Just to throw a bit of a hand grenade into the discussion: How confident are you that the populations of Helghan and Portland would be happy being a single state with oligarchies, autocracies, etc?
If I had to guess, considering how it went for them last time (Visari), not to fond of them.

So how could the two "governments" of Caliban be described then prometheus?

Also just to confirm my assumption has any intelligence work been done to clear things up on Caliban at all?
 
Just to throw a bit of a hand grenade into the discussion: How confident are you that the populations of Helghan and Portland would be happy being a single state with oligarchies, autocracies, etc?
how do you mean, since the Republic is the overarching government and is democratic. What another member planets government is should hardly matters to a Helghan citizen. A member planets would still follow every law they do, it just has a different way of selecting a planetary administrator to implement Republic laws. The Helghast elect theirs, where as another planet might have a king(if that's their culture) or something else enforce Republic law. What really matters is who the representative is, cause only the representative has a chance to change Republic laws.
 
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Staff Notice - Don't misuse the funny emote.
Our population is like 2/3 heavily left democracy, judging by their voting patterns. Maybe more. I suspect that they are going to care quite a bit if someone with their name is acting in a manner they deem despicable.
 
Our population is like 2/3 heavily left democracy, judging by their voting patterns. Maybe more. I suspect that they are going to care quite a bit if someone with their name is acting in a manner they deem despicable.
K that's BS, just because somebody is for democracy, doesn't at all mean that they are in turn against (morally or even professionally) another type of government. It simply means that's what they like.
 
If I had to guess, considering how it went for them last time (Visari), not to fond of them.

So how could the two "governments" of Caliban be described then prometheus?

Also just to confirm my assumption has any intelligence work been done to clear things up on Caliban at all?
Huh, I thought it was pretty clear in the description of the states (though maybe I hid it a little too well). The Khan is an autocrat who has an advisory council she doesn't necessarily have to listen to but often does due to politics, while the Prospero Pact are a collection of city-states with a franchise limited to perhaps 30% of their population at most (landowning, male, citizen). Which one is better depends on your point of view, I suppose, but both have adapted to the harsh conditions of their planet for better or worse.

how do you mean, since the Republic is the overarching government and is democratic. What another member planets government is should hardly matters to a Helghan citizen. A member planets would still follow every law they do, it just has a different way of selecting a planetary administrator to implement Republic laws. The Helghast elect theirs, where as another planet might have a king(if that's their culture) or something else enforce Republic law. What really matters is who the representative is, cause only the representative has a chance to change Republic laws.
I mean, I don't live in Queensland, but if the Premier there had supreme power, I'd be rather concerned. Heck, battalions worth of people volunteered to fight against the Directorate.
 
K that's BS, just because somebody is for democracy, doesn't at all mean that they are in turn against (morally or even professionally) another type of government. It simply means that's what they like.

Alternatively, they believe that people live best when given some freedom and that the means of maintaining an autocracy are repressive and despicable. If you live in the State of America, and next door to you is the State of North Korea, and you both have the same federal government, are you likely to like each other?

The GM bringing this up is a huge clue.
 
This is part of why I've been saying picking a side is the wrong move.

They both need to be dismantled or neutralized while limiting the impact on the innocent civilians, and the best way to do that is to undermine their source of power and social control, which is the command of and access to the planets limited resources. This planet is like Somalia, there is no respectable government to row in behind, it's murderous warlords all the way down.
 
I mean, I don't live in Queensland, but if the Premier there had supreme power, I'd be rather concerned. Heck, battalions worth of people volunteered to fight against the Directorate.
Well if it was on the same land mass/planet, or they continually committed numerous types of atrocities when there was very viable alternative and are complete aresholes like the Directerate. Then ya, ya they might be worried.

But if it's ly's away on a entirely different planet, and they haven't continually committed numerous types of atrocities when there was very viable alternative, and the Republic itself is vouching for this. Well most people probably wouldn't care and go about their day. Probably talk about it around the office water cooler, or comment on it in a internet forum, but that's about it. Sure there would be some people who get overly concerned, and up in arms about it. But there are people who get overly concerned and up in arms about literally everything. This is a relatively new government on a desiccated planet. Where the only other instance of democracy on it, is run by slavers who employ bandits and only a small percentage of their population have any chance of making a difference.

