The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
Also, we might want to look into leaning into grand cruisers, they seem to be in the sweet spot of big enough to mount lots of launches, but small enough you bring them in big numbers. they are providing most of our battleship sized torpedos by a fair amount.
Several of us have been arguing for a while that we should up-size our fleet. Escorts don't seem to be a meaningful threat to super-capitals even in vast numbers and they die like flies.
Dropping escorts and focusing on grand cruisers and battleships seems the way to go.
 
Several of us have been arguing for a while that we should up-size our fleet. Escorts don't seem to be a meaningful threat to super-capitals even in vast numbers and they die like flies.
Dropping escorts and focusing on grand cruisers and battleships seems the way to go.

that's a bad idea. Escorts are not there to damage the enemy ships, they are there to soak fire. weapons divide their damage into ship categories, and almost everything* below BB wastes a decent percent of its fire on escorts, and most BB weapons have to burn through your cruisers to get at your super caps, something they will do faster with cruiserweight weapons helping rather than wasting time on escorts. Escorts also provide the bulk of a fleets AA. Any damage your escort screen does to the enemies escort screen is just gravy, they are there mostly to act as ablative armor for ships you care about and provide AA fire to chew through enemy strike fighters.

TLDR escorts are your fleets crumple zone. they die in droves to shield your cruisers that are the smallest ships that do actual damage.


*that lances don't do this seems to be on of their major benefits.
 
Getting rid of escorts would be a terrible idea, it doesn't matter if they don't do much damage, their role isn't even to dish out damage in the first place.
 
TLDR escorts are your fleets crumple zone. they die in droves to shield your cruisers that are the smallest ships that do actual damage.
Except they have no armour. A BB has good odds of tanking more damage than its value in escorts while also being able to deal damage.

Saying we should keep Escorts in our fleet is like saying we should keep our PDF in regular armour so they can be meat-shields for the power-armoured Helguard.
 
Except they have no armour. A BB has good odds of tanking more damage than its value in escorts while also being able to deal damage.

Saying we should keep Escorts in our fleet is like saying we should keep our PDF in regular armour so they can be meat-shields for the power-armoured Helguard.
they are a very cheap way of forcing the enemy to put fire-power in a direction that is NOT targeting your big ships....

lets put it this way, if you fight a 1v1 battle against someone...but you have ablity to split a small part of yourself into other smaller/weaker versions of your self that you know the enemy will be forced to target....it can very easily be worth the relatively small amount of resources you put into it. because even the few seconds you gain with it (or more) can be enormous

also, as someone else said...you don't want to leave yourself open to fighter-craft....and escorts are much more effective for that.(edit: at least intuitively speaking...I don't know what stats durin has)

furthermore. having at least SOME ships that are of a higher mobility can easily come in handy in chasing enemy craft down once the battle is over and they are routing.....or at least some ships escaping if YOU have to rout....
 
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Ynnead is an Eldar god, made from and for the Eldar. Like the Eldar, Ynnead will put the interests of the Eldar before anyone else. Even if humans worshiped Ynnead, that would not change.

The Emperor on the other hand is going to become a god of and for Humanity. He's also regarded as the Anathema by Chaos, which implies that as a god he might be particularly effective against Chaos, and I suspect that when he ascends he'll be a particularly potent god. And of course that's more likely to be the case if the Emperor is worshiped now, as the power from that worship will empower him and give him a supply of power to expend once he is reborn into godhood.

We can't be certain that souls currently worshiping the Emperor go to him on death or not at this point, but even if they don't the empowerment of the Emperor will better ensure the safety of all the souls that he'll be able to claim once his apotheosis is complete. The souls of those humans who died in the five to fifteen thousand years after his death might have get eaten by daemons, but in the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions, etc. of years to come? Those souls will be protected, and that's more likely if the Emperor is empowered better from the start. Furthermore, if he is actually able to start beating Chaos once he's actually playing at their level of power, then all the souls who might otherwise fall to Chaos will be protected.

