- Location
- madison
actually that's just chaos cultist. other types of heresy just get you executed, there is a legal distinction between falling to chaos and other forms of heresy.
The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
actually that's just chaos cultist. other types of heresy just get you executed, there is a legal distinction between falling to chaos and other forms of heresy.
- Location
- western US
I'm pretty sure its canon that the inconsistentcys between "official" wh40k releases is due to propaganda by various IC partys wanting to spread lies....
I just don't see any way for this argument about whether and to what degree, the emps is responcable for what....and what likelyhood emps has of reeming himself (or if thats even possable).....of actually going any where productive. this is not a argument like what strat to go with for our turns where we can ask durin for evidence/facts to argue one way or another....everyone is just "contrubuting" evidecne from various "offical" sources (some of which are only inconsistently consisered canon) and getting mad at each other.
so can we stop arguing about what/who did/believed/said what? I thinks its pretty much established canon that we just simply don't know what is canon in this verse for that period due to how much propaganda and lies have been spread about that period (and before).
its strongly suggested by various statements by durin that the arguments WE HAVE impact our character....and I don't see this one helping him.
we are going to have to simply wait for emps because thats who our characters are....we are not going to be able to decide OOC that our goals IC are bad and break them...durin gave us our PC and he's not going to let us be inconsistent with who they are to a sigificant degree....so any arguments about...well that stuff, is just pointless atm (and might be prompting durin to not buff rotbarts piety since clearly rotbarts not handling all of this well....so who knows!).
we just are going to have to hope that emps is a decent person, regardless of what he has done previously...cas I think we should all agree we need every asset we can get a hold of...especally one that has proven capable of not just slowing, but actually holding back The Dragon.
I just don't see any way for this argument about whether and to what degree, the emps is responcable for what....and what likelyhood emps has of reeming himself (or if thats even possable).....of actually going any where productive. this is not a argument like what strat to go with for our turns where we can ask durin for evidence/facts to argue one way or another....everyone is just "contrubuting" evidecne from various "offical" sources (some of which are only inconsistently consisered canon) and getting mad at each other.
so can we stop arguing about what/who did/believed/said what? I thinks its pretty much established canon that we just simply don't know what is canon in this verse for that period due to how much propaganda and lies have been spread about that period (and before).
its strongly suggested by various statements by durin that the arguments WE HAVE impact our character....and I don't see this one helping him.
we are going to have to simply wait for emps because thats who our characters are....we are not going to be able to decide OOC that our goals IC are bad and break them...durin gave us our PC and he's not going to let us be inconsistent with who they are to a sigificant degree....so any arguments about...well that stuff, is just pointless atm (and might be prompting durin to not buff rotbarts piety since clearly rotbarts not handling all of this well....so who knows!).
we just are going to have to hope that emps is a decent person, regardless of what he has done previously...cas I think we should all agree we need every asset we can get a hold of...especally one that has proven capable of not just slowing, but actually holding back The Dragon.
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Yes worship the goddess of free will at gun point
"No! I refuse!"
...Yes. Yes. That's the spirit. Such venerable worship!
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Dude I was giving an example from the same freaking primarch!
Against the rather obviously evil Laehr "Oh yeah lets make them a protectorate" against the peaceful coexisting Disaporex who only wanted to be left alone and had humans to vouch for em, oh boiii that can't stand.
And Horus isn't categorical that's just looking for excuses and you know it.
No we do not know that's the approach the DAoT had, we have no idea what the DAoT's approach was we have only the contradictory imperial propaganda of "humans were the dominant yes yes" and "as soon as we were weakened all those puny evil xenos back stabbed us yes yes."
This is not minor its the entire species.
Sigh. TBF I personally like Durin's solution to that particular problem with the whole the off button was literally killed. Works too since canonically the Nightbringer did kill the krork.
Anyhow we're not getting anywhere I've got to write/go to bed, so lets call it a night here.
IIRC it is canon that they explain any retcon as "twas merely a tzeenchian plot."
- Location
- western US
please clarify this statement wombat. I don't understand....
- Location
- Africa
you confuse survival with existence , the emotions that form the chaos gods would have continued to feed them allowing them to exist regardless of the imperial truth but the narrative the belief that they were any thing other than concentrations of mindless emotional energy that allows them to actually do things with said energy would have been cut off by the imperial truth effectively lobotomizing the chaos gods
- Location
- western US
I'm not sure where your getting the idea that chaos can't act without people giving them a role via their beliefs about them...
thats not true, nurgle is empowered by AND capable of enteracting with mortal through the diseases that spread through them (physical or not).
