The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 592 80.3%
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    737
Since by doing normal actions you will inevitably bring chaos to you.

I specifically said intense and extreme actions and emotions

for example
-you see a mail man shoving bills into your mail box and your annoyed , that wont register in the slightest
-you see a mail man shoving bills into your mail box and he goes back gets a hammer and then uses it to force more bills into the box and now your angry ,still nothing
-you see a mail man shoving bills into your mail box and he goes back gets a hammer and then uses it to force more bills into the box , your even more angry and killed him , its something but not enough
-you see a mail man shoving bills into your mail box and he goes back gets a hammer and then uses it to force more bills into the box , your beyond furious and killed him brutally with a cheese grater ,that might actually make enough of a echo in the warp to attract attention it there were a lot people near by who saw the the act the emotions and outrage they would feel would amplify the effect the more extreme and intense the act the better

the fact that they can show up in different cultures by itself implies they don't need faith. If they needed to be worshiped to act, and where helpless without belief they would not be able to seed themselves across multiple worlds. You can't just make everyone atheist and assume that'll fix the issue, the pattern your describing in no way needs belief to already be around to start it.

To restate my point, chaos does not need human faith to act upon humanity. it helps sure, but they can press on someone who has no pre existing faith.

chaos is already a galactic force they don't need a planets culture to know about them if they are already at the point were they are sentient , also warp predators feed of emotions and actions the more extreme and intense they are the more food they get while even reduced to the level of a mindless animal the warp predator is still aware that it needs to eat in order to continue existing and will do what ever action will get it more and better food like influencing mortals to do more of the actions that empower them the more extreme and intense the more power the warp predator gains until you reach stuff like worship and faith
 
I specifically said intense and extreme actions and emotions
And on a galatic level even if you made the examples several degrees more extreme that's still trillions of people constantly attracting their attention at all the times.

Assuming chaos works like this the only way it would harm chaos realistically is to stop humanity from feeling at all which the truth didn't do, in fact it actively encouraged hatred and pride etc.
 
Something to note much of our information about gods and how they work is from Lin who only figured out as much as he did about them due to Emp's giving him a blessing and some of his own knowledge about the divine though Lin iirc did figure out stuff no one knew before so obviously the Emps didn't know everything. But it is likely that the Emps knew at least a little bit of how with domains gods don't necessarily need faith meaning that the Imperial Truth promoting Atheism wouldn't be the end of whatever plan he had for dealing with the Chaos Gods. Maybe something to do with how the Primarchs are like proto-gods iirc?
 
Something to note much of our information about gods and how they work is from Lin who only figured out as much as he did about them due to Emp's giving him a blessing and some of his own knowledge about the divine though Lin iirc did figure out stuff no one knew before so obviously the Emps didn't know everything. But it is likely that the Emps knew at least a little bit of how with domains gods don't necessarily need faith meaning that the Imperial Truth promoting Atheism wouldn't be the end of whatever plan he had for dealing with the Chaos Gods. Maybe something to do with how the Primarchs are like proto-gods iirc?
I believe this is more a debate about canon than embers...I think.
 
Something to note much of our information about gods and how they work is from Lin who only figured out as much as he did about them due to Emp's giving him a blessing and some of his own knowledge about the divine though Lin iirc did figure out stuff no one knew before so obviously the Emps didn't know everything. But it is likely that the Emps knew at least a little bit of how with domains gods don't necessarily need faith meaning that the Imperial Truth promoting Atheism wouldn't be the end of whatever plan he had for dealing with the Chaos Gods. Maybe something to do with how the Primarchs are like proto-gods iirc?

That is basically starting from the premise that the Emperor is competent. Given that his plan for galactic conquest was 'have twenty super-powered sons each great in their own way and have them conquer it' I would not bet on it. For all his talk of reason and enlightenment the Emepror actions remind one strikingly that this was a man born and bred in the neolithic.
 
1. no
2. it is very plausable, I ahd already considered it
Well, shit.

