powers of any kind.
This may have been his way of getting at Russ since Russ was also using psycic powers and chose to just ignore it, but hey ho.
In fairness to Magnus though...well was there any reason for him to stop using the sorcery? It did work after all. He had no reason to assume that it would stop being effective and reducing casualties. This of course inflated his opinion of himself and it which was extremely bad and he didn't have perfect information which is why when the council came around...well it was extremely discord promoting rather than unifying.
I wish you lot would actually read "A Thousand Sons". Magnus had a vision about Horus' fall to Chaos on Nikaea, a vision that he didn't relay to the Emperor. Instead, Magnus fucked around for weeks to months researching Human Sacrifice Rituals.
A. Emps would have totally listened to him 100%.
B. That's not a vision. He didn't see Horus's fall he saw a daemon pretending to be Horus, that's what that passage is talking about and Magnus is understandably a wee bit cautious about that as an iron clad proof. It's not exactly the first time a daemon's done that as a tactic to scare him another showed him a vision of Prospero burning, but Magnus rejected that because he denied the idea of Russ ever doing such a thing.
At the time of Nikea that idea of Horus of all people falling to chaos was reasonably considered stupid, and it was seeing what it required to happen.
His later vision which convinced him this would happen was a traditional vision, where he watched Horus get stabbed by the Anathama and fall.
Also please cite him researching human sacrifice rituals, since I can't find that no matter how hard I search.
"Wards that had kept the palace safe for a hundred years were obliterated in an instant, and the psychic shockwave killed thousands and drove hundreds more to madness and suicide."
When was it ever revealed that Land has great knowledge of the butcher's nails? He's a very knowledgeable tech priest I'll give you that, but about the nails specifically a highly advanced piece of archeotech seemingly unique to Nurcia and about Primarch biology a subject exclusive to Emps and the interactions of the two I think not.
I'm not confident Emps couldn't remove them if he really wanted to, similar to how he could have certainly gone down there with his army of Golden Men and killed the slave lords alongside Angron earning his eternal loyalty instead of being a dick and teleporting him into orbit while allowing the Slavelords to continue running an entire planet with bloodfilled arenas. That they're constantly set up in forms of 8 having no reference to a certain blood god whatso ever.
It fucking ticks me off that people can unironically or unsatiricaly say that "Magnus did nothing wrong" when he did EVERYTHING wrong and instead ascribe blame to the Emperor.
I used to unironically and unsatirically say that Russ was the cause of all this crap, so I've not got better legs to stand on.
I'd say I've a low simmering distaste for both primarchs for being idiots at least pre burning.
Afterwards well I gotta say I grew to like Russ for his personal journey to not being an asshat and Magnus's shattering was used very well and let us examine him in greater detail.
Sorry, Vostroya already took that theme, don't want to steal their thunder.
EDIT:
'Sides, while the Imperium officially calls the planet Valhalla, the natives would likely have another name (like Sangsa/Saensayeon) a la Mundus Planus/Chogoris.
Yeah for all that the Imperium's meant to be all the different people's of man kind there seems to be an excess of pasty white people from that bit around western Europe.
I'd call it eurocenterism, but its more british centrism.
No, that wasn't any kind of God. Russ just dived into a localized Warp Rift and underwent a Spirit Quest about himself. There were no damn Gods in that.
Fenris doesn't have any actual Gods or spirits. There's just the World Spirit.
Ok for a start witchery was psykery for the anti psyker primarchs, they made no real distinctions between the two and for that matter neither did Magnus.
Everyone though that psychic powers destroyed the last Human Galactic Polity, which it did in a way.
"Psychic powers came with dark heritage, for the Great Crusade was rebuilding the lost empire of humanity from the wreckage left after Old Night, a cataclysm brought about, it was claimed, by the uncontrolled emergence of psykers all across the galaxy. As much as Magnus and his compatriots vouchsafed the integrity of the Librarians, they would always bear the stigma of those who had brought humanity to the edge of extinction."
That's enough reason to work against the Librarius project.