Overall, it seems like a long game thing to me.
I don't think this a good argument on multiple levels. One we don't actually know that worship before he's born will actually empower him. Two worshipping the emperor is what led to the creation of the abomination in the first place so doing it again doesn't seem like a good idea. Three I don't see any particular reason to believe he's going to be effective enough to defeat the Chaos gods considering Ynnead was empowered on her start by literally trillions of Eldar sacrifices and still wasn't powerful enough to defeat Slaanesh, a little worship isn't going to be nearly as powerful as that, and Ynnead was created specifically to counter Slaanesh. Four, the emperor at his strongest only lasted ten thousand years or so going against Chaos, so expecting him to protect souls from daemons for hundreds of thousands or millions of years isn't particularly likely either.

Five, I don't see why anyone would worship a god that won't be able to help for thousands of years when they could worship a god that could help now, of which there are several. Ynnead is just one of several options, and quite frankly being a second priority for her is still better than nothing.

that's a bad idea. Escorts are not there to damage the enemy ships, they are there to soak fire. weapons divide their damage into ship categories, and almost everything* below BB wastes a decent percent of its fire on escorts, and most BB weapons have to burn through your cruisers to get at your super caps, something they will do faster with cruiserweight weapons helping rather than wasting time on escorts. Escorts also provide the bulk of a fleets AA. Any damage your escort screen does to the enemies escort screen is just gravy, they are there mostly to act as ablative armor for ships you care about and provide AA fire to chew through enemy strike fighters.

TLDR escorts are your fleets crumple zone. they die in droves to shield your cruisers that are the smallest ships that do actual damage.


*that lances don't do this seems to be on of their major benefits.
He's oversimplified. The real idea is to get rid of escorts and sink the resources spent on escorts on escort cruisers instead. Escort cruisers with fighter complements can provide more AA than even escorts via the fighter complement, survive for quite a lot longer, and split the way they count mass between escort and cruiser size categories allowing them to shield cruisers even more effectively.
ok, so I did some digging, and after a few missteps based on getting ship squadron sizes wrong, I think I've worked out the initial torpedo volley size from our one shot launches and it's pretty nasty. Also, we might want to look into leaning into grand cruisers, they seem to be in the sweet spot of big enough to mount lots of launches, but small enough you bring them in big numbers. they are providing most of our battleship sized torpedos by a fair amount.


looking at the navel sheet, I think that most of the damage is going to come from the BB torpedos. they have twice the damage of CR torpedos with a better pen, and more importantly target escorts less. the DR torps are super deadly, but we "only" have a thousand of those going out. the escort torps are mostly going into the enemies escort screen, but they have so many escorts I'm not sure how much that will do to ablate it. also, assuming the demon arks count as dreadnaughts, they are going to be eating 90 DR torps from the word go. if they don't have battle barge level armor that could mess em up pretty bad.
We already have a fairly balanced complement of grand cruisers, building a couple of them for every battleship is part of why we have so many. Honestly grand cruisers are better in Embers than lore would normally suggest they should be. Grand Cruisers are a bit under half the price of the low tier battleships, with around half the survivability, and under half the firepower. So they're a little tankier and a little less firepower for their price vs battleships. The torpedoes they mount half as many per ship so a little more per unit of cost, but I'm not sure that would be enough to make up for their lacking firepower over the course of a whole engagement.

I don't think the single shot launchers change the fleet balance needs much overall.
 
Except they have no armour. A BB has good odds of tanking more damage than its value in escorts while also being able to deal damage.

Saying we should keep Escorts in our fleet is like saying we should keep our PDF in regular armour so they can be meat-shields for the power-armoured Helguard.
The repair costs for our fleets would skyrocket, our shipyards would be overwhelmed with a growing list of ships needing maintenance after every minor engagement, getting rid of escorts is basically a slow form of suicide for the Trust.
 
