The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
so here's to hoping our assassin boys were able to keep theirs at bay...and maybe counter-shit some of their shenanigans...

please success-crit rolls be with us!!! even general successes would be great to have!
 
Maybe is a daemon focus in psyker power s? There must be a reason since the hypocrite chaos want the saint dead so is the demon summoned is a paragon (s) of demology and etc?
 
Note that Xavier and friends killed two Greater Daemons straight-out with a roll that had roughly 1/4th of the power. And that roll only managed to reach the level that it did because the defense was critfailed, quadrupling the power.

There are two problems with the number, coming at it from different angles.

1. The number itself is anomalously large. It's four times larger than the next highest example, and that example had been quadrupled by a crit.
2. It doesn't have as large an effect relative to its size. The Null Zone has a similar effect on the Archangyl, despite being two orders of magnitude smaller. Xavier kills two Archangyls flat-out with a power that's about 1/4th as powerful, in addition to killing tens of thousands of other Angyls. The killed Archangyls are about 1/3rd as powerful as the Third Sphere Archangyl. (If he kills 2/3rds of a 3rd Sphere at 1/4th the value, then at the full value he'd kill 2.67 3rd Spheres, even setting aside that he killed nearly 100,000 Angyls with that attack.)


There are a number of problems with this equation. First, you need to label things, and explain how one step leads to the other. (I'm reasonably sure that Durin hasn't posted his math for determining how effective a power is. I'm almost certain he hasn't put it into a threadmarked post.) Finally, you need to show that this equation holds true for psychic powers in general, rather than just this one in particular. Texas Sharpshooter fallacy and all that.
This has to do with how the combat system works. The roll you're seeing is effectively the circumstantial bonuses and how well executed the power was. Each degree of success (against the opposed roll) increases the damage done by a set percent, stacking multiplicatively. Which means that the total power percentage/kills ramps exponentially in the degree of success.

Then there's how much baseline damage/toughness a given unit has (or exactly what a power does, or the skill level of the troops). This is the number that gets multiplied by the power percentage to calculate total damage done, and isn't immediately obvious to us for psyker things.
 
I'd say our best bet it to summon up a psychic storm. If we roll well, it'll take out their ability to summon the Archangyl and only cost us 10% of our psykers.
And if we roll badly we can get things like all our psykers dying and summoning the 1st Circle by accident.

Garkill, btw, did about the same thing in his third war, doing a megachoir to blast our walls apart.
Note that Xavier and friends killed two Greater Daemons straight-out with a roll that had roughly 1/4th of the power. And that roll only managed to reach the level that it did because the defense was critfailed, quadrupling the power.

There are two problems with the number, coming at it from different angles.

1. The number itself is anomalously large. It's four times larger than the next highest example, and that example had been quadrupled by a crit.
2. It doesn't have as large an effect relative to its size. The Null Zone has a similar effect on the Archangyl, despite being two orders of magnitude smaller. Xavier kills two Archangyls flat-out with a power that's about 1/4th as powerful, in addition to killing tens of thousands of other Angyls. The killed Archangyls are about 1/3rd as powerful as the Third Sphere Archangyl. (If he kills 2/3rds of a 3rd Sphere at 1/4th the value, then at the full value he'd kill 2.67 3rd Spheres, even setting aside that he killed nearly 100,000 Angyls with that attack.)


There are a number of problems with this equation. First, you need to label things, and explain how one step leads to the other. (I'm reasonably sure that Durin hasn't posted his math for determining how effective a power is. I'm almost certain he hasn't put it into a threadmarked post.) Finally, you need to show that this equation holds true for psychic powers in general, rather than just this one in particular. Texas Sharpshooter fallacy and all that.
The psychic power rules are an obscure black box, subject to change on Durin's balancing notes.
 
And if we roll badly we can get things like all our psykers dying and summoning the 1st Circle by accident.
A bad roll only has 50% of our psykers dying. The only thing that could result in all our psykers dying and the First Circle getting summoned is if we crit-fail, i.e. if we roll a nat 1. I don't think we should factor in the possibility of a nat 1 into anything we do.
 
I think it's a decent last-ditch move, but we'd be much better off using more conventional means to prevent the summoning. Our psykers are valuable after all, and while it would almost certainly fuck the summoning no matter what precautions they take we've shown a capability to handle their precautions without resorting to drastic measures.
 
A bad roll only has 50% of our psykers dying. The only thing that could result in all our psykers dying and the First Circle getting summoned is if we crit-fail, i.e. if we roll a nat 1. I don't think we should factor in the possibility of a nat 1 into anything we do.
Normally I'd agree, but we just burnt a shit ton of favour with the luck gods.

