Remove ads

The Lords of Ruin -- Battletech/Killzone

Reader mode
065tdsa said:
There's this thing called space. So long as quarantines are ran properly, a virus can never get onto a planet that it is not deployed on through simple transmission.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hi there, welcome to 2024. How was the cryopod? No freezer burn, right? There's some shit you need to get caught up on.

No lie, I respect the balls of trying to pull that argument now of all times but like... that's a very weak reed on which to say it's totes okay to deliberately release a human-seeking war virus into the galactic ecosystem.
 
Genolution said:
In canon, popular uprisings and progressive ideological political movements were non-existent and the mass mobilization of populations for industrial warfare was dead; all three have been demonstrated, not just by us but across the Inner Sphere to an increasing degree starting with our allies. We've radiated enough of an anti-FASAnomics and FASApolitics aura that we cannot count on everything going the same as canon.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So the conflict we or the great houses would have to fight against the Clans would be much more intense resulting in more casualties and destruction. I want to minimize the Clans power for when round 2 comes and preventing major industrial centers including from falling to them would greatly help with that. So I still think preventing Terra's fall should be on the top of our priority list. And then their is the question of getting those ideals for the rebellions to the people in the first place. The Clans will be the hardest state in the Innersphere to infiltrate so doing any actions to undermine Clan rule will be a pain to actually achieve.

065tdsa said:
The Clans don't have that skillset, nor do they have the preference for it, they will just employ collective punishment until the uprisings stop or the planet is depopulated. And on Terra, with ComStar's center of operations and a ton of legacy fortifications courtesy of House Cameron's paranoia and the Amaris War? A decade after the last terran on the surface is dead, Blakist attacks would still be coming out of secret tunnels.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not yet anyway. The Clans are many things but being unendingly stupid is not one of them they will adapt and when that happens doing any action to undermine them will become less effective allowing them to use the resources of their conquered planets more effectively. Also before that point is reached I am not okay with allowing the Clans to do mass executions on a larger amount of planets in the future because we pulled out while we still could do things. At minimum we should at least try and prevent the Clans from taking more space and getting Terra.

And the most effective way to do that is by giving Focht all the support we can and even if he looses use the opportunity he created to throw the invading clans into disarray for a major counter attack to press the Clans as hard as we can before offering them a truce.

065tdsa said:
That being said, if we decide they are getting out of hand with the civilian casualties, we can always launch a hopefully more mature, improved Eschaton. Or conventional military attack for that matter, since its not like we'd stop building ships, and the Clans would be strewn about the place garrisoning their new hellholes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So you would advocate for us using the Virus bomb and doing a genocide in the future? I rather keep that genie in the bottle forever because of all the reasons other people have already mentioned.
 
Last edited:
Please do not drop the fucking genocide bomb, especially as the genocide survivor population that is uniquely vulnerable to geneplagues jesus fucking christ
 
Omega-Chris said:
So the conflict we or the great houses would have to fight against the Clans would be much more intense resulting in more casualties and destruction. I want to minimize the Clans power for when round 2 comes and preventing major industrial centers including from falling to them would greatly help with that. So I still think preventing Terra's fall should be on the top of our priority list. And then their is the question of getting those ideals for the rebellions to the people in the first place. The Clans will be the hardest state in the Innersphere to infiltrate so doing any actions to undermine Clan rule will be a pain to actually achieve.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, the Clans are getting Terra if they win regardless of if we deploy the virus bomb; this weapon doesn't affect invader warriors. Also, the Clans are notoriously bad at preventing infiltration. Further, even if they were good at it, they are even more so really good at creating the material conditions for widespread discontent and thus revolution. Like, I don't want the clans to get their hands on Terra for many reasons, but I'm not willing to commit genocide to prevent that.
 
