Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Probably and we do have nine of them (albeit only 3 that will screw with everything they have.)
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
- Location
- western US
wait, what?
I thought we only had one super-adapting poison (only way it doesn't get insta-evolve-countered by the nids right?) and we already used it?
is that old action from way before about to pay off TWICE?
HWWO's transcendent trait + crit roll apparently translate to EPIC shenanigans.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
No these are the poisons Max made, they're probably not as powerful as the ones the Nynye made, I doubt they're going to be killing command battleships, but they're still derived from the Norn Queen and yeah. Getting the Norn queen was basically a cheat code to winning the war near as I can tell.
- Location
- western US
ah, point.
I would point out that the nids can probably use their biomancy to forceably slow the progression of the poison (or just out-right cure it), but it would still be worth it.
I need a nega-verse quest omake on this battle please!
- Location
- Elsewhere
Well the poison is produced from one of their queens so its super effective. But they'll figure out fixes real quick.
- Location
- western US
next chance we get, we should send the poison/nid-queen-disection-notes to the other human policys. Yes it won't work on other nids on its own since they all have different biologys/evolve-trees, but I figure it will help them in the case they try something similar in the future since there ARE similaritys among all nids.
- Location
- Elsewhere
Conclave probs, theses strains are very genetically different at this point.
- Location
- western US
yeah, but getting a full corpse-disection of a nid-queen was pretty big for the imperium and it still is.
sad we can't just insta-share everything we have tho
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The .99 synapse bonus (down from 2.0) is already including deploying ground forces.
We actually reduced their ships synapse needs faster than we killed their synapse production. We eliminated 49.4% of their synapse capacity which is very good, but also 64.3% of their total ships in synapse consumption terms. They had 1120/487 = 2.30 before (synapse bonus is capped at 2.0). Now they have 567/174 = 3.26 (still capped at 2.0). So their ship synapse bonus would have remained at the 2.0 cap before deploying ground forces. This is largely a result of their battleships surviving better than the rest of their forces.
If we figure that they are deploying ground forces of size based on bringing their synapse ratio to around 1 (which I think is likely given we know that they are limited by bandwidth of deployment rather than amount of bioforms carried), then compared to the fleet they had before we face something like 37% less forces than we would have if they'd all made it through. That's going to make the ground battle a lot less dangerous.
- Location
- western US
wait, ONLY 37% fewer? I recall that the nid's fleet being huge....doesn't this mean they are going to bring like....10X our army's size in forces now or something?
(I think I'm misunderstanding something)
Well we brought in our forces over the course of a couple years. We have way more men here than we would be able to bring in one landing wave. We've brought around 90 billion troops.
We don't know how large a force each point of synapse control translates into in ground forces either. They've got 400 points of ground forces instead of more like 630 points of ground forces (depending on rounding it could have been a bit more or bit less). But without knowing what 1 point translates to we don't know what the numbers will be like.
I suspect that we'll have at least similar numbers to them to start with, because their whole thing is that killing them is basically meaningless as they can recycle and replace their ground troops basically indefinitely. So they're going to grind us down gradually. As long as they maintain synapse ships they can keep replacing lost troops while we can't replace ours in battlefield timescales.
The whole object of this battle is to hold on long enough for their fleet to get ground down and/or reinforcement fleets arrive. Which makes the orbital silos extremely valuable to us.
- Location
- madison
The limiting factor by a massive margin is bandwidth. It would cost relatively little to have deep reserves of ready-made bioforms to drop. Depleting biomass by killing ground forms is of marginal use, it is unlikely we could run them out, and unlikely we will make a dent before reinforcements arrive.
- Location
- western US
I recall reading that these nid's are not going the swarm-route but instead the ultra-high value psyker unit route and the creatures landing will each have a significant portion of the shadow-in-the-warp's focus on them.
- Location
- madison
yep. but it doesn't die with them. Bandwidth is a supply cap not a per-unit cost. They can maintain up to that many units at a time but its no more expensive to replace them.
- Location
- western US
yeah, thats what I figured.
I was clarifing for the sake of getting more people to know this.
- Location
- Back in Cali
Then what is the plan to win? If we aren't trying to make them use up their supply of biomass and the synaptic units are the ships in orbit how will we win?
- Location
- madison
there are two more fleets that will be hitting the trust soon. the empire of ashes fleets are going to be just harassing them to avoid losses, then they will move to reinforce via webway. We have to hold the ground long enough for that to happen.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
Hold out long enough to win in space either with your current ships or with reinforcements
- Location
- western US
that sucks...kinda makes you wonder why the nids diden't go this approach sooner...its not like the imperial fleet had much of a chance to counter THESE nids in space even with overwielming numbers.
guess the nids got a upgrade from the extra-galatic war.
They probably didn't do this sooner for the same reason that every Tyranid creature isn't synaptic node in their network. At a guess, something about their psyker and synaptic forms are more expensive to make and/or maintain as compared to the skittering hordes of their normal bioforms. The Tyranids will only evolve into more elite forms like these when they're well and truly pressed, because otherwise they'll end up eating through their internal resources too quickly.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
That or legitimately nothing pushed them far enough to develop these abilities, and typically speaking just refining the armour and base weaponry of the swarms was a totally workable plan against most groups, up until the Necrons came and kicked their shit in until they eventually broke out of that rut.
Remember, Nids use evolutionary adaptation to develop countermeasures, and evolution has always been a game of 'good enough'.
Remember, Nids use evolutionary adaptation to develop countermeasures, and evolution has always been a game of 'good enough'.