For now I'm divided on splitting our attention between scrying and frying the sorcerers, or dealing with the assassins.
 
Normally I'd agree, but we just burnt a shit ton of favour with the luck gods.

For now I'm divided on splitting our attention between scrying and frying the sorcerers, or dealing with the assassins.
Assassins we have extremely strong conventional defenses against, sorcerers we don't.

Plus, the more sorcerers we kill, the less effective they're going to be at stopping us from killing other sorcerers/assassins.
 
A bad roll only has 50% of our psykers dying. The only thing that could result in all our psykers dying and the First Circle getting summoned is if we crit-fail, i.e. if we roll a nat 1. I don't think we should factor in the possibility of a nat 1 into anything we do.
'Only'

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If you don't mind, if I was going to trade hundreds of thousands of psykers, our reputation among psykers, and more risks besides like a potential game over or billions of our own people dying for a something, that something had better be super fucking valuable, and not 'A fancy, cool-looking storm that inflicts a nice amount of casualties'.
 
'Only'

Only

Only

If you don't mind, if I was going to trade hundreds of thousands of psykers, our reputation among psykers, and more risks besides like a potential game over or billions of our own people dying for a something, that something had better be super fucking valuable, and not 'A fancy, cool-looking storm that inflicts a nice amount of casualties'.
Adding on to this, how would Avernus react to Frederick demanding a warp storm to be summoned? Feels like it would go against the Third Law of Avernus; for every action, there's an equal, and opposite overreaction.
 
'Only'

Only

Only

If you don't mind, if I was going to trade hundreds of thousands of psykers, our reputation among psykers, and more risks besides like a potential game over or billions of our own people dying for a something, that something had better be super fucking valuable, and not 'A fancy, cool-looking storm that inflicts a nice amount of casualties'.
We're talking about an Exalted Greater Daemon - something that even Primarchs could lose against, such as Sanguinius when he fought Ka'Bandha the first time. None of our defences are sufficient to withstand a telepathic attack from it. We would be near guaranteed to lose heroes to death or corruption, millions or even billions of our regular citizenry would fall to Chaos or die, and worse still would be many our psykers falling to Chaos. A full blown daemonic incursion could occur from within our city walls if that happens. I consider preventing all that to be, as you would put it, "super fucking valuable".

So please, don't trivialise my suggestion's goals as being to merely inflict some casualties.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not even saying we should summon up a psychic storm. All I'm saying is that it's a valid tactic worthy of consideration. At the moment I think we should just have our daemonologists mess up the summoning while we Scry and Fry.
 
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We're talking about an Exalted Greater Daemon - something that even Primarchs could lose against, such as Sanguinius when he fought Ka'Bandha the first time. None of our defences are sufficient to withstand a telepathic attack from it. We would be near guaranteed to lose heroes to death or corruption, millions or even billions of our regular citizenry would fall to Chaos or die, and worse still would be many our psykers falling to Chaos. A full blown daemonic incursion could occur from within our city walls if that happens. I consider preventing all that to be, as you would put it, "super fucking valuable".

So please, don't trivialise my suggestion's goals as being to merely inflict some casualties. It's insulting and borderline arguing in bad faith.
Okay. Please explain to me how a psychic storm will prevent the Abomination from summoning the 1st Circle Angyl. As opposed to inflicting a nice amount of casualties, seeing as unless you wipe out pretty much all their sorcerers of Master+ grade, they can just keep trying again. Also, the fact that said psychic storm attempt has a nontrivial probability of making Avernus pissed at us or summoning the very daemon you're trying to prevent the summoning of.

Now, compare that to, say, any of the following actions:

1) Sallying out in the billions to crush the ritual while Daemonologists stall the summoning.
2) Sending in a super-strike team consisting of all our heroes and Primaris to squash the ritual.
3) Nuking the summoning place with enough Deathstrikes to force the Sorcerers to Teleport away.
 
seeing as unless you wipe out pretty much all their sorcerers of Master+ grade, they can just keep trying again.
What exactly do you think the storm is meant to accomplish? Its purpose is to take out a target that's otherwise too big or well-defended to take out conventionally, such as the Mass Conveyor where they plan to summon the First Circle.

Also, the fact that said psychic storm attempt has a nontrivial probability of making Avernus pissed at us or summoning the very daemon you're trying to prevent the summoning of.
There is a rerollable 1% chance that it could summon the daemon. That is the very definition of trivial.