Alternatively, they believe that people live best when given some freedom and that the means of maintaining an autocracy are repressive and despicable. If you live in the State of America, and next door to you is the State of North Korea, and you both have the same federal government, are you likely to like each other?

The GM bringing this up is a huge clue.
Well for one, could you at least try to pick a comparison that makes even the tiniest bits of sense. Because what you just described is pure nonsense, I'm unsure what I would have to ignore for that embarrassing excuse for a example to even work. LIke what were you thinking, of course they would dislike each other, from their prior and recent history they have with each other. And the continued threats among many other issues. what a bad example.

Better example that doesn't have a the impossibility that would require ignoring the very reason one country exists in the first place.

Country A is democratic while Country B is Autocratic. Both have just met and both have committed war crimes in the past.
Country A is more powerful and stable, while Country B's landmass is a desert and is currently in a war. Country B requests help from Country A. And country A says on the condition that B joins Country A and follows A's laws. Country B accepts on the condition that B keeps it's leader. Now why would A's citizens dislike this, they have no preconceived notions about B all that's there to dislike is the situations B is in, and the scary Autocratic word for people to focus on.

Also negatory the GM bringing this up is him asking a question. If he wants every government to be democracy then he can just say so, but since that has yet to happen.
 
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Just to throw a bit of a hand grenade into the discussion: How confident are you that the populations of Helghan and Portland would be happy being a single state with oligarchies, autocracies, etc?

Fine so long as proper laws, standards, and rights are protected and enforced. People rarely care so long as horrible crimes are not happening and known. (And considering what is happening in our world in certain Red Nations not even then). If we force either side to accept that things will need to change for any of our help then whatever the Planetary government is won't matter.
If I had to guess, considering how it went for them last time (Visari), not to fond of them.

So how could the two "governments" of Caliban be described then prometheus?

Also just to confirm my assumption has any intelligence work been done to clear things up on Caliban at all?
Vasari is a complicated person in Helghan society. He isn't hated or considered perfect. Because people understand both his actions good and bad. It also wasn't Vasari that did the Civil War that forced the people to rise up. That was the remaining power players that wanted to take control no matter the cost.
Our population is like 2/3 heavily left democracy, judging by their voting patterns. Maybe more. I suspect that they are going to care quite a bit if someone with their name is acting in a manner they deem despicable.
No they aren't because that list is not properly set up. For one no action was ever able to affect any party but the leading one even when the action taken wasn't something that party should be doing. As for being left leaning that just means they are more for leftist policy not that they care about particular government stlye. After all plenty of leftist Regimes in the world are in no way democratic.
Huh, I thought it was pretty clear in the description of the states (though maybe I hid it a little too well). The Khan is an autocrat who has an advisory council she doesn't necessarily have to listen to but often does due to politics, while the Prospero Pact are a collection of city-states with a franchise limited to perhaps 30% of their population at most (landowning, male, citizen). Which one is better depends on your point of view, I suppose, but both have adapted to the harsh conditions of their planet for better or worse.


I mean, I don't live in Queensland, but if the Premier there had supreme power, I'd be rather concerned. Heck, battalions worth of people volunteered to fight against the Directorate.
Because the Directorate was preforming war crimes and atrocities that we were able to confirm. And considering they join to reinstate a monarch that doesn't really paint a democratic picture. Especially considering that post-war she didn't reinstate the council with the planetary representatives. It is still her as executive leader with more power than before the war and the founding houses representatives. Also since quite a few of the planets in the coalition aren't exactly democratic themselves. Several in fact are run by the local Noble families. Others by oligarchs specifically the heart of their industry which we are directly working with and helping. Others are run by mining conglomerates/companies and one was a straight-up theocracy.