In fairness to Magnus though...well was there any reason for him to stop using the sorcery? It did work after all. He had no reason to assume that it would stop being effective and reducing casualties. This of course inflated his opinion of himself and it which was extremely bad and he didn't have perfect information which is why when the council came around...well it was extremely discord promoting rather than unifying.
The Emperor directly told Magnus that if he fucks with Sorcery again, there would be consequences. That was all the reason needed to stop with Sorcery. Considering the Emperor didn't even appoint Custodian watch to stop Magnus from using psychic powers.
The Emperor's sword was drawn, and his gaze locked with that of Magnus, as though they engaged in silent communion unheard by any others. Ahriman tore his gaze from the Emperor and saw that Magnus was pinned to his seat, his body rigid and his skin pale. His eye was tightly closed, and Ahriman saw an almost imperceptible tremor in his flesh, as though powerful currents of electricity were tearing through him.
If I am guilty of anything, it is the pursuit of knowledge," hissed Magnus through clenched teeth. "I am its master, I swear it."
The Emperor wasn't finished, and thunder rolled in his voice.
"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
A. Emps would have totally listened to him 100%.
B. That's not a vision. He didn't see Horus's fall he saw a daemon pretending to be Horus, that's what that passage is talking about and Magnus is understandably a wee bit cautious about that as an iron clad proof. It's not exactly the first time a daemon's done that as a tactic to scare him another showed him a vision of Prospero burning, but Magnus rejected that because he denied the idea of Russ ever doing such a thing.
Read the "A Thousand Sons". I'm getting tired of arguing with a person who doesn't even seem to have read the book about this very subject.
"It must be done, Amon. Begin assembling the thralls," ordered Magnus. "Bind their power to mine and they will fuel my ascent."
"Many will not survive such a ritual," said Ahriman, horrified at the casual disregard in which Magnus held their lives. "To burn out so many thralls will cost us greatly."
"DEEP WITHIN THE Reflecting Caves, that light retuned to its source.
Magnus opened his eye, and the athame withdrew from his flesh, its blade crumbling to dust as soon as it came into contact with the air. Ahriman let out a relieved sigh as Magnus sat up, swinging his legs over the side of the white slab and blinking furiously in the darkness.
Only the dim glow that swam in the walls illuminated the chamber. Of the thousand Thralls, only eighteen remained alive, though their bodies were gaunt and drained, the glow from their crystals faint and almost extinguished."
He didn't need a fucking ship. He flat out said earlier that he had a psychic link with the Emperor.
"He said that it was not because he wearied of the fighting, but because a greater destiny called him, one he claimed would ensure the legacy of our conquests will live on until the ending of the stars. Of course Horus wanted to know what that was, but our father did not tell him, which I saw cut him deeply. You see, Horus was the first of us to be reunited with our father after our… scattering. He fought at his side for nearly thirty years, father and only son. Such a bond is unique and not easily relinquished. Truth be told, it is a bond many of my brothers look upon with no small amount of jealousy."
"But not you?"
"Me? No, I never lost contact with my father. We spoke many times before he ever set foot on Prospero. That is a bond that none of my brothers can claim. As our Legion departed Ullanor, I communed with my father and told him what I found on Aghoru, a hidden labyrinth of tunnels that pierce the immaterium and link all places and all times."
Everything Magnus did afte Nikea was to vindicate Sorcery more than it was to help the Emperor.
When was it ever revealed that Land has great knowledge of the butcher's nails? He's a very knowledgeable tech priest I'll give you that, but about the nails specifically a highly advanced piece of archeotech seemingly unique to Nurcia and about Primarch biology a subject exclusive to Emps and the interactions of the two I think not.
He saw examples of it before and he was looking at a scan of Angron's brain. Like, read the book.
"This was rather more profane.
'It is my belief that you have seen this device before,' said the Emperor. 'Is that so?'
'Yes, Divine One. In my expedition down to the Hexarchion Vaults.'
'Vaults that were resealed by your own decree, ratified by Fabricator General Kelbor-Hal and all findings within unrecorded.'
'Yes, Divine One. The lore within represented a moral threat and a potential perversion of cognition.'