@Durin A few questions:

1. If we favour-traded Eldar Honourbound favours to Quartus or the Krork, and got them to help defend us instead, with the Eldar transporting their forces to us via the webway, would they be able to deal with the attrition better than the Eldar?

2. Can you tell us approximately what the favour cost of getting enough resources from the Eldar to raise the defensiveness of all our hives/worlds/orbital defences to level 14 would be?

3. What would be the favour cost of getting enough resources to raise the defensiveness level to 10 across the board?

4. In the event that Abaddon wanted to force the Eldar into a war of attrition to defend us, would it be considered okay at that point to assassinate him? Or would they still want to keep him alive to help contain the void dragon?

5. If the Trust was going to be destroyed, would the Eldar be willing to transport refugees to Quartus through the webway, either for free or for a favour?
5.a) How much of our population could they manage?
5.b) If it wasn't free, how much would it cost?

6. Would the Eldar be willing to provide free emergency of the Vault and the Trust's paragons to Quartus?
6.a) If it wasn't free, how much would it cost?

7. Can the planet mind teleport Avernus across the galaxy?
7.a) Could it be persuaded by arguing that teleporting to Quartus would not interrupt its experiments?
7.b) Could it transport the rest of the system in the process?

8. How compatible is termite technology with our own, since it seems to be conventional tech that's really advanced, as opposed to being very esoteric like Eldar/Necron tech?
8.a) If yes, do we know of any termites who might be open to trading with us?
 
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8. How compatible is termite technology with our own, since it seems to be conventional tech that's really advanced?
8.a) If yes, do we know of any termites who might be open to trading with us?
8. Most of their stuff is about the size of grains of sand, so not very.
8.a. No we've never met them and they only live on another continent.
 
That is basically starting from the premise that the Emperor is competent. Given that his plan for galactic conquest was 'have twenty super-powered sons each great in their own way and have them conquer it' I would not bet on it. For all his talk of reason and enlightenment the Emepror actions remind one strikingly that this was a man born and bred in the neolithic.

They were supposed to grow with him as their teacher.

Which, combined with their rapid physical and mental growth, doesn't make his choice that different from the one we took for choosing our heirs on Avernus.
 
That is basically starting from the premise that the Emperor is competent. Given that his plan for galactic conquest was 'have twenty super-powered sons each great in their own way and have them conquer it' I would not bet on it. For all his talk of reason and enlightenment the Emepror actions remind one strikingly that this was a man born and bred in the neolithic.
I have a high distaste for this argument because it is simplistic to a damaging and odious degree. It's throwing out every single ounce of all of his characterisation and replacing it with nothing more than "Old people are dumb and don't change". It's an intolerably shallow view of the character.

For an explanation for why he went with Primarchs, a better one is one that ties into his actual character and personality rather than just his friggin birthday. One of the Emperor's most important traits - and flaws - was his view that he was the greatest human and thus the greatest being in the galaxy. He saw himself as the greatest of humanity's assets, but he alone was't enough to conquer the galaxy; he needed more assets. To that end, he made what he saw as the next best thing to humanity's greatest asset - the Primarchs, who by virtue of being so great and so close to being him would be better at achieving his goals more than anything else.
 
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They were supposed to grow with him as their teacher.

Which, combined with their rapid physical and mental growth, doesn't make his choice that different from the one we took for choosing our heirs on Avernus.

And yet the one he raised the most, the one first found was Horus Lupercal. Does not say much about his teaching abilities does it?

On a more fundamental note, the Primarchs were grown to favor certain traits over others, twenty different clashing perspectives on the world. Their upbringing exaggerated those differences, it did not create them.
 
I have a high distaste for this argument because it is simplistic to a damaging and odious degree. It's throwing out every single ounce of all of his characterisation and replacing it with nothing more than "Old people are dumb and don't change". It's an intolerably shallow view of the character.