- Location
- western US
oh boy...that just prompted a weird moment where I go "huh, maybe this could be the basis for a weird, sacrifical soceity worshiping freedom....where one portion is constantly kidnapping/torturing and harassing the other portion for NOT worshiping the goddess of freedom....but at the same time as that portion deciding to NOT do so, and thus empowering her anyway"...
and now I'm like "that would be so weird and paradoxical...which unfortuntely fits WH far too well...... *sigh*"
HanEmpire
Delicious
@Durin:
1) are the Sphinxes still sitting around in Duat?
2) how bored are they these days?
3) how would they like to supervise psyker lessons and trials, teaching humans to better control Warp energies? If they can't come to our cities our psykers can take field trips out there with adventurer guilds.
1) are the Sphinxes still sitting around in Duat?
2) how bored are they these days?
3) how would they like to supervise psyker lessons and trials, teaching humans to better control Warp energies? If they can't come to our cities our psykers can take field trips out there with adventurer guilds.
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GhostKing 666
Bringing Nightmares to life evey minute
Because people have the belief that there is a reason for the disease. That it's punishment by god or a curse by some demon instead of just the result of tiny little bacteria and viruses and that all the pain and suffering is just a fact of life in an cold, sterile universe.
With the Imperial Truth Nurgle would still exist, but without stories giving him a narrative that he can slot himself into as the cause and propagator, he can't act because even with disease and plague still happening people wouldn't give him the narrative he needs to influence things. He'd just be mass of power with no mind or identity of it's own.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
The Krork are the ork's off switch.
To put another way Krork are the adult forms of orks, but with out Krork orks can't grow up.
Normally they grow up, calm down and well...don't stay as giant children for all time.
But that's still not how it works.
If they were defined by narrative then chaos wouldn't exist, instead they would be billions of split stories not Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeench or Slaanesh instead they'd be billions of individual, distinctive creatures because across a vast galaxy stories and narrative diverge so strongly. Instead Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeench as we know them have existed relatively unchanging for millions of years as again Be'lakor can attest.
Similarly, stories and belief are unneeded if its just narrative which is what they need then just living creates those narrative through anthropomorphisation, beliefs in systems as opposed to religions and more.
And if true, this still wouldn't work because it relies on people being rational.
Humans are not rational and generally speaking, we cannot be trained to be rational especially when faced with such an utterly bleak narrative.
I know very well what makes up my computer I still anthropomorphism the heck out of it when I'm annoyed with it, it makes me feel better.
Besides the narrative simply changes then, it becomes theses microscopic incredibly powerful bacteria in the fight against humanity it doesn't stop being a narrative cause all things are inherently narrative.
Even then I still disagree, Nurgle can act fine without needing the narrative of being the plague bringer, one of the key points of the chaos gods was that after they were born they reached out to the materium.
Again they don't need our belief or narratives to do stuff never have never will.
- Location
- western US
I was going to post basically this. whatever ppl might want to think about wh40k doesn't apply to THIS VERSE....durin has created his own off-shoot of wh40k with its own rules and changes (or rather, he is extending the one somebody ELSE made called "the nightmare to come")...and one of those changes that he has spesificlly made...is the existence of "The Sea" which is the true source of chaos and the original reason the chaos gods were either born, or at least what made them insane enough to BE "chaos". The Sea is fully capable of slowly driving ANY psykic being with a connection to it, insane and THEN empower it to act on reality....what domains are connected to The Sea is still a open question as we only can guess "if it sounds insane/chaotic"
also, the thing about the krork....no wonder the orks hate them....no child wants to be disciplined.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I was actually arguing more from the canon side of things. GhostKing's made a distinction before about how this doesn't apply to the Long Night verse
No point debating stuff laid down by God after all.
- Location
- madison
I'm somewhat dubious of this proportion, as chaos maintains a high degree of consistency across isolated cultures that would have no way to share stories. Further, chaos is clearly older than makind, so the idea its somehow reliant upon mankind and mankind alone is frankly absurd.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
- Location
- Brazil, Minas gerais
(I note that I very ignorant of warhammer and 99% I know comes from here and the wiki so take my post with enough distrust^^)
The only post I will do of this discussion of the emperor and his sons is that the authors of the books literally can't show all elements of a character even if they tried they are only humans and there only so much paper.
So is better to just think the 'key elements' of a character and use them together with the other characters and decide how they would act together and etc. otherwise I would take a world of salt to believe some things in the books, so I can accept things happening but not how the information got to us.
Because engineered super babies growing in alien worlds, bypassing many normal maturation process and probably with different instincts in their DNA than a standard humans. And their thought process would be bizarre even without they being touch by the warp and having untold daemons interested in them. Would make for complete alien POVs in the books.
The emperor is older than the countries, is the union of many old psykers and have enough intelligence and experience that only a powerful super intelligence being could ever tried to understand him.
So he and his sons books are really just 'shadows' of what their key elements should show us.