Now, compare that to, say, any of the following actions:

1) Sallying out in the billions to crush the ritual while Daemonologists stall the summoning.
2) Sending in a super-strike team consisting of all our heroes and Primaris to squash the ritual.
3) Nuking the summoning place with enough Deathstrikes to force the Sorcerers to Teleport away.
1. There's no way we can get our ground troops onto the Mass Conveyor they're summoning the First Circle from in such numbers.
2. This could work.
3. Deathstrikes are too weak to threaten a Mass Conveyor.

As I included in the edit to my previous post, I also rather like the idea of Scry and Fry while our daemonologists stall.
 
What exactly do you think the storm is meant to accomplish? Its purpose is to take out a target that's otherwise too big or well-defended to take out conventionally, such as the Mass Conveyor where they plan to summon the First Circle.
It's a storm, not a laser beam. It's not a targeted thing to eliminate a small selection targets, a storm by it's very nature is dispersed over a large area, making it unlikely to be sufficient to kill a heavily warded ritual site.
There is a rerollable 1% chance that it could summon the daemon. That is the very definition of trivial.
Ridcully only has a 50-50 chance of rerollign Natural 1s. Are you willing to bet the entire quest a single die roll?
1. There's no way we can get our ground troops onto the Mass Conveyor they're summoning the First Circle from in such numbers.
2. This could work.
3. Deathstrikes are too weak to threaten a Mass Conveyor.

As I included in the edit to my previous post, I also rather like the idea of Scry and Fry while our daemonologists stall.
If they summon it in space, our desperation moves can include things like 'Ram the offending ship with a Command Battleship'.
 
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It's a storm, not a laser beam. It's not a targeted thing to eliminate a small selection targets, a storm by it's very nature is dispersed over a large area, making it unlikely to be sufficient to kill a heavily warded ritual site.
Durin said it's enough to disrupt Battle Barge kamikazes with a good roll, which I would think translates well to murdering significantly more fragile (psychically and otherwise) Mass Conveyors. But fine, it can be a beam if you want. The details don't really matter so much as the general intent of "Grand Choir kills an MC" gets through.

Ridcully only has a 50-50 chance of rerollign Natural 1s. Are you willing to bet the entire quest a single die roll?
This is Warhammer 40,000. There is a device that can save humanity but has a 50% chance of dooming it, yet its activation is being considered because things are just that bad for humanity. We must accept that we will have to take these kinds of risks. In this case, our chance of survival in the case of a Grand Choir attack is 99+%. I think the odds of our survival if they summon the First Circle to be less than that. (Nitpick: It would be a minimum of two die rolls.)
 
I am of the opinion that Grand Choir-ing away the Summoning Ritual is Not A Good Idea, and something we should only consider as a last resort, if that. Or Grand Choirs in general, actually, until we find a way to patch choir stability up.
 
We have a replaceable asset that might well be able to stop the ritual. The Folkvangr and the rest of our heavy ships. If we get out fleet into position to attack and destroy the particular mass conveyor while the ritual is in progress we will stop the ritual for now, and potentially kill enough of the sorcerers to stop it indefinitely.

The cost is great but I value half our psykers more than our fleet. Might be a sensible trade for us to make.

@Durin
1. Is this viable?
2. Can we apply our/sarnows martial to it without leading it ourselves
3. Following the destruction of the mass conveyor supposing some of our ships survive, would it be viable to board some of the enemy battleships and attempt to destroy them?
4. Alternatively, would it be viable to focus on destroying the rest of their mass conveyors?
 
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Gonna be tough getting to their mass conveyor if we try to stop a summoning in orbit, the crusade has no reason not to ram our ships with everything they have if it looks like our fleet is closing in to attack. They still massively outnumber us and can suicide rush our whole fleet, even our flagship wont be able to push through being rammed by half a dozen battleships one after the other.
 
Gonna be tough getting to their mass conveyor if we try to stop a summoning in orbit, the crusade has no reason not to ram our ships with everything they have if it looks like our fleet is closing in to attack. They still massively outnumber us and can suicide rush our whole fleet, even our flagship wont be able to push through being rammed by half a dozen battleships one after the other.
+ even if they throw one of their BB at us, there's still three of them left.
 
I'm not terribly worried about them trying to summon the First Circle in orbit - given that the thing would be powerful enough to start an incursion, I expect the planet would be proactive in trying to stop it and activate the defenses and having the anti-orbital Weapons like Sun Beetles start firing. It quite possibly allowed the summoning of the Third Circle and only intervened afterwards because it knew we had a good shot at permakilling it.
 
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