That might cause mass panic. The implication is: 'your soul will get eaten by Chaos unless we use this rare xeno-tech to save you'. Most people will not get souls stones, but the fact that the higher-ups are implies that they believe human souls are daemon fodder, which is by no means the consensus in the Imperial Trust. We have been very carefully not researching the matter.
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
That might cause mass panic. The implication is: 'your soul will get eaten by Chaos unless we use this rare xeno-tech to save you'. Most people will not get souls stones, but the fact that the higher-ups are implies that they believe human souls are daemon fodder, which is by no means the consensus in the Imperial Trust. We have been very carefully not researching the matter.
- Location
- madison
Well, not daemon fodder, they probably just dissolve into warp. Only exceptional people that are able to maintain their soul's coherency are at risk.
- Location
- The United States
Perhaps then it would be worthwhile to use a hypothetical human soul stones only on our heroes. Maybe we could even find a means of communicating with them and making use of their abilities after their deaths.
Even in death I still serve ya know?
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Perhaps instead we should...ya know ask them to crush Turoq for us...
That'd solve a lot of problems no?
That'd solve a lot of problems no?
Better idea - local Webway access so we can deal with enemies when needed. Our big problem with our local foes is our inability to easily strike back.
- Location
- madison
or psychic research assistance. The equivalent of another action or two for doing psyker research would be kind of amazing. but i'm a bit on the fence if we should risk it. ridicully is kind of a linchpin. Losing hims would be a huge blow, and that seems to be the most likely outcome here.
- Location
- Back in Cali
The webway is damaged that's why they don't want to let too many others use it.
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- Location
- The United States
Do we know if the Eldar are capable of this?
If they do end up saving Isha eventually than I definitely think they should be able to.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
We'd need Isha to do that.
Not without Isha.
Hence why we would need to burn a favor to get access.
- Location
- Spain
One thing @Durin since I´m 99.99% sure that the Eldar´s objective of this is to have Cegorach and Ynnead rescue Isha.
1 If Saint Lin figures out the nature of these Eldar deities (especially Isha), would that increase the chance of Sucess or Ridcully and the Throne of Nurgle?
2 What about a great divination of both Nurgle and Isha?
1 If Saint Lin figures out the nature of these Eldar deities (especially Isha), would that increase the chance of Sucess or Ridcully and the Throne of Nurgle?
2 What about a great divination of both Nurgle and Isha?
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Divining a God is what we're doing...so I get the feeling that we'd just do the action earlier without eldar help...
And Isha is in Nurgle's throne...
- Location
- Spain
I meant a much more general divination of Nurgle and Isha, not to try to enter his Sancta Sanctorum and spy him...
- Location
- Australia
That thing about Chaos doesn't make sense. Clones have the same DNA but they're different people. They'd be vulnerable to a targeted bio-weapon but they wouldn't have some specific "soul blueprint" that Chaos could exploit, not unless they were raised to be pretty much the same person but being a clone wouldn't be a factor in that regard.
As for the tendency for clones to be inferior, especially at that rate, I call bullshit. In Embers, what matters most is not your bloodline, but who raises you. That's why Jacob was so powerful despite not having any blood relation to Jane. The reason why Syr is so great at war-making isn't because she's our biological daughter, it's because we raised her as our daughter. If the clone of a mediocre figure is raised by a Hero, the clone would almost always far outstrip their genetic progenitor.
Additionally, we have the Sarens to provide proof that being a clone does not result in an inferiority rate that great. Both of them were heroes. If your rate was correct, the chance that two clones of the guy the Sarens were cloned from would both be hero-tier would be infinitesimally small. It's far more likely that them being clones didn't factor into their potential to become heroes.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Well that gets us nothing because the sancta sanctorum is surrounded by divine level wards...the kind Ridcully cannot see through.
We would get no pertinent information to making the spying easier, and nothing on Isha at all.
This was Durin's response to why cloning and mass hypo indoctrination ends badly.