Genolution said:
Well, the Clans are getting Terra if they win regardless of if we deploy the virus bomb; this weapon doesn't affect invader warriors. Also, the Clans are notoriously bad at preventing infiltration. Further, even if they were good at it, they are even more so really good at creating the material conditions for widespread discontent and thus revolution. Like, I don't want the clans to get their hands on Terra for many reasons, but I'm not willing to commit genocide to prevent that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Note I am not advocating for using the Genebomb except if the Clans are right on our doorstep after conquering the Innersphere so the absolute worst of worst scenario's. I am advocating for not pulling out while we still can do things to hold back the Clans or at least weaken them to a great degree.
 
Last edited:
I have to wonder how badly damaged the clans are by now?

If they are even capable of rebuilding they're fleets?

The clans never had the population or industrial capacity to equal the inner sphere and in this timeline those differences are even worse because there is near tech parity between them.

They had to build up massive stockpiles over centuries to pull of this invasion.

Honestly, the clans may try to throw the fight so they can get 12 years to try and build up supporting infrastructure and train replacements for there military.
 
[] Reject the Plan.

Reject, reject, reject!

Reject! Because it needs repeating.

This bioweapon is an absolutely terrible idea. Even if we ignore the moral aspect, we will be killing 5% of the Clan population, only to leave the other 95% alive with a fresh hunger for vengeance. Including the Clan scientist caste, who, let me remind everyone, are really fucking good at genetics!

If the Canopians can make a gene plague, so can the Clans. Retaliation in kind is a certainty. And once this box of Pandora has been opened, we will stand no chance at closing it again.

No, no, a thousand times no.
 
liquidsnake4673 said:
Honestly, the clans may try to throw the fight so they can get 12 years to try and build up supporting infrastructure and train replacements for there military.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think so. This isn't like all the other battles they have had in the Innersphere this is a true batchall where both sides fully know the rules so honor is on the line. And with honor being the most important thing in Clan culture they would fight with everything they have to win and retain that honor.
 
abominable said:
How do you think we can make the virus less of a flamethrower, and more of a scalpel?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Tighten its kill criteria, primarily by locating markers that would indicate a mixed caste and excluding them. If the other castes have their own genetic markers and you were a good enough gene-coder you in theory could make it so that anyone with those markers would be explicitly not targeted. That would, in theory, exclude everyone but the pureborn warriors and pureborn/pureborn descendants. You'd still have civilian casualties in those with substantially compromised immune systems and warrior caste washouts, but it would probably be a lot cleaner.

Mind you, you'd also have a fair number of angry freeborn warrior survivors.
 
Omega-Chris said:
I don't think so. This isn't like all the other battles they have had in the Innersphere this is a true batchall where both sides fully know the rules so honor is on the line. And with honor being the most important thing in Clan culture they would fight with everything they have to win and retain that honor.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

True enough. It just seems despite COM* doing there best negotiations it is a win/win scenario for the clans.
 
liquidsnake4673 said:
True enough. It just seems despite COM* doing there best negotiations it is a win/win scenario for the clans.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Don't be so sure. They won in Canon and if they are as underestimating of them there their likely just as underestimating of them here. After all their enemy is a "civilian phone company with a paper general and green troops". What can they do to defeat the the mighty clans?!!!
 
liquidsnake4673 said:
True enough. It just seems despite COM* doing there best negotiations it is a win/win scenario for the clans.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Funnily enough, the discord discussion is leaning towards it being the exact opposite. The Inner Sphere after all can ramp up to drown the clans in metal much faster than the clans can digest their conquests, and even if the clans do win their best formations have just been maimed in a fight vs ComStar, while not on the frontlines. Plus, if the clans do win, there's still going to be the fight over who gets to be ilClan (the ilKhan technically isn't part of their own clan while ilKhan iirc), and they have to occupy Terra to claim its industry, with plenty of opportunity for ComStar to play fuckfuck games.
 
Last edited:
So, shifting away from the genocide question for a moment - if we support ComStar's plan, what kind of support would be we sending? Would this just be a munitions/spare parts deal, or are we allowed to send Helghan troops?

The plan is, technically, a defensive action. Could we loan them a MAWLR pack?
 