I don't think this a good argument on multiple levels. One we don't actually know that worship before he's born will actually empower him. Two worshipping the emperor is what led to the creation of the abomination in the first place so doing it again doesn't seem like a good idea. Three I don't see any particular reason to believe he's going to be effective enough to defeat the Chaos gods considering Ynnead was empowered on her start by literally trillions of Eldar sacrifices and still wasn't powerful enough to defeat Slaanesh, a little worship isn't going to be nearly as powerful as that, and Ynnead was created specifically to counter Slaanesh. Four, the emperor at his strongest only lasted ten thousand years or so going against Chaos, so expecting him to protect souls from daemons for hundreds of thousands or millions of years isn't particularly likely either.

Five, I don't see why anyone would worship a god that won't be able to help for thousands of years when they could worship a god that could help now, of which there are several. Ynnead is just one of several options, and quite frankly being a second priority for her is still better than nothing.

1. Lin might know, but even if it's not known it's still a possibility that should be accounted for.
2. The creation of the Abomination wasn't the result of only worship. It was the result of galaxy wide tyranny, oppression, and general asshattery, with the worship of the Emperor the lens all that was focused on. Those problems have been curtailed within the Trust - not doing so would have caused us to fall the the Abomination already.
3. Even if he's not going to be effective enough to defeat them, he'll still provide humanity with protection and a method of cleansing corruption.
4. The Emperor was a corpse kept barely alive by the most advanced life support system in existence, and still ultimately a man. Once he returns, he will be an actual god. He will be significantly more powerful than before.
5. You're presuming faith is something rational. It's not. The people of the Trust have been taught that they should worship the Emperor, and that doing so is what will be best for humanity. To expect them to abandon the faith that they've been fighting for is unrealistic. They have faith. They're not just going to drop it.
 
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1. Lin might know, but even if it's not known it's still a possibility that should be accounted for.
2. The creation of the Abomination wasn't the result of only worship. It was the result of galaxy wide tyranny, oppression, and general asshattery, with the worship of the Emperor the lens all that was focused on. Those problems have been curtailed within the Trust - not doing so would have caused us to fall the the Abomination already.
3. Even if he's not going to be effective enough to defeat them, he'll still provide humanity with
4. The Emperor was a corpse kept barely alive by the most advanced life support system in existence, and still ultimately a man. Once he returns, he will be an actual god. He will be significantly more powerful than before.
5. You're presuming faith is something rational. It's not. The people of the Trust have been taught that they should worship the Emperor, and that doing so is what will be best for humanity. To expect them to abandon the faith that they've been fighting for is unrealistic. They have faith. They're not just going to drop it.
I think you make some good points....but I think your line number (3) is incomplete.
 
1. Lin might know, but even if it's not known it's still a possibility that should be accounted for.
2. The creation of the Abomination wasn't the result of only worship. It was the result of galaxy wide tyranny, oppression, and general asshattery, with the worship of the Emperor the lens all that was focused on. Those problems have been curtailed within the Trust - not doing so would have caused us to fall the the Abomination already.
3. Even if he's not going to be effective enough to defeat them, he'll still provide humanity with
4. The Emperor was a corpse kept barely alive by the most advanced life support system in existence, and still ultimately a man. Once he returns, he will be an actual god. He will be significantly more powerful than before.
5. You're presuming faith is something rational. It's not. The people of the Trust have been taught that they should worship the Emperor, and that doing so is what will be best for humanity. To expect them to abandon the faith that they've been fighting for is unrealistic. They have faith. They're not just going to drop it.
1. Lin might also know that it's not true by that standard.
2. Those problems have been curtailed for now and in the Trust. The Imperium didn't start out a galaxy wide oppressive asshole tyranny either. We have thousands of years in which to fall to asshattery.
3. Much of your argument was predicated on him being strong enough to defeat them, which I see as incredibly unlikely.
4. He wasn't always barely kept alive. Chaos defeating him at the pinnacle of his power was how he was crippled in the first place. Also I don't think it likely he was "ultimately a man" in the first place given he was a gestalt fusion of many shamans throughout history.
5. That's not really an applicable argument in this context. This argument is about whether worshipping the emperor or Ynnead would be better, not about the difficulties of switching. Certainly switching would be quite high difficulty, but that doesn't mean that worshipping Ynnead wouldn't be better in the end result. Though even if we ignore that, what people are taught is something we can control, and we could gradually change the education. Over centuries you can utterly remodel a society through gradual shifts in propaganda which individually aren't very noticed.
 