Alternatively, they believe that people live best when given some freedom and that the means of maintaining an autocracy are repressive and despicable. If you live in the State of America, and next door to you is the State of North Korea, and you both have the same federal government, are you likely to like each other?

The GM bringing this up is a huge clue.
Standards of living and civil rights along with straight-up just normal human rights don't require a democracy to enforce. We as the overarching supreme power has the federal government would be able to enforce those standards on any member world and if they refused well there's a reason we have the largest army. Democracy is great and if we find more worlds that are like that then yeah they will probably be snatched up but pretending it is the only possible way for things to work is foolish. We live in a world that's not perfect that'll take us even less perfect so we have to deal with the cards we are dealt with not what we want to have.
 
Also negatory the GM bringing this up is him asking a question. If he wants every government to be democracy then he can just say so, but since that has yet to happen.
Again, outsider observer: the QM asked a leading question. QMs generally only ask leading questions when the players or a subset thereof are waltzing down the primrose path to Hilarity Junction and is trying to sound out if they really wanna do that.

So, ask yourself: do you really wanna do that? Because if you do, and you convince enough people to go along, you might very well be in for some very large and toothy unintended consequences. Just sayin'.
 
Again, outsider observer: the QM asked a leading question. QMs generally only ask leading questions when the players or a subset thereof are waltzing down the primrose path to Hilarity Junction and is trying to sound out if they really wanna do that.

So, ask yourself: do you really wanna do that? Because if you do, and you convince enough people to go along, you might very well be in for some very large and toothy unintended consequences. Just sayin'.
Couldn't care less. If the QM doesn't say anything definitive, it's up to the players to decide. As like pretty much every other quest has been.
 
I think the better question is:

@prometheus110 Assume we ally with the Khan and she is invited to our capitol. While there, she appears for a televised interview. The reporter asks her how she began her rule, and the Khan describes how she would sack the cities of those who opposed her killing some and then throw the rest out into the desert to perish or survive as best they might.

How does this go over?
 
@prometheus110 I think I figured out a way to make the prototype and primitive Gauss rifle techs work. Considering that those weapons in BT seem to be the same just built by different people. So for the prototype have it be normal it is larger taking up even more space and it has a chance to jam. For the primitive make it so it is now normal sized but it still can and does jam. Then of course standard just be the normal version.
 
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I think the better question is:

@prometheus110 Assume we ally with the Khan and she is invited to our capitol. While there, she appears for a televised interview. The reporter asks her how she began her rule, and the Khan describes how she would sack the cities of those who opposed her killing some and then throw the rest out into the desert to perish or survive as best they might.

How does this go over?
Well, the messaging could use work...
@prometheus110 I think I figured out a way to make the prototype and primitive Gauss rifle techs work. Considering that those weapons in BT seem to be the same just built by different people. So for the prototype have it be normal it is larger taking up even more space and it has a chance to jam. For the primitive make it so it is now normal sized but it still can and does jam. Then of course standard just be the normal version.
I was thinking of doing something like that for the energy shields, so extending it out to other items makes sense.
 
I think the better question is:

@prometheus110 Assume we ally with the Khan and she is invited to our capitol. While there, she appears for a televised interview. The reporter asks her how she began her rule, and the Khan describes how she would sack the cities of those who opposed her killing some and then throw the rest out into the desert to perish or survive as best they might.

How does this go over?
and you assume we wouldn't give her a PR person why?
 
and you assume we wouldn't give her a PR person why?

I assume that at some point what she's done will come out to the population, and I'd like to know their take on it. You can spin things plenty, but if the truth comes out, issues. That's what I was asking @prometheus110

A worthless planet and 300k people is not worth doing something that could cause domestic unrest.
 
I assume that at some point what she's done will come out to the population, and I'd like to know their take on it. You can spin things plenty, but if the truth comes out, issues. That's what I was asking @prometheus110

A worthless planet and 300k people is not worth doing something that could cause domestic unrest.
Things come out, then gets forgotten months later after a new scandal about a celebrity. Welcome to the attention span of a typical citizen.
 