Since everyone says no on dropping Eschaton on the Clans (personally, I want Focht to win the gamble so that we don't need to drop the Eschaton), will retaliating with I-Pet count as an alternative, but we target every single warfighting industry of the Clans?
 
While nothing's certain, I'd like to say that I personally think Focht's chances are extremely good. Compare to canon Tukayyid: 7 Clans fighting the ComGuards over 14 points. Of those 14 points, 3 were Clan victories, 2 were considered draws, and a resounding 9 were ComGuard victories. It was, in other words, a blowout.

Now, the Clans do have several advantages going into Lyndon that they lacked in canon. They'll have some Petrusite weapons for a few of their BattleMechs, they're bringing 10 Clans instead of 7, and any complacency they may have going into Tukayyid they'll entirely lack heading into Lyndon.

But I think Focht's two big advantages compared to canon probably outweigh all that. One, several of the Clan's vanguard units have been all but disintegrated by ORDI, and the Commonwealth and Combine have done a better job fighting their opponents compared to canon as well. The tip of the spear is blunted, and while every Clan unit is made up of ultraelite shitkickers there's still a difference between their normal and their best, and the latter isn't easily replaced.

Two, a year or so back Focht came to us with a shopping list as long as his arm, and we said "sure that checks out." My man is rocking modern Helghan-pattern weapons, combat cyborgs, Helghan Power Armour, drone ASFs, NullSig Systems, and truly obscene quantities of additional SLDF-grade war material on top of their own significant stockpiles. He's coming loaded for bear, and his forces have had a decent bit of time to train on all this stuff. The Clan's technological advantage, while certainly still present, should be notably denuded compared to Tukayyid.

Even if he does lose, which we do have to consider as a realistic possibility, there's no way the Clans just saunter out and keep going. To beat all that, they'll have to heavily commit forces, including at least some of their best remaining units, and they're going to take serious, serious casualties even if they carry the day. While victory earns us a ceasefire, defeat does not actually cede anything but Terra. While Helghan is at real risk of withdrawing from the conflict after the upcoming elections, and the armies of the Inner Sphere will be up against heavily degraded opposition while having taken no further damage themselves.

Not only is the genebomb both morally black and coming with severe blowback potential, I'm also confident that it's unnecessary.
 
Last edited:
On the topic of the virus bomb, it wouldn't be a moral dilemma if the genocide bomb wasn't horrifyingly tempting. It's kind of an ethical and moral test the QM has laid out for us as questers here: there is an option that feels very easy to us, that will resolve the issue, that as discussed is an expedient answer—but such an easy solution is also something that is morally horrifying, makes us recoil, to present the choice to the questers. Do we do what is easy, or do we do what is right?

But just as in real life, the option that seems easy and sacrifices morality and care for expedience will inevitably have consequences, which will force one to ask: even if one is willing to choose to do a great evil for the sake of ease, is that great evil truly worth it, or will it inevitably lead to even worse consequences down the line?

A theme in this story as well as in the source material seems to be that whenever in Helghan's history a "hard man makes a hard choice", when he chooses to do evil rather than take the harder, more uncertain path of what is right, that inevitably blew back on the Helghan people. The opening blurb of the story even describes that. Meanwhile, this story's take on Battletech seems to adopt as a theme that the endless cycle of paying evil unto evil, of inflicting easy cruelty only leads to a bad galaxy staying bad. Using the virus bomb would be to continue this cycle of cruelty and evil that started before even the Succession Wars onwards, but it is possible to choose not to visit more atrocity upon existing atrocity. Perhaps there's none of the easy certainty of the virus bomb definitively ending the war, but it's a start, to have the option to do the easy, expedient, and evil thing, and choosing not to do so, to choose to live in a galaxy where better things are possible. It'd be a difference from what happens so often in the source material.
 
Last edited:
Can we loan a MAWL-R for Comstar?

Not give just loan, sure they probably will give a long lool on it's internals but the Clans will no doubr focus on beating over anything else.
 