For a better explanation for why he went with Primarchs, a better one is one that ties into his actual character and personality rather than just his friggin birthday. One of the Emperor's most important traits - and flaws - was his view that he was the greatest human and thus the greatest being in the galaxy. He saw himself as the greatest of humanity's assets, but he alone was't enough to conquer the galaxy; he needed more assets. To that end, he made what he saw as the next best thing to humanity's greatest asset - the Primarchs, who by virtue of being so great and so close to being him would be better at achieving his goals more than anything else.
Being smart does not mean wise: See Arhra, Silent King, Magnus, many more

The Emperor was crazy biased, and created a workable plan within those biases. It's a testament to his capabilities that '20 Superhumans' was actually a working plan as opposed to being stillborn. Literally. Plus he did not account for the Chaos Gods being able to do shit. Too used to the Aeldari Gods holding back chaos. Then his plan which implicitly relied on him being alive with 20 superhuman people utterly loyal to him fell apart when those assumptions were taken away. Whoops.
 
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I have a high distaste for this argument because it is simplistic to a damaging and odious degree. It's throwing out every single ounce of all of his characterisation and replacing it with nothing more than "Old people are dumb and don't change". It's an intolerably shallow view of the character.

For a better explanation for why he went with Primarchs, a better one is one that ties into his actual character and personality rather than just his friggin birthday. One of the Emperor's most important traits - and flaws - was his view that he was the greatest human and thus the greatest being in the galaxy. He saw himself as the greatest of humanity's assets, but he alone was't enough to conquer the galaxy; he needed more assets. To that end, he made what he saw as the next best thing to humanity's greatest asset - the Primarchs, who by virtue of being so great and so close to being him would be better at achieving his goals more than anything else.

The great man obsession was a lot more common in the ancient world, so that's hardly exclusive.
 
The great man obsession was a lot more common in the ancient world, so that's hardly exclusive.
My point stands. Tie the creation of the Primarchs to what the Emperor is actually about and who he is fundamentally as a character, not what is ultimately a factoid.

(As an aside, I'm not sure if "obsession" is warranted. It implies that great man theory is questionable or wrong, or at least not as important is a person believes it to be, but within the context of 40k it is absolutely very important. A character within 40k believing and acting upon great man theory is being logical and reasonable.)
 
And yet the one he raised the most, the one first found was Horus Lupercal. Does not say much about his teaching abilities does it?
Actually Horus is one of the better points towards Emps being a pretty good teacher, although how much of that was Horus genuinely being a really nice guy as well is up in the air.

Dude had his flaws, but there was a reason he was beloved by just about everyone before his fall.
 
My point stands. Tie the creation of the Primarchs to what the Emperor is actually about and who he is fundamentally as a character, not what is ultimately a factoid.

(As an aside, I'm not sure if "obsession" is warranted. It implies that great man theory is questionable or wrong, or at least not as important is a person believes it to be, but within the context of 40k it is absolutely very important. A character within 40k believing and acting upon great man theory is being logical and reasonable.)

Hmm... fair point, people are a lot more great in 40K than in our own history, however the Federation of Planets, which seems to have been some kind of heavily institutional state indicates that the best of human history was not lived under the shadow of any great man.
 
On the Future we can Create
On the Future we can Create

The festivities of the Eldar seemed like they would drag on without end, as was only appropriate for a people who in so short a time had graduated from between the extremes of hope and despair. But, the galaxy does not care for anyone's celebrations and within the depths of the Black Library a meeting was being arranged for the most ancient still living within the galaxy.

Ceogorath, taring himself away from his performance of the ballad of renewal, who sat contented upon a throne of coloured paper and wood, the burning shame of failure removed from his form as he had at last succeeded in one of the most critical tasks of his lord.

Besides him, still weakened and convalescing was Isha upon a throne of verdant living vines. Her form was strained, her power still weak compared to her once overwhelming radiance, but behind her eyes lurked a greater strength of self and being than any other. Upon her lap rested the youngest member of their entourage, the Child of Hatred, asleep and dreaming as Isha stroked her hair and smiled down upon her, every brush of her hands cleansing some small part of the plague from her newest, yet somehow least innocent child.

Last of the Eldar present, and carrying on the memories of an ancient king was Ynnead, the Goddess of Death atop her throne of ashes, the spear of her forefather by her side. The new queen of the Gods, so strong, so young and learning still sat with an almost nervous tension and with wide-eyed wonder at the victory they had achieved, when her entire life had been half successes and true defeats.