I assume that at some point what she's done will come out to the population, and I'd like to know their take on it. You can spin things plenty, but if the truth comes out, issues. That's what I was asking @prometheus110

A worthless planet and 300k people is not worth doing something that could cause domestic unrest.
So no different then the same shit the Helghan have done and in fact much less damning and horrible. Like I said that is the nature of the beast the people won't care much of anything and it sure as hell won't cause unrest. Because for one she isn't going to be allowed to keep doing that nor will she have to once she has our support. Those actions are required when there is nothing else that can be done. If a enemy will not submit you do not leave them on your flank you remove them one way or another.

I was thinking of doing something like that for the energy shields, so extending it out to other items makes sense.
By bigger I am talking about taking up one more space in the critical slots not they are the size of a Naval gun and do the damage of a mech gun like what we got with the lasers.

I think the better question is:



@prometheus110 Assume we ally with the Khan and she is invited to our capitol. While there, she appears for a televised interview. The reporter asks her how she began her rule, and the Khan describes how she would sack the cities of those who opposed her killing some and then throw the rest out into the desert to perish or survive as best they might.



How does this go over?

Clap, Clap. Way to go you are asking a question that means nothing. Because there is only one "good" answer you will accept. You layout the only way the answer could be and hoping to scare people into a certain mindset and idea. I would have tried to be more subtle about it but if you want to be completely obvious about your bias that is your right I guess.



I just want people to be mindful of the internal politics of their state, is all. If y'all start doing anything heinous, I'll let you know, but I doubt I'll have to.

And we are doing that. But expecting our people to care about this place. And how we handle a bad situation where any action we take is going to have a negative consequence are two very different things. If this was a major world or a greater power they would care especially if war crimes and atrocities are being committed like they are going out of style then it would matter more. Our people are not some Naive idealist population that only thinks one way is best. They are fully aware of all actions that might be needed to be taken in an interstellar government in order to properly function and that not everyone will be or even want to be like them.

@F0lkL0re @Thule @ALanos @Captain Hunt Is there any way to convince you to join my plan? We have already spent too much time on this planet to take actions that will require that we keep dumping AP into it for more turns. Better to bite the bullet settle the planet before anymore needless death happens and transition it into a productive world to join us. My plan takes the faster and most efficient path to get a good standard of living and rights for the people on the planet. An Autocrat can do the changes needed to create a viable and stable living condition especially with us guiding those standards. Plus I am building more ships to increase our power and making colonization efforts both faster and more efficient as well.
 
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By bigger I am talking about taking up one more space in the critical slots not they are the size of a Naval gun and do the damage of a mech gun like what we got with the lasers.
No, I know what you mean. What I mean is that I've been thinking of ways to have technology change as it matures, and one of them has been to have it get smaller or be more reliable --energy shields are just one of the first items I've needed to think up rules for.

And we are doing that. But expecting our people to care about this place. And how we handle a bad situation where any action we take is going to have a negative consequence are two very different things. If this was a major world or a greater power they would care especially if war crimes and atrocities are being committed like they are going out of style then it would matter more. Our people are not some Naive idealist population that only thinks one way is best. They are fully aware of all actions that might be needed to be taken in an interstellar government in order to properly function and that not everyone will be or even want to be like them.
It would be the second or third planet entering into the Republic. It would be pretty important and noteworthy on its own regardless of its political makeup.
 
@F0lkL0re @Thule @ALanos @Captain Hunt Is there any way to convince you to join my plan? We have already spent too much time on this planet to take actions that will require that we keep dumping AP into it for more turns. Better to bite the bullet settle the planet before anymore needless death happens and transition it into a productive world to join us. My plan takes the faster and most efficient path to get a good standard of living and rights for the people on the planet. An Autocrat can do the changes needed to create a viable and stable living condition especially with us guiding those standards. Plus I am building more ships to increase our power and making colonization efforts both faster and more efficient as well.
Nah sorry Advent I'll stick to my current vote as I don't think we have enough info to make a decision on how to handle the situation on Caliban yet and it isn't a thinly veiled invasion with zero information gathering like Darkandus's write in is.
 