The Emperor's fingers pressed to the unconscious primarch's temple. 'But you saw a device like this.'
Arkhan Land nodded. 'The profane texts entombed within the Hexarchion Vaults named it a cruciamen.'
The Emperor continued his fingertip scans, saying nothing.
'I have never seen one implanted and operational,' Arkhan confessed. 'And never of this specific pattern and intensity, in the repose of stasis or storage. The devices in the sealed vault were rather more crude than this construct.'
I'm not confident Emps couldn't remove them if he really wanted to, similar to how he could have certainly gone down there with his army of Golden Men and killed the slave lords alongside Angron earning his eternal loyalty instead of being a dick and teleporting him into orbit while allowing the Slavelords to continue running an entire planet with bloodfilled arenas. That they're constantly set up in forms of 8 having no reference to a certain blood god whatso ever.
That was the Warhounds in some versions. But in all honesty, the entire thing was a stupid clusterfuck for the Black Library.
"As Captain of the Legion's 8th company, Kharn earned glory for himself as the War Hounds conquered planets and systems in the Emperor's name. However, it was not until the Legion were reunited with their primarch Angron that Kharn's true rise to power, and his descent into damnation began.
.......
When the Warhounds discovered Angron they rejoiced at being reunited with their Primarch, taking knee before him and offering up the leadership of the Legion. TO their dismay, Angron, having little interest in the crusade or the Imperium, turned his back upon them. In the end, the Legion forcibly teleported Angron onto their battle barge, sealing him in a cargo hold.
Convinced that they could change the Primarch's mind the captains and the commanders of the War Hounds entered the hold to make their case. One by one Angron killed them all, until Kharn - as one of the few officers of his rank - was the only one brave enough to face the homicidal giant.
Into the chamber spattered with the blood of his brothers Kharn walked, calm and composed, never flinching even as the looming shadow of Angron rose up from where he sat upong a pile of power armoured corpses. Angron attacked Kharn as he had the others smashing him to the ground and hammering him with furious blows.
However, Kharn did not defend himself, remaining in control of himself even as his instincts screamed at him to fight. In the end it was his calm bravery that won Angron's respect, and allowed him to convince the Primarch that master over the Legion was not a collar to be worn over his neck, but a mantle of power to be worn on his mighty shoulers - a mantle that would grant him the freedom to stalk across the stars in an endless war of glorious bloodshed.
-Warlords of the Dark Millenium - Champions of Chaos, pg.138 (mobi)."
The Emperor taught Magnus about the Warp, Daemons and Chaos. Magnus knew about them even before the Emperor taught him, at least certain aspects of it.
"He knew the answer to that now, for he had saved his warriors. He had seized control of their destinies from the talons of a malevolent shadow in the Great Ocean that held their fates in its grasp. The Emperor knew of such creatures, and had bargained with them in ages past, but he had never dared face one. Magnus' victory was not won without cost, and he reached up to touch the smooth skin where his right eye had once been, feeling the pain and vindication of that sacrifice once more.
This power was a pale echo of that, a degenerate pool of trapped energy that had stagnated in this backwater region of space. He could sense the billionfold pathways that spread out from this place, the infinite possibilities of space linked together by a web-like network of conceptual conduits burrowed through the angles between worlds. This region was corrupt, but there were regions of glittering gold in the ocean that threaded the galaxy, binding it as roads of stone had once bound the empires of the Romanii Emperors together.
To memorise the entire labyrinthine network was beyond even one as gifted as him, but in a moment of connection beyond the darkness, he imprinted a million paths, conduits and access points in his mind. He might not know the entire network, but he would remember enough to find other ways in and other paths. His father would be pleased to learn of this network, pleased enough to overlook Magnus' transgression at least.
It still amazed him that he had not known of these pathways, for he and his father had flown the farthest reaches of the Great Ocean and seen sights that would have reduced any other minds to gibbering madness. They had explored the forsaken reefs of entropy, and flown across the depthless chasms of fire that burned with light of every colour. They had fought the nameless, formless predators of the deep, and felt the gelid shadows of entities so vast as to be beyond comprehension.