5. That's not really an applicable argument in this context. This argument is about whether worshipping the emperor or Ynnead would be better, not about the difficulties of switching. Certainly switching would be quite high difficulty, but that doesn't mean that worshipping Ynnead wouldn't be better in the end result. Though even if we ignore that, what people are taught is something we can control, and we could gradually change the education. Over centuries you can utterly remodel a society through gradual shifts in propaganda which individually aren't very noticed.

Leaving aside the other points because I don't expect we'll agree, you literally said "Five, I don't see why anyone would worship a god that won't be able to help for thousands of years when they could worship a god that could help now, of which there are several." I gave you the reason for someone worshiping a god that couldn't help - faith. Again, it's not a rational thing. Don't move the goalposts like that.

But if you want to mention it, switching wouldn't be possible for us to push. It wouldn't be in character for Rotbart. He's been a devout worshiper of the Emperor his entire life, and he's not even remotely having a crisis of faith. I honestly can't see Durin even allowing it.
 
He's oversimplified. The real idea is to get rid of escorts and sink the resources spent on escorts on escort cruisers instead. Escort cruisers with fighter complements can provide more AA than even escorts via the fighter complement, survive for quite a lot longer, and split the way they count mass between escort and cruiser size categories allowing them to shield cruisers even more effectively.

ah, ok yeah. I could see switching over to escort cruisers. They draw fire like escorts so they serve the same meatshield purpose while having a lot more survivability and being able to actually shoot things. Though we'd have to work out the ratio of how many escort cruisers we could have instead of our escort squadrons.

edit: going by just yard time, calculating slip years ( number of slips multiplied by time) an escort takes 3 slip years, and an escort cruiser takes 21. so we'd be getting a seventh the screening ships, but they would be much better. a monk has a bit more than twice the hp of a frigate, and a bit less than twice the armor. AA is a steep loss, though it does bring in more strike fighters. hmmm, this sounds like something we'd want to wargame out to test.
 
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So what you guys arguing about worshipping a new god that's cool. I say the trust should worship someone who cares about you and tries to deal with those spiders.
 
Well, my two cents is that we should stick to Emps-worship for essentially the reasons Enjou outlined.

I've always been of the opinion that the 'feat' of Horus-backed-by-Chaos essentially one-shotting Emps isn't really a good indicator of his strength, since a) he was holding back because of the whole 'I actually care if my favorite son dies.' thing Sanguinis getting offed triggered, b) he was doing a bunch of other stuff like keeping the planet from falling into the Warp, which means he wasn't exactly operating at 100% to begin with, and c) even if you don't think the above two points are valid, he put Horus into essentially the same state Horus put him in the second he actually started attacking, and then obliterated his soul so thoroughly even Chaos couldn't un-kill him. So, if nothing else, I think having Emps as an allied god will be a major advantage.
 
Leaving aside the other points because I don't expect we'll agree, you literally said "Five, I don't see why anyone would worship a god that won't be able to help for thousands of years when they could worship a god that could help now, of which there are several." I gave you the reason for someone worshiping a god that couldn't help - faith. Again, it's not a rational thing. Don't move the goalposts like that.

But if you want to mention it, switching wouldn't be possible for us to push. It wouldn't be in character for Rotbart. He's been a devout worshiper of the Emperor his entire life, and he's not even remotely having a crisis of faith. I honestly can't see Durin even allowing it.
It's not moving the goalposts. The entire argument is about whether Ynnead would be a better god to worship, not whether it's practical to switch right now.

Faith is only a significant factor in religion because there are no gods giving actual divine gifts. I'm not sure our language would even have a word comparable in meaning to it in a world where gods actually acted. Faith is irrational, but that's because gods don't have any proof of existence in our world. In a world where gods do stuff all the time, worship isn't faith, and it's not irrational at all.