Standing to the side, at parade rest was a vast Krork, Grand Marshal Gherozane. A titanic figure of gleaming scarred green skin whose uniform shone with the reflected light of medals, each of which bore the scars of their awarding, while his posture was straight enough that not even a micrometre of him was lax. His face was lined, and in these moments was still forced into a veil of sadness, for although the operation had been a victory overall, he had sent his boys away and less than half had returned alive.

And finally, the Ancient One, who sat regally on the floor, the fresh white scars he had taken in holding back the tides of Nurgle stark against the faded lattice that already marked him and his blue scales. Upon his lap rested his spear, whose aura seemed to grow ever stronger in the presence of fellow creations of the Old Ones, as for a brief moment all five of them sat in reverential silence.

Here, they were possibly the oldest living beings in the galaxy. The last children of their ancient forefathers, who had only just started to secure something from the wreckage of the past.

"Well then, what now?" Ceogorath's question for once seemed to be in earnest, at least by the God's own standards, yet even the Ancient One raised an eyebrow at the God of Acting in response, who raised his hands to defend himself, mask a grin.

"I'm serious. I've made plans for what happened if" and at that he seemed to swallow deeply, emotion tugging at its heart, "if this day occurred. But now that its happened it is rather different than I expected."

"That is true." The Grandmarshal spoke, his voice a low comforting grumble that resonated through the warded room. "The actions of the Necrontyr were...unexpected. To say nothing of the success all fronts achieved. No this was a victory beyond our wildest dreams, as sad as that is to say given the price that was paid."

"Tzeench should be our new focus I think, at least while Chaos is reeling." Ynnead pondered placing her head upon her hand in a thinking pose, but Gherozane shook his head in response.

"You're not wrong, but new threats are coming Ma'am. The Dragon and the Destroyer grow every day the Dragon especially. With the Black Imperium reeling" and with that he glanced towards the Ancient One who simply smiled back at him "with the destruction of Cadlanithica, I fear their despot's attention will need to be refocused."

He sighed and continued his posture seeming to beg to sag. "I fear after the damage my task force has taken I will need some support to ensure that I retain recent gains."

Ynnead nodded. "You shall have it my friend, it is my hope that now we can give our aid more freely." She glanced towards Isha, who simply smiled back at her. "I do not believe that rebirth is something that should be handed out freely, but I have many deserving of such an honour." At that, her eyes darkened and she fell silent, murmuring "too many."

"I am familiar with this, all too familiar in fact." Isha's eyes looked towards the past, in remembrance of the great war that had scorched the heavens. "Worry not Ynnead, I remember this dance and struggle. I performed it with our kin who held the title of death before you. At least you are more reasonable than our long lost friend could be."

With that Isha returned to her tending, a soft smile breaking across her face as a pure white flower grew from the Child's hair, blossoming into quiet radiance.

"That being said there are two issues I feel must be addressed, before we tackle the Squiggoth in the room."

Ceogorath looked at all of them one by one. "First what do we do with the Triumphirate? I'll freely admit I never expected to see Zahhak after the first time we scouted the palace of plague but even reduce to three...well they're now powerful assets more so than ever. And their story is one that must be remembered."

Gherozane shrugged. "They approached me and mine with the offer of allowing those under our protection to worship them in exchange for aid. At the time I did not trust them, but these survivors...Unity and Defiance are close to our hearts and Free Will is not too far behind. I would be willing to allow it."

"There have also been mutterings amongst our own people, of adding them to our numbers as at least provisional members" state Ceogorath. "I'm not opposed to the idea on principle, but I'll talk to Vulkan, Corvus and the Tau/Secundus alliance first."

"Second though. Ahriman. His attack on the Black Library and the progress he is making towards his own ascension is...worrisome. To say nothing of how Tzeench's ritual compounds our own fears of his ascension. We have to devote a task force to him, I'll see if Ridcully has anytime too."