No, I know what you mean. What I mean is that I've been thinking of ways to have technology change as it matures, and one of them has been to have it get smaller or be more reliable --energy shields are just one of the first items I've needed to think up rules for.


It would be the second or third planet entering into the Republic. It would be pretty important and noteworthy on its own regardless of its political makeup.
Cool on the shield thing. And yeah that makes sense for maturing technology. Another option is the heat produced older models tend to produce more heat as well. Certain techs can also be more heavy though that is limited to those that use ammo in some way.

It would be noteworthy but it would also be noteworthy because we would be changing the planet and enforcing proper treatment and right before they would be allowed in. That will be more important to our people. Because they had no problem supporting a Monarch like Kamea. They also have no problem with our relationship and ties to two other dictatorships. Which is what the MoC and the TC are no matter what they say. And they are Monarchs as well even if they take a different title. The leadership follows their family line there is no one else since they took power. They control a vast majority of what is done in their realms and all other hallmarks of dictatorship. But they protect their people and provide them with standards and human/civil rights so our people are okay with them. The same would apply to the Caliban government if those demands are met are people will be happy with the results.

Nah sorry Advent I'll stick to my current vote as I don't think we have enough info to make a decision on how to handle the situation on Caliban yet and it isn't a thinly veiled invasion with zero information gathering like Darkandus's write in is.
So you want to spend even more time being wasted on this when we have more important things we need to move on to and focus on instead. This planet is a AP sink at this point why would we keep drawing it out? Any Intel we get would be gathered by our units deployed to stop the fighting and force a peace. Waiting gets us nothing that would be worth it. We already got the leaders to confirm that they aren't shining examples of people but that was always going to be the case? What more do you think we will find that will be useful? Any military intelligence would be gathered by our ships, satellites and agents deployed with the ground forces. Any civilian intel will also be gain by agents with the deployed forces and by having the people stand down and join our side. As for the camps they won't work because not only would we not be allowed to set up in the territory of the factions as we are basically telling them to F-off there is nowhere near enough people to make a third side at all. Not to mention that just how are our agents going to get into places that would allow them to get intel without the factions letting us in? Also the amount of forces needed to "protect the camps" would be the same as an invasion force because we would need a powerful number of units to dissuade any attacks. And that would be be nearly if not larger than any one sides forces. So all plans involving camps are an invasion in all but name.

@RandomDwarf @Ridli Scott @Redhead222 @Chase_L_Maier Any chance I can get you to support my plan?
 
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@F0lkL0re @Thule @ALanos @Captain Hunt Is there any way to convince you to join my plan? We have already spent too much time on this planet to take actions that will require that we keep dumping AP into it for more turns. Better to bite the bullet settle the planet before anymore needless death happens and transition it into a productive world to join us. My plan takes the faster and most efficient path to get a good standard of living and rights for the people on the planet. An Autocrat can do the changes needed to create a viable and stable living condition especially with us guiding those standards. Plus I am building more ships to increase our power and making colonization efforts both faster and more efficient as well.
Are you serious? No really are you serious? Because while we have other actions for bread and butter stability and prosperity the main topic is the situation in Caliban. I do not condone both of these governments and I'm pretty sure the government would fall if we immediately jump to one side and you are advocating an autocrat. This planet is small enough that their leaders are not worth it to defend them and it would be easier for them to swallow democratization than having protestors storm government buildings to make a point. Our people have voted left multiple times since the start of this quest with the composition in parliament to show for it. This means a party having a social democratic or democratic socialist values would be a shoe in to become a party of government and our constituents would know that it is a betrayal if we support an autocrat or an oligarch to unify a planet when we can do an intervention instead. Lastly, this is not a presidential system with a unified executive but a government under a Westminster system so a lot of policy has to go through parliament and we have no way of covering this up. News would be blaring at we did and protests would flare up for the decidedly undemocratic principles the government has proposed.
 
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