I don't think faith should even exist in 40k except maybe as an ancient term from pre-warp humanity in some long forgotten texts.

Humans who worshipped the emperor in the days of the Imperium didn't have faith. They had actual knowledge that he existed and enabled their existence by the Astronomican if nothing else. With him dying the vast majority of humans that worshipped him ceased to do so, likely because it wasn't faith in the first place. It was an exchange of worship for divine power.

I've always been of the opinion that the 'feat' of Horus-backed-by-Chaos essentially one-shotting Emps isn't really a good indicator of his strength, since a) he was holding back because of the whole 'I actually care if my favorite son dies.' thing Sanguinis getting offed triggered, b) he was doing a bunch of other stuff like keeping the planet from falling into the Warp, which means he wasn't exactly operating at 100% to begin with, and c) even if you don't think the above two points are valid, he put Horus into essentially the same state Horus put him in the second he actually started attacking, and then obliterated his soul so thoroughly even Chaos couldn't un-kill him. So, if nothing else, I think having Emps as an allied god will be a major advantage.
That was defeating a Chaos Champion, not a Chaos God. Those are very very different things.
 
1. Lin might also know that it's not true by that standard.
2. Those problems have been curtailed for now and in the Trust. The Imperium didn't start out a galaxy wide oppressive asshole tyranny either. We have thousands of years in which to fall to asshattery.
3. Much of your argument was predicated on him being strong enough to defeat them, which I see as incredibly unlikely.
4. He wasn't always barely kept alive. Chaos defeating him at the pinnacle of his power was how he was crippled in the first place. Also I don't think it likely he was "ultimately a man" in the first place given he was a gestalt fusion of many shamans throughout history.
Not really getting into the over all argument, but

1. So far Lin's knowledge has been entirely accurate. Until he's been proved wrong if he says nah I'm fine with it for now.
2. Nah the Imperium was always asshatty. The sheer level of egregious oppression was slightly lower around the GC, but it was still egregious and oppressive.
3. Well it doesn't look like there is a way for anyone or anything that isn't named Mag'ladroth or Gork and Mork to beat Chaos 1vs1 and if they were to go for each other...well I don't think there'd be much of a galaxy left after that. Optimistically Emp's return probably doesn't mean chaos punch face, but some other means of dealing with them.
4. He also wasn't always being sacrificed 10,000 psykers everyday or having the combined worship of the galaxy spanning imperium focused on him. As for chaos defeating him...eh see below. Though at the end of the day emp's humanity (and lack there of) is what got him gibbed in the end.


I've always been of the opinion that the 'feat' of Horus-backed-by-Chaos essentially one-shotting Emps isn't really a good indicator of his strength, since a) he was holding back because of the whole 'I actually care if my favorite son dies.' thing Sanguinis getting offed triggered, b) he was doing a bunch of other stuff like keeping the planet from falling into the Warp, which means he wasn't exactly operating at 100% to begin with, and c) even if you don't think the above two points are valid, he put Horus into essentially the same state Horus put him in the second he actually started attacking, and then obliterated his soul so thoroughly even Chaos couldn't un-kill him. So, if nothing else, I think having Emps as an allied god will be a major advantage.
Eh it kind of is, though to explain.

Basically the fact that instead of confronting Emps himself and instead worked through a proxy like Horus basically says that regardless of the fact that he was significantly weaker than them his strength was enough to cause them real harm if they went for him directly.

Even then as you said that the second he decided to go all out he was able to bring down Horus nearly instantly, despite the fact that Chaos had infused themselves into him despite being mortally wounded and at the same time powering the astronomicon and (critically) keeping the Dragon asleep.

So what you guys arguing about worshipping a new god that's cool. I say the trust should worship someone who cares about you and tries to deal with those spiders.
Worship Mother Isha :D

Humans who worshipped the emperor in the days of the Imperium didn't have faith. They had actual knowledge that he existed and enabled their existence by the Astronomican if nothing else. With him dying the vast majority of humans that worshipped him ceased to do so, likely because it wasn't faith in the first place. It was an exchange of worship for divine power.
Nah not really.