As he was about to move on Ynnead spoke "What of the Trust? What of the Foundry? They have exposed themselves to great danger, for us yet you make no mention of them."

The Ancient One, who had up till then remained silent spoke at last. "The World prepares. Nurgle will come, with more force than it ever has, but it will be into the mouth of hell. Never has the World had so much forewarning. Your aid will be appreciated, and not turned away. But, make no mistake Nurgle will bleed. But, for the humans...Abaddon will not forget. It is not in his nature. He will look, demand answers and dispatch his forces. Look, interfere. Watch. If worst comes they will call for aid."

However, he turned to stare down Isha with a stare that seemed to make her freeze. "Fifty-Nine million years ago I did not ask out of respect for your plight. I am patient, but the forces of the cosmos march against us. If you have any gratitude for my part, then I beg you to try and restore my long lost masters."

He fell silent again, but Gherozane spoke afterwards regardless. "He makes a point, what of the 'special' assets? They're pieces on the board now and in more prominence than ever."

Ceogorath shrugged, before speaking. "The Lion wishes only to return and for us to aid the World where we can for now. Given the competence of his kindred, that's hardily a trying request. Ridcully is unclear. He's looked further beyond and marches up the path, at quite the pace, but we'll keep in contact with him. The Ancient One...well" and looked pointedly at the lizard sitting placidly close to him "As for Areatha she's the complex one in the end. She's stepped onto the path herself, and intends to walk it and to aid us although she will return to the foundry to prepare for Nurgle's attack. However, her path brings her into conflict with Tzeench and has made her a potential candidate."

The God sighed before shrugging colourful shoulders once more. "Allowances will, of course, be made for their requests."

"Then finally let us come to Necrons."

The Ancient One's pronunciation seemed to dim the lights of the room, as they all frowned at the actions of both their oldest foe.

"Nobody saw this coming. And its hard to draw anything definitive from this. All the Tomb Worlds almost all the Necrons Szarkehk used were infected with either the Flayer Virus or the Destroyer Virus. He was looking for an opportunity to be rid of them. It was an efficient strategy and one that inflicted more damage with less cost than any other."

The Laughing God fell silent Gherozane nodding, his face contorted in a scowl. "The King's stratagems have never been in doubt, its his intentions that worry me. Is this the start of an attempt to take the galaxy? A sign of peace and truce, a display of power to us? There are too many unknowns."

"I think we should take it as a sign of at least non-aggression," Ynnead spoke quickly as she could see the Grand Marshal was restraining himself from an outburst. "If nothing else his priority are threats such as chaos. Otherwise, he would have attacked one of us whilst we assaulted a ritual. Instead, he attacked Slaanesh's the ritual where he both had the greatest advantage an was linked to my people. I do not know if we can trust him, but I do believe he is trying to tell us something to this effect."

The ancients of the room frowned but at the same time nodded, as Isha simply smiled and nodded at her far younger compatriot.

This was the first time so many ancient being's had met to decide the fate of the galaxy in many millions of years.

It was also the first time any of them even considered that they might actually win.
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@Durin
One final thing
 
On a different note, what does everyone think of the latest 40k lore concerning the Emperor? I don't want to derail the thread or anything, but I'd be interested to hear what people think, even it's basically something like: "Oh God, why?" "Dan Abnett needs to be purged for heresy." "This is fucking stupid and makes no sense whatsoever."

Here's a quick summary:
  • The Emperor was involved in a massive power struggle/secret war against other perpetuals right from the get go.
  • Over time he gradually became more and more arrogant, power hungry, and megalomaniacal, and sought to subjugate all of humanity.
  • He created the Primarchs as artificial perpetuals after he alienated all the perpetuals who had previously followed him, because they were horrified by what he planned to do.
  • To create the Primarchs he needes another source of Perpetual DNA, and so the Primarchs essentially have a biological mother.
  • He also had a natural child with her, who served as the template for space marines.
  • After she grew disillusioned it was she, not the Chaos gods, who scattered the Primarchs to try and get them away from the Emperor.
Saturnine War leaks
 
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