"A wretch named Erebus who serves my erstwhile brother, Lorgar, It seems the powers that seek to ensnare Horus Lupercal have already claimed some pieces on this board. The Word Bearers are already in thrall to Chaos."
"Lorgar's Legion have betrayed us also?" asked Phael Toron. "This treachery runs deeper than we could ever have imagined."
"Chaos?" said Ahriman. "You use the term as if it were a name."
"It is, my son," said Magnus. "It is the Primordial Annihilator that has hidden in the blackest depths of the Great Ocean since the dawn of time, but which now moves with infinite patience to the surface. It is the enemy against which all must unite or the human race will be destroyed. The coming war is its means of achieving the end of all things."
"Primordial Annihilator? I have never heard of such a thing," said Ahriman.
"Nor had I until I faced Horus and Erebus," said Magnus, and Ahriman was shocked to see the barest flicker in his primarch's aura.
Magnus was lying to them. He had known of this Primordial Annihilator.
"The curse of assumed knowledge is a challenge all enlightened individuals face," said Magnus, softening his tone. "We must remember that we once walked in their shoes and were blind to the truths of the universe. Even I knew nothing of the Great Ocean until my father revealed its glory to me."
"No," whispered Ahriman with sudden, instinctive clarity. "You already knew of it. When the Emperor showed you its wonders and dangers you feigned not to know, but you had already peered into its depths and seen them."
The Emperor told him about the Webway Project and that it was fragile.
"Me? No, I never lost contact with my father. We spoke many times before he ever set foot on Prospero. That is a bond that none of my brothers can claim. As our Legion departed Ullanor, I communed with my father and told him what I found on Aghoru, a hidden labyrinth of tunnels that pierce the immaterium and link all places and all times."
Magnus returned his eye to the stars, and Ahriman kept silent, sensing that to intrude on Magnus' introspection would be unwise, though the ramifications of his discoveries on Aghoru were staggering.
"Do you know what he said, Ahzek? Do you know how he greeted this momentous discovery, this key to every corner of the galaxy?"
"No, my lord."
"He knew," said Magnus simply. "He already knew of it. I should not have been surprised, I suppose. If any being in the galaxy could know such a thing, it would be my father. Now that he knew I had also discovered this lattice, he told me he had discovered it decades ago and had resolved to become its master. This is why he returns to Terra."
"That is great news, surely?"
"Absolutely," said Magnus without enthusiasm. "I immediately volunteered my services, of course, but my offer of assistance was declined."
"Declined? Why?"
Magnus' shoulders dropped a fraction as he said, "Apparently my father's researches are at too delicate a stage to allow another soul to look upon them."
"That surprises me," said Ahriman. "After all, there is no greater student of the esoteric than Magnus the Red. Did the Emperor say why he declined your help?"
"He not only declines my assistance, he warns me to delve no further into my studies. He assures me that he has a vital role for me in the final realisation of his grand designs, but he would tell me no more."
Honestly, i'm tired. Very tired of arguing this subject with a person that very much doesn't seem to have even read the book about Magnus.
Sorry, Vostroya already took that theme, don't want to steal their thunder.
EDIT:
'Sides, while the Imperium officially calls the planet Valhalla, the natives would likely have another name (like Sangsa/Saensayeon) a la Mundus Planus/Chogoris.
Horus: "I hope you and I remain friends, and that you forgive me for what I must do."
Leman: "You're a good friend brother, which makes the future all the harder for me."
Ferrus: "Strangely, I find myself more appreciative of Vulkan and your fears these days, having seen the results of my enclaves."
Fulgrim: "I'm not happy with the results of your actions, but I don't fault you for them."
Vulkan: "We're passed the point of no return at this point, will you take the plunge with me?"
Dorn: "He has slipped below my expectations."
Guilliman: "I'll still do my duty, but it's grown tiring as of late."
Magnus: "The Imperium sucks Kesar. It really, really does. At least I have a good support system."
Sanguinius: "I hope we don't become enemies."
Lion: "Do not stand in my way."