Take the Dragon's nest that continue to worship emps despite acknowledging that he was dead.

The faith in the Emperor was just that real faith. Most of the unwashed masses of humanity didn't know what the Astronomicon was, that's just words to them. Almost all would live and die short, unhappy painful lives painfully bound to the planet, but they had faith in a man sacrificing himself upon a golden throne in the same way a peasant in medieval europe dutifully comes to church every sunday to worship a man who died on the cross, because they truly believe that he could save them regardless of proof, or lack there of and that has continued even after his death.

It wasn't just a transaction of faith, it was a real faith. Too real in fact as it turned to zealotry.

That was defeating a Chaos Champion, not a Chaos God. Those are very very different things.
Horus is weird.

In canon he goes to Moltarch and receives the same power as emps, in this quest as I understand each chaos god infuses part of themselves into him on a fundamental level to give him the strength needed.

Either way chaos gives him a vast amount of power and when Emps is brought to the state they want and finally retaliates they abandon Horus shortly after.
 
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As much as I like the idea of worship as a transaction, that's not how the trust worships. They don't worship big E because they shopped around and he's the best god, they worshiped big E because they have faith in him. Sides, when he comes back he's likely going to be a fairly strong god with a type advantage over chaos. possibly, if we're lucky, enough to take out one of the five when he's on his initial power high.
 
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I think the trust is suppose to be a back up plan of the Emperor. Where the trust create a religious god and than the Emperor well eats the religious god gaining a power boost. Because it is thousands of years before he comes back but any god that is created will be protected somewhat by Avernus.
 
I really doubt the Truth is intended to create a religious god. Leaving a shitload of faith lying around unclaimed is pointlessly risky, especially as Emps had at least a fair idea of what sort of god the Abomination was.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the power from our worship right now is either helping Emps reform as a god faster or is being stockpiled while still being 'his' for his return. There might also be some shenanigans happening with Lin's sainthood and it, serving either as a mechanism to get said faith to Emps when Lin dies or allowing Lin to access some fraction of the power accumulated in the proper circumstances.

As far as worshiping other gods goes, IC there is zero chance that it's happening without Lin's explicit approval. OOC I'd still favor a fairly hard line adherence to what was set forth in the Truth as well—while the minor advantages the smaller gods can give worshipers would be nice, there's still a LOT about the divine we don't know. Worse, as mentioned the minor gods live at the sufferance of the major gods, and there are several major gods with at least a passing interest in us.

Worshiping existing major gods just seems like a poor plan overall. Effectively the only existing major gods that are not inherently hostile are the remaining Eldar gods. While they like us enough that they're probably not going to screw us intentionally, I do not like the idea of betting on a god where we're second class citizens—at least not with full-out faith and worship. A transactional relationship could work, but given how gods are powered it'd probably end up being like trade with the Sirens pre-cultists—we have practically nothing they are even remotely interested in trading for.

And no, no sacrificing souls for the Xeno gods. Just no.
 
I really doubt the Truth is intended to create a religious god. Leaving a shitload of faith lying around unclaimed is pointlessly risky, especially as Emps had at least a fair idea of what sort of god the Abomination was.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the power from our worship right now is either helping Emps reform as a god faster or is being stockpiled while still being 'his' for his return. There might also be some shenanigans happening with Lin's sainthood and it, serving either as a mechanism to get said faith to Emps when Lin dies or allowing Lin to access some fraction of the power accumulated in the proper circumstances.

Agreed, especially considering that Religious Gods can be changed through the influence of their followers - a nominally good god could become a bad one due to a cultural shift among their followers, which is something the Emperor wouldn't want to risk.

Though the biggest purpose of having sane human polities that were prepared for the Second Age of Strife was to ensure that humanity would have at least one bastion from which the Emperor could build a new Imperium most likely. Worship being part of that would be useful, though.
 
Hum, but being aware of the 'correct' ceremonies, materials and knowledge probably could help? Even if a little bit. Since they would 'resonance' with the emperor better?
 
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