Otherwise things like the battle for Armageddon number of orcs or how much better are the ultramarines would too bizarre without lots of warp shenanigans to explain.
Oh, and all big players in the books would be mary sue/gary stu.
The only post I will do of this discussion of the emperor and his sons is that the authors of the books literally can't show all elements of a character even if they tried they are only humans and there only so much paper.
So is better to just think the 'key elements' of a character and use them together with the other characters and decide how they would act together and etc. otherwise I would take a world of salt to believe some things in the books, so I can accept things happening but not how the information got to us.
Because engineered super babies growing in alien worlds, bypassing many normal maturation process and probably with different instincts in their DNA than a standard humans. And their thought process would be bizarre even without they being touch by the warp and having untold daemons interested in them. Would make for complete alien POVs in the books.
The emperor is older than the countries, is the union of many old psykers and have enough intelligence and experience that only a powerful super intelligence being could ever tried to understand him.
So he and his sons books are really just 'shadows' of what their key elements should show us.
Otherwise things like the battle for Armageddon number of orcs or how much better are the ultramarines would too bizarre without lots of warp shenanigans to explain.
Oh, and all big players in the books would be mary sue/gary stu.
- Location
- Africa
let me have shot at explaining it , chaos gain power from belief and emotions the more extreme and intense the better , it not unheard of for the chaos gods to be worshiped under different names by different cultures in fact there are chaos cultists who have never even known the names of the chaos gods but worshiped them non the less . my theory goes like this by doing actions that attract the attention of the chaos gods or there servants normally something involved with whatever emotion they feed off again the more extreme the better you open your self to chaos influence it starts out small little harmless things than when they become the new normal the influence pushes you to decide to do something slightly more again and again this happens each time more extreme and intense than the last with the influence growing in power until its a noise you can't ignore , a whisper you want to hear and them a voice you must obey , those voices carry orders ,secrets ,instructions ,ideas and plans this how chaos corruption works and why chaos maintains a high degree if consistency . at least that is how I think it works
- Location
- western US
it is definitely one of the ways.
another way is somebody in a moment of desperation calls out for help either purposefully or accidentally and that opens a door for something to enter....and it doesn't need to be the thing the person called out for (if they even did so purposefully).
GhostKing 666
Bringing Nightmares to life evey minute
It's called masks. No matter what "mask" the local culture believes, they are still worshipping the same "entity". One culture's god of the hunt, another culture's god of war and a third culture's god of honor, ultimately they are still worshiping the warp entity the Imperium calls Khorne.
Look, just because you don't like the fact that GW started importing the Warp's cosmology from Warhammer Fantasy into Warhammer 40k, it doesn't change the fact that's what they've done. Because the current concepts of Chaos Gods/Daemons/Neverborn being bundles of emotions and warp energy taking on "masks" shaped by the beliefs, dreams and nightmares of mortals goes all the way back to the part of Realms of Sorcery second edition where it describes what the gods and daemons where formed of back when Chaos first entered the Warhammer Fantasy world. It's literally just the same concept, just imported over into 40k.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
The issue with that theory is that it just comes back around again to chaos being eternal.
Since by doing normal actions you will inevitably bring chaos to you.
I do think that's dumb because fundamentally the two are different settings and it doesn't work when blown up to 40K's scale, I also don't like taking as absolute truth a book from a completely different fucking setting that's 4 editions old and is barely older than I am and even in the very fucking universe it is written in, is based on the unsure suppositions of wizards taught by a man who didn't teach them everything in an accelerated programme to make human weapons.
I certainly don't think that GW'ds is using the same damn lore to explain it given how its nearly 2 decades old and they're on the fourth goddamn edition of the Warhammer fantasy RPG.
On another note I used love that book, now I hate it because people keep ascribing it as infalliable.
So just because you think GW'ds trying to turn 40K into a crossover doesn't change the fact that's your opinion because aside from that stupid farsqueeker nonsense that's never been a thing and if its then chaos is the exact same across infinite universes so this entire debate was a complete and utter waste.
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- Location
- madison
the fact that they can show up in different cultures by itself implies they don't need faith. If they needed to be worshiped to act, and where helpless without belief they would not be able to seed themselves across multiple worlds. You can't just make everyone atheist and assume that'll fix the issue, the pattern your describing in no way needs belief to already be around to start it.
To restate my point, chaos does not need human faith to act upon humanity. it helps sure, but they can press on someone who has no pre existing faith.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
In fact not being faithful to a god means that you have less resistance, making it easier for Chaos to get it's hands on you.
e: Not to mince words: By going full Emperor we have been effectively feeding souls to Chaos.
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- Location
- madison
Depends on the god honestly, but in general having faith in something is a useful mental defense.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I believe in the sanctity of a good curry and that I should have gone to bed hours ago.
Good night hopefully.
One more sacrifice (not like that.)