Perturabo: "The time for execution is at hand, and strangely there are few reasons to delay."
Mortarion: "Kesar, the Emperor and Malcador deserve death for all their sins, help me give it to them."
Lorgar: DECEASED.
Khan: *Could not be reached for comment*
Konrad: "This will be interesting."
Angron: "This should be fun."
Corvus: "I haven't talked with him for a while."
Alpharius: "...Which of us will be right in the end?"
Omegon: "I hope I learn it soon."
Malcador: "Unfortunately, you've become an obstacle."
Emperor: "YOUR ACTIONS WILL NOT DO."
Mechanicum: *Currently rebooting from joy*
Valhalla: "ALL HAIL THE SOVEREIGN'S SON." *Imperial Army Units are deployed. *
Kelbor-Hal: "I am beyond pleased with this outcome."
Luna Wolves: "Horus' recent discussions have drawn up quite the stir."
Space Wolves: "If we come to blows, no it wasn't personal."
Iron Hands: "We're not commenting on this right now."
Emperor's Children: "We're not happy with your Primarch's recent decisions."
Salamanders: *Unable to provide a uniform opinion due to overextension of forces.*
Imperial Fists: "We have no real thoughts on him."
Ultramarines: "Unpopular leadership that's gone through multiple changes in rapid succession including a coup, all during a period of economic hardship and military displeasure. Yep, I've seen this one before."
Thousand Sons: "I think we're just going to stay on Prospero for the moment."
Blood Angels: "Unfortunately, the unthinkable may be around the corner."
Dark Angels: "Choose your loyalties wisely."
Iron Warriors: "What needs to be done will be done."
Death Guard: "What needs to be done will be done."
Argel Tal: *Priority Target*
White Scars: *Could not be reached*
Night Lords: *Unable to provide a uniform opinion due to overextension of forces.*
War Hounds: "Thank you for your support."
World Eaters: "We've got other things to worry about."
Raven Guard: *Unable to provide a uniform opinion due to overextension of forces.*
Alpha Legion: This Legion does not exist.
Slaanesh: "I HATE ALL OF YOU!"
Nurgle: "You are officially the one I hate third-most."
Khorne: "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BEST CENTURY EVER!"
Tzeentch: "It always has been just as planned."
Malal: "It's been quite an enjoyable evening. Here's to many more."
U'mas: "Slowly and carefully is how an Anathema is fought."
Leman: "He is far too slow, diplomacy is not useful. He needs to shape up."
Vulkan: "I like his training regiment, but I have not met him yet."
Rogal Dorn: "I have not thought about him."
Sanguinius: "His training regiment is rather kind, but I haven't met him."
Lion El'Jonson: "An acceptable training plan executed at average levels for a Primarch. Not up to my standards, but acceptable."
I think of his dual personality as essentially two aspects of him that he switches between freely. One side wants to promote justice, and the other just wants to punish. He switches between the two freely from my perspecive depending on the circumstance. Although as the Crusade went on the latter personality grew more prominent. His other personality is basically the same, just less forgiving and far more sadistic. Probably along the lines of "If you fall I can't wait to turn you into a screaming pile of flesh begging for death as you realize the consequences of your actions" or "You will die a horrible painful death for the sins you may or may not commit. We shall see."
I think of his dual personality as essentially two aspects of him that he switches between freely. One side wants to promote justice, and the other just wants to punish. He switches between the two freely from my perspecive depending on the circumstance. Although as the Crusade went on the latter personality grew more prominent. His other personality is basically the same, just less forgiving and far more sadistic. Probably along the lines of "If you fall I can't wait to turn you into a screaming pile of flesh begging for death as you realize the consequences of your actions" or "You will die a horrible painful death for the sins you may or may not commit. We shall see."
He would require a lot of therapy. Like decades of therapy. I can't think of anything you can do to help him. Runes are flexible, but technically his mind isn't broken so they can't quite "fix" him. Maybe a Personality*Assimilate + Personality*Retain? The issue with that is how do you target a specific personality. Also which one do you target? Plus, Curze is going to be extremely against this since it will almost certainly not work and could warp his mind.