- Location
- Australia
They also rely heavily on taking genes from their prey. Grabbing useful traits from creatures they consume is a big part of the tyranids' strategy, because it gives them improvements that they can't receive without a very high amount of resources, time, and difficulty. It was only the incomprehensibly massive scale of the super hive fleet that it was at all realistically possible to develop these advanced traits ex nihilo. The hive fleets of 40k simply would not have been able to create these newer, more powerful strains.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Okay, so. To lay out my thoughts I'm gonna go through my decisions in this plan to try and make my inevitable failures in planning to be more obvious.
First off, this isn't a real war, it's a survival mode. If we had the ability to guarantee we'd hold out until naval reinforcements arrived while killing zero kids personally, I'd take it without hesitation. We cannot hope to wear them down on the ground side of things, and since the only thing limiting the Nids is throughput they're worthless to kill.
Secondly, biomass is worthless within the timescale we're operating on right now. They make new ships within the timespan of weeks and we can't hope to ever kill enough Nids on the ground to make a dent in their biomass supplies anyway. This would mean that we could staff the cities with skeleton crews to chew away at the naval battles and just take the hits if holding ground wasn't also a vital component of success here.
Thirdly, I suspect the Nids will be attacking in spearheads, hitting the more lightly defended areas and ripping through them with the power of ludicrous force concentration. It'd fit their new adapted MO and, in general, the Necrons probably punished spreading out their forces via the medium of stamping them into the ground. Man, thank gosh for N Steps Ahead letting us have retroactively put hero units in vulnerable zones.
This boils down to my plan for moderate defences for our non-core cities and hives. Letting the Nids just roll over the cities would waste the troops and secondarily lose pieces of orbital support for every place destroyed, so some defences would be optimal, but in general the Nids will be hitting us at our main base and once they do we're gonna be facing the issue that a majority of our non-hero troops will be stuck ambling in their own, far less vital cities, while the Nids hammer us at our core.
That said, writing it out it seems like pretty much no matter what happens we're gonna be eating overcrowding penalties. I doubt they'll offset the fact that we'll have legions of gunwalls, but that does make me lean more towards spreading troops out to the borders. So I'll lean towards stacking troops to the outer regions anyway.
Sadly, I don't have anything really clever to consider adding to the plan, so chuck me any suggestions you can think of.
[X] Plan: Rolling With The Punches
-[X] Garrison each city with a Corps(30 Armies total)- Enough troops to operate the cities fixed defences and to hold for a period against even a sustained assault. Additional AA and anti-orbital firepower while the city holds.
-[X] Garrison each Hive with half a Army Group (460 Armies total)- Enough troops to operate the hives fixed defences and to hold for an extended period against even a sustained assault. Additional AA and anti-orbital firepower while the hive holds.
--[X] Garrison Hives with Mixed forces- Fixed defences have full impact, will hold for reduced period.
-[X] Write In- Stand your ground, shoot with all AA in range, use air only to prevent enemy landing within your lines, and use one of the generalised Anti-Ground Tyranid poisons.
First off, this isn't a real war, it's a survival mode. If we had the ability to guarantee we'd hold out until naval reinforcements arrived while killing zero kids personally, I'd take it without hesitation. We cannot hope to wear them down on the ground side of things, and since the only thing limiting the Nids is throughput they're worthless to kill.
Secondly, biomass is worthless within the timescale we're operating on right now. They make new ships within the timespan of weeks and we can't hope to ever kill enough Nids on the ground to make a dent in their biomass supplies anyway. This would mean that we could staff the cities with skeleton crews to chew away at the naval battles and just take the hits if holding ground wasn't also a vital component of success here.
Thirdly, I suspect the Nids will be attacking in spearheads, hitting the more lightly defended areas and ripping through them with the power of ludicrous force concentration. It'd fit their new adapted MO and, in general, the Necrons probably punished spreading out their forces via the medium of stamping them into the ground. Man, thank gosh for N Steps Ahead letting us have retroactively put hero units in vulnerable zones.
This boils down to my plan for moderate defences for our non-core cities and hives. Letting the Nids just roll over the cities would waste the troops and secondarily lose pieces of orbital support for every place destroyed, so some defences would be optimal, but in general the Nids will be hitting us at our main base and once they do we're gonna be facing the issue that a majority of our non-hero troops will be stuck ambling in their own, far less vital cities, while the Nids hammer us at our core.
That said, writing it out it seems like pretty much no matter what happens we're gonna be eating overcrowding penalties. I doubt they'll offset the fact that we'll have legions of gunwalls, but that does make me lean more towards spreading troops out to the borders. So I'll lean towards stacking troops to the outer regions anyway.
Sadly, I don't have anything really clever to consider adding to the plan, so chuck me any suggestions you can think of.
[X] Plan: Rolling With The Punches
-[X] Garrison each city with a Corps(30 Armies total)- Enough troops to operate the cities fixed defences and to hold for a period against even a sustained assault. Additional AA and anti-orbital firepower while the city holds.
-[X] Garrison each Hive with half a Army Group (460 Armies total)- Enough troops to operate the hives fixed defences and to hold for an extended period against even a sustained assault. Additional AA and anti-orbital firepower while the hive holds.
--[X] Garrison Hives with Mixed forces- Fixed defences have full impact, will hold for reduced period.
-[X] Write In- Stand your ground, shoot with all AA in range, use air only to prevent enemy landing within your lines, and use one of the generalised Anti-Ground Tyranid poisons.
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