Of course its reasonable to assume they would not be subjected to identical indoctrination nor of the same brainwashing intensity the Imperium was so fond of, but they would be physically identical and raised in highly similar conditions expected to perform to similar standards and achieve similar things, which increases their vulnerability and would make them more similar to each other no, whether or not it was intentional.
Clones naturally get -1 to piety, statistically making them inferior on a base statistical level, but nothing that cannot be overcome, after all as you state bloodline isn't what's important training is.
However, not all clones are going to either get the opportunities or due to the warp just won't be as good as each other, if you clone one person a hundred times one of those clones will end up as a Saren (though given that neither of them were especially great) and Pallidus (also a clone, but probably a better example), but the majority of them will end up like Tranth's clones. Perfectly skilled, but when was the last time we heard about any of them?
Knowing this I do not think they would have attempted to mass clone Akadia 1 and would have continued her bloodline through other means (cloning included.)
Regardless since there are literal millions of Lethe's in Callamus, but I'd be very surprised if more than a handful meet the standards for heroes, clones or no clones.
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- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Here's a thought. They started with a thousand or so Lethians, and those clones had kids the normal way, by and large, and the most successful of the Lethians' kids were cloned and something similar happened. A long-term method to kinda mass produce heroes.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Not really how it works, but kinda.
- Location
- Australia
I never said anything about hypnoindoctrination, and neither did you. You said that it was cloning that makes clones vulnerable to Chaos in the same way. The source you cited made it very clear that it's hypnoindoctrination that makes them vulnerable to Chaos in the same way, which lines up with my "unless they were raised to be pretty much the same person".
Cloning only makes clones more vulnerable in that it gives them -1 Piety. That's it. It doesn't create the potential for a corruption blueprint like mass hypnoindoctrination does.
Being physically identical doesn't really seem like it'd be a problem to me. None of the clones we've seen so far in Embers seem to think of themselves as "being the others/the progenitor". They all think of themselves as their own individual people. Put it down to culture or human nature or both, but we don't have to worry about clones thinking of themselves as anything but their own individual people.
Being raised in highly similar conditions similarly wouldn't matter. Sometimes, siblings in families are raised in highly similar conditions at home and then go to the same school. They still retain their individuality.
The clones would not be expected to perform to similar standards and achieve similar things. That's only an expectation that a culture that's new to cloning would have. The Adeptus Mechanicus, who's been cloning people for over ten thousand years, would know that clones often don't perform to the same standards and achieve the same things as their progenitors, because they're their own people. Akadia's clones would be given exceptional education and so be expected to achieve great things, but only because of the aforementioned exceptional education, not because they're clones of Akadia Lethe.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
The quote makes it quite clear that mass producing a single person via cloning is also part of the process its put before the hypnoindoctrination.
I never said they'd loose their individuality, only that they'd gain similar characteristics, ones that could easily be exploited by chaos.
You're kinda right, but not for the reason you're thinking.
40K clones have stigma around them because usually they're considered unlucky. Given the -1 piety this has a practical effect and need I bring up the Afriel Strain. In addition its an expectation that those familiar with cloning would have. But to the uneducated Magos Militant whose not done a day of cloning in their life they're not going to have the same expectations. There isn't a "culture of cloning" in the admech that would give them the institutional knowledge to not place expectations on the clones of someone important.
While Ridicully possible dying is incredible dangerous and sad but we did have other things. Such as the Admech have gone even more progressive. Which is a big win. But Durin confirmed that the new Asgard governor is conservative. 
So we are going to have to spend lot of goodwill to pass the things we want. Such as what is more important to us.
So we are going to have to spend lot of goodwill to pass the things we want. Such as what is more important to us.
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- Location
- To the left. No, not there, the other left.
Lethians are not a way to mass-produce heroes, they're a way to mass produce super-elites. The main reason the whole program was started was to take advantage of Akadia's unique genetic trait that made her extremely compatible with bio-augmentation. This, combined with the fact that even if most of the clones are nowhere near the original they still tend to possess at least above average inteligence and abilities, means that Lethians are probably the best mass-producible supersoldiers humanity has created since Astartes. The fact that some of them may become good enough to be a hero is just a nice bonus.
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