Genolution said:
On the topic of the virus bomb, it wouldn't be a moral dilemma if the genocide bomb wasn't horrifyingly tempting. It's kind of an ethical and moral test the QM has laid out for us as questers here: there is an option that feels very easy to us, that will resolve the issue, that as discussed is an expedient answer—but such an easy solution is also something that is morally horrifying, makes us recoil, to present the choice to the questers. Do we do what is easy, or do we do what is right?

But just as in real life, the option that seems easy and sacrifices morality and care for expedience will inevitably have inevitable consequences, which will force one to ask: even if one is willing to choose to do a great evil for the sake of ease, is that great evil truly worth it, or will it inevitably lead to even worse consequences down the line?

A theme in this story as well as in the source material seems to be that whenever in Helghan's history a "hard man makes a hard choice", when he chooses to do evil rather than take the harder, more uncertain path of what is right, that inevitably blew back on the Helghan people. The opening blurb of the story even describes that. Meanwhile, this story's take on Battletech seems to adopt as a theme that the endless cycle of paying evil unto evil, of inflicting easy cruelty only leads to a bad galaxy staying bad. Using the virus bomb would be to continue this cycle of cruelty and evil onwards the cycle that went from before the Succession Wars, but it is possible to choose not to visit more atrocity upon existing atrocity. Perhaps there's none of the easy certainty of the virus bomb definitively ending the war, but it's a start, to have the option to do the easy, expedient, and evil thing, and choosing not to do so, to choose to live in a galaxy where better things are possible. It'd be a difference from what happens so often in the source material.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, it would really just be a continuation of the usual in Battletech. War forever. Nobody ever wins hard enough to unify the Inner Sphere. All we're really voting on is whether or not the clans should be allowed to join in on the fun.

And from the ORDI perspective, why not? We're on the other side of the sphere from the Clans. Even if they have Terra, they'll still have to deal with the successor states, which just means more problems for our rivals. This does leave planets of people vulnerable to being conquered by fascist eugenicists, but like, are they really much worse than the DCMS? We can even build goodwill by helping the great houses stave off the new Star League. The clans are probably not going to conquer ORDI, so why risk everything to stop them?
 
Soberan 123 said:
Can we loan a MAWL-R for Comstar?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Unfortunately no Prom has confirmed on the discord that we don't have the time to train Comstar to operate the MAWLR and we can't send a crew to operate it because their not part of Comstar and only Comstar personnel are allowed to take part in the Trail.

Also according to Prom Comstar using a MAWLR would cause the Clans to use Warships during the Trail which is a net negative for Comstar.
 
Omega-Chris said:
Unfortunately no Prom has confirmed on the discord that we don't have the time to train Comstar to operate the MAWLR and we can't send a crew to operate it because their not part of Comstar and only Comstar personnel are allowed to take part in the Trail.

Also according to Prom Comstar using a MAWLR would cause the Clans to use Warships during the Trail which is a net negative for Comstar.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
so only comstar troops can fight? what about Helghan mechanists not bareing weapons but just working the shops on a forge crusier?
 
I'll admit, I had considered use of the Genophage as an absolute last resort in the event that Focht's gambit on Lyndon failed...but after seeing the back and fourth and reflecting on the ramifications of using such a weapon, I can't do it.

In addition to the reasons already brought up (about it constituting genocide, the inevitable collateral civilian casualties, the likelihood of later retaliation down the line, and the betrayal of Helghan's values), the Clanners who have surrendered or defected to us, along with the Wolf's Dragoons, would never forgive such an act. It might even infuriate them to the point of going full terrorist against Helghan and ORDI, damn the consequences. And I'm not sure they'd be wrong to do so.

The whole enterprise is just too morally bankrupt. It's better for us to bury it deep and instead look for more conventional responses in the event that the Clans manage to win Terra.
 
Last edited:
CornyBones said:
I really like that Prometheus has made what will likely be one of the most important final decisions in the Quest something so monumental that whichever we choose will be a huge ripple going forward. The fact we're making this choice, the fact that we *can make this choice* speaks to the leagues the Helgan and traveled.

And as the people who were once the target of a genocidal weapon, there is only one true answer.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


